Should the Burkini be banned?

First topic message reminder :

I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable on the beach, and the most ridiculous garment.

Is M & S wrong for selling it?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3519932/Bin-burkini-M-S-launches-UK-burkini-Muslim-writer-YASMIN-ALIBHAI-BROWN-says-insidious-Islamification-fashion-terrible-blow-women.html

sassy wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I love the curiosity. It's why Islam is spreading. So I would never knock the curious.

Islam is spreading?  

It is:  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/23/why-Muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/

Only if 'Irreligion' is not counted as a religion
we are just least successful in coveting from Muslims that is all we are taking more from all the other religions making them grow slower
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion
we will get to Islam soon

According to Pew Research Center's 2012 global study of 230 countries and territories, 16% of the world's population is not affiliated with a religion, while 84% are affiliated.[13] Several other polls on the subject have been conducted by Gallup International: their 2012 poll from 57 countries reported that 59% of the world's population identified as religious, 23% as not religious, 13% as "convinced atheists", and also a 9% decrease in identification as "religious" when compared to the 2005 average from 39 countries.[14] Their follow up poll in 2015 found that 63% of the globe identified as religious, 22% as not religious, and 11% as "convinced atheists

Perhaps we should ban all swimwear and skinny dip instead?

sassy wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Islam is spreading?  

It is:  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/23/why-Muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/

Well there is many reasons for this
There is a censorship and laws that deny for an open society on other faiths and atheism in many Muslim majority nations
High birth rates and children and people born into societies where they will have little to no option of other faiths and non-faiths.
In the west its non-belief that dwarfs all others as the fastest growing group in numbers.
You see Muslim majority countries stifle and ban many secular doctrines and even worse ban science like evolution.
Its the worst abuse of educational rights for people and is denying people to chose for themselves, where instead geography and high birth rates is the only reasons for this rise in Muslim numbers. If like the west these nations allowed for the teachings of all beliefs and to also decriminalize apostasy, would see Muslim numbers diminish dramatically as they have in the west within 2 generations.
Muslim majority nations, deny freedom of thought. They are basically controlling people through the religious belief of islam itself.
You have to then question how and if many would remain Muslims, when many cannot even leave through the fear of being executed for not believing something anymore.

No compulsion in religion?

Except in the most literal Islamic run nations, that will execute you for changing your religious belief.

Another massive contradiction and how Islamic doctrine again uses fear to control its flock

Also I might add again there is no death penalty authorized and commanded found within the Quran for apostasy, again its fables in the form of hadiths, that are being used by Muslims to over rule the Quran to allow for the death penalty for apostasy. As there is clear stated punishments for certain crimes found within the Quran. The Quran does state what happened to a group who were deemed hypocritical and traitors at the time of Muhammad, where Muhammad is allowed only to basically defeat them, because the Arabic verb has several meanings.  Which include, fight, kill, battle, war, another fundamental and ambiguous flaw within this chosen language of Arabic by this deity to use. But again there is no command to punish any other people who leave islam. So this is specific to one group of people. Which would then match and not conflict with the Surah of "there is no compulsion in religion" within the Quran. Sadly Muslims have over ruled the Quran and made religion compulsory when born into Islam.  Which goes back to me previous reply to Zack how the problems within Islam have formed from them rendering the Quran of secondary importance over whether there is no surah of allah on to punish people on a perceived wrong or sin. Then Muslims use a dubious unreliable hadith, which conflicts with the Quran and go off a claim to what and how Muhammad acted (again if true, would be still be in conflict with the Quran) as the bases to punish people. With the Quran is viewed that it is Allah who will judge people in regards to apostasy and yet Muslims have elevated their position to that of their own god, in countries where the punishment for apostasy is death or imprisonment. They now pass judgement on criminalizing a persons belief. If it changes from Islam and have elevated themselves to pass judgement where only their deity is allowed to pass judgement over.

As stated before this is what is so problematic about islam, where if nothing states to punish people, they then invented fables centuries after Muhammad. Claim these as deeds by Muhammad. Believe that by then emulating Muhammad, they then can pass judgement, when the Quran makes no view to punish people in this life for apostasy.

HoratioTarr wrote:I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable on the beach, and the most ridiculous garment.

Is M & S wrong for selling it?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3519932/Bin-burkini-M-S-launches-UK-burkini-Muslim-writer-YASMIN-ALIBHAI-BROWN-says-insidious-Islamification-fashion-terrible-blow-women.html

WOW...as far off field as topics tend to wander; this was started by the simple question about the 'BURKINI' and whether 'M & S' was wrong for selling it! 

Seems we've all answered that basic question and now the topics gone off the tracks and has run off the cliff...yet again; propelled by the incessant need to preach at fellow members about their POV - what's wrong with Islam/Muslims and men that brow beat women    

Rather simplistic solution really; do not like them - then by all means abstain from wearing them - I sincerely doubt that you'd ever have a vender show up at your front door trying to temp anyone here into purchasing a 'BURKINI'   

But if our Jehovah Witnesses thought that it might pull more non-members into their flock...well, I'd lay odds on that they'd be pack'm them and selling them door-to-door right here in the states! 

4EVER2 wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable on the beach, and the most ridiculous garment.

Is M & S wrong for selling it?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3519932/Bin-burkini-M-S-launches-UK-burkini-Muslim-writer-YASMIN-ALIBHAI-BROWN-says-insidious-Islamification-fashion-terrible-blow-women.html

WOW...as far off field as topics tend to wander; this was started by the simple question about the 'BURKINI' and whether 'M & S' was wrong for selling it! 

Seems we've all answered that basic question and now the topics gone off the tracks and has run off the cliff...yet again; propelled by the incessant need to preach at fellow members about their POV - what's wrong with Islam/Muslims and men that brow beat women    

didge wrote:No relevance and goading, and being as its not in reply to me can be deemed harrasement.
i suggest you learn to move on

Rather simplistic solution really; do not like them - then by all means abstain from wearing them - I sincerely doubt that you'd ever have a vender show up at your front door trying to temp anyone here into purchasing a 'BURKINI'   

didge wrote:Actually nothing has been resolved around how and why Muslims are misled to wear the face veil and Hijab. Now there is no where within the Quran that states or commands to wear either. So the beliefs come from the hadiths, which is why my other posts are fundamentally important and on topic. Some background and reasoning was needed to show how beliefs form and why I have gone into detail about the conflict within Islam, when they elevate claims to historical acts and sayings as if they are Surahs from Allah. Its placing Muhammad as equal to their own deity. So stating these conflicts is very important

But if our Jehovah Witnesses thought that it might pull more non-members into their flock...well, I'd lay odds on that they'd be pack'm them and selling them door-to-door right here in the states! 

Hope my explanation helps understand why its about looking to correct poor beliefs. Which as i have reasoned. It is the hadiths, in other words fables. Written centuries after the events, with again they are claims to views and acts, which conflict with the quran. as Muslims are treating claims to views and acts of Muhammad on a comparative bases as Surah's of the Quran. As seen this then renders the Quran of a secondary importance to then Muhammad.

   didge wrote:
   Actually nothing has been resolved around how and why Muslims are misled to wear the face veil and Hijab. Now there is no where within the Quran that states or commands to wear either. So the beliefs come from the hadiths, which is why my other posts are fundamentally important and on topic. Some background and reasoning was needed to show how beliefs form and why I have gone into detail about the conflict within Islam, when they elevate claims to historical acts and sayings as if they are Surahs from Allah. Its placing Muhammad as equal to their own deity. So stating these conflicts is very important

don't know about the UK
but no Aussie, Muslim or not, is forced to wear a face veil.

if they are in the UK then i recommend you vote to ensure that women are allowed to wear what they want.. but i am pretty sure others have already voted to give women that right and several more.. so ultimately a women wearing a burkini in the UK is choosing to.

if you want to change Saudi Arabia then may be move to Saudi Arabia if you feel so passionately about it. because as you are British and it is not the case in Britain, the only place you actually have a say, you are preaching in vain about a non issue that is resolved with time and inclusiveness.

veya_victaous wrote:

   didge wrote:
   Actually nothing has been resolved around how and why Muslims are misled to wear the face veil and Hijab. Now there is no where within the Quran that states or commands to wear either. So the beliefs come from the hadiths, which is why my other posts are fundamentally important and on topic. Some background and reasoning was needed to show how beliefs form and why I have gone into detail about the conflict within Islam, when they elevate claims to historical acts and sayings as if they are Surahs from Allah. Its placing Muhammad as equal to their own deity. So stating these conflicts is very important

don't know about the UK
but no Aussie, Muslim or not, is forced to wear a face veil.

if they are in the UK then i recommend you vote to ensure that women are allowed to wear what they want.. but i am pretty sure others have already voted to give women that right and several more.. so ultimately a women wearing a burkini in the UK is choosing to.

if you want to change Saudi Arabia then may be move to Saudi Arabia if you feel so passionately about it. because as you are British and it is not the case in Britain, the only place you actually have a say, you are preaching in vain about a non issue that is resolved with time and inclusiveness.

You are missing the point.
Fear is being used based off claims to deeds and views being claimed also factually as historic events.
Where Muslims are taught to emulate Muhammad
They thus are elevating unreliable views not found within the Quran
And the Quran is deemed to be the last message to be passed on within this myth.
So the hijab and face viel are then formed not from any command as a surah of Allah, but from unverified claims. 

It shows these beliefs were clearly man made if i allow for a possibility of the claim Allah exists.
If these beliefs are being taught to women through the doctrines like wahhaqbism with the face veil Then Muslim women are being misled that plays off a fear of punishment. Which at no point does the Quran stipulate for Muslims to judge over or create absolutes not found within the quran.

My views has always been on being openly critical to bad beliefs and how teaching such bad beliefs, where it denies the least ab ility to be objectionable. Allows Muslim women to believe it is a choice to wear in the west..
When how can it be if a punishment not to comply is then created and taught to enduce fear on them to comply.
There is no commands to wear this in the Quran
It even states there is no compulsion in religion
So how can then unverified and unreliable claims to deeds done be elevated to that on a parity of importance than their own deities message?

You can remain silent if you wish, but you then just allow a problem to continually exist

well I think If i live a safe and happy life and offer them a safe an happy life i will convert them easier than badgering them about the historical stupidity of their book ..

Just saying...

cause in the Burkini's case, it is the product of that

You may well in fact convert some.
What about the rest, who then continue to suffer not in Australia
Is you reason and answer then based and reasoned wise geographical?

well i don't have a say outside Australia. So not geographical as much as geopolitical.
like environmental action, we can think global but we must act local because that is all we can do.

while we can suggest, we cannot demand of others unless we want others to make demands of us. What would Tommy's reaction be to Saudi Arabia demanding the end of some English tradition??... you can imagine ... So why do you expect the Saudi hill shepherd to behave differently?

veya_victaous wrote:well i don't have a say outside Australia. So not geographical as much as geopolitical.
like environmental action, we can think global but we must act local because that is all we can do.

while we can suggest, we cannot demand of others unless we want others to make demands of us. What would Tommy's reaction be to Saudi Arabia demanding the end of some English tradition??... you can imagine  ... So why do you expect the Saudi hill shepherd to behave differently?

Frankly...for someone so consumed by quoting the Quran for justification for the continued off topic diatribe; FFS, even the old testament is used as a basis for gender control and manipulation in my country, by specific faith based religions... 

I would suggest that perhaps > Didge would be best served if he obtained this rebroadcast PBS show and got current with what & how Muhammed's POV evolved and he became a better enlightened human as he grew older!  Yes, indeed...Muhammad actually changed his own OPINION about quite a few issues...

'Life of Muhammad' PBS Series Explores Prophet's History

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/17/life-of-muhammad-pbs-series_n...
Aug 17, 2013 · The portrait of the Muslim prophet, which emerges from a PBS documentary “Life of Muhammad,” may surprise some American viewers.

veya_victaous wrote:well i don't have a say outside Australia. So not geographical as much as geopolitical.
like environmental action, we can think global but we must act local because that is all we can do.

while we can suggest, we cannot demand of others unless we want others to make demands of us. What would Tommy's reaction be to Saudi Arabia demanding the end of some English tradition??... you can imagine  ... So why do you expect the Saudi hill shepherd to behave differently?

There is nothing stopping you with technology today having a voice outside Australia
Again nobody has once stated demanding. I only offer to be able to reason views, without being castigated of being vocal on what I see are the cause and problems for centuries within.
I expect that in time as we saw within the West people join ranks in greater numbers being vocal to help bring about change as happened in the west where once Christianity held power and sway.
The Arab springs came a generation to soon. The youth in these nations wanted change, but overall, they were in many of these nations only a minority. This is another factor as to why we have seen a surge in Islamic extremism. A fear that the faith of Islam we lose control