Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Leading Scottish politicians are calling for another referendum on independence from the UK after Britain voted to exit the EU. The Scottish public backed staying in the bloc and former SNP leader Alex Salmond says Scotland should “never leave the EU.”

Salmond made the comments during an interview with Sky News: “The sensible thing for Scotland to do would never be to leave the European Union,” he said.

His comments were backed by the current leader of the SNP, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also backing a second independence vote, after 62 percent of the population voted to remain in Europe. This was against the tide of the rest of the UK where 52 percent voted to leave the bloc.

"Scotland has delivered a strong, unequivocal vote to remain in the EU, and I welcome that endorsement of our European status," Sturgeon said on Friday before the final result was known, as cited by Reuters.

"Scotland has contributed significantly to the Remain vote across the UK. That reflects the positive campaign the SNP fought, which highlighted the gains and benefits of our EU membership, and people across Scotland have responded to that positive message,” she added.
Sturgeon has remained consistent about her threat to call a second referendum. Speaking in April, she said: “The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people.”

In May, Salmond said Scotland would not be pulled out of the EU “against its will.”

https://www.rt.com/uk/348160-scotland-brexit-uk-independence/

Think the song should be 'all by ourselves'

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:15 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But, as we have already covered, that would violate UK law. Section 29 of the Scotland Act compels Scotland to follow EU law. How are you going to get rid of that? Under devolution, you need the permission of Holyrood--Section 28 of the Scotland Act holds: “But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.”

Under devolution (the Sewel Convention) there are two (call them) no-no areas for the UK: 1) those devolved policy areas, and 2) anything that will adjust the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. In either of these areas, the UK must first obtain the permission of Holyrood. Because to change section 29 you are changing the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, the UK must ask Scotland's permission.

It ain't gonna happen, pal. Scotland is not going to grant permission to the UK when, in fact, it would prefer not to leave the EU.
it seems you are getting a tad, as we say here, over tired, what makes you think I am your pal, are you not used to people disagreeing with your mistaken viewpoint?

I could care less, hot-rod. You ever seen a worm on a hot griddle? They writh and twist and go crazy.

Now, what is it about your post that brings that to mind. Laughing

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:16 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:now I am off to the pool and beach to splash around with my toddler who does not have as big hissy fits as #generationSnowflake and their enablers.
I will be back to find out which way you voted in the EU and scottish referenda.

Don't worry. Life will go on without ya. Wink

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're generally an intelligent person Bru, but sucking up to Quill does you no favours. He didn't even know who Nicola Sturgeon was ...

He's not a Brit, he'll never be a Brit, and he knows nothing about being a Brit.

Meh...what does it matter? There is no Brit...no more. There's English, and there's Scottish. But no British.

You forgot Wales and Northern Ireland. At the moment, the Scots are British, but if they leave the UK they won't be. We will still be British though - as much as you hate the idea.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:09 pm

Still such bitterness and hatred from those who don't even live in the UK... or eu...

Most amusing!!!

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Hurts, don't it tommy.

@Syl: Who is Sturgeon?

You're pretending to know all about Scotland and you don't even know who Nicola Sturgeon is?

Yes, but apart from that Quill would make a very good honorary Scot.
He makes up his own laws, seems to hate the English, and is determined to win this battle even though....well, he cant. Razz

Quill....this would be a good avi for you. Wink

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:27 pm

He wants the eu to make all Scotland's laws and for them to have the euro...

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Meh...what does it matter? There is no Brit...no more. There's English, and there's Scottish. But no British.

You forgot Wales and Northern Ireland. At the moment, the Scots are British, but if they leave the UK they won't be. We will still be British though - as much as you hate the idea.

For me, Wales and Northern Ireland are not the issue. The truth is that devolution has been somewhat asymmetrical, with Wales at least taking a different path.

Y'all can call yourselves what you want. But it's time to separate things into their real parts: Scottish, Irish and English. The English are for withdrawal from the EU; Northern Ireland and Scotland are not.

The Scottish path leads directly to the Scottish Parliament. The Sewel Convention requires it. Without Scotland's consent to alter section 29, EU law in Holyrood will still prevail.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You forgot Wales and Northern Ireland. At the moment, the Scots are British, but if they leave the UK they won't be. We will still be British though - as much as you hate the idea.

For me, Wales and Northern Ireland are not the issue. The truth is that devolution has be asymmetrical, with Wales at least taking a different path.

Y'all can call yourselves what you want. But it's time to separate things into their real parts: Scottish, Irish and English. The English are for withdrawal from the EU; Northern Ireland and Scotland are not.

The Scottish path leads directly to the Scottish Parliament. The Sewel Convention requires it. Without Scotland's consent to alter section 29, EU law in Holyrood will still prevail.

It might have escaped your notice but NI and Wales are part of the UK, and Wales is part of Great Britain.

I hope the Scots do fuck off and take you with them. Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 7 3489511464

Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 7 3489511464

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:35 pm

The eu will rule Scotland is you have your way quim...

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:37 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're pretending to know all about Scotland and you don't even know who Nicola Sturgeon is?

Yes, but apart from that Quill would make a very good honorary Scot.
He makes up his own laws, seems to hate the English, and is determined to win this battle even though....well, he cant.
Quill....this would be a good avi for you.

Thank you Syl. That's most inspiring, but I'm not that old Laughing

The laws I read come directly from Westminster and Holyrood. They don't come from me. Say what you want, but de-nile is still only a river in east Africa.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:37 pm

Seriously though, this is the politicians mess, it's ridiculous that the Scots and the English are at loggerheads with each other over the lack of proper government, in firstly securing a fair deal between GB and the EU....and now not having plans in place satisfy ALL of GB.

This in fighting will do a lot more damage to our reputation world wide than the decision to leave.....who can that help?

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Yes, but apart from that Quill would make a very good honorary Scot.
He makes up his own laws, seems to hate the English, and is determined to win this battle even though....well, he cant.
Quill....this would be a good avi for you.

Thank you Syl. That's most inspiring, but I'm not that old

The laws I read come directly from Westminster and Holyrood. They don't come from me. Say what you want, but de-nile is still only a river in east Africa.

And Fantasy was an island where people went to make believe they were something they wasn't. Razz

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:41 pm

Syl wrote:Seriously though, this is the politicians mess, it's ridiculous that the Scots and the English are at loggerheads with each other over the lack of proper government, in firstly securing a fair deal between GB and the EU....and now not having plans in place satisfy ALL of GB.

This in fighting will do a lot more damage to our reputation world wide than the decision to leave.....who can that help?

It's amazing to me that this comes so close on the heels of the Scottish independence vote. It's not your international reputation you need worry about; it's the next Scottish vote.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Seriously though, this is the politicians mess, it's ridiculous that the Scots and the English are at loggerheads with each other over the lack of proper government, in firstly securing a fair deal between GB and the EU....and now not having plans in place satisfy ALL of GB.

This in fighting will do a lot more damage to our reputation world wide than the decision to leave.....who can that help?

It's amazing to me that this comes so close on the heels of the Scottish independence vote. It's not your international reputation you need worry about; it's the next Scottish vote.

If they're allowed to have another referendum of course. I'm not worried about it. If they want to leave the UK, they can leave.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:44 pm

Syl wrote:And Fantasy was an island where people went to make believe they were something they wasn't.

You really ought to be keeping your eye on the ball, and not on me...though, perhaps I'm prettier! Laughing

If you end up with UK law in Westminster and EU law in Holyrood, Brexit will fail. What then?

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:46 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's amazing to me that this comes so close on the heels of the Scottish independence vote. It's not your international reputation you need worry about; it's the next Scottish vote.

If they're allowed to have another referendum of course. I'm not worried about it. If they want to leave the UK, they can leave.

Who cares about another referendum? EU law is anchored in hard cement in Scotland.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:46 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Seriously though, this is the politicians mess, it's ridiculous that the Scots and the English are at loggerheads with each other over the lack of proper government, in firstly securing a fair deal between GB and the EU....and now not having plans in place satisfy ALL of GB.

This in fighting will do a lot more damage to our reputation world wide than the decision to leave.....who can that help?

It's amazing to me that this comes so close on the heels of the Scottish independence vote. It's not your international reputation you need worry about; it's the next Scottish vote.

IF they are granted permission to have another independence referendum you mean?

If so they can do what they should have done last year and vote out this time.

It would be a farce if they voted to stay again....but the way politics are going here anything is possible. Laughing

by nicko Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:47 pm

I fought with a few Scots, with 'em not at them. Good brave soldiers all. They would kick your arse Quill.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If they're allowed to have another referendum of course. I'm not worried about it. If they want to leave the UK, they can leave.

Who cares about another referendum? EU law is anchored in hard cement in Scotland.

There's no way that Scotland will stop the UK leaving the EU. If they want to leave the UK, they can do so.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:And Fantasy was an island where people went to make believe they were something they wasn't.

You really ought to be keeping your eye on the ball, and not on me...though, perhaps I'm prettier!

If you end up with UK law in Westminster and EU law in Holyrood, Brexit will fail. What then?

Brexit wont fail.....and I doubt the EU would want Scotland back anyway.
The rules laid down were once out stay out....and at the risk of repeating whats been said a million times, Scotland voted to stay with the rest of GB....and the overwhelming GB vote was to leave the EU. Cool

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:50 pm

nicko wrote:I fought with a few Scots, with 'em not at them. Good brave soldiers all. They would kick your arse Quill.

What the fook does that matter? Rolling Eyes

I'm a lawyer, not a baby-killer.

I'm just bringing you the bad news.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:50 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You really ought to be keeping your eye on the ball, and not on me...though, perhaps I'm prettier!

If you end up with UK law in Westminster and EU law in Holyrood, Brexit will fail. What then?

Brexit wont fail.....and I doubt the EU would want Scotland back anyway.
The rules laid down were once out stay out....and at the risk of repeating whats been said a million times, Scotland voted to stay with the rest of GB....and the overwhelming GB vote was to leave the EU.

The rest of the UK Syl - NI is in the UK, not GB.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:I fought with a few Scots, with 'em not at them. Good brave soldiers all. They would kick your arse Quill.

What the fook does that matter? I'm a lawyer, not a baby-killer.

I'm just bringing you the bad news.

You mean you're hoping that England will fail. We will not fail - we're English, which makes us much better than some arrogant yank like you. Laughing

by eddie Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:51 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:the EU told her to bugger off as irrelevant today.. there is a thread.

wee jimmy krankie

As your article states, the EU doesn't want to be accused in buggering in UK politics at this early time. That's probably the appropriate response. FCS, your fookin' PM just resigned because of the turmoil surrounding the Brexit vote.

That said, I'd bet the talks are taking place round the back door as we speak.
should you be commenting on either of those topics as you are neither scottish nor british.

see how your comment works now?

He has more British (Scottish) backbone in his blood than you could ever have and knows more about this country than you. At least he never scuttled off to another country and beat his own country down in the way you have.

Oh the shame.

So people that choose to live somewhere else are "scuttling off"?

Irn have you been drinking? I realise you and quill are currently at a Scottish love-in but.....your comments are getting a bit odd.

Psssst. Quill didn't know who Nicola Sturgeon was.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:53 pm

eddie wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

He has more British (Scottish) backbone in his blood than you could ever have and knows more about this country than you. At least he never scuttled off to another country and beat his own country down in the way you have.

Oh the shame.

So people that choose to live somewhere else are "scuttling off"?

Irn have you been drinking? I realise you and quill are currently at a Scottish love-in but.....your comments are getting a bit odd.

Psssst. Quill didn't know who Nicola Sturgeon was.

If Quill is Scottish and lives in the US, then clearly he scuttled off to live in another country. He has a downer on the English, much like Veya - that's to be expected on this forum though.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:53 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You really ought to be keeping your eye on the ball, and not on me...though, perhaps I'm prettier!

If you end up with UK law in Westminster and EU law in Holyrood, Brexit will fail. What then?

Brexit wont fail.....and I doubt the EU would want Scotland back anyway.
The rules laid down were once out stay out....and at the risk of repeating whats been said a million times, Scotland voted to stay with the rest of GB....and the overwhelming GB vote was to leave the EU.

You're not keeping your eye on the ball, Syl. According to the Scotland Act of 1998, section 29, Scotland must still follow EU law.

Deal with that...it was your UK that created it. And Brexit will fail if it's got two pistons firing against each other.

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:54 pm

Maybe the UK should have a referendum to see if we want to get rid of Scotland instead. That could work.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:54 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

So people that choose to live somewhere else are "scuttling off"?

Irn have you been drinking? I realise you and quill are currently at a Scottish love-in but.....your comments are getting a bit odd.

Psssst. Quill didn't know who Nicola Sturgeon was.

If Quill is Scottish and lives in the US, then clearly he scuttled off to live in another country. He has a downer on the English, much like Veya - that's to be expected on this forum though.

But...Brexit is still going to fail.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Maybe the UK should have a referendum to see if we want to get rid of Scotland instead. That could work.

Either way...it may come down to that.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Brexit wont fail.....and I doubt the EU would want Scotland back anyway.
The rules laid down were once out stay out....and at the risk of repeating whats been said a million times, Scotland voted to stay with the rest of GB....and the overwhelming GB vote was to leave the EU.

The rest of the UK Syl - NI is in the UK, not GB.

Yes....I meant UK. Smile

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Maybe the UK should have a referendum to see if we want to get rid of Scotland instead. That could work.

Either way...it may come down to that.

Suits me. I'd vote to get rid of Scotland if they're going to try to tell the English what to do and go against a democratic UK vote.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:58 pm

Syl wrote:Yes....I meant UK.

Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 7 371740092

Your having a hard time thinking England, but speaking UK, aren't you?

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:58 pm

The Scotland Act 1998 was made by whom quim...!?

by eddie Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

So people that choose to live somewhere else are "scuttling off"?

Irn have you been drinking? I realise you and quill are currently at a Scottish love-in but.....your comments are getting a bit odd.

Psssst. Quill didn't know who Nicola Sturgeon was.

If Quill is Scottish and lives in the US, then clearly he scuttled off to live in another country. He has a downer on the English, much like Veya - that's to be expected on this forum though.

But...Brexit is still going to fail.

You know, there seems to be a nasty little undercurrent of bile on here lately.
It feels like some of you want us to fail so, so, badly.
Now....what does that remind me of??

Oh yes. Negative, spiteful and bitter little man syndrome.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If Quill is Scottish and lives in the US, then clearly he scuttled off to live in another country. He has a downer on the English, much like Veya - that's to be expected on this forum though.

But...Brexit is still going to fail.

Do you think if you write it enough times it''ll come true? Honestly Quill you are funny. Laughing

You are on a wind up obviously, but you are just repeating yourself now.
Facts are facts....maybe as a lawyer you don't see that as clearly as we do. Razz

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The Scotland Act 1998 was made by whom quim...!?

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:02 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Yes....I meant UK.

Your having a hard time thinking England, but speaking UK, aren't you?

At least I know who Nicola Sturgeon is. clown

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:02 pm

The Scotland Act 1998 (1998 c. 46) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

And the UK is leaving the eu...

lol!

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The Scotland Act 1998 was made by whom quim...!?

It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The Scotland Act 1998 (1998 c. 46) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

And the UK is leaving the eu...

Doesn't look like Quill has a PhD in Scottish OR UK law. Razz

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:12 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But...Brexit is still going to fail.

You know, there seems to be a nasty little undercurrent of bile on here lately.
It feels like some of you want us to fail so, so, badly.
Now....what does that remind me of??

Oh yes. Negative, spiteful and bitter little man syndrome.

That's why I'm not bothering to actually debate the issues. The spite on here has been a bit of an eye-opener. Even though the anti-English sentiment has always been present on here, it's reached new heights, and there are now very few people on here who I want to debate with at the moment. Cool

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:12 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:The Scotland Act 1998 (1998 c. 46) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

And the UK is leaving the eu...

Doesn't look like Quill has a PhD in Scottish OR UK law.

Your cheerleading, Syl. Good for you. But that isn't what's needed here. What's required here is skill. And you are way out of the loop. Laughing

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

You know, there seems to be a nasty little undercurrent of bile on here lately.
It feels like some of you want us to fail so, so, badly.
Now....what does that remind me of??

Oh yes. Negative, spiteful and bitter little man syndrome.

That's why I'm not bothering to actually debate the issues. The spite on here has been a bit of an eye-opener. Even though the anti-English sentiment has always been present on here, it's reached new heights, and there are now very few people on here who I want to debate with at the moment.

Let's stick to the issues of law, shall we? Eds...we don't need any of your conspiracy theories.

Now, the law is written in black and white. What have any of you to say that refutes the truth, or alters the dilemma?

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

That's why I'm not bothering to actually debate the issues. The spite on here has been a bit of an eye-opener. Even though the anti-English sentiment has always been present on here, it's reached new heights, and there are now very few people on here who I want to debate with at the moment.

Let's stick to the issues of law, shall we? Eds...we don't need any of your conspiracy theories.

Now, the law is written in black and white. What have any of you to say that refutes the truth, or alters the dilemma.

It was me who said that. I can't be bothered to debate anything with you. Your racism against the English is so great that it's clouding your judgement.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:19 pm

Sewel is about devolved powers... not the uk membership of the EU...

The Scotland Act will be changed to remove the need to abide by eu law as will the UK as a whole.

Clutching at straws quim... and you know it!!!

lol!

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Let's stick to the issues of law, shall we? Eds...we don't need any of your conspiracy theories.

Now, the law is written in black and white. What have any of you to say that refutes the truth, or alters the dilemma.

It was me who said that. I can't be bothered to debate anything with you. Your racism against the English is so great that it's clouding your judgement.

Your evading the subject. So would I, if it were going that badly for me.

But it isn't...the issue is law. I've pointed out that the UK has painted itself into a corner. It has an actual antinomy (someone look that world up, fcs). That's not my fault. I'm just the messenger.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Sewel is about devolved powers... not the uk membership of the EU...

The Scotland Act will be changed to remove the need to abide by eu law as will the UK as a whole.

Clutching at straws quim... and you know it!!!

You've gotta think it through, tommy. You should learn to read...it'll help you understand. Practice, practice...practice. Laughing

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Doesn't look like Quill has a PhD in Scottish OR UK law.

Your cheerleading, Syl. Good for you. But that isn't what's needed here. What's required here is skill. And you are way out of the loop.

Whats needed here is a positive attitude re the new start the UK is embarking on....for some reason you are gloating and hoping we will fail, we wont.
I don't pretend to be the forum brain Quill....I always find if EVERYONE writes honestly instead of pretending to be expert on everything...debates move on instead of getting bogged down with crap. Wink

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It was me who said that. I can't be bothered to debate anything with you. Your racism against the English is so great that it's clouding your judgement.

Your evading the subject. So would I, if it were going that badly for me.

But it isn't...the issue is law. I've pointed out that the UK has painted itself into a corner. It has an actual antinomy (someone look that world up, fcs). That's not my fault. I'm just the messenger.

No, the issue is that you're pretending to be Scottish and you're being racist and spiteful towards the English. You know you're talking shite - like you always do.

Do you know who Nicola Sturgeon is yet?

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:25 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

You know, there seems to be a nasty little undercurrent of bile on here lately.
It feels like some of you want us to fail so, so, badly.
Now....what does that remind me of??

Oh yes. Negative, spiteful and bitter little man syndrome.

That's why I'm not bothering to actually debate the issues. The spite on here has been a bit of an eye-opener. Even though the anti-English sentiment has always been present on here, it's reached new heights, and there are now very few people on here who I want to debate with at the moment.

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