Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow

by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Leading Scottish politicians are calling for another referendum on independence from the UK after Britain voted to exit the EU. The Scottish public backed staying in the bloc and former SNP leader Alex Salmond says Scotland should “never leave the EU.”

Salmond made the comments during an interview with Sky News: “The sensible thing for Scotland to do would never be to leave the European Union,” he said.

His comments were backed by the current leader of the SNP, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who is also backing a second independence vote, after 62 percent of the population voted to remain in Europe. This was against the tide of the rest of the UK where 52 percent voted to leave the bloc.

"Scotland has delivered a strong, unequivocal vote to remain in the EU, and I welcome that endorsement of our European status," Sturgeon said on Friday before the final result was known, as cited by Reuters.

"Scotland has contributed significantly to the Remain vote across the UK. That reflects the positive campaign the SNP fought, which highlighted the gains and benefits of our EU membership, and people across Scotland have responded to that positive message,” she added.
Sturgeon has remained consistent about her threat to call a second referendum. Speaking in April, she said: “The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people.”

In May, Salmond said Scotland would not be pulled out of the EU “against its will.”

https://www.rt.com/uk/348160-scotland-brexit-uk-independence/

Think the song should be 'all by ourselves'

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:25 pm

Of course, Quill claims to own a castle in Scotland. That's how much shite he talks. Laughing

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:27 pm

Sewel is about changing devolved powers... these will not be being changed by removing the requirement to follow eu law and changing to uk law...

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:28 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Your cheerleading, Syl. Good for you. But that isn't what's needed here. What's required here is skill. And you are way out of the loop.

Whats needed here is a positive attitude re the new start the UK is embarking on....for some reason you are gloating and hoping we will fail, we wont.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Scotland took another bite at the apple, I admit. But no, that's not my aim here.

The legal problems that I point out would exist even if I didn't. With or without me, the UK is going to run into that telephone pole. Good luck... Wink

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:31 pm

I've just shown your legal claim to be pure bullshit!!!

So where does that leave your argument now...?

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Sewel is about changing devolved powers... these will not be being changed by removing the requirement to follow eu law and changing to uk law...

Tommy, I've patiently explained it to you half a dozen times. I encourage you to learn to read for comprehension.

The Sewel convention is about the implementation of devolution. The Scotland Act is a part of devolution. The Scotland Act of 1998, section 29, incorporates EU law.

That won't go away just because you don't comprehend it.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Whats needed here is a positive attitude re the new start the UK is embarking on....for some reason you are gloating and hoping we will fail, we wont.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Scotland took another bite at the apple, I admit. But no, that's not my aim here.

The legal problems that I point out would exist even if I didn't. With or without me, the UK is going to run into that telephone pole. Good luck...

Scotland are out of the EU....just as we are.
facts are facts. Cool

IF they get a referendum to vote once again for independence and IF the vote is now leave.....they will then have to negotiate with the EU, which is nothing to do with us.
Good luck to them.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:34 pm

Here it is again, tommy. Don't ask anymore:

Qiuill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:37 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I wouldn't be unhappy if Scotland took another bite at the apple, I admit. But no, that's not my aim here.

The legal problems that I point out would exist even if I didn't. With or without me, the UK is going to run into that telephone pole. Good luck...

Scotland are out of the EU....just as we are.
facts are facts.

So what do you suggest we do about section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998?

Syl wrote:IF they get a referendum to vote once again for independence and IF the vote is now leave.....they will then have to negotiate with the EU, which is nothing to do with us.
Good luck to them.

A referendum is beside the point. The law already incorporates EU law. It can't be changed without Holyrood's approval. Good luck.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:38 pm

No... sewel is about devolved powers... not uk membership of eu... which is the only reason for any of us following eu law.

Leaving eu and having uk law as paramount Is nothing to do with changing devolved powers of Scotland...!!!

Scotland are in the UK and the UK are leaving the eu.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 pm

The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... sewel is about devolved powers... not uk membership of eu... which is the only reason for any of us following eu law.

Leaving eu and having uk law as paramount Is nothing to do with changing devolved powers of Scotland...!!!

Scotland are in the UK and the UK are leaving the eu.

Original Quill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:46 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Scotland are out of the EU....just as we are.
facts are facts.

So what do you suggest we do about section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998?

Syl wrote:IF they get a referendum to vote once again for independence and IF the vote is now leave.....they will then have to negotiate with the EU, which is nothing to do with us.
Good luck to them.

A referendum is beside the point. The law already incorporates EU law. It can't be changed without Holyrood's approval. Good luck.

I cannot match your overwhelming sense of superiority in thinking you have found the answer to Scotlands dilemma Quill, so all I can do is say 'Lets wait and see'.

You can be sure in the knowledge that when you are proved wrong, not one Brit will have the capability of crowing and gloating with the same gay abandon as you have shown throughout this thread. Razz

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

Original Quill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

Emphasis added.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:48 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So what do you suggest we do about section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998?

A referendum is beside the point. The law already incorporates EU law. It can't be changed without Holyrood's approval. Good luck.

I cannot match your overwhelming sense of superiority in thinking you have found the answer to Scotlands dilemma Quill, so all I can do is say 'Lets wait and see'.

...thought before action. --Sheldon Wolin

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:52 pm

The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

The UK membership of the EU is a uk parliamentary legislative matter.

by eddie Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:53 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

You know, there seems to be a nasty little undercurrent of bile on here lately.
It feels like some of you want us to fail so, so, badly.
Now....what does that remind me of??

Oh yes. Negative, spiteful and bitter little man syndrome.

That's why I'm not bothering to actually debate the issues. The spite on here has been a bit of an eye-opener. Even though the anti-English sentiment has always been present on here, it's reached new heights, and there are now very few people on here who I want to debate with at the moment.

Let's stick to the issues of law, shall we? Eds...we don't need any of your conspiracy theories.

Now, the law is written in black and white. What have any of you to say that refutes the truth, or alters the dilemma?

I never mentioned a conspiracy Quill.

by Syl Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

Original Quill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

Emphasis added.

It's like groundhog day so.....

Emphasis also added. Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 8 Naughty%20finger

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

The UK will need to repeal or amend section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

Tommy Monk wrote:The UK membership of the EU is a uk parliamentary legislative matter.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament:

Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott , Univ. of London wrote:...the Scotland Act 1998 stipulates that acts of the Scottish Parliament that are incompatible with EU law are outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. ‘EU law’ is defined in s. 126(9) of the Scotland Act 1998, which notably makes no reference to the ECA. This means that ‘EU law’, and obligations deriving from it, have an autonomous meaning for the (non-ECA dependent sections of) the Scotland Act. So s. 29(2)(d) of the Scotland Act 1998 would need to be amended or repealed to bring an end to the impact of EU law in Scotland. Legislation amending the Scotland Act 1998 in this way would have the aim of removing the devolved institutions’ obligation to respect EU law.

Effectively, this would increase the competences of the devolved institutions, thus giving rise to the second limb of the Sewel convention, given that it would be a considerable varying of the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and government. Therefore, amending the Scotland Act would require a legislative consent motion under the Sewel convention.

Scotland will say no, I suspect.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:18 pm

Waffle... amending eu law to uk law on the Scotland act does not affect any devolved powers and does not mean uk is legislating over devolved powers so sewel does not apply.

It's as simple as that!!!

by eddie Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:22 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:The Sewel Convention applies when the UK Parliament legislates on a matter which is normally dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as part of its work.

Original Quill wrote:It's UK law, tommy. The UK will need to repeal or amend the European Communities Act (ECA) of 1972, which is the statute giving domestic effect to EU law in the UK...and, section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998. However, under the Sewel Convention, Westminster may not change any law which varies the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, without its permission.

To alter section 29 would alter the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Ergo: Westminster must come to Holyrood, hat in hand, in order to strike the EU law mandate. Scotland will say no, I suspect.

Emphasis added.

It's like groundhog day so.....

Emphasis also added.

That made me laugh

by Victorismyhero Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:26 pm

umm...the funny thing is.....

Scotland does NOT have a veto

it has to consent or not to certain legislation...

but that consent or not is irrelevant

rather like the 5 year old being dragged to the clinic for his "vaccination" he can refuse his consent all he likes....but it aint going to make any difference.....

by Victorismyhero Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:27 pm

can you imagine it

we refuse to consent to............

yes yes we note that you withold your consent and your objections are noted.....

now piss off.......

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:51 pm

Lord Foul wrote:umm...the funny thing is.....

Scotland does NOT have a veto

it has to consent or not to certain legislation...

but that consent or not is irrelevant

rather like the 5 year old being dragged to the clinic for his "vaccination" he can refuse his consent all he likes....but it aint going to make any difference.....

Brexit: Its Consequences for Devolution and the Union. wrote:...the Scotland Act 1998 stipulates that acts of the Scottish Parliament that are incompatible with EU law are outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. ‘EU law’ is defined in s. 126(9) of the Scotland Act 1998, which notably makes no reference to the ECA. This means that ‘EU law’, and obligations deriving from it, have an autonomous meaning for the (non-ECA dependent sections of) the Scotland Act. So s. 29(2)(d) of the Scotland Act 1998 would need to be amended or repealed to bring an end to the impact of EU law in Scotland. Legislation amending the Scotland Act 1998 in this way would have the aim of removing the devolved institutions’ obligation to respect EU law.

Effectively, this would increase the competences of the devolved institutions, thus giving rise to the second limb of the Sewel convention, given that it would be a considerable varying of the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and government. Therefore, amending the Scotland Act would require a legislative consent motion under the

The English brain is smaller than I thought. No wonder you guys have lost your world hegemony. The little that you can read, you can't comprehend.

And y'all wrote the fookin' law.

Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:03 pm

You are wrong about sewel and the jurisdiction it has...

"...The way the Scotland Act 1998 works is that the Scottish legislature is given powers to make laws, subject to a list of restrictions on those powers. One of those restrictions is that laws cannot ‘relate to’ matters reserved to the UK Parliament. There is a long Schedule setting out the reserved matters. (The Supreme Court in Imperial Tobacco described the areas which are currently reserved to Westminster as having a common theme: “matters in which the United Kingdom as a whole has an interest should continue to be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster”)..."

This is a uk parliamentary matter as it is the uk as a whole that is a member of the EU through uk parliamentary legislation.

The Scotland Act 1998 is also a uk parliamentary act of uk parliamentary legislation.

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

You are wrong about sewel and the jurisdiction it has...

"...The way the Scotland Act 1998 works is that the Scottish legislature is given powers to make laws, subject to a list of restrictions on those powers. One of those restrictions is that laws cannot ‘relate to’ matters reserved to the UK Parliament. There is a long Schedule setting out the reserved matters. (The Supreme Court in Imperial Tobacco described the areas which are currently reserved to Westminster as having a common theme: “matters in which the United Kingdom as a whole has an interest should continue to be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster”)..."

This is a uk parliamentary matter as it is the uk as a whole that is a member of the EU through uk parliamentary legislation.

The Scotland Act 1998 is also a uk parliamentary act of uk parliamentary legislation.

Imperial Tobacco v Lord Advocate [2012] UKSC 61 is inapt because it involved a law of the Scottish Parliament, restricting tobacco related displays. So, it's UK law vs. devolved law. But, the Scotland Act is a law of the UK Parliament itself, as you in fact note in your next paragraph. That's UK law vs. UK law...equal levels. Are you going to argue that the UK Parliament is incapable of trumping itself?

The problem here is not that the UK Parliament cannot reserve powers, but that if the UK Parliament moves to enlarge the powers of the Holyrood Parliament, under the Sewel convention it cannot do so without seeking Holyrood's permission. Ironically, enlarging the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament is one of the 'triggers' for the need for permission.

To remove the adherence to EU law, is to enlarge the legislative competence of Holyrood. Then the permission of the Scottish Parliament must be sought. It is then up to Scotland to grant (or withhold) permission.

That's what this is all about. I doubt Scotland will grant permission to do away with section 29, given that Scotland does not wish to leave the EU. I could be wrong...but I wouldn't bet on it.

by Victorismyhero Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:40 pm

Well...I suppose we could just chuck em out???

or as I suggested earlier remove te barnet formula...that should make em want to move... Rolling Eyes

by Original Quill Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:49 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Well...I suppose we could just chuck em out???

or as I suggested earlier remove te barnet formula...that should make em want to move...

Barnet formula...or send a non-existent aircraft carrier. Or, leave a note on the kitchen table: WE'VE MOVED. GD. LUCK...MOM and DAD. Razz

It doesn't matter how you do it. The important point is, we've arrived at that point. Smile

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:10 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

You are wrong about sewel and the jurisdiction it has...

"...The way the Scotland Act 1998 works is that the Scottish legislature is given powers to make laws, subject to a list of restrictions on those powers. One of those restrictions is that laws cannot ‘relate to’ matters reserved to the UK Parliament. There is a long Schedule setting out the reserved matters. (The Supreme Court in Imperial Tobacco described the areas which are currently reserved to Westminster as having a common theme: “matters in which the United Kingdom as a whole has an interest should continue to be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster”)..."

This is a uk parliamentary matter as it is the uk as a whole that is a member of the EU through uk parliamentary legislation.

The Scotland Act 1998 is also a uk parliamentary act of uk parliamentary legislation.

Imperial Tobacco v Lord Advocate [2012] UKSC 61 is inapt because it involved a law of the Scottish Parliament, restricting tobacco related displays. So, it's UK law vs. devolved law. But, the Scotland Act is a law of the UK Parliament itself, as you in fact note in your next paragraph. That's UK law vs. UK law...equal levels. Are you going to argue that the UK Parliament is incapable of trumping itself?

The problem here is not that the UK Parliament cannot reserve powers, but that if the UK Parliament moves to enlarge the powers of the Holyrood Parliament, under the Sewel convention it cannot do so without seeking Holyrood's permission. Ironically, enlarging the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament is one of the 'triggers' for the need for permission.

To remove the adherence to EU law, is to enlarge the legislative competence of Holyrood. Then the permission of the Scottish Parliament must be sought. It is then up to Scotland to grant (or withhold) permission.

That's what this is all about. I doubt Scotland will grant permission to do away with section 29, given that Scotland does not wish to leave the EU. I could be wrong...but I wouldn't bet on it.

No... try reading the rest of my earlier post...

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:58 am

"...The way the Scotland Act 1998 works is that the Scottish legislature is given powers to make laws, subject to a list of restrictions on those powers. One of those restrictions is that laws cannot ‘relate to’ matters reserved to the UK Parliament..."

UK Parliament decides uk decisions...

The UK is in the eu...

The UK have decided to leave the eu...

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

"...The way the Scotland Act 1998 works is that the Scottish legislature is given powers to make laws, subject to a list of restrictions on those powers. One of those restrictions is that laws cannot ‘relate to’ matters reserved to the UK Parliament..."

UK Parliament decides uk decisions...

The UK is in the eu...

The UK have decided to leave the eu...

You cite the generic philosophy (of the supremacy of UK law), but you fail to mention that under the Sewel convention, it is subject to qualification (permission) of the devolved entity (Scotland). Why would the UK put in the language of section 29, that EU law must apply, if it was contemplating withholding the authority? In other words, why the antimony? Are the English just stupid?

What is more tommy, you don't cite the specific language that creates the restriction on the Sewel convention. Do you think it happens by a wish and a prayer? Is your failure to point out the provision because, in addition to being illogical, it doesn't exist?

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:37 pm

Eu membership is a uk parliamentary matter...

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Eu membership is a uk parliamentary matter...

You keep repeating yourself, tommy. That's not disputed.

The issue is not the supremacy of UK law over the law of a devolved entity. The issue is that the UK itself put in the clause that holds that holds that the legislative competence (jurisdiction, if you will) of Scotland may not be varied without Holyrood's consent.

Again, ironically, to remove the constraint that EU law must be followed, is to increase the scope of Scotland's legislative competence. This requires the permission of Scotland's Parliament:

Brexit: Its Consequences for Devolution and the Union. wrote:In section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Acts of the Scottish Parliament) at the end add –
“(8) But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.”

The Scotland Act is crafted by the UK Parliament, so it's not a question of supremacy of laws. The same law that creates devolution of Scotland, demands that Scotland's Parliament be given power to grant or withhold permission.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:06 pm

You keep repeating yourself... and you are wrong to think what you do...

It is not about changing the devolved powers . Therefore no need to ask... but even this convention is not excluding uk from doing anything...

In your post above...

"But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

Not normally does not mean cannot...

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:12 pm

Nicola Sturgeon has been put in her place.
Other members of the EU are saying they have no wish to deal only with Scotland in the future...the deal was with the UK not Scotland.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You keep repeating yourself... and you are wrong to think what you do...

It is not about changing the devolved powers . Therefore no need to ask... but even this convention is not excluding uk from doing anything...

In your post above...

"But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

Not normally does not mean cannot...

You are now suggesting discarding the Sewel convention, which brings into question the whole devolution of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? How are you going to hold the ship together when its very keel is becoming unhinged?

I'll bet you short-thinkers there in England didn't bargain for this fight. Yet...it's a fight you have set in motion. Your ideas; your law; and now, your Brexit. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Laughing

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:You keep repeating yourself... and you are wrong to think what you do...

It is not about changing the devolved powers . Therefore no need to ask... but even this convention is not excluding uk from doing anything...

In your post above...

"But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

Not normally does not mean cannot...

You are now suggesting discarding the Sewel convention, which brings into question the whole devolution of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? How are you going to hold the ship together when its very keel is becoming unhinged?

I'll bet you short-thinkers there in England didn't bargain for this fight. Yet...it's a fight you have set in motion. Your ideas; your law; and now, your Brexit. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

You simply fail to see the picture here where Scotland, no matter what it does is going to be out of the EU

If it votes for independence it has to apply to join, where countries like Spain, who are against sepratism, will veto them joining.

If they remain, they still will be out of the EU.

With the Uk they will remain with a strong economy and better barganing trading, if not they could be out in the cold for a very long time

So lets happily set Scotland having their independence in motion, because lets face it, they will be fucked

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:19 pm

Syl wrote:Nicola Sturgeon has been put in her place.
Other members of the EU are saying they have no wish to deal only with Scotland in the future...the deal was with the UK not Scotland.

It's really not about personalities...this is not Classic Comics.

Brexit shoots a torpedo right into the foundation of the UK. I'm afraid the whole thing is imploding.

As a political theorist I find it fascinating to watch.

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Nicola Sturgeon has been put in her place.
Other members of the EU are saying they have no wish to deal only with Scotland in the future...the deal was with the UK not Scotland.

It's really not about personalities...this is not Classic Comics.

Brexit shoots a torpedo right into the foundation of the UK. I'm afraid the whole thing is imploding.

As a political theorist I find it fascinating to watch.

You can watch fascinated, but you are offering up nothing of any substance that the Uk can not in fact do very well for itself now.

Lots of huff and bluster, that is it

by eddie Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:22 pm

Syl wrote:Nicola Sturgeon has been put in her place.
Other members of the EU are saying they have no wish to deal only with Scotland in the future...the deal was with the UK not Scotland.

Now we will have fierce scots after us! affraid

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:26 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You are now suggesting discarding the Sewel convention, which brings into question the whole devolution of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? How are you going to hold the ship together when its very keel is becoming unhinged?

I'll bet you short-thinkers there in England didn't bargain for this fight. Yet...it's a fight you have set in motion. Your ideas; your law; and now, your Brexit. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

You simply fail to see the picture here where Scotland, no matter what it does is going to be out of the EU

If it votes for independence it has to apply to join, where countries like Spain, who are against sepratism, will veto them joining.

If they remain, they still will be out of the EU.

With the Uk they will remain with a strong economy and better barganing trading, if not they could be out in the cold for a very long time

So lets happily set Scotland having their independence in motion, because lets face it, they will be fucked

What is your point? Is it, like tommy, that you think devolution should be abandoned?

If the four different political states go their separate ways, Northern Ireland will likely join Ireland, and the rest will be weakened. Wouldn't it be humorous if Ireland turned out to be the big dog of the British Isles?

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

You simply fail to see the picture here where Scotland, no matter what it does is going to be out of the EU

If it votes for independence it has to apply to join, where countries like Spain, who are against sepratism, will veto them joining.

If they remain, they still will be out of the EU.

With the Uk they will remain with a strong economy and better barganing trading, if not they could be out in the cold for a very long time

So lets happily set Scotland having their independence in motion, because lets face it, they will be fucked

What is your point? Is it, like tommy, that you think devolution should be abandoned?

If the four different political states go their separate ways, Northern Ireland will likely join Ireland, and the rest will be weakened. Wouldn't it be humorous if Ireland turned out to be the big dog of the British Isles?

The point is simple, you are making absurd points, not actually caring for the furture of Scotland.
Its simple either way now for Scotland and on both roads leads to being out of the EU.
If they wish to be also independent out of the EU
Then by all means, give them that vote, as its one less problem the rest of the Uk has to then worry about.
As to Northern ireland the matter will still be the same, and being as ireland does a huge amountg of trade with the Uk, joining the South would leave them economically worse off, where as it would leave the Uk without a security issue to deal with anymore, as well as the economic advantages.
You are just throwing in aspects, not backing them up with any data

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:29 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's really not about personalities...this is not Classic Comics.

Brexit shoots a torpedo right into the foundation of the UK. I'm afraid the whole thing is imploding.

As a political theorist I find it fascinating to watch.

You can watch fascinated, but you are offering up nothing of any substance that the Uk can not in fact do very well for itself now.

Lots of huff and bluster, that is it

Scotland should ‘never leave EU’ - calls for new independence vote grow - Page 8 71

Eess no ma yob, man...

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

You can watch fascinated, but you are offering up nothing of any substance that the Uk can not in fact do very well for itself now.

Lots of huff and bluster, that is it

Eess no ma yob, man...

Well what more can I say, immaturity sets in when you have no answer

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:34 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Eess no ma yob, man...

Well what more can I say, immaturity sets in when you have no answer

Are you offering to pay me to step in and fix it? My retainer is expensive. Cool

by eddie Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:35 pm

Quill I love that emoticon!

by Guest Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:36 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well what more can I say, immaturity sets in when you have no answer

Are you offering to pay me to step in and fix it? My retainer is expensive.

Fix your maturity level?

Someone should have taken that measure a very long time ago, it shows it was their failing

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:You keep repeating yourself... and you are wrong to think what you do...

It is not about changing the devolved powers . Therefore no need to ask... but even this convention is not excluding uk from doing anything...

In your post above...

"But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

Not normally does not mean cannot...

You are now suggesting discarding the Sewel convention, which brings into question the whole devolution of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? How are you going to hold the ship together when its very keel is becoming unhinged?

I'll bet you short-thinkers there in England didn't bargain for this fight. Yet...it's a fight you have set in motion. Your ideas; your law; and now, your Brexit. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Wrong again... you seem confused about what the devolved powers are and the supremacy of uk parliament...

Eu membership is not a devolved power.

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:38 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Nicola Sturgeon has been put in her place.
Other members of the EU are saying they have no wish to deal only with Scotland in the future...the deal was with the UK not Scotland.

It's really not about personalities...this is not Classic Comics.

Brexit shoots a torpedo right into the foundation of the UK. I'm afraid the whole thing is imploding.

As a political theorist I find it fascinating to watch.

It's about facts too....and the fact is Scotland do not have the right to stay in the EU....or even rejoin the EU if they had a referendum to be independent.... now the UK have opted to exit.
Something you have argued against since last Thursday.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You are now suggesting discarding the Sewel convention, which brings into question the whole devolution of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? How are you going to hold the ship together when its very keel is becoming unhinged?

I'll bet you short-thinkers there in England didn't bargain for this fight. Yet...it's a fight you have set in motion. Your ideas; your law; and now, your Brexit. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Wrong again... you seem confused about what the devolved powers are and the supremacy of uk parliament...

Eu membership is not a devolved power.

Tommy, if you don't put your brain in gear, I'm going to just ignore you.

EU membership is a subscription, not a political organization. Scotland is a devolved organization. Scotland has options that Brexit stupidly ignored...completely spaced out. And they were options that the UK itself devised. How does your left hand not know what the right hand is doing?

Now, stop talking prattle or drop out, tommy.

by Original Quill Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:47 pm

Syl wrote:the fact is Scotland do not have the right to stay in the EU

To the contrary, the UK commanded it. Read section 29 of the Scotland Act of 1998, enacted by Westminster.

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