God's Mentality

GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

I have yet to comprehend why people are amazed that God let's animals and people die!
Of course they must!

If humans didn't die, why enjoyment would we get from knowing that we could just do what we liked and never die? How would any of us appreciate the sun, the moOn, a flower, the joy from a baby's laugh, the neck of a swan, the ripple on a pond......

We die, so we don't take life for granted.

God created us and let us have free will.
And this is what we have done with it: look around at all the good and bad.

Hi Eddie. Yes indeed there is a lot of good around us. I get a lot of pleasure from bird watching and animals. There are many beautiful places on Earth, but you surely must agree that there is an opposite scenario to all that beauty. To my mind and reasoning both positive and negative events are natural, you can't have one without the other. Yes, everything has its day and dies. Our sun, and consequently our planet and the solar system, is half way through its life-cycle. One day it will all die.

It is thoughts like that, and the resultant understanding, which lead me to question Creation, and God's mentality. To create beauty and then disaster to counteract that beauty, is beyond reason. I've mentioned in other topics how God, in Biblical accounts, demonstrates an evil and vindictive side to his nature.

Hi stardesk, hope you're well (had meant to say hi in my above post lol)

I don't think you can have good without evil? I'm not sure I buy the fact that God is 'evil' or destructive, I think he has made something and created man (not that I buy the whole bible story) and then sat back and said "you have free will, now run and use it wisely, I love you"

And this is what we have created.

eddie wrote:I have yet to comprehend  why people are amazed that God let's animals and people die!
Of course they must!

If humans didn't die, why enjoyment would we get from knowing that we could just do what we liked and never die? How would any of us appreciate the sun, the moOn, a flower, the joy from a baby's laugh, the neck of a swan, the ripple on a pond......

We die, so we don't take life for granted.

God created us and let us have free will.
And this is what we have done with it: look around at all the good and bad.

That's very poetic Eds. But it doesn't explain why 1000s of people, including small children who haven't lived enough to truly appreciate most things, are brutally killed in natural disasters. It doesn't explain why millions of the same have to die of wasteful, painful diseases. It doesn't explain why there are parasitical insects that can burrow into living human flesh leading to slow, agonizing death.

I wont even add things like war, famine or human caused problems since you will justify those millions of deaths as 'human' caused- and so, astonishingly, nothing to with a possible 'god'.

Of course people 'must die'. And they would; from the process of aging mostly. But people dying in those natural horrors mentioned above, which are NOTHING to do with human causes, is uneconomic (from a creation pov); cruel (from a creation pov) and unfair (from a creation pov).

Of course people must die. But if they die before the age of even 5 then what have they ever lived for? And why so many evil, wicked people live wonderful lives till ripe old age on the opposite end?

IF there is a God; he or she is one cruel, sinister, twisted son of bitch   

stardesk wrote:GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you  spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

Strict Christians say, never question god.  I think this is why.  To question him is to point out his flaws.  Perhaps the garden was the metaphor for never question.

This is one problem with having a monotheism.  The Greeks and the Romans had multifarious entities, responsible for conflicting events and conflicting motives.

One of the guiding dualisms of preSocratic philosophy was, stasis and change.  While atomism came about to explain flux, a kind of external change, it merely shifted the question because the atom is itself a singularity.  Even a sphere has two parts: a center and a perimeter.  To suppose a true singularity is to make no allowance for change.

I think in our personification of an hebrew/Christian/Muslim monotheistic god, we tend to account for change in our notions of mood.  Look how much we account for change by god's indecisiveness.  In Genesis 18, god is confronted with the "wicked sinners" of Sodom and Gomorrah.  God  revealed to Abraham that he would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, because their cry was great, "and because their sin is very grievous."  Genesis 18:20.  Witness the equivocation of god:

Genesis wrote:In response, Abraham inquired of the LORD if he would spare the city if 50 righteous people were found in it, to which the LORD agreed he would not destroy it for the sake of the righteous yet dwelling therein. Abraham then inquired of God for mercy at lower numbers (first 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, and finally at 10), with the LORD agreeing each time.[Genesis 18-33] Two of the angels proceeded to Sodom and were met by Abraham's nephew Lot, who convinced the angels to lodge with him, and they ate with Lot.

Classic negotiation, but look how god was shown to change his mind...and frequently.  Of course, the story ended with god not having found even 10 righteous people in the city, and the angels commanded Lot to gather his family and leave, whereupon Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

But, nonetheless the bible is replete with change coming about because of changes in god's mood.  Indeed, look at the story of Abraham and Isaac...again, god changes his mind.  Genesis 22, 5-8.  Isaac was all but gone, and god had a change of heart.  We see that throughout the bible.  God, we are told, is omniscient and omnipotent, but god has a change of mind.

Original Quill wrote:Strict Christians say, never question god.  I think this is why.  To question him is to point out his flaws.  Perhaps the garden was the metaphor for never question.

This is one problem with having a monotheism.  The Greeks and the Romans had multifarious entities, responsible for conflicting events and conflicting motives.

One of the guiding dualisms of preSocratic philosophy was, stasis and change.  While atomism came about to explain flux, a kind of external change, it merely shifted the question because the atom is itself a singularity.  Even a sphere has two parts: a center and a perimeter.  To suppose a true singularity is to make no allowance for change.

I think in our personification of an hebrew/Christian/Muslim monotheistic god, we tend to account for change in our notions of mood.  Look how much we account for change by god's indecisiveness.  In Genesis 18, god is confronted with the "wicked sinners" of Sodom and Gomorrah.  God  revealed to Abraham that he would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, because their cry was great, "and because their sin is very grievous."  Genesis 18:20.  Witness the equivocation of god:

Genesis wrote:In response, Abraham inquired of the LORD if he would spare the city if 50 righteous people were found in it, to which the LORD agreed he would not destroy it for the sake of the righteous yet dwelling therein. Abraham then inquired of God for mercy at lower numbers (first 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, and finally at 10), with the LORD agreeing each time.[Gen 18-33][33] Two of the angels proceeded to Sodom and were met by Abraham's nephew Lot, who convinced the angels to lodge with him, and they ate with Lot.

Classic negotiation, but look how god was shown to change his mind...and frequently.  Of course, the story ended with god not having found even 10 righteous people in the city, and the angels commanded Lot to gather his family and leave.

But, nonetheless the bible is replete with change coming about because of changes in god's mood.  Indeed, look at the story of Abraham and Isaac...again, god changes his mind.  Genesis 22, 5-8.

test my word, Christians study the word for truth....

what is a "strict" Christian???

Don't waste your time in meaningless questions.  Pay attention.

GIG wrote:
God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

GIG, I think you are wrong to paint god as deterministic.  Think about it...if s/he were deterministic, then s/he couldn't be omnipotent, could s/he?  S/he would have set things in motion, and then lost control.  No, god must be a free agent in order for him or her to be omnipotent.

Strict Christians (lol) do a lot of twisting themselves up in their own logic.  Better to leave god a free agent, and give him or her a moral personality.  

S/he changes his/her mind a lot.

Original Quill wrote:Don't waste your time in meaningless questions.  Pay attention.

GIG wrote:
God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

GIG, I think you are wrong to paint god as deterministic.  Think about it...if s/he were deterministic, then s/he couldn't be omnipotent, could s/he?  S/he would have set things in motion, and then lost control.  No, god must be a free agent in order for him or her to be omnipotent.

Strict Christians (lol) do a lot of twisting themselves up in their own logic.  Better to leave god a free agent, and give him or her a moral personality.  

S/he changes his/her mind a lot.

so basically you make a stupid generalisation that you cannot even defend..lol , that seems about right..

strict Christian, thats as funny as organised religion...  

just because you know all the answers does not mean you would stop people doing what they wish, not stopping people doing what they wish does not mean you cannot...

God gave man dominion over all things..it is up to people what they do with that..  

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Don't waste your time in meaningless questions.  Pay attention.


GIG, I think you are wrong to paint god as deterministic.  Think about it...if s/he were deterministic, then s/he couldn't be omnipotent, could s/he?  S/he would have set things in motion, and then lost control.  No, god must be a free agent in order for him or her to be omnipotent.

Strict Christians (lol) do a lot of twisting themselves up in their own logic.  Better to leave god a free agent, and give him or her a moral personality.  

S/he changes his/her mind a lot.

so basically you make a stupid generalisation that you cannot even defend..lol , that seems about right..

strict Christian, thats as funny as organised religion...  

"Stupid?" "Cannot defend?" You're sounding a bit desperate, GIG. Are you afraid to discuss Christian theology with me?

GIG wrote:just because you know all the answers does not mean you would stop people doing what they wish, not stopping people doing what they wish does not mean you cannot...

God gave man dominion over all things..it is up to people what they do with that..  

So god takes away free will from himself, but leaves free will to man? Awkward. God must have been pretty nervous for a millennium or two, there. Why would god undergo all of this creativity, and then break his own legs (incapacitate his own free will) at the moment of truth?

Besides, if god left himself with no spontaneous power to change things, how did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

Original Quill wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

so basically you make a stupid generalisation that you cannot even defend..lol , that seems about right..

strict Christian, thats as funny as organised religion...  

"Stupid?"  "Cannot defend?"  You're sounding a bit desperate, GIG.  Are you afraid to discuss Christian theology with me?

GIG wrote:just because you know all the answers does not mean you would stop people doing what they wish, not stopping people doing what they wish does not mean you cannot...

God gave man dominion over all things..it is up to people what they do with that..  

So god takes away free will from himself, but leaves free will to man?  Awkward.  God must have been pretty nervous for a millennium or two, there.  Why would god undergo all of this creativity, and then break his own legs (incapacitate his own free will) at the moment of truth?

Besides, if god left himself with no spontaneous power to change things, how did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

God never left himself without anything, he has the power to do as he pleases, he leaves people to the freedom of choice ..

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

"Stupid?"  "Cannot defend?"  You're sounding a bit desperate, GIG.  Are you afraid to discuss Christian theology with me?



So god takes away free will from himself, but leaves free will to man?  Awkward.  God must have been pretty nervous for a millennium or two, there.  Why would god undergo all of this creativity, and then break his own legs (incapacitate his own free will) at the moment of truth?

Besides, if god left himself with no spontaneous power to change things, how did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

God never left himself without anything, he has the power to do as he pleases, he leaves people to the freedom of choice ..

So why is he incapable of changing the course of events he put into motion? Let's go back to that part, and begin over.

Original Quill wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

God never left himself without anything, he has the power to do as he pleases, he leaves people to the freedom of choice ..

So why is he incapable of changing the course of events he put into motion?  Let's go back to that part, and begin over.

he isn't incapable he just chooses not too, for what ever reason...he has set a time for the end and when that time comes he will judge...

Good evening all. When I started this topic I wondered if anyone would respond, and indeed you have, so thanks a lot.

Onward: God, being the powerful deity that he is supposd to be, who knows the past, present, and future, must surely have known what Satan was like and how he would entice Eve. Why did God sit back and let this happen, instead of stepping in and eliminating Satan, thereby saving mankind from thousands of years of hate, prejudice, war?

To be blunt, I've said only recently in another topic how God displays a nasty, vindictive streak, as displayed in the account of the Israelites wars on their way to the Promised Land. It is accounts like that which lead me to believe that He is not worthy of being praised and worshipped. There are many stories in the Bible where He displays that negative attitude towards His own creations.

stardesk wrote:Good evening all. When I started this topic I wondered if anyone would respond, and indeed you have, so thanks a lot.

Onward: God, being the powerful deity that he is supposd to be, who knows the past, present, and future, must surely have known what Satan was like and how he would entice Eve. Why did God sit back and let this happen, instead of stepping in and eliminating Satan, thereby saving mankind from thousands of years of hate, prejudice, war?

To be blunt, I've said only recently in another topic how God displays a nasty, vindictive streak, as displayed in the account of the Israelites wars on their way to the Promised Land. It is accounts like that which lead me to believe that He is not worthy of being praised and worshipped. There are many stories in the Bible where He displays that negative attitude towards His own creations.

free will, he had technically made adam and eve as believers, they had a choice to stay that way, he gave them that choice...

Gigatt, you say that God gave Adam and Eve a choice. I have to disagree with you on that point. Consider if you will that it wasn't until Adam partook of the tree of knowledge that he 'became aware of his nakedness.' Now this passage speaks volumes to me that prior to that event he and Eve were not aware of themselves as free-thinking individual human beings. Mentally, they would have been no different to animals, at the beck and call of their master. Having woken up their minds, their individuality, they then realised they had freedom to make their own decisions. This is what upset God. He no longer had his pets, (shall we call them?).

Made Adam and Eve as believers, well that wasn't too hard, was it? They believed in God (so the story goes) in the same way I believe in this computer that I'm using to send this post.

It'd be weird if they didn't believe in God after having lengthy conversations with him, hearing him going for little strolls through the Garden of Eden, etc.

Indeed Ben, they believed in God for one simple reason, they didn't know any difference. This is why I believe a comprehensive education is important. Teaching science and evolution as well as religion should be practiced in all schools and colleges. Sadly, in the US over 40% of schools refuse to teach evolution. All this does is stagnate a child's mentality, they grow up biased and closed minded. utterly wrong and shoudn't happen in this day and age.

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

stardesk wrote:GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you  spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

That's exactly why I have said. He made man and gave him free will.
The rest is man's doing.


I think, the problem for most people is this: they have to have a definite answer when it comes to God, and if they can't find a logical one it must mean that god doesn't exist.

Original Quill wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

God never left himself without anything, he has the power to do as he pleases, he leaves people to the freedom of choice ..

So why is he incapable of changing the course of events he put into motion?  Let's go back to that part, and begin over.

Why would he?

As forum users, we have been debating for years, the best way to run a forum.
Truth is, the best way is to set it up, and fuck off and let the forum run it's natural way.
People will either fuck it up, or they won't, you'll have good posters, bad posters.
Some people will get outed and banned by Mods (fate) and some won't.
Some people will turn against posters and posters will bail out and die a forum death, and some will hang on fighting.

God is admin without doing any posting.


   can't get a more simplistic approach than that.

eddie wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

That's exactly why I have said. He made man and gave him free will.
The rest is man's doing.


I think, the problem for most people is this: they have to have a definite answer when it comes to God, and if they can't find a logical one it must mean that god doesn't exist.

Eddie, have also read your latest comment, I have to reply to this over the other, not that is in any less worthy, just easier for the Plebs......

I cannot disagree. To not have an equation or forumula or spread sheet code means it is it not possible, does not compute, therefore irrelevant, non existent. I disagree and not all can be logically explained.

If that were the case why on earth did God invent Man.....

He needed something to do with his spare time that he could not see go to waste.......

We are now trying to work out God's code for DIY weekends.......

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

stardesk wrote:GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you  spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

So what are Miracles? Noah's flood, the resurrection of Jesus, commanding Moses....... you are talking out your bung hole   

Sorry Eddie   
you may believe that BUT the bible clearly says otherwise.

If you want to abandon the theology of Christianity for more open Agnosticism then your good to believe what ever you want.... but as GIG and VOD have said many times Christians Believe what is in the Bible   

veya_victaous wrote:

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

stardesk wrote:GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you  spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.

i have said so many times to you but you just don't want to accept the answer...

God set all things in motion, he has not interfered since...

So what are Miracles? Noah's flood, the resurrection of Jesus, commanding Moses.......  you are talking out your bung hole   

Wow, so much to add to that list of stories of God interfering. There's parting the Red Sea, giving the 10 Commandments, ordering several genocides, hardening a Pharaoh's heart so he'd be sure not to obey God, striking people dead, lifting people into heaven before they died, making and revising dietary laws, speaking to many prophets, impregnating a 14-year-old girl, being born from said girl, casting demons into pigs, turning water into wine, feeding masses with miracles, getting himself executed, going to hell ... not exactly an absentee landlord, that one.

gerber wrote:

eddie wrote:

That's exactly why I have said. He made man and gave him free will.
The rest is man's doing.


I think, the problem for most people is this: they have to have a definite answer when it comes to God, and if they can't find a logical one it must mean that god doesn't exist.

Eddie, have also read your latest comment, I have to reply to this over the other, not that is in any less worthy, just easier for the Plebs......

I cannot disagree.  To not have an equation or forumula or spread sheet code means it is it not possible, does not compute, therefore irrelevant, non existent.  I disagree and not all can be logically explained.

If that were the case why on earth did God invent Man.....

He needed something to do with his spare time that he could not see go to waste.......

We are now trying to work out God's code for DIY weekends.......

Some people need something in black and white.
Some people need a man in a lab coat to say "We've looked and here's our answer..."
Some people don't have faith in something they can't see or taste or touch.

veya_victaous wrote:Sorry Eddie   
you may believe that BUT the bible clearly says otherwise.

If you want to abandon the theology of Christianity for more open Agnosticism then your good to believe what ever you want.... but as GIG and VOD have said many times Christians Believe what is in the Bible   

I not talking about religion.
Religion is an entirely different thing to God.

not really.... Faith is different than Religion but if you want to suggest there is ONLY one god or that there is Definitely Any gods you are starting on theology.

No men in Lab coats have said Muru the Spirit Roo or the Great Rainbow Serpent are definitely true.

Some people don't have faith in something they can't see or taste or touch.

Gravity? there are forces accepted by science that are beyond our immediate senses.


... But I agree there are Infidels (like Ben         ) that have no faith in anything greater than ourselves.... but oddly agree with gravity.

Veya, I see religion as man-made and bent into all sorts of shapes to suit whatever one is wearing at any given time. The hypocrisy of religion is beyond ridiculous and the thought that an almighty being/spirit/light/vapour/whatever would care whether we pray or dance on a hilltop or kill a million non-believers is downright laughable!

Even sinning: does He judge and think,up some punishment for them? I don't think so. He wants, needs you to,work it out for yourself as your weakness isn't to scolded or judged, but to be learned from and bettered.

Life is about learning, by going through various stages and dips and dives, you learn that all that really matters is your love and communications and joining of all your fellow people.

If you die and a handful of people can say "She/he truly changed my world, truly touched my soul and brought light to my life" then you have lived a full meaningful life indeed.

@Eddie
So you are agnostic?   

I pretty much agree with what you said, which is why I say Agnosticism is the wisest path as it is not defined by the dogma of men.

The 'Life is for Learning' stuff is Pretty close to Buddhism

Jesus did the bong..but he never had a coke bottle or pipe, I think it was a ceramic jug which he and his mates had narrowed at the neck or something.

veya_victaous wrote:@Eddie
So you are agnostic?   

I pretty much agree with what you said, which is why I say Agnosticism is the wisest path as it is not defined by the dogma of men.

The 'Life is for Learning' stuff is Pretty close to Buddhism

I don't know if I'm agnostic??? I've never thought about it Veya!! I have to bow to your knowledge as I have no idea lol I tend not to label things or people much.

I do like Buddhism though. I guess I feel as though we are here to learn. Not sure about reincarnation either, sometimes I'm sold and other times not so.

Going to look up agnostic now google here I come   

The realization of knowing that “we cannot know everything” is the backbone of the agnostic belief.

Yes I follow this rule for life in general actually.
For everything.

I never believe a whole story as there are variants and nuances depending on who you listen to. But I digress.

God (I'm using this name to describe the higher being) is within my belief system, I can't even say why. It's something I feel and something that has been shown to me on a very personal level a couple of times in my life (I can explain if needs be)

But religion is not about God: it has nothing to do with God. It is a set of rules with God at the beginning of each chapter and heaven as the epilogue.

That doesn't sit comfortably with me .

Agnostic just means you believe in 'something' but not really sure exactly what and don't really believe anyone(major faiths included) truly knows 100%.

I say I'm polytheist agnostic,
I believe there are probably multiple gods but I'm not 100% sure  :\\:[:


.....
Beat me to it.   

veya_victaous wrote:Agnostic just means you believe in 'something' but not really sure exactly what and don't really believe anyone(major faiths included) truly knows 100%.

I say I'm polytheist agnostic,
I believe there are probably multiple gods but I'm not 100% sure  :\\:[:


.....
Beat me to it.    

Hmmm, multiple Gods. What makes you think that? Is it logic? A feeling? Something you read??
You've blown my mind wide open now Veya!   

Not 100% sure guess you could say faith....
I have always been interested in old religions and most of them have multiple gods.

But from a logical side, to me the world seems chaotic full of conflicting and competing forces. it doesn't seem like the world and it's contents are will of one being, but the competing desires of multiple beings, which is why everything doesn't go smoothly.

Plus the vastness of the universe makes more sense if you say deities are tied to planets (or Stars).

Also there is nothing else in the universe that is singular. it is hypothesised that Possibly even our universe is just one of many   so I would say the same of gods.


I would also Add, I see the Gods more as inexplicable forces not beings that watch and judge us. I believe in an afterlife (possibly reincarnation) but I don't think there is judgement just a transition to the next phase.

veya_victaous wrote:not really.... Faith is different than Religion but if you want to suggest there is ONLY one god or that there is Definitely Any gods you are starting on theology.

No men in Lab coats have said Muru the Spirit Roo or the Great Rainbow Serpent are definitely true.

Some people don't have faith in something they can't see or taste or touch.

Gravity? there are forces accepted by science that are beyond our immediate senses.


... But I agree there are Infidels (like Ben         ) that have no faith in anything greater than ourselves.... but oddly agree with gravity.

If I have enough rocket fuel I can make gravity kiss my ass. And I frankly don't see what's so great about believing in something you can't sense or prove     

@ben
Some of us wish to be 'dangerous'

“All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake up in the day to find it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

Or maybe just appreciate the mysterious

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”
― Albert Einstein

veya_victaous wrote:@ben
Some of us wish to be 'dangerous'

“All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake up in the day to find it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

Or maybe just appreciate the mysterious

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”
― Albert Einstein

Those are both great, but I don't think embracing things like that means you have to have some kind of faith. I mean, the source of your second quote was a confirmed atheist, after all. Life and the universe are incredible and mysterious things, but that doesn't require that Goddidit.

The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive. However, I am also not a "Freethinker" in the usual sense of the word because I find that this is in the main an attitude nourished exclusively by an opposition against naive superstition. My feeling is insofar religious as I am imbued with the consciousness of the insuffiency of the human mind to understand deeply the harmony of the Universe which we try to formulate as "laws of nature." It is this consciousness and humility I miss in the Freethinker mentality. Sincerely yours, Albert Einstein.

—Letter to A. Chapple, Australia, February 23, 1954; Einstein Archive 59-405; also quoted in Nathan and Norden, Einstein on Peace P. 510

Pretty sure that makes Him Agnostic, I don't think men like Einstein ever stop questioning the possibilities of the universe.

"Nature hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but not by means of ruse." ("Die Natur verbirgt ihr Geheimnis durch die Erhabenheit ihres Wesens, aber nicht durch List.")

And if the Sun is a God (and it is by Many faiths) and the Sun does provide the conditions required for Life on our planet, why not accept it? you can see/sense even if you cannot explain all of it..... just because it is benevolent does that render it spiritually void?

And what of the Animus? why can we have to near identical molecular structures but one be a 'living' thing and the other be inanimate. What makes the difference between the matter that makes a viruses 'body' and a speck of dust? this does not have to suggest a god but does suggest a soul (even if it is just 'energy that animates' and not a persistent individual form)

I think God is what people who are tired of seeking solutions have always turned to. They do their life's work -- Newton is a great example -- they get towards the end of their lives and their energy, and things don't quite add up or totally make sense, and they say, like Newton did:

" ... The motions which the planets now have could not spring from any natural cause alone but were impressed by an intelligent agent."

He, of course, was proven wrong by future generations of astronomers who did have the time, the energy and the curiosity to seek answers for the problems that came up in Newton's calculus. History continues to show examples of people who finally couldn't answer everything for themselves and settled on a supernatural explanation, only to have fresher minds come along and provide naturalistic solutions to the problems their predecessors couldn't solve.

Our brains seek closure and hate ambiguity, and for good reason. Through most of our history, the ability to ascribe an explanation to an observation, even if it was the wrong explanation, served us much better than to accept not knowing.

If I were a hunter-gatherer on the African savanna 500,000 years ago, and I heard a noise behind me, I would have a higher chance of living long enough to reproduce if I thought, "Lion attack!" and ran for my life, even if I was wrong and it was just the wind -- because sometimes the noise would be a lion attack and my survival would be threatened.

I think that belief in God is ultimately a throw-back to the need to have an answer, even if it's wrong, and that it's something we'll eventually evolve out of. As far as the concept of mystery goes, mystery just means not having all the answers. Resorting to supernatural explanations is not embracing the mysterious, it's just a lazy way out.

what is supernatural about the Sun?
Ao, Ra, Helios, Yhi, Malakbel, Xiuhtecuhtli, Belenos, Zhulong, Sol and Aten
the Sun is/has been a god on Every inhabited Continent   

how could the divine be proven if you cease to consider it divine just because you know something about it? The Sun is Divine (life would not exist with out it) and it exists.

Gods don't have to be creators.

veya_victaous wrote:what is supernatural about the Sun?
Ao, Ra, Helios, Yhi, Malakbel, Xiuhtecuhtli, Belenos, Zhulong, Sol and Aten
the Sun is/has been a god on Every inhabited Continent   

how could the divine be proven if you cease to consider it divine just because you know something about it? The Sun is Divine (life would not exist with out it) and it exists.

Gods don't have to be creators.

Now, now -- all those gods weren't believed to be just a gigantic nuclear reaction, were they? I understand that you distinguish between gods of religion and gods as ideas, but to me that's like arguing whether homophobia gets to be a word It does, by virtue of the fact that a lot of people use it as a word and because crowds are wise.

I understand appreciating the sun for how essential it is to life, but those cultures made the sun into thinking beings with personalities, not just a big campfire for us to huddle around, read by and provide light to grow plants.

I think you're arguing for a very loose definition of "divine." If that's the definition we're going by, then I agree -- we owe our existence to the sun and we should be thankful it exists every day. But why worship something that only sustains you by accident? I might as well worship the cow and corn that went into my tacos.

I understand that people want and perhaps need to think of things bigger than themselves, in order to put themselves into perspective -- I just consider that bigger thing to be the cosmos and all we don't know, and to allow that we are infants in the face of the universe. We've only had proper science for maybe 400 years, that's a blink of the eye of Xiuhtecuhtli (choosing the Mexica version since I've lived most of my life on their land ... ).

I can get behind the idea of a "religion" that doesn't go fundie and start taking Ra, etc. as a literal person. I'm actually a fan of Discordianism, which posits that chaos and order are only distinguished by human thought (and also that everyone's a Pope whether they want to be or not).

I think what you are saying veya, and you too edds, is not that god does not exist, but that he is irrelevant. That is certainly the end point of GIG's thesis: If god set things in motion, but he no longer alters things, he is irrelevant.

I can live with that, though I see no reason to posit a god in the first place. I do think that is what you two are saying, but you are afraid to say it directly, is that god is a myth. He doesn't exist.

I just go the final step. Honestly, I believe that god was someone's charismatic grandfather, about whom someone (Moses?) wrote with admiration and affection. As a myth, he took on a being in the thoughts of mankind. Maybe Abrams listened at the knee of a grandfather, who projected back to some garden he planted, and who gave guiding light to him. Woven in were the stories of floods, which may indeed have been real. People enslaved and freed...also possibly real.

That is my vision. I don't believe in god, but I do believe that these were folk tales that made a god paramount. And so the momentum went on to David and Solomon, on down to the New Testament.

There I think things went out of control. Organized people, who knew the power of myths, took over. Then things went surreal. Paul was a real fantasizer, and Constantine saw the benefit at a time of crisis.

I am interested in the reality of Jesus as a historian of political theory, myself. That's why I am fascinated in the Gnostic Gospels. The story of Jesus was co-opted by some flim-flam men in the 3rd-century, who wrote the New Testiment. I want to to know what really happened to the man and the cast of characters.

There are people who very much think of themselves as Christian and yet who see things like heaven, hell, the great flood and God himself as allegories that are there to help us understand human life and human nature, rather than demanding literal belief.

Actually, this is a good place to point out one of the truly Crazy Things of the Internet that I've come across lately -- the idea that Jesus was invented by Rome to control the populace. It comes to us, of course, from U.S. "libertarians":

http://www.dailypaul.com/302496/ancient-confession-found-we-invented-Jesus-christ-why-governments-create-false-histories-and-false-gods

http://news.discovery.com/history/religion/scholar-claims-Jesus-was-roman-hoax-131011.htm

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:what is supernatural about the Sun?
Ao, Ra, Helios, Yhi, Malakbel, Xiuhtecuhtli, Belenos, Zhulong, Sol and Aten
the Sun is/has been a god on Every inhabited Continent   

how could the divine be proven if you cease to consider it divine just because you know something about it? The Sun is Divine (life would not exist with out it) and it exists.

Gods don't have to be creators.

Now, now -- all those gods weren't believed to be just a gigantic nuclear reaction, were they? I understand that you distinguish between gods of religion and gods as ideas, but to me that's like arguing whether homophobia gets to be a word :)It does, by virtue of the fact that a lot of people use it as a word and because crowds are wise.

I understand appreciating the sun for how essential it is to life, but those cultures made the sun into thinking beings with personalities, not just a big campfire for us to huddle around, read by and provide light to grow plants.

I think you're arguing for a very loose definition of "divine." If that's the definition we're going by, then I agree -- we owe our existence to the sun and we should be thankful it exists every day. But why worship something that only sustains you by accident? I might as well worship the cow and corn that went into my tacos.

I understand that people want and perhaps need to think of things bigger than themselves, in order to put themselves into perspective -- I just consider that bigger thing to be the cosmos and all we don't know, and to allow that we are infants in the face of the universe. We've only had proper science for maybe 400 years, that's a blink of the eye of Xiuhtecuhtli (choosing the Mexica version since I've lived most of my life on their land ... ).

I can get behind the idea of a "religion" that doesn't go fundie and start taking Ra, etc. as a literal person. I'm actually a fan of Discordianism, which posits that chaos and order are only distinguished by human thought (and also that everyone's a Pope whether they want to be or not).

Is it an accident? is it supposed to be somewhere else? How do you know it is just a big camp fire? Stars are born, they age and they die. If has every bit the life cycle of you or me just on a vastly greater scale. we could be like the ants/cockroaches/rats that live off the 'crumbs from the table', Sustained by accident but sustains none the less.

the sun also holds all the planets in their orbit with a huge invisible force (gravity)
and you should be thankful to both the cow and the corn   
Look at Shinto everything from the beetle to pebble to the stream is a god. So is my definition of divine loose or is it just NOT monotheist.

Ben wrote: It comes to us, of course, from U.S. "libertarians"

Why libertarians?  All it takes is some plain thought and reasonable intelligence.

Religion is not that hard to debunk.  What is difficult is, Why does mankind need it?  That's where the real history begins.

Don't want to argue with you all night because I like you, so much comes down to that

But yeah, while thankful to the cow and the corn, I don't burden myself with the idea they existed to help sustain me. I don't burden myself with the idea that people I knew who died just weren't destined for something, while I was -- I know that instead, no, I've just been lucky. I've been in circumstances where second and meters saved my life, but I don't ascribe that to anything but sheer dumb luck. I didn't deserve it more; the people who died didn't deserve it less.

To me, that's what mystery means. Even if we don't think we believe in the gods of monotheism, we often succumb to its notions of fate and destiny. Embrace the chaos

Original Quill wrote:

Ben wrote: It comes to us, of course, from U.S. "libertarians"

Why libertarians?  All it takes is some plain thought and reasonable intelligence.

Religion is not that hard to debunk.  What is difficult is, Why does mankind need it?  That's where the real history begins.

U.S. libertarians are notorious for engaging in motivated reasoning while patting their own backs about how rational they are