Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Leading Scottish politicians are calling for another referendum on independence from the UK after Britain voted to exit the EU. The Scottish public backed staying in the bloc and former SNP leader Alex Salmond says Scotland should “never leave the EU.”

Salmond made the comments during an interview with Sky News: “The sensible thing for Scotland to do would never be to leave the European Union,” he said.

His comments were backed by the current leader of the SNP, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also backing a second independence vote, after 62 percent of the population voted to remain in Europe. This was against the tide of the rest of the UK where 52 percent voted to leave the bloc.

"Scotland has delivered a strong, unequivocal vote to remain in the EU, and I welcome that endorsement of our European status," Sturgeon said on Friday before the final result was known, as cited by Reuters.

"Scotland has contributed significantly to the Remain vote across the UK. That reflects the positive campaign the SNP fought, which highlighted the gains and benefits of our EU membership, and people across Scotland have responded to that positive message,” she added.
Sturgeon has remained consistent about her threat to call a second referendum. Speaking in April, she said: “The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people.”

In May, Salmond said Scotland would not be pulled out of the EU “against its will.”

https://www.rt.com/uk/348160-scotland-brexit-uk-independence/

Think the song should be 'all by ourselves'

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:50 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What is your point? Is it, like tommy, that you think devolution should be abandoned?

If the four different political states go their separate ways, Northern Ireland will likely join Ireland, and the rest will be weakened. Wouldn't it be humorous if Ireland turned out to be the big dog of the British Isles?

The point is simple, you are making absurd points, not actually caring for the furture of Scotland.
Its simple either way now for Scotland and on both roads leads to being out of the EU.
If they wish to be also independent out of the EU
Then by all means, give them that vote, as its one less problem the rest of the Uk has to then worry about.
As to Northern ireland the matter will still be the same, and being as ireland does a huge amountg of trade with the Uk, joining the South would leave them economically worse off, where as it would leave the Uk without a security issue to deal with anymore, as well as the economic advantages.
You are just throwing in aspects, not backing them up with any data

No response from Quill and its no wonder why lol

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:the fact is Scotland do not have the right to stay in the EU

To the contrary, the UK commanded it. Read section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998, enacted by Westminster.

No one commanded anything Quill.
There was a vote remember?

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:54 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

To the contrary, the UK commanded it. Read section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998, enacted by Westminster.

No one commanded anything Quill.
There was a vote remember?

The UK wrote the Scotland Act of 1998. Now, are you suggesting the UK law is not the authority, or that UK law can be ignored? What do you mean exactly when you say that law is not a command?

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

No one commanded anything Quill.
There was a vote remember?

The UK wrote the Scotland Act of 1998. Now, are you suggesting the UK law is not the authority, or that UK law can be ignored? What do you mean exactly when you say that law is not a command?

The Uk is the telling point here

Scotland is only part of the EU as part of the Uk
It will cease to be a part of many of the enjoyments it has as a member of the Uk, if it decides to leave.
Its astounding how something thios simple, is so difficult a struggle for you to understand.
What relevance would the Scotland act of 1998 have if Scotland leaves?

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

No one commanded anything Quill.
There was a vote remember?

The UK wrote the Scotland Act of 1998. Now, are you suggesting the UK law is not the authority, or that UK law can be ignored? What do you mean exactly when you say that law is not a command?

It was the way you phrased it. I thought you were suggesting that we had bullied Scotland in some way....like you did yesterday. Wink

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Wrong again... you seem confused about what the devolved powers are and the supremacy of uk parliament...

Eu membership is not a devolved power.

Tommy, if you don't put your brain in gear, I'm going to just ignore you.

EU membership is a subscription, not a political organization. Scotland is a devolved organization. Scotland has options that Brexit stupidly ignored...completely spaced out. And they were options that the UK itself devised. How does your left hand not know what the right hand is doing?

Now, stop talking prattle or drop out, tommy.

The prattle is all yours...

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:58 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:the fact is Scotland do not have the right to stay in the EU

To the contrary, the UK commanded it. Read section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998, enacted by Westminster.

FFS, that relates to EU law, not membership of the EU. I don't know how you can call yourself a lawyer.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

To the contrary, the UK commanded it. Read section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998, enacted by Westminster.

FFS, that relates to EU law, not membership of the EU. I don't know how you can call yourself a lawyer.

I don't know how you can call yourself rational. The Scotland Act of 1998 is UK law, not EU law.

FCS, the real issue is between the options granted under devolution and the UK's new-found rejection of EU membership. Scotland has an option granted to it by Westminster, to refuse dropping its adherence to the EU.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:21 pm

No that is not a devolved power.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No that is not a devolved power.

Scotland is not a devolved political entity, along with Wales and Northern Ireland? You're joking. So, to your thinking devolution never happened?

I was wondering how you were going to negotiate your path out of doing away with the Sewel convention.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:31 pm

Try listing the devolved powers... that might help you understand things a little better...

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:38 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Try listing the devolved powers... that might help you understand things a little better...

Wiki wrote:In the United Kingdom, devolution (Scottish Gaelic: fèin-riaghlaidh, Welsh: datganoli) refers to the statutory granting of powers from the Parliament of the United Kingdom to the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the London Assembly and to their associated executive bodies the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Greater London Authority.

That's four so far. I understand there have been attempts elsewhere, but they are incomplete.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

FFS, that relates to EU law, not membership of the EU. I don't know how you can call yourself a lawyer.

I don't know how you can call yourself rational. The Scotland Act of 1998 is UK law, not EU law.

FCS, the real issue is between the options granted under devolution and the UK's new-found rejection of EU membership. Scotland has an option granted to it by Westminster, to refuse dropping its adherence to the EU.

It is not relating to membership of the EU. Honestly, I don't know why I'm bothering, or why anyone else is bothering. You clearly know nothing about the situation, the law, and or anything much.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:43 pm

No... try listing the powers that have been devolved to scotland...

That was my question...

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:54 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I don't know how you can call yourself rational. The Scotland Act of 1998 is UK law, not EU law.

FCS, the real issue is between the options granted under devolution and the UK's new-found rejection of EU membership. Scotland has an option granted to it by Westminster, to refuse dropping its adherence to the EU.

It is not relating to membership of the EU. Honestly, I don't know why I'm bothering, or why anyone else is bothering. You clearly know nothing about the situation, the law, and or anything much.

Yes it is...you are wrong on that. Section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998 says that Scotland must adhere to EU laws. It appears that it is you who is ill-informed. I would suggest you read it, then we can discuss it.

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It is not relating to membership of the EU. Honestly, I don't know why I'm bothering, or why anyone else is bothering. You clearly know nothing about the situation, the law, and or anything much.

Yes it is...you are wrong on that. Section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998 says that Scotland must adhere to EU laws. It appears that it is you who is ill-informed. I would suggest you read it, then we can discuss it.

Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 9 3489511464

How is Scotland going to abide by EU laws, when it will not be in the EU, whether it stays with the UK or becomes independent?
This law is dependent on the Scottish remaining with the UK

For fuck sake, its hilarious

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... try listing the powers that have been devolved to scotland...

That was my question...

Tommy, I've patiently explained it to you dozens of times. It’s not that you haven’t had it explained to you, it’s that you don’t grasp the meaning of the words. I encourage you to learn to read for comprehension.

Here…

Quill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:03 pm

I think its safe to say its not even worth continuing this, when Quill knows nothing about UK law.

Youa re wasting your breath everyone, or he is playing some very childish game, either of which he is like a broken pencil

Pointless

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:07 pm

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/devolution-settlement-scotland

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:10 pm

didge wrote:How is Scotland going to abide by EU laws, when it will not be in the EU, whether it stays with the UK or becomes independent?
This law is dependent on the Scottish remaining with the UK

For fuck sake, its hilarious

It is hilarious, isn't it? An antinomy is a fundamental and apparently unresolvable conflict or contradiction. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antinomy In law: A term used in logic and law to denote a real or apparent inconsistency or conflict between two authorities or propositions; same as antinomia. Black's Law Dictionary. That's what I have been saying we have in this case.

You can drop one--Sewell convention or Brexit--but you can't have both.

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:12 pm

Original Quill wrote:
didge wrote:How is Scotland going to abide by EU laws, when it will not be in the EU, whether it stays with the UK or becomes independent?
This law is dependent on the Scottish remaining with the UK

For fuck sake, its hilarious

It is hilarious, isn't it? An antinomy is a fundamental and apparently unresolvable conflict or contradiction. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antinomy In law: A term used in logic and law to denote a real or apparent inconsistency or conflict between two authorities or propositions; same as antinomia. Black's Law Dictionary. That's what I have been saying we have in this case.

You can drop one--Sewell convention or Brexit--but you can't have both.

It is hilarious as again you simply do not understand Uk law and how Scotland is only part of the EU based on the UK as a nation, not as a seperate nation deal.
I mean all the press around how the SNP were trying to get a deal based off becoming independent and being rebuked by the EU, may have given you a small tad of a clue on this

DOH

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:13 pm

Read the link I posted...

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:14 pm

Didge wrote:I think its safe to say its not even worth continuing this, when Quill knows nothing about UK law.

Youa re wasting your breath everyone, or he is playing some very childish game, either of which he is like a broken pencil

Pointless

Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 9 Flat,220x200,075,t.u2

One way or the other, it's gonna catch up to you. Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 9 3489511464

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:18 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:I think its safe to say its not even worth continuing this, when Quill knows nothing about UK law.

Youa re wasting your breath everyone, or he is playing some very childish game, either of which he is like a broken pencil

Pointless

One way or the other, it's gonna catch up to you.

And we are back to 2 year old Quill

lol

by Major Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:18 pm

It would be called JOCKEX lol

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:https://www.gov.uk/guidance/devolution-settlement-scotland

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:58 pm

Major wrote:It would be called JOCKEX lol

Very funny Major. Laughing

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:38 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Leaving the eu means we get all our powers and controls over our country 'devolved' back to us from the eu...

I know. I think you've already expressed your preference for trashing the Sewel convention.

But it's an interesting exercise in nation-building, or in this case...nation disassembling.

The eu is about nation dissembling...

You claim to support proper legal procedure... try telling us how us voting to stay in a simple trade arrangement back in 1975 called the EEC, with promises and assurances that this meant no loss of sovereignty/democracy/national powers would follow... ended up with huge losses of sovereignty/democracy/national powers to different political entity, a federalist dictatorship, called the eu, which was created in 1992, and has never had the consent of the british people... and one which has grabbed increasingly more and more powers from us since 1993, and none of which have ever had the consent of the british people...!?

Quill... would you not argue the illegality and illegitimacy of this...!?

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:30 pm

Come on Quill...?

Are you not going to complain about the imposition on Scotland in 1998 to be forced to adhere to eu law that had never been voted for...!!!???

Funny that...!!!

lol!

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:11 pm

Quill has run away...

Wonder why...!?

by Irn Bru Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:10 am

You guys keep banging on about removing the European Communities act from the Scotland Act but you should really be looking first of all of how the Westminster government are going to get it out of UK law because it will take an act of parliament to remove it and that will happen when detalis of what has been negotiated in the exit deal. MPs will have to vote on that and as the referendum was not binding on Parliament you may well find the exit deal is not acceptable.

by Irn Bru Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:14 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Leaving the eu means we get all our powers and controls over our country 'devolved' back to us from the eu...

I know. I think you've already expressed your preference for trashing the Sewel convention.

But it's an interesting exercise in nation-building, or in this case...nation disassembling.

The eu is about nation dissembling...

You claim to support proper legal procedure... try telling us how us voting to stay in a simple trade arrangement back in 1975 called the EEC, with promises and assurances that this meant no loss of sovereignty/democracy/national powers would follow... ended up with huge losses of sovereignty/democracy/national powers to different political entity, a federalist dictatorship, called the eu, which was created in 1992, and has never had the consent of the british people... and one which has grabbed increasingly more and more powers from us since 1993, and none of which have ever had the consent of the british people...!?

Quill... would you not argue the illegality and illegitimacy of this...!?

That has already been defeated in the courts Tommy. Try reading up on 'Treason at Masstricht'.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:39 pm

Yeah... and you were telling us that no country had a veto over another new one joining the eu, the other day...

What I say is true... regardless of any court bullshit...

by eddie Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quill has run away...

Wonder why...!?

People do have to sleep, eat, poo, rest, clean, cook, you know.... Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 9 2190311264

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:48 pm

Well...and too, the point is made. Those who want to feign a lack of understanding, will do so with no consequence. Those who really don't understand, will never understand. We await only my inevitable, I told you so. Rolling Eyes

So what we are left with are the dregs of the bitching and moaning. Look at tommy's last few posts...either baby's getting sleepy or he really has nothing more to say.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:54 pm

You have no answer...

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You have no answer...

You have no question. Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 9 2190311264

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:59 pm

My point and question is clear... you just don't want you answer... so you go into waffle mode...

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:42 pm

Well, if we can avoid a long discussion on Maastricht, I gather you are asking the abstract question: Can one be forced to join a group involuntarily as a condition precedent to share in some benefit or other? Or, reverse the question: Can one be forced to withdraw from a group as a condition precedent to continued association?

Freedom of association is a very important principle of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. The group of rights ensconced in the First Amendment all, in one way or another, involve the way of politics of the United States. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom from forced establishment of religion, freedom to petition government for redress, and freedom of association, all are intended to vouchsafe the avenues of democracy.

Many of these freedoms are in fact not as freely bestowed in Great Britain today. For example, the UK does not have the absolute freedom of speech and freedom of the press that we in the US have. The UK has a state religion. Even today, the UK is commanding that Scotland follow it to either join (previously, in section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998), or abstain from remaining with the EU (the point we were arguing previously).

So much for freedom of association in the UK. Now, I don't live in the UK so I'm not forced to join some group. (However, as an aside, as I muse over the question, I don't remember being consulted about the US joining NATO.) However, for the same reason, I cannot say how I would feel about the forced association with any group.

Y'all have nowhere near the concrete freedoms that we in America have. So I guess I'm saying, if you want to live in England, live with it. A lot of people--for much the same reasons--chose to emigrate from Europe to America. So could you.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:54 pm

And waffle was the clear as mud reply...

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And waffle was the clear as mud reply...

You see? I abstain from answering your question, and you don't like it. Then, I go ahead and answer your question, and you still don't like it.

Proof positive, you don't believe in free choice, you don't like the answers. You want to put words in someone else's mouth. Tommy, you are a RW'r, and I grant that you are not comfortable with giving people choices. But, I remind you, for a day and a half you have been belligerent and insistent that I answer your question. When I do...you don't like the answer.

It's called freedom of choice. Isn't freedom of choice the issue that your question begs? Aren't you saying that the UK was denied a choice whether or not to join the EU? But as a RW'r you are the wrong person to ask that question. Remember, RW'rs champion autocracy, not democracy. Freedom of choice is not in their repertoire.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:13 pm

My earlier question was about the denial of choice to ever be in the eu...

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:My earlier question was about the denial of choice to ever be in the eu...

I know. What do you think we've been discussing?

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