God's Mentality

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GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

Original Quill wrote:I think what you are saying veya, and you too edds, is not that god does not exist, but that  he is irrelevant.  That is certainly the end point of GIG's thesis: If god set things in motion, but he no longer alters things, he is irrelevant.

I can live with that, though I see no reason to posit a god in the first place.  I do think that is what you two are saying, but you are afraid to say it directly, is that god is a myth.  He doesn't exist.

I just go the final step.  Honestly, I believe that god was someone's charismatic grandfather, about whom someone (Moses?) wrote with admiration and affection.  As a myth, he took on a being in the thoughts of mankind.  Maybe Abrams listened at the knee of a grandfather, who projected back to some garden he planted, and who gave guiding light to him.  Woven in were the stories of floods, which may indeed have been real.  People enslaved and freed...also possibly real.

That is my vision.  I don't believe in god, but I do believe that these were folk tales that made a god paramount.  And so the momentum went on to David and Solomon, on down to the New Testament.

There I think things went out of control.  Organized people, who knew the power of myths, took over.  Then things went surreal.  Paul was a real fantasizer, and Constantine saw the benefit at a time of crisis.

I am interested in the reality of Jesus as a historian of political theory, myself.  That's why I am fascinated in the Gnostic Gospels.  The story of Jesus was  co-opted by some flim-flam men in the 3rd-century, who wrote the New Testiment.  I want to to know what really happened to the man and the cast of characters.

Actually Quill, I am saying One god is highly improbable, and faiths of multiple gods (polytheists) don't place gods at the same height, they are not faultless omnipotent things. they are just forces that exist (much like gravity). My gods are not irrelevant (the sun is indeed crucial for life) they just don't care about me any more than I care about an ant.

As far as I am concerned I am already certain the Biblical god is incorrect So I don't really bother with it any more.  I seek enlightenment in the older religions and science.

If you want to ask where gods come from well forget Jesus... completely modern youngster that he is. the Rainbow serpents has been around for 20 times as long (literally 20 times longer)

Look Ben, you can believe in yourself without having to have some greater meaning. To exist is all we have.

If you can make something out of that, it is great. You know, Aristotle did, de Vinci did, Locke did, Rousseau did, on down to Einstein. They did it all with out a reference to a supreme being.

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:I think what you are saying veya, and you too edds, is not that god does not exist, but that  he is irrelevant.  That is certainly the end point of GIG's thesis: If god set things in motion, but he no longer alters things, he is irrelevant.

I can live with that, though I see no reason to posit a god in the first place.  I do think that is what you two are saying, but you are afraid to say it directly, is that god is a myth.  He doesn't exist.

I just go the final step.  Honestly, I believe that god was someone's charismatic grandfather, about whom someone (Moses?) wrote with admiration and affection.  As a myth, he took on a being in the thoughts of mankind.  Maybe Abrams listened at the knee of a grandfather, who projected back to some garden he planted, and who gave guiding light to him.  Woven in were the stories of floods, which may indeed have been real.  People enslaved and freed...also possibly real.

That is my vision.  I don't believe in god, but I do believe that these were folk tales that made a god paramount.  And so the momentum went on to David and Solomon, on down to the New Testament.

There I think things went out of control.  Organized people, who knew the power of myths, took over.  Then things went surreal.  Paul was a real fantasizer, and Constantine saw the benefit at a time of crisis.

I am interested in the reality of Jesus as a historian of political theory, myself.  That's why I am fascinated in the Gnostic Gospels.  The story of Jesus was  co-opted by some flim-flam men in the 3rd-century, who wrote the New Testiment.  I want to to know what really happened to the man and the cast of characters.

Actually Quill, I am saying One god is highly improbable, and faiths of multiple gods (polytheists) don't place gods at the same height, they are not faultless omnipotent things. they are just forces that exist (much like gravity). My gods are not irrelevant (the sun is indeed crucial for life) they just don't care about me any more than I care about an ant.

As far as I am concerned I am already certain the Biblical god is incorrect So I don't really bother with it any more.  I seek enlightenment in the older religions and science.

If you want to ask where gods come from well forget Jesus...  completely modern youngster that he is. the Rainbow serpents has been around for 20 times as long (literally 20 times longer)

I think you just need to go one step further. Neither of us need a god. All I have is me, my ass, and the line I can draw around it. Same with you. Start with that and make something of it .

Original Quill wrote:Look Ben, you can believe in yourself without having to have some greater meaning.  To exist is all we have.

If you can make something out of that, it is great.  You know, Aristotle did, de Vinci did, Locke did, Rousseau did, on down to Einstein.  They did it all with out a reference to a supreme being.

That is what I am all about. I can come up with much better reasons to be nice than the notion that Sky Daddy will punish me otherwise ... what a piss-poor motivation to be a good person.

I find the idea that I control my own purpose far more exhilarating than the idea that some old frowning man with a beard (who has never made himself plain to me) controls my purpose.

"All I have is me, my ass, and the line I can draw around it. Same with you. Start with that and make something of it."

... might have to become my new sig

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:I think what you are saying veya, and you too edds, is not that god does not exist, but that  he is irrelevant.  That is certainly the end point of GIG's thesis: If god set things in motion, but he no longer alters things, he is irrelevant.

I can live with that, though I see no reason to posit a god in the first place.  I do think that is what you two are saying, but you are afraid to say it directly, is that god is a myth.  He doesn't exist.

I just go the final step.  Honestly, I believe that god was someone's charismatic grandfather, about whom someone (Moses?) wrote with admiration and affection.  As a myth, he took on a being in the thoughts of mankind.  Maybe Abrams listened at the knee of a grandfather, who projected back to some garden he planted, and who gave guiding light to him.  Woven in were the stories of floods, which may indeed have been real.  People enslaved and freed...also possibly real.

That is my vision.  I don't believe in god, but I do believe that these were folk tales that made a god paramount.  And so the momentum went on to David and Solomon, on down to the New Testament.

There I think things went out of control.  Organized people, who knew the power of myths, took over.  Then things went surreal.  Paul was a real fantasizer, and Constantine saw the benefit at a time of crisis.

I am interested in the reality of Jesus as a historian of political theory, myself.  That's why I am fascinated in the Gnostic Gospels.  The story of Jesus was  co-opted by some flim-flam men in the 3rd-century, who wrote the New Testiment.  I want to to know what really happened to the man and the cast of characters.

Actually Quill, I am saying One god is highly improbable, and faiths of multiple gods (polytheists) don't place gods at the same height, they are not faultless omnipotent things. they are just forces that exist (much like gravity). My gods are not irrelevant (the sun is indeed crucial for life) they just don't care about me any more than I care about an ant.

As far as I am concerned I am already certain the Biblical god is incorrect So I don't really bother with it any more.  I seek enlightenment in the older religions and science.

If you want to ask where gods come from well forget Jesus...  completely modern youngster that he is. the Rainbow serpents has been around for 20 times as long (literally 20 times longer)

And I'm still saying those gods were invented to be the answers to questions we couldn't answer for ourselves at the time.

But you guys have me at a disadvantage, as I don't imagine you've both had too much cognac right now ... whereas I'm about to fall asleep at my desk.

Ben wrote:... might have to become my new sig Smile

Old saying I invented to describe myself and how I feel. I have been using for some 25-years. You can have it. I'm pleased if it connects with someone.

Ben wrote:But you guys have me at a disadvantage, as I don't imagine you've both had too much cognac right now ...

As long as it's Remy Martin, go for it. Much of my inspiration has come from such a bottle.

Gotta get some sleep. You too Ben.

See ya, veya. Your day is just beginning.

Cheers.

Original Quill wrote:

Ben wrote:But you guys have me at a disadvantage, as I don't imagine you've both had too much cognac right now ...

As long as it's Remy Martin, go for it.  Much of my inspiration has come from such a bottle.

Oh God, it's this crap called Salignac, tastes like leather, like a damn baseball glove. Remy Martin would definitely be preferable, and I also like Hennessy -- made by one of the Wild Geese who went on to greatness

Eilzel wrote:

eddie wrote:I have yet to comprehend  why people are amazed that God let's animals and people die!
Of course they must!

If humans didn't die, why enjoyment would we get from knowing that we could just do what we liked and never die? How would any of us appreciate the sun, the moOn, a flower, the joy from a baby's laugh, the neck of a swan, the ripple on a pond......

We die, so we don't take life for granted.

God created us and let us have free will.
And this is what we have done with it: look around at all the good and bad.

That's very poetic Eds. But it doesn't explain why 1000s of people, including small children who haven't lived enough to truly appreciate most things, are brutally killed in natural disasters. It doesn't explain why millions of the same have to die of wasteful, painful diseases. It doesn't explain why there are parasitical insects that can burrow into living human flesh leading to slow, agonizing death.

I wont even add things like war, famine or human caused problems since you will justify those millions of deaths as 'human' caused- and so, astonishingly, nothing to with a possible 'god'.

Of course people 'must die'. And they would; from the process of aging mostly. But people dying in those natural horrors mentioned above, which are NOTHING to do with human causes, is uneconomic (from a creation pov); cruel (from a creation pov) and unfair (from a creation pov).

Of course people must die. But if they die before the age of even 5 then what have they ever lived for? And why so many evil, wicked people live wonderful lives till ripe old age on the opposite end?

IF there is a God; he or she is one cruel, sinister, twisted son of bitch   

Sorry I can't contribute more at this time, but I would like a response on this from eds x

I don't have a problem with any non religious views on God, but they still miss the difficult points, so what do you think of God with these factors in my quote?

Ben_Reilly wrote:Don't want to argue with you all night because I like you, so much comes down to that

But yeah, while thankful to the cow and the corn, I don't burden myself with the idea they existed to help sustain me. I don't burden myself with the idea that people I knew who died just weren't destined for something, while I was -- I know that instead, no, I've just been lucky. I've been in circumstances where second and meters saved my life, but I don't ascribe that to anything but sheer dumb luck. I didn't deserve it more; the people who died didn't deserve it less.

To me, that's what mystery means. Even if we don't think we believe in the gods of monotheism, we often succumb to its notions of fate and destiny. Embrace the chaos

@ben
well it is only 4:30 pm here          

Don't worry Ben, it doesn't offend me I am not a Christian ::smthg::  (and i was joking about the Infidel thing        I consider you a friend too      ) I seek enlightenment and what better way to refine it than bounce ideas off a worthy mind  :::grouch:: :::grouch:: :::grouch:: 

I don't see existence as fate but a path we travel to seek and learn. Death is just the first step to rebirth.

I think also while you start from a Christian, I actually start from a Buddhist. I never really been to Church and have disagreed with bible god for as long as i can remember because, dinosaurs    but as a younger man I did study Buddhism and would say i was closer to calling myself that than any other religion. SO my starting point is reincarnation and the notion of spiritual growth over lifetimes across multiple dimensions. Fate/destiny means less when considered to occur in this life or the next  and that goes double when the next life may not be on this earth or even in this dimension.  ::%:: 

I should also add i am not a Buddhist because i sort of believe that spiritual existence is like a 'wild place' in a constant circle of life and death, Buddhists (particularity later Buddhists) suggest there is order (like the cities of man) while i believe it is much more chaotic. My gods might just be 'souls' that have lived many more lives than us before.

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


Actually Quill, I am saying One god is highly improbable, and faiths of multiple gods (polytheists) don't place gods at the same height, they are not faultless omnipotent things. they are just forces that exist (much like gravity). My gods are not irrelevant (the sun is indeed crucial for life) they just don't care about me any more than I care about an ant.

As far as I am concerned I am already certain the Biblical god is incorrect So I don't really bother with it any more.  I seek enlightenment in the older religions and science.

If you want to ask where gods come from well forget Jesus...  completely modern youngster that he is. the Rainbow serpents has been around for 20 times as long (literally 20 times longer)

I think you just need to go one step further.  Neither of us need a god.  All I have is me, my ass, and the line I can draw around it.  Same with you.  Start with that and make something of it .

While I like your saying      but I believe Enlightenment is more than an arms length away   

I am not nice because of any deity I am nice (or cruel) because i choose to be    my gods are not nice and kind they are somewhat chaotic like the oceans, the winds and wild beasts. I don't believe in heaven or hell but other planes of existence where different sets of lessons are taught.
......And Eilzel I believe that answers your question to Eddie   the babe had little to learn on this plane

And Science (Lawrence Krauss) agrees with me in part...
Stars (like our sun) are the real 'Jesus'



@Quill
I hope you like the debate-a-faith game  :D :D :D :D  I quite enjoy it    
You can expect some very different arguments from me than a Christian    (as Ben already knows   ::roglol:: ) I hope you will find it more challenging   ::=|Q:: 


All in good fun
 :asdrnkbudsas: :asdrnkbudsas: :asdrnkbudsas: :asdrnkbudsas: :asdrnkbudsas: :asdrnkbudsas:

@les
Parasitic insects  might have very powerful gods  ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: 

I quite like to consider the following

The famous Xenophanes fragment runs as follows:

   If horses or oxen or lions had hands

   or if they could draw with their hands and

        produce works like men,

   horses would draw the figures of the gods as

   similar to horses, and oxen as similar to oxen,

       and they would make the bodies

   of the sort which each of them had.

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2011/10/on-the-gods-of-horses.html#sthash.XUInM4mT.dpuf

It is a really good article and i recommend reading but I'll post the point of it

We may call this the sociological theory of religion.  As the dominant religion of the culture varies with time and geography, the conceptions of the divine held by individuals will also vary.  So far, this is only a descriptive point, but it is often deployed as a criticism of religion.  The presumption seems to be that one’s conception of the divine should not be determined by simple contingencies.  And so the more one’s theology is the product of time and chance, the less confident one should be that it is correct.  The determining factors are sociological and historical, not rational.

However, once we make this observation about our images of the divine, we can subject the whole of our theology to the same criticism.  It’s not just conceiving god with a long beard that’s in trouble; conceiving of god as rational, loving, and good may be projections as well.

That answers the question from your own belief point veya (which is eclectic I must say haha) but not what eddie seems to be describing.

Btw veya, are your gods eternal? Did they have a creator?

I'll get back to you on parasites

Eilzel wrote:That answers the question from your own belief point veya (which is eclectic I must say haha) but not what eddie seems to be describing.

Btw veya, are your gods eternal? Did they have a creator?

not sure i am still seeking enlightenment after all  :ashmmmas: 

But I hypothesis that they are born and die. like everything else including stars. I am really not sure I sort of lean towards 'gods' being ancient 'souls' that have passed the lesson of this dimension.

Sort of like how Siddhartha Gautama (first Buddha) has essentially become a god even though he preached that others should not worship him but emulate him and seek enlightenment for themselves. Rather confusing/ironic but that is why i am not a Buddhist   

Thus is makes sense that the earliest gods of man were Animals as other species have been around a lot longer than man. (the reason for my preference for the rainbow serpent)

Star may have even greater 'souls' that have passed the lessons of many dimensions thus their extraordinary long life spans and the benevolence of their existence.

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

stardesk wrote:GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you  spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

I'll add While I feel i am getting closer to enlightenment I don't believe i will achieve it in this life time   a few good forum battles should help  ::hndbg:: 

what people are incorrectly assuming is that god is somehow responsible for these natural disaster and that his reason for them is to kill

if that were true then why do we always hear of some survivor clinging to a log for 10 days??

if god has the power to make natural disasters happen and his desire is to use them to kill then everyone he wanted dead would BE dead

smelly_bandit wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

but he didn't give us free will we stole it      you cant have free will with out knowledge of options    unless he is ALL knowing and ALL powerful (the only way you could say he gave us the what we stole and were kicked out of Eden for) in which case there is still no free will because he already knows what you will answer before he asks the question. what is he point of test is the examiner already knows your results.

      too easy      

smelly_bandit wrote:what people are incorrectly assuming is that god is somehow responsible for these natural disaster and that his reason for them is to kill

if that were true then why do we always hear of some survivor clinging to a log for 10 days??

if god has the power to make natural disasters happen and his desire is to use them to kill then everyone he wanted dead would BE dead

Smelly read a bible    it clearly says GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING including floods storms and natural disasters and Christians have already answered the other part about the guy that survives 'he was destine by god' he didn't want that ONE guy dead but he wanted him to experience the catastrophe. After all he is ALL knowing and ALL powerful (according to the bible)

Thanks Les
I think you may have gotten me a step closer

'the gods are aspirations of this dimension'

veya_victaous wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:what people are incorrectly assuming is that god is somehow responsible for these natural disaster and that his reason for them is to kill

if that were true then why do we always hear of some survivor clinging to a log for 10 days??

if god has the power to make natural disasters happen and his desire is to use them to kill then everyone he wanted dead would BE dead

Smelly read a bible    it clearly says GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING including floods storms and natural disasters and Christians have already answered the other part about the guy that survives 'he was destine by god' he didn't want that ONE guy dead but he wanted him to experience the catastrophe. After all he is ALL knowing and ALL powerful (according to the bible)

it says that does it??

is that a disclaimer in the beginning or an actual verse that ive somehow missed??

  

veya_victaous wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

but he didn't give us free will we stole it      you cant have free will with out knowledge of options     unless he is ALL knowing and ALL powerful (the only way you could say he gave us the what we stole and were kicked out of Eden for) in which case there is still no free will because he already knows what you will answer before he asks the question. what is he point of test is the examiner already knows your results.

      too easy      

yes thats a very simplistic way of viewing it and shows that you haven't really thought that much into.

for that perspective its not surprising that you don't believe in freewill

luckily that is not the only way of viewing or understanding it.

however is it really worth my effort to attempt to explain it to you?? somehow i doubt you would want your preconceived ideas challenged by a different line of thinking

god forbid you think outside the box for a change

smelly_bandit wrote:
what people are incorrectly assuming is that god is somehow responsible for these natural disaster and that his reason for them is to kill

if that were true then why do we always hear of some survivor clinging to a log for 10 days??

if god has the power to make natural disasters happen and his desire is to use them to kill then everyone he wanted dead would BE dead.
-------------------------------
Hi Smelly, it's not so much a question of God causing disasters, but his not caring to stop the disasters. If he created everything then he had/has the ability to stop them, but he didn't and doesn't. I've said this before, there have been 5 major extinctions which surely he could have stopped. Why allow those extinctions to polish off millions of wildlife which he supposedly created? Either he doesn't give a damn, or he is incapable of doing so. All in all, a sad bunny.

stardesk wrote:smelly_bandit wrote:
what people are incorrectly assuming is that god is somehow responsible for these natural disaster and that his reason for them is to kill

if that were true then why do we always hear of some survivor clinging to a log for 10 days??

if god has the power to make natural disasters happen and his desire is to use them to kill then everyone he wanted dead would BE dead.
-------------------------------
Hi Smelly, it's not so much a question of God causing disasters, but his not caring to stop the disasters. If he created everything then he had/has the ability to stop them, but he didn't and doesn't. I've said this before, there have been 5 major extinctions which surely he could have stopped. Why allow those extinctions to polish off millions of wildlife which he supposedly created? Either he doesn't give a damn, or he is incapable of doing so. All in all, a sad bunny.

if everything has got to come to an end, why would God want to stop it...

again if every creature survived the planet would be so full no one could move..lol

::lightsab:: 


So you  took no victims  last night then Favva?..according to OH , you went straight home without sprouting?...

Pheew!...at least some would be victims were spared for a night then?...

I thought the both of you would be waking back home hand in hand,dripping of blood.

no it was the moonlight shift, had a back log of repairs and three companies wanting mobile contract for their workers, a very lucrative evening...

and no blood shed...lol

smelly_bandit wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

Fair point, but that does not mean that god does not act.  In Deuteronomy 29:29 god holds back some things:

Moses wrote:The Lord our God has secrets known to no one.  We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.

So he does not give up free will for himself, but he also grants free will of a limited sort to man.  It seems, he sort of bifurcates the world and existence, and keeps control of the secrets (the word is interchangeable with mystery). At least, that's the way Moses describes it.

i don't think its an act of interference the way it would be if he used his powers to stop a natural disaster

if god is a creator and has created the entire universe then it stands to reason that there would be many mysteries that we are not privy to

the idea of holding onto secrets is "knowledge is power" if god created the universe then i doubt he would need the power that comes with withholding knowledge

the Creator, created the universe in an act of will. Within that act of creation was EVERYTHING that is was, is and yet shall be. Every happening is inevitable at a gross level...that is to say it was INEVITABLE life should evolve It was/is inevitable that INTELLIGENT life should evolve, however the "form" of that life is not determined. disasters and progress are inevitable...but not the form of those disasters or the form of that progress.

the whole universe is predicated upon something akin to a huge computer program, the whole universe exists SOLEY due to mathematical relationships, physical constants and such like.

NOW when the creator made the universe physical..i.e called it into existence, he knew his presence within that universe would disrupt it out of existance, since s/he is timeless and dimensionless (i.e does not obey the "rules" that run the universe.

One rule that is paramount in the physical universe is that anything not forbidden by the "rules" is mandatory, and as a consequence of THAT it is also mandatory that that which exists in the universe is bound by the "rules"

so the universe can exist as a "bubble of time and dimension" within a dimensionless and timeless "whatever is beyond the boundaries of the universe" BUT it Cannot exist having within itself a timeless dimensionless entity.

therefor the creator has cast the die, setting the wheels of everything in motion, but he is powerless to change the program now running. You see...there IS one thing that can bind the creator....the creator himself. He has constrained, by his design, his ability to "interfere". to do so would so fundamentally change his "program" as to render it in effect useless.

He knows the start...he even knows the end result...I think the little twists and turns along the way may well surprise him...

As a result of this evolution is inevitable, good and bad are just things that happen....it is quite true...shit happens...dont blame the creator...its a consequence of living in a mathematical universe.....he didnt MAKE it happen, neither can he make it NOT happen.

the creator cannot put his hand through the "arch of time" to do so would destroy his creation...

what is the purpose i hear you ask.....

Well I might tell you if you do ask.....

Ok, to be honest vic that sounds to me like just hypothesizing a god to fit and avoid the difficult questions- but at least 'your' god is admittedly flawed and never really cared about the the condition of the life his creation...

And I will ask- what is the purpose of 'your god'?

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:no it was the moonlight shift, had a back log of repairs and three companies wanting mobile contract for their workers, a very lucrative evening...

and no blood shed...lol

You've obviously not found the two victims your wife left in the cupboard Favva!...




And she went though their pockets first ! ::troll:: 

I doubt the validity of you idea of flawed Eil, constrained by his own rules yes, flawed no.
his/her pupose?

to allow to "become", the ONE THING he cannot create, another of his like.
he cannot create an equal...created will always be just that a creation, slave to the creator, a lesser being.
However something that "becomes" like the creator can be(come) the equal to him.
everyone of us "becomes" more that we were every second . tomorow we will be more than we are today.

the philosophy behind that is immensely difficult to get into words in a limited medium like forums, and involves some mind boggling concepts...

the creator is timeless and dimensionless so is everywhere and everyWHEN at the same instant. (To him all points are one and all time is one...So in the instant of creation...he is/was/will be at the end of all ...) So he , at the instant of creation also got the end result, HOWEVER he still HAS to let the "program" run...or the end result will not happen....Ok so I know thats as clear as mud...however trying to get these ideas on paper so to speak is difficult....

Eilzel wrote:Ok, to be honest vic that sounds to me like just hypothesizing a god to fit and avoid the difficult questions- but at least 'your' god is admittedly flawed and never really cared about the the condition of the life his creation...

And I will ask- what is the purpose of 'your god'?

fuck my life

there is no answer given that you can ever accept so stop trying to pretend like you are a reasonable person

victor gives a decent answer and your response is the equally shallow : " thats sounds like waffle to me"

give it a rest you idiot

we get it

you don't believe in god but blame him for all the worlds evils and thats why you hate the god you don't believe in

well done you're just like every other confused atheist out there

FYI your questions??? aren't that difficult

smelly you are a fool

do you not understand the concept that we can read the bible and understand it and still not believe it.

Again you are taking Shit, you are trying to suggest thing that contradict the bible making you blasphemous. God is all powerful god is all knowing god created everything, is what the bible says I don't agree with it but that is still what is in the bible.

SO Do you believe the Bible or are you agnostic too? IF you believe the Bible than Accept GOD Causes all those bad things, stop being so full of shit and just fall back on the same excuse Christians have been using for a thousand years "we cannot understand the will of the divine"

victorisnotamused wrote:the Creator, created the universe in an act of will. Within that act of creation was EVERYTHING that is was, is and yet shall be. Every happening is inevitable at a gross level...that is to say it was INEVITABLE life should evolve It was/is inevitable that INTELLIGENT life should evolve, however the "form" of that life is not determined. disasters and progress are inevitable...but not the form of those disasters or the form of that progress.

the whole universe is predicated upon something akin to a huge computer program, the whole universe exists SOLEY due to mathematical relationships, physical constants and such like.

NOW when the creator made the universe physical..i.e called it into existence, he knew his presence within that universe would disrupt it out of existance, since s/he is timeless and dimensionless (i.e does not obey the "rules" that run the universe.

One rule that is paramount in the physical universe is that anything not forbidden by the "rules" is mandatory, and as a consequence of THAT it is also mandatory that that which exists in the universe is bound by the "rules"

so the universe can exist as a "bubble of time and dimension" within a dimensionless and timeless "whatever is beyond the boundaries of the universe" BUT it Cannot exist having within itself a timeless dimensionless entity.

therefor the creator has cast the die, setting the wheels of everything in motion, but he is powerless to change the program now running. You see...there IS one thing that can bind the creator....the creator himself. He has constrained, by his design, his ability to "interfere". to do so would so fundamentally change his "program" as to render it in effect useless.

He knows the start...he even knows the end result...I think the little twists and turns along the way may well surprise him...

As a result of this evolution is inevitable, good and bad are just things that happen....it is quite true...shit happens...dont blame the creator...its a consequence of living in a mathematical universe.....he didnt MAKE it happen, neither can he make it NOT happen.

the creator cannot put his hand through the "arch of time" to do so would destroy his creation...

what is the purpose i hear you ask.....

Well I might tell you if you do ask.....

A far more logical explanation of a monotheist deity than the bible. heartening to see a post that is both intelligent and 'spiritually aware'  

But Victor you do know that God cannot be surprised IF he is All knowing.

Also Can you confirm your beliefs, are your Christian agnostic  


What is the Purpose? does there need to be one?   

Original Quill wrote:I think what you are saying veya, and you too edds, is not that god does not exist, but that  he is irrelevant.  That is certainly the end point of GIG's thesis: If god set things in motion, but he no longer alters things, he is irrelevant.

I can live with that, though I see no reason to posit a god in the first place.  I do think that is what you two are saying, but you are afraid to say it directly, is that god is a myth.  He doesn't exist.

I just go the final step.  Honestly, I believe that god was someone's charismatic grandfather, about whom someone (Moses?) wrote with admiration and affection.  As a myth, he took on a being in the thoughts of mankind.  Maybe Abrams listened at the knee of a grandfather, who projected back to some garden he planted, and who gave guiding light to him.  Woven in were the stories of floods, which may indeed have been real.  People enslaved and freed...also possibly real.

That is my vision.  I don't believe in god, but I do believe that these were folk tales that made a god paramount.  And so the momentum went on to David and Solomon, on down to the New Testament.

There I think things went out of control.  Organized people, who knew the power of myths, took over.  Then things went surreal.  Paul was a real fantasizer, and Constantine saw the benefit at a time of crisis.

I am interested in the reality of Jesus as a historian of political theory, myself.  That's why I am fascinated in the Gnostic Gospels.  The story of Jesus was  co-opted by some flim-flam men in the 3rd-century, who wrote the New Testiment.  I want to to know what really happened to the man and the cast of characters.

Interesting quill, but I do think He set things in motion and then said "let's seem what you've got, oh my creations!"

I did have at least a couple of "spiritual" happenings - I don't mean washy-washy crap, but true happenings, that have convinced me of a greater power.

I don't see God as an almighty being that is casting down lightening strikes upon people. Why would he? We do that to ourselves!
Perhaps he thought "I'll create a paradise on earth and see if Man turns it into a Heaven or a Hell"

I don't think he sits in judgement.

I see him as a loving, patient parent who has let his children roam free, confident in their return as having learned life's lessons.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

Smelly, I totally agree.

eddie wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

that is of course correct and relates to the issue of free will

if god were to interfere then it would end freewill for ever

Smelly, I totally agree.

So parting a fucking sea and rescuing the Israelites from from certain death at the hands of the Egyptians doesn't count as intervention?

What am I missing here?

Creating a global flood to wipe out almost all life? Coming to earth to live as a man?

Really, what would count as intervention if these things do not?

Arguing over who God is is alike arguing over who Batman is. We're talking about something that someone made up. Something that no evidence exists for. We might as well be talking about whether the Loch Ness Monster has fins or not.

Fucking bullshit, I don't accept that I'm supposedly, somehow limited in my thinking or small-minded because I don't believe in fucking leprechauns ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arguing over who God is is alike arguing over who Batman is. We're talking about something that someone made up. Something that no evidence exists for. We might as well be talking about whether the Loch Ness Monster has fins or not.

Fucking bullshit, I don't accept that I'm supposedly, somehow limited in my thinking or small-minded because I don't believe in fucking leprechauns ...

Bruce Wayne    Obviously it has fins    And you'll never find their gold with that attitude     

^victor, by flawed I mean limited, your God cannot be all powerful with the restraints you attribute to him. By the way you never answered about the purpose.

^smelly, if you are going to salivate as you stalk my contributions could you at least have the decency to do without being an arsehole? I admit I probably wont change my mind, unless I found proof that I have been wrong all this time. But that isn't the point, it is the duscussion if the concepts I find fascinating and worthwhile in itself- something you seem incapable of understanding...

^ eddie, you are proving rather elusive to my first question on this page- I'm not discussing free will, but something else. I do feel that for many living in a country where major natural disasters are nonexistant and at a time when science has wiped out many once lethal diseases has nulled the idea of just how brutal this world is, making it easier to believe in 'a god' who provides all these wonderful things in life

why do non believers always join in on the religious threads ??

If you don't believe why don't you just debate something else

Because the subject remains interesting Dibs, perhaps you don't understand that people can be interested in something while not believing in it. Do you know what professional academics and intellectuals do? Haha

Ben_Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:

Smelly, I totally agree.

So parting a fucking sea and rescuing the Israelites from from certain death at the hands of the Egyptians doesn't count as intervention?

What am I missing here?

uh

Moses parted the red sea and the Israelites used their own feet to walk out of Egypt

youre really clutching at straws here

veya_victaous wrote:smelly you are a fool

do you not understand the concept that we can read the bible and understand it and still not believe it.

Again you are taking Shit, you are trying to suggest thing that contradict the bible making you blasphemous. God is all powerful god is all knowing god created everything, is what the bible says I don't agree with it but that is still what is in the bible.

SO Do you believe the Bible or are you agnostic too? IF you believe the Bible than Accept GOD Causes all those bad things, stop being so full of shit and just fall back on the same excuse Christians have been using for a thousand years "we cannot understand the will of the divine"

not sure what youre trying to tell me but im going to make use of this for future reference

"God is all powerful god is all knowing god created everything, is what the bible says I don't agree with it but that is still what is in the bible"

thanks for the help