Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow

First topic message reminder :

Leading Scottish politicians are calling for another referendum on independence from the UK after Britain voted to exit the EU. The Scottish public backed staying in the bloc and former SNP leader Alex Salmond says Scotland should “never leave the EU.”


Salmond made the comments during an interview with Sky News: “The sensible thing for Scotland to do would never be to leave the European Union,” he said.

His comments were backed by the current leader of the SNP, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also backing a second independence vote, after 62 percent of the population voted to remain in Europe. This was against the tide of the rest of the UK where 52 percent voted to leave the bloc.

"Scotland has delivered a strong, unequivocal vote to remain in the EU, and I welcome that endorsement of our European status," Sturgeon said on Friday before the final result was known, as cited by Reuters.

"Scotland has contributed significantly to the Remain vote across the UK. That reflects the positive campaign the SNP fought, which highlighted the gains and benefits of our EU membership, and people across Scotland have responded to that positive message,” she added. 
Sturgeon has remained consistent about her threat to call a second referendum. Speaking in April, she said: “The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people.” 


In May, Salmond said Scotland would not be pulled out of the EU “against its will.”  



https://www.rt.com/uk/348160-scotland-brexit-uk-independence/








Think the song should be 'all by ourselves'

Didge wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


Ah and as per usual the lefty can resort to abuse

Again California is part of the US, and thus is part of the US economy


doh

It's a matter of perspective, so I see why you don't understand

Oh I see that its lefty perspective, hence why it makes no sense



Catch you later

Later? Could you define how much later? I'd prefer it in years if possible.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Didge wrote:


Oh I see that its lefty perspective, hence why it makes no sense



Catch you later

Later? Could you define how much later? I'd prefer it in years if possible.

Only on ther left do we see people show such distain for others simple because their views differ and yet its the left who claim to hold the higher moral ground, but its clear as day that the lefty moral compass broke down years ago.
Like I said, if you want me to leave, you merely have to ask, if its such a burden for you, that I am posting on this site

Original Quill wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:perhaps we can organise a petition for a referendum to refuse scotland the use of the pound if they chose to leave. although if they join the EU they will have to accept the euro anyway.
10 years without a currency might put a damper on things.

Scotland already has it's own currency.  Has for 45-years:

Scotland's three largest clearing banks (the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale Bank) still print paper notes denominated in pounds sterling. These notes may be accepted as payment throughout the United Kingdom, but are much more commonly seen in Scotland; they represent the same Pound Sterling value as do Bank of England notes in England and Wales.

That's not its own currency - it's still sterling. It's just a different design on the bank notes.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Scotland had their chance to be an independent country....the vote was over 55% to stay ...44% to go it alone.

Referendum is a different matter, Syl.   This thread is about Scotland's standing pat in the EU.

The option is not Scotland separating from England, but England abandoning Scotland.  England is the one that wants changes.  

Let them.  Just leave the rest alone.

Of all the comments you've made, this has to be the most puzzling. Scotland wanted a referendum, they got one, they chose to stay with the UK. If they had chosen to leave, it would have been Scotland abandoning England, which would have been fine - their choice. They knew the EU referendum was coming up, and they still voted to stay with the UK.

Apologies if this has already been covered, but who has the authority to decide whether Scotland get another bite at the cherry or not? Can the Scots decide for themselves to have another referendum to leave the UK, or does it have to come from the UK Parliament?

Raggamuffin wrote:Apologies if this has already been covered, but who has the authority to decide whether Scotland get another bite at the cherry or not? Can the Scots decide for themselves to have another referendum to leave the UK, or does it have to come from the UK Parliament?

I think they need permission from Westminster....this was covered on Question time last night.
A senior Con MP (forgot his name) was asked would permission be granted IF Scotland wanted a second independence debate....he waffled (like they all do) but implied no....not at this time.

I just read on internet somewhere that the Eu are not interested in Scotland joining, there was more said il'l try to find it again.

nicko wrote:I just read on internet somewhere that the Eu are not interested in Scotland joining, there was more said il'l try to find it again.

That's the very beauty of what I'm suggesting.  Scotland must argue that it is not "joining"...that it never left: 1) that it has independent legal status; 2) that it does not accept any proxy or surrogate for it; 3) that neither England nor the UK can speak for it, least of all resign its membership, and 4) ergo: that it has never left the EU.

The equation is elegant.

Bullshit... Scotland is part of the uk and the UK is in the eu as the UK... the UK as a whole have voted to.leave the eu... if Scotland don't like it then they have to lump it...


If they really don't like it and want to join the eu on their own then first they must leave the UK... then they must apply to the eu as a new member...

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:I just read on internet somewhere that the Eu are not interested in Scotland joining, there was more said il'l try to find it again.

That's the very beauty of what I'm suggesting.  Scotland must argue that it is not "joining"...that it never left: 1) that it has independent legal status; 2) that it does not accept any proxy or surrogate for it; 3) that neither England nor the UK can speak for it, least of all resign its membership, and 4) ergo: that it has never left the EU.

The equation is elegant.

Quill, I can only say this in plain English not legal speak....GB has voted to leave the EU...Scotland is part of GB.
They had the chance to vote for independence last year....they voted overwhelmingly to stay by 55% to 44%.

Now.. if they were granted permission to hold another independence vote (which is unlikely at this time) and they voted to leave the rest of GB, they could perhaps negotiate with the EU to rejoin.......whether the EU would want them back is debatable.

Only 1.6 million voted to stay in the eu while over 2 million have already voted to stay in the UK!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Bullshit... Scotland is part of the uk and the UK is in the eu as the UK... the UK as a whole have voted to.leave the eu... if Scotland don't like it then they have to lump it...

If they really don't like it and want to join the eu on their own then first they must leave the UK... then they must apply to the eu as a new member...

No, no...Scotland has its own Parliament, and is authorized to pass its own laws.  Under the Scotland Act of 1998, it was passed that Scotland is bound to the EU:

BBC News wrote:Clause 29 of the [Scotland Act of 1998], anent legislative competence, empowers the Scottish Parliament to legislate in the devolved areas for which it is responsible - while obliging it to take care that nothing it does is "incompatible" with EU law.

In short, EU law has force in Scotland and, in devolved areas, is enacted and implemented by the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster.

So Scotland has independent status with regard to its connection to the EU.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Bullshit... Scotland is part of the uk and the UK is in the eu as the UK... the UK as a whole have voted to.leave the eu... if Scotland don't like it then they have to lump it...

If they really don't like it and want to join the eu on their own then first they must leave the UK... then they must apply to the eu as a new member...

No, no...Scotland has its own Parliament, and is authorized to pass its own laws.  Under the Scotland Act of 1998, it was passed that Scotland is bound to the EU:

BBC News wrote:Clause 29 of the [Scotland Act of 1998], anent legislative competence, empowers the Scottish Parliament to legislate in the devolved areas for which it is responsible - while obliging it to take care that nothing it does is "incompatible" with EU law.

In short, EU law has force in Scotland and, in devolved areas, is enacted and implemented by the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster.

So Scotland has independent status with regard to its connection to the EU.

However, as part of the UK, Scotland is obliged to leave the EU along with the rest of the UK. The only way it can stay in is to break away, and they need another referendum to do that. If they need permission from Westminster for another referendum, they can only ask and then wait.

They agreed to be subservient to eu law...


Thought they wanted to have control over their own law?


They will get more control being out of eu and in the UK!!!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No, no...Scotland has its own Parliament, and is authorized to pass its own laws.  Under the Scotland Act of 1998, it was passed that Scotland is bound to the EU:



So Scotland has independent status with regard to its connection to the EU.

However, as part of the UK, Scotland is obliged to leave the EU along with the rest of the UK. The only way it can stay in is to break away, and they need another referendum to do that. If they need permission from Westminster for another referendum, they can only ask and then wait.

But...to break away from the EU would ipso facto contemplate lawmaking "incompatible with EU law."  Ergo: Westminster must seek Holyrood's approval and permission, at least to undo section 29.  Without it, Scotland cannot be extracted from the EU legally.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

However, as part of the UK, Scotland is obliged to leave the EU along with the rest of the UK. The only way it can stay in is to break away, and they need another referendum to do that. If they need permission from Westminster for another referendum, they can only ask and then wait.

But...to break away from the EU would perforce contemplate lawmaking "incompatible with EU law."  Ergo: Westminster must seek Holyrood's approval and permission.  Without it, Scotland cannot be extracted from the EU legally.

No, it simply means that any laws they make must be compatible with EU laws whilst the UK is in the EU. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to leave the EU.

Three people are saying the same thing here...Quill knows better though.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

But...to break away from the EU would perforce contemplate lawmaking "incompatible with EU law."  Ergo: Westminster must seek Holyrood's approval and permission.  Without it, Scotland cannot be extracted from the EU legally.

No, it simply means that any laws they make must be compatible with EU laws whilst the UK is in the EU. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to leave the EU.

Unfortunately for your thesis, section 29 does not say that. It is left to the sound judgement of Scotland's Parliament, and only Scotland's Parliament.

Syl wrote:Three people are saying the same thing here...Quill knows better though.

Truth is not a democracy. How many times must I remind you of that?

We could all vote that you (or anyone) don't exist; but would it be true?

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

No, it simply means that any laws they make must be compatible with EU laws whilst the UK is in the EU. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to leave the EU.

Unfortunately for your thesis, section 29 does not say that.  It is left to the sound judgement of Scotland's Parliament, and only Scotland's Parliament.

No - you misunderstand what it means Quill. You don't understand the set up here, what with you being a yank.

Article 50 is part of eu law and will be followed when we leave.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Three people are saying the same thing here...Quill knows better though.

Truth is not a democracy.  How many times must I remind you of that?  

We could all vote that you (or anyone) don't exist; but would it be true?

Scotland voted democratically to remain with the rest of Great Britain Quill.
And that's the truth.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Unfortunately for your thesis, section 29 does not say that.  It is left to the sound judgement of Scotland's Parliament, and only Scotland's Parliament.

No - you misunderstand what it means Quill. You don't understand the set up here, what with you being a yank.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Unfortunately for your thesis, section 29 does not say that.  It is left to the sound judgement of Scotland's Parliament, and only Scotland's Parliament.

No - you misunderstand what it means Quill. You don't understand the set up here, what with you being a yank.

It's the same legislative language in both places. You just have to work your way through it...and no second votes.

Tommy Monk wrote:Article 50 is part of eu law and will be followed when we leave.

But Scotland must first follow it's own law; otherwise, leaving the EU is illegal, and will not be the law in Scotland.

Scotland is bound by uk law.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Truth is not a democracy.  How many times must I remind you of that?  

We could all vote that you (or anyone) don't exist; but would it be true?

Scotland voted democratically to remain with the rest of Great Britain Quill.
And that's the truth.

No question. But that's a separate matter.

Scotland has to respect it's own laws, too. It is the law of Scotland (section 29) that it is constrained by EU law. There is nothing that Westminster can do about the EU--in Scotland-- without Holyrood's reversal of secton 29 of the Scotland Act. That's the situation.

Tommy Monk wrote:Scotland is bound by uk law.

And also by Scottish law.

FFS Quill, the referendum was held in order to determine whether the UK should leave the EU, not whether the UK minus Scotland should leave the UK. Get a grip. I'm off out to watch the footie, so you have plenty of time to come up with more nonsense.

This was a uk wide decision... uk law is paramount here.


Your twisty waffle might work over there in the usa with other idiots... but not here.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

Scotland voted democratically to remain with the rest of Great Britain Quill.
And that's the truth.

No question.  But that's a separate matter.

Scotland has to respect it's own laws, too.  It is the law of Scotland (section 29) that it is constrained by EU law.  There is nothing that Westminster can do about the EU--in Scotland-- without Holyrood's reversal of secton 29 of the Scotland Act.  That's the situation.

This may make it clearer Quill.

https://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/News/can-scotland-stay-in-the-eu-if-the-uk-leaves/1366867335.html

Raggamuffin wrote:FFS Quill, the referendum was held in order to determine whether the UK should leave the EU, not whether the UK minus Scotland should leave the UK. Get a grip. I'm off out to watch the footie, so you have plenty of time to come up with more nonsense.

You guys are not used to thinking legislative matters through, are you? Probably because you have had vicars and kings doing all your thinking for you over the centuries.

Take if from a country that invented and understands constitutional law. Law takes on a 'life'. It is 'alive' law in Scotland right now that Scotland must obey EU law. That 'life' will not die without some edict of the body that enacted it...the Holyrood Parliament.

Y'all expect these things to happen because, in your minds, that's the flow of things, or whatever hippy instinct you follow. Constitutional law moves by pronouncement...it doesn't just happen. That EU law is the law of Scotland is a fact that won't be changed until Scotland changes it.

Until then, the status of the law in Scotland won't change...no matter how much Westminster stomps its foot and bangs its head.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No question.  But that's a separate matter.

Scotland has to respect it's own laws, too.  It is the law of Scotland (section 29) that it is constrained by EU law.  There is nothing that Westminster can do about the EU--in Scotland-- without Holyrood's reversal of secton 29 of the Scotland Act.  That's the situation.

This may make it clearer Quill.

https://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/News/can-scotland-stay-in-the-eu-if-the-uk-leaves/1366867335.html

Seen it, Syl. It's off-point. It answers the questions that you guys have, with your misplaced expectations, but not the real issue. See my post above.

The UK will invoke article 50 and leave the eu.


Scotland is part of the uk and is bound by this uk level action.


End of story!!!

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

This may make it clearer Quill.

https://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/News/can-scotland-stay-in-the-eu-if-the-uk-leaves/1366867335.html

Seen it, Syl.  It's off-point.  It answers the questions that you guys have, with your misplaced expectations, but not the real issue.  See my post above.

My brain is hurting now....both you and Sturgeon (no one else )seem to think Scotland has the right to stay in the EU..so time will tell.

Tommy Monk wrote:The UK will invoke article 50 and leave the eu.


Scotland is part of the uk and is bound by this uk level action.


End of story!!!

The UK Parliament invokes article 50 and the UK leaves the eu... as a whole... including Scotland as part of the uk.


Quite simple!!!

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Seen it, Syl.  It's off-point.  It answers the questions that you guys have, with your misplaced expectations, but not the real issue.  See my post above.

My brain is hurting now....both you and Sturgeon (no one else )seem to think Scotland has the right to stay in the EU..so time will tell.

Look at the leaps of logic that you have just made.  Now take them step-by-step.  Don't just jump to 'Scotland stays a member of the EU'.  

These are the facts, the present status: Step 1: Scotland passed a law saying it must obey EU law; step 2: the UK votes to withdraw from the EU; step 3: even if the UK withdraws from the EU, it remains the law in Scotland that it must obey EU law.  If you are living in Scotland and you are happy with that result, stop here.  Scotland will obey EU law, the rest of the UK can do what it wants.

If you are unhappy with that result, you must change something.  What?  You could remain in the EU; but that's not likely popular in the UK.  You could change Scottish law; but that's not likely given the popularity of the EU in Scotland.  Perhaps you could sever Scotland from the rest of the UK; but that's been tried and the referendum failed.

The default option is that Scotland remains in the EU, and the rest of the UK detaches.  Only if you have exhausted all other options does that become the status; and it's not an option, but a default.

Bullshit!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Bullshit!!!

Hurts, don't it tommy.

@Syl: Who is Sturgeon?

Your stupidity and ignorance is painful...


Sturgon is wee Jimmy krankee!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Your stupidity and ignorance is painful...

Tommy, I don't usually run and tell mommy...and I won't here. But if you can't be civil with other posters, leave. It means you are obviously unhappy. Go...get the fuck out of here.

Tommy Monk wrote:Sturgon is wee Jimmy krankee!!!

I thought she meant another poster, on some other forum. I was interested in connecting up.

Dry your eyes mate...

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

My brain is hurting now....both you and Sturgeon (no one else )seem to think Scotland has the right to stay in the EU..so time will tell.

Look at the leaps of logic that you have just made.  Now take them step-by-step.  Don't just jump to 'Scotland stays a member of the EU'.  

These are the facts, the present status:  Step 1: Scotland passed a law saying it must obey EU law; step 2: the UK votes to withdraw from the EU; step 3: even if the UK withdraws from the EU, it remains the law in Scotland that it must obey EU law.  If you are living in Scotland and you are happy with that result, stop here.  Scotland will obey EU law, the rest of the UK can do what it wants.

If you are unhappy with that result, you must change something.  What?  You could remain in the EU; but that's not likely popular in the UK.  You could change Scottish law; but that's not likely given the popularity of the EU in Scotland.  Perhaps you could sever Scotland from the rest of the UK; but that's been tried and the referendum failed.

The default option is that Scotland remains in the EU, and the rest of the UK detaches.  Only if you have exhausted all other options does that become the status; and it's not an option, but a default.

Which proves again you understand nothing about International law
Scotland is only a part of the EU, due to its Union with the UK.
Its bound by this treaty inshrined in international law.
Scotland had a vote for its independece, knowing again the UK, not Scotland as an entity but the UK would vote later on EU membershiip.
Scotland voted to remain in the Union.
The UK voted to leave the EU.
Not only is the Scottish SNP's ignoring the will and self determination of the Scottish people who voted to remain in the Union, but also ignoring the will and self determination of the British people
Though I have come to expect no less of the left
Only the Uk Government can legislate whether Scotland can hold another referendum for independence
So it would be down to the Uk Government to pass another Referendum Act.
The UK Government can easily agree to another one and set the date in the next 15 years or 30 years, or in the next generation to be fair, as we have only had one 2 years ago.
Scotland voted to remain in the UK, its time people respected the will of the people

Tommy Monk wrote:Dry your eyes mate...

It ain't tears, tommy. It's piss. Dry your necktie, mate.

didge wrote:Scotland is only a part of the EU, due to its Union with the UK.
Its bound by this treaty inshrined in international law.

That is called 'beating a dead horse'.   We know all of that...stop repeating yourself, mortimer .

The UK has an antinomy.  It's a paradox from which has to extricate itself.  They only way it can do that is to fook over Scotland and send troops, or respect it's right to autonomy.

Son, y'all got a problem.

Original Quill wrote:

didge wrote:Scotland is only a part of the EU, due to its Union with the UK.
Its bound by this treaty inshrined in international law.

That is called 'beating a dead horse'.   We know all of that...stop repeating yourself, mortimer .

The UK has an antinomy.  It's a paradox from which has to extricate itself.  They only way it can do that is to fook over Scotland and send troops, or respect it's right to autonomy.

Son, y'all got a problem.

Again its not fault you are clueless and only the UK Governement can enable another Scottish referendum
The scottish voted to remain in the UK, so its about time the left respected the will of the people instead of trying enforce your abhorant dictatorships onto people

Syl wrote:Three people are saying the same thing here...Quill knows better though.

    
OMG ...and that has to be the best scrape the bottom of a barrel for desperation in an attempt to fortify your weak sided POV!   
Syl, and two mental midgets that are always needing remedial assistance and clarification for all their thinking, holy shit that was royal! 
But...hey, I've got 2 rocks in my pocket that have more value then those two combined

4EVER2 wrote:

Syl wrote:Three people are saying the same thing here...Quill knows better though.

    
OMG ...and that has to be the best scrape the bottom of a barrel for desperation in an attempt to fortify your weak sided POV!   
Syl, and two mental midgets that are always needing remedial assistance and clarification for all their thinking, holy shit that was royal! 
But...hey, I've got 2 rocks in my pocket that have more value then those two combined

Wow another post attacking posters and not the points itself and again the left can do this with impunity.