If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

its called free will

sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

So if God gives people the freedom to choose how to live their lives, why don't his followers give everyone that same freedom? Why do they try to ban gay marriage, abortion, or really anything that goes against the Bible?

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

your first point assumes gays are born that way, which arguably is incorrect..

if everyone was created a believer where is faith, God does not make people do things they chose by themselves.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

So if God gives people the freedom to choose how to live their lives, why don't his followers give everyone that same freedom? Why do they try to ban gay marriage, abortion, or really anything that goes against the Bible?

because as followers we know the price of not following Gods truth, if you knew someone was going to walk off the edge of a cliff would you just let them.

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

i call that stupidity on the behalf of the believers

"Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible"

that's exactly what god does

god faith religion are not physical concepts but are rather ethereal and spiritual and as such why would god be concern with what happens to your physical body over a period of 80 odd years??

it makes sense that god is more concerned about the welfare and well being of your spiritual soul which is everlasting.

and as a parent god did break his own heart when he sent his only son to die for the salvation of the souls of his creation to protect them form everlasting spiritual suffering even though it is not always possible

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Actually quite the opposite if God was a tyrant I guess we would all be born believers, he gives us freedom of choice to believe or live our lives how ever we wish but we all know there are always consequences to choices.

So if God gives people the freedom to choose how to live their lives, why don't his followers give everyone that same freedom? Why do they try to ban gay marriage, abortion, or really anything that goes against the Bible?

because his followers are just people who have their own agendas

smelly_bandit wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

i call that stupidity on the behalf of the believers

"Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible"

that's exactly what god does

god faith religion are not physical concepts but are rather ethereal and spiritual and as such why would god be concern with what happens to your physical body over a period of 80 odd years??

it makes sense that god is more concerned about the welfare and well being of your spiritual soul which is everlasting.

and as a parent god did break his own heart when he sent his only son to die for the salvation of the souls of his creation to protect them form everlasting spiritual suffering even though it is not always possible    

very well said.. :D 

Cool! Then leave the rest of us alone -- after all, we all apparently get the advantage of some pre-death interview with God. I'll just wait till then, and tell God -- to paraphrase Michael Shermer ...

"God, sorry I did not believe in you, but I used the brain which you apparently gave me to interpret the existence you apparently gave me to the best of my abilities, which you also apparently gave me. I tried to lead a good life and to help others, and I always felt that was far more important than whether I believed in your existence."

Ben_Reilly wrote:Cool! Then leave the rest of us alone -- after all, we all apparently get the advantage of some pre-death interview with God. I'll just wait till then, and tell God -- to paraphrase Michael Shermer ...

"God, sorry I did not believe in you, but I used the brain which you apparently gave me to interpret the existence you apparently gave me to the best of my abilities, which you also apparently gave me. I tried to lead a good life and to help others, and I always felt that was far more important than whether I believed in your existence."

unfortunately one of the last commands Jesus gave was to go and preach the good news to all the earth, so that's not going to happen..

No the bible tells you quite clearly your good deeds are as filthy rags, so what you think are good really is not.

heavenly father wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Cool! Then leave the rest of us alone -- after all, we all apparently get the advantage of some pre-death interview with God. I'll just wait till then, and tell God -- to paraphrase Michael Shermer ...

"God, sorry I did not believe in you, but I used the brain which you apparently gave me to interpret the existence you apparently gave me to the best of my abilities, which you also apparently gave me. I tried to lead a good life and to help others, and I always felt that was far more important than whether I believed in your existence."

unfortunately one of the last commands Jesus gave was to go and preach the good news to all the earth, so that's not going to happen..

No the bible tells you quite clearly your good deeds are as filthy rags, so what you think are good really is not.

Apparently so. I think it's a horrible injustice to allow a mass murderer into heaven because he can "believe" in something for which there's no proof, while tormenting someone for eternity just because they never had the opportunity to read the Bible.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

your first point assumes gays are born that way, which arguably is incorrect..

if everyone was created a believer where is faith, God does not make people do things they chose by themselves.

What argument demonstrates people born gay is incorrect?

Choice causes suffering. A good parent does not give their child something that will cause them pain if it can possibly be avoided - if god is all powerful then suffering can be avoided which makes him a parent that delights in causing his children suffering.

heavenly father wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

So if God gives people the freedom to choose how to live their lives, why don't his followers give everyone that same freedom? Why do they try to ban gay marriage, abortion, or really anything that goes against the Bible?

because as followers we know the price of not following Gods truth, if you knew someone was going to walk off the edge of a cliff would you just let them.

But if I failed to stop them I would suffer - and god seems quite happy for me to suffer the failure of preventing someone elses suffering.

smelly_bandit wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But you have true believers who are totally convinced their sexuality is a mortal sin who pray to him for help - and whom he does nothing about leaving them to spend their lives suffering the belief they are going to hell for something they cannot do anything about no matter how hard they try.

I call that sadistic myself.

Also if everyone was created a believer who was incapable of sinning everyone would be totally happy and secure the entire time - no wars no fighting no purgatory for sins and surely that would be a far better less sadistic set up than we have now?

Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible - yet god who is supposed to be both a parent and all powerful as well as the creator of all things not only allows suffering but designs and generates it.

i call that stupidity on the behalf of the believers

"Any decent parent will break their heart trying to protect their children from suffering even when that is not possible"

that's exactly what god does

god faith religion are not physical concepts but are rather ethereal and spiritual and as such why would god be concern with what happens to your physical body over a period of 80 odd years??

it makes sense that god is more concerned about the welfare and well being of your spiritual soul which is everlasting.

and as a parent god did break his own heart when he sent his only son to die for the salvation of the souls of his creation to protect them form everlasting spiritual suffering even though it is not always possible    

But why would an all powerful god create or allow any form of suffering unless he was sadistic?

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

your first point assumes gays are born that way, which arguably is incorrect..

if everyone was created a believer where is faith, God does not make people do things they chose by themselves.

What argument demonstrates people born gay is incorrect?

Choice causes suffering.  A good parent does not give their child something that will cause them pain if it can possibly be avoided - if god is all powerful then suffering can be avoided which makes him a parent that delights in causing his children suffering.

genetics for one, the fact 90 odd percent are not would imply more of a mix up than design, that sort of thing.

so are you going to make every decision for your child the whole of their life or will you be there to pick up the pieces when they get it wrong Just like God.

heavenly father wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Cool! Then leave the rest of us alone -- after all, we all apparently get the advantage of some pre-death interview with God. I'll just wait till then, and tell God -- to paraphrase Michael Shermer ...

"God, sorry I did not believe in you, but I used the brain which you apparently gave me to interpret the existence you apparently gave me to the best of my abilities, which you also apparently gave me. I tried to lead a good life and to help others, and I always felt that was far more important than whether I believed in your existence."

unfortunately one of the last commands Jesus gave was to go and preach the good news to all the earth, so that's not going to happen..

No the bible tells you quite clearly your good deeds are as filthy rags, so what you think are good really is not.

Would a good parent tell a child that no matter what they did to please the parent it was all worthless and any good they did would be due to the parent?

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

What argument demonstrates people born gay is incorrect?

Choice causes suffering.  A good parent does not give their child something that will cause them pain if it can possibly be avoided - if god is all powerful then suffering can be avoided which makes him a parent that delights in causing his children suffering.

genetics for one, the fact 90 odd percent are not would imply more of a mix up than design, that sort of thing.

so are you going to make every decision for your child the whole of their life or will you be there to pick up the pieces when they get it wrong Just like God.

But genetics has been demonstrated with the improved breeding success of female relatives of gay males.

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

unfortunately one of the last commands Jesus gave was to go and preach the good news to all the earth, so that's not going to happen..

No the bible tells you quite clearly your good deeds are as filthy rags, so what you think are good really is not.

Would a good parent tell a child that no matter what they did to please the parent it was all worthless and any good they did would be due to the parent?

If I could make sure my child was safe forever by me dying tomorrow i would gladly do it, that's exactly what God has done.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

What argument demonstrates people born gay is incorrect?

Choice causes suffering.  A good parent does not give their child something that will cause them pain if it can possibly be avoided - if god is all powerful then suffering can be avoided which makes him a parent that delights in causing his children suffering.

genetics for one, the fact 90 odd percent are not would imply more of a mix up than design, that sort of thing.

so are you going to make every decision for your child the whole of their life or will you be there to pick up the pieces when they get it wrong Just like God.

I am not all powerful - if I was all powerful I would make sure my children never suffered anything. I pick up the pieces because I am mortal and flawed as are my children.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Would a good parent tell a child that no matter what they did to please the parent it was all worthless and any good they did would be due to the parent?

If I could make sure my child was safe forever by me dying tomorrow i would gladly do it, that's exactly what God has done.

But an all powerful god would not need to. Besides which god did not die.

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

genetics for one, the fact 90 odd percent are not would imply more of a mix up than design, that sort of thing.

so are you going to make every decision for your child the whole of their life or will you be there to pick up the pieces when they get it wrong Just like God.

I am not all powerful - if I was all powerful I would make sure my children never suffered anything.  I pick up the pieces because I am mortal and flawed as are my children.

Imagine God's pain waiting for us to chose his way while watching us make such a mess knowing we have to decide.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I am not all powerful - if I was all powerful I would make sure my children never suffered anything.  I pick up the pieces because I am mortal and flawed as are my children.

Imagine God's pain waiting for us to chose his way while watching us make such a mess knowing we have to decide.

What pain?

The only reason any being puts other beings through pain that is unnecessary is to give themselves pleasure.

If god is all powerful then any pain of any being is unnecessary and is therefore done for pleasure

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Imagine God's pain waiting for us to chose his way while watching us make such a mess knowing we have to decide.

What pain?

The only reason any being puts other beings through pain that is unnecessary is to give themselves pleasure.

If god is all powerful then any pain of any being is unnecessary and is therefore done for pleasure

Is that what you really believe, that is just so sad, if the world would be so perfect according to you if God would just make us believe without choice, why don't we all do something miraculous and all make our choice to believe in him.

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

What pain?

The only reason any being puts other beings through pain that is unnecessary is to give themselves pleasure.

If god is all powerful then any pain of any being is unnecessary and is therefore done for pleasure

Is that what you really believe, that is just so sad, if the world would be so perfect according to you if God would just make us believe without choice, why don't we all do something miraculous and all make our choice to believe in him.

Do you believe that god could stop all suffering if he wanted to?

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

Is that what you really believe, that is just so sad, if the world would be so perfect according to you if God would just make us believe without choice, why don't we all do something miraculous and all make our choice to believe in him.

Do you believe that god could stop all suffering if he wanted to?

no because he has chosen to limit his own ability by giving us freedom of choice..

heavenly father wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you believe that god could stop all suffering if he wanted to?

no because he has chosen to limit his own ability by giving us freedom of choice..

If he has chosen to limit his own ability he could choose not to limit it.

I am not asking you if you believe he will I am asking you if he could if he chose to.

So if god chose to take the limits off himself could he stop all suffering if he wanted to?

What is even sicker is...that god ALREADY KNOWS what choices we are going to make (according to the fiction)
therefore, WHY does he allow a soul to be created which he KNOWS will sin, which he KNOWS will NEVER believe....and then fry that soul for all eternity??

sadism ...pure and simple....

HE allows sin because its the soul reason HE created human beings! HE is testing us.

@Ben murderers are not allowed in Heaven

SEXY MAMA wrote:HE allows sin because its the soul reason HE created human beings! HE is testing us.

Why would god need to test us? He already knows the outcome.

grumpy old git wrote:What is even sicker is...that god ALREADY KNOWS what choices we are going to make (according to the fiction)
therefore, WHY does he allow a soul to be created which he KNOWS will sin, which he KNOWS will NEVER believe....and then fry that soul for all eternity??

sadism ...pure and simple....

  

Agreed Grumpy, no God could be so cruel   

SEXY MAMA wrote:@Ben murderers are not allowed in Heaven

well that really depends

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy)

So if you kill in the name of god is that murder? And would following the word of god bar you from entry to "heaven"

Korben Dallas wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:@Ben murderers are not allowed in Heaven

well that really depends

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy)

So if you kill in the name of god is that murder? And would following  the word of god bar you from entry to "heaven"

You cant kill another human being and go to heaven. No matter what the reason is. You dont 'kill' in the name of God.

sphinx wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:HE allows sin because its the soul reason HE created human beings! HE is testing us.

Why would god need to test us?  He already knows the outcome.

HE does indeed but as we have limited knowledge we cannot comprehend HIS plans.

There are many examples in the bible of god requiring people to be killed SM
Although I admit that god did not write the bible so any demands for death are suspect at best

Korben Dallas wrote:There are many examples in the bible of god requiring people to be killed SM
Although I admit that god did not write the bible so any demands for death are suspect at best

Agreed.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Why would god need to test us?  He already knows the outcome.

HE does indeed but as we have limited knowledge we cannot comprehend HIS plans.

Can you explain any system where suffering could be unnecessary but is created and allowed which is benevolent?

sphinx wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HE does indeed but as we have limited knowledge we cannot comprehend HIS plans.

Can you explain any system where suffering could be unnecessary but is created and allowed which is benevolent?

No and as i explained earlier that with humans limited knowledge we cannot comprehend why the creator made the world the way it is.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sphinx wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

HE does indeed but as we have limited knowledge we cannot comprehend HIS plans.

Can you explain any system where suffering could be unnecessary but is created and allowed which is benevolent?

No and as i explained earlier that with humans limited knowledge we cannot comprehend why the creator made the world the way it is.

Ah, but that's always the explanation given when we have trouble making sense of religious teachings. It's always our fault that we can't make sense of it. Bleh.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Can you explain any system where suffering could be unnecessary but is created and allowed which is benevolent?

No and as i explained earlier that with humans limited knowledge we cannot comprehend why the creator made the world the way it is.

That is a cop out.

A child cannot possibly understand many things with their limited knowledge so we as parents make sure they are prevented from activities they cannot understand because we see the harm in them.

What god would have us with limited knowledge set tasks that knowledge is inadequate for knowing we will fail unless that god was sadistic and got off on suffering?

You can claim an all powerful god and I will tell you such a god is a sadistic torturing horror or you can claim a benevolent god and I will tell you that god is not all powerful.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

No and as i explained earlier that with humans limited knowledge we cannot comprehend why the creator made the world the way it is.

Ah, but that's always the explanation given when we have trouble making sense of religious teachings. It's always our fault that we can't make sense of it. Bleh.

Lol! You either believe in HIM or you dont there are no 2 ways about it. Im not here to preach to you   

God made Adam and eve in his image and perfect according to the bible

And it was we who spoiled it by eating from the tree of knowledge

Did god one not see that coming?

And if he wanted perfection, why did he place such a danger to his perfection where we could get at it
Why not put it on top of a mountain on the other side of the planet .....or why make such a dangerous
Thing at all and put it in the garden in the first place
its like giving a 4 year old a loaded gun

I think i posted this to SF, funny as fuck though!

  

Korben Dallas wrote:God made Adam and eve in his image and perfect according to the bible

And it was we who spoiled it by eating from the tree of knowledge

Did god one not see that coming?

And if he wanted perfection, why did he place such a danger to his perfection where we could get at it
Why not put it on top of a mountain on the other side of the planet .....or why make such a dangerous
Thing at all and put it in the garden in the first place
its like giving a 4 year old a loaded gun

Exactly.

I am not saying god is not all powerful.

I am saying god is a sadistic malevolent torturer who gets pleasure out of watching his own creations suffer and fail.

sphinx wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:God made Adam and eve in his image and perfect according to the bible

And it was we who spoiled it by eating from the tree of knowledge

Did god one not see that coming?

And if he wanted perfection, why did he place such a danger to his perfection where we could get at it
Why not put it on top of a mountain on the other side of the planet .....or why make such a dangerous
Thing at all and put it in the garden in the first place
its like giving a 4 year old a loaded gun

Exactly.

I am not saying god is not all powerful.

I am saying god is a sadistic malevolent torturer who gets pleasure out of watching his own creations suffer and fail.

i understand what you are saying
But as "god "doesn`t actually exist
He can't be sadistic malevolent or a torturer

I think my favorite in regards to the character of the biblical deity is to show Yahweh is sadistic and evil and the bible is clearly full of contradictions, is this one:

Satan and God one day are having a few pints down the Cloud Inn debating who is the most evil with God who is winning hands down over his flooding of the world. The discussion turns to Job, a wealthy and righteous man who is essentially perfect in God’s eyes. God points out Job’s good behavior to Satan, but Satan disagrees with him and says that Job would curse the name of God if all his possessions were taken away. The bet is on, and God permits Satan to do anything to Job as long as he doesn’t permanently harm him. Satan, who though we are led also to believe has been defeated in heaven and cast down to hell   leaves  the omnipresent Lord who has already kicked his arse in a fight with banishment to hell but I guess is let out for the occasional pint. God evidently stands back while the Satan torments Job by stealing his possessions, slaughtering his livestock, murdering his family, killing his workers, and afflicting him with diseases. Withstanding even the most tumultuous of misfortunes, Job remains loyal to God and doesn't curse him.

Buy hey God is right after all and allowed Job to lose everyone and everything, just so he could win a bet with Satan, even though God teaches people pride is a sin.  

Korben Dallas wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Exactly.

I am not saying god is not all powerful.

I am saying god is a sadistic malevolent torturer who gets pleasure out of watching his own creations suffer and fail.

i understand what you are saying
But as "god "doesn`t actually exist
He can't be sadistic malevolent or a torturer

Try telling that to heavenly father

sphinx wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:
i understand what you are saying
But as "god "doesn`t actually exist
He can't be sadistic malevolent or a torturer

Try telling that to heavenly father

 ::rfth:: ::rfth:: ::rfth:: ::rfth:: ::rfth::