Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods

Okay, maybe religious is not the right word, maybe what is better is a god or gods where it does not matter that beliefs is needed in them to exist.

I know a couple of posters on here have a concept of a God or Gods and it occurred to me, what reason is there to even believe in this God or Gods?

If this concept of a God, has an after life and you believe you go onto this after life, then the belief in a God or Gods is not required is it not?

If you believe this God or Gods has no requirement for you to believe that when you pass away you go onto an after life, then what reason really do you have to believe in a God or Gods?


Think about it, your belief is not reliant to pass onto a next world or an after life, so there is no real reason to believe a God exists, unless you feel that this belief is necessary to pass on into this after life does it not?

So your only belief needs only to believe that an after life exists. There is no pass mark to get into this after life in believing in a God or gods and thus there is no real reason why you would then ever need to believe that god or gods exist. The belief or the reason to need to believe in a god is thus redundant.

So I ask this with all sincerity. Of those who believe in this kind of God or Gods, why on earth do you think you need to even believe in a God? Having no belief in this God or Gods that you believe in actually requires no reason to believe in, because it does not have any repercussions if you don't believe.

Others agree or disagree on the point of the reason to believe?

Then what you need to ask yourself, is does an after life even need a God to even exist?

depends on how YOU are interpreting what those who follow this idea consider "god"

I dont usually use the term "god"

rather creator or even more specifically "first one"

the first "truely competent mind"

if youi consider that as "god" then we, every one of us, are gods in the making

darknessss wrote:depends on how YOU are interpreting what those who follow this idea consider "god"

I dont usually use the term "god"

rather creator or even more specifically "first one"

the first "truely competent mind"

Does it really matter what you call this?
The same principle would still apply to the view of an after life and the need to believe in a creator?

Again does an after life necessitate a creator? Even if it does, your belief has no reason to need to believe.
Forget time, it does not exists here and this is just one endless cycle

darknessss wrote:if youi consider that as "god" then we, every one of us, are gods in the making

That would of course depend on how you would define a God.
How can we be gods in the making if we can never obtain that elevation to that level?

ahh see thats the point


the creator well...created

everything

not all at once since much is the product of the "rules of the universe"

the idea was "life"

not life of necessity like we know it...it just happens that thats what happened due to the "laws of nature " if you like

humans are not in any particular manner "special" we could just as well be intelligent lizards

life is just a "training ground " for the "mind" (soul, whatever you wish to call that which is ACTUALLY you)

Our challenge is, as the creator clearly wants (since his rules permit it (see below...its actually compusary)) to "catch him up"

here ya go guys ...heres a universe to play in...now learn and catch me up



it is very deep philosophy at work in this concept didge.....

As you would agree the universe has rules

kinda like a computer program

howver unlike muddy human thinking the universe actually obeys these rules in a quite simplistic manner

things are either forbidden or not forbidden

however it is simpler than that

because, if its NOT forbiden then it is compulsary

that is to say, no matter how odd, unlikely, wrong to human though (as in "thats just wrong") or outright wierd and outta the pan...if it aint forbidden by the laws of the universe...

somewhere , sooner or later, it WILL exist or happen.....

which is why nothing the scientists discover ever surprises me in the least....



I swear one of these days I will post a full on talk about this POV....

but I doubt anyone will get past page 4.......

talking of which......................... SASSY....... hows the reading going.....

Been a bit busy with the election and moving now. Your gonna kill me, but can you pm me the link again, this time I'll download it, it's gone off the bottom of my pms, sorry. Not making excuses, life has been so bloody hectic, moving and an election lol

Loads of subjectivity there Victor, but glad you see my point.

You have to give me a real reason to need to continue to believe in a god, if like as stated there is no more reason to.
Your life does not require that you do believe, so why continue to believe?

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:Loads of subjectivity there Victor, but glad you see my point.

You have to give me a real reason to need to continue to believe in a god, if like as stated there is no more reason to.
Your life does not require that you do believe, so why continue to believe?

It revolves round YOUR concept of a "god"

you are stuck with the "old man on a cloud" syndrome, one whom you (not personally of course) have to appease and obey

the first one is respected...not worshipped

he/she/it ???????? doesnt either need or want worship, has No interest in "mortal affairs" (after all ...if we wipe even this planet out there are plenty more out there )

belief in the creator or first one is simply that....

a beleif that the whole shebang was the result of the actions of the first "truely competant mind"

worship is pointless (not to mention futile), but that doesnt stop you respecting him/her/it ??????????????

the afterlife is a given.....

and its the same for everyone saint and sinner


since there are no sins, nor is anything particularly "virtuous"

thats not to say you cant break mans laws or be "virtuous" purely on a human scale....but these things are irrelevant to your situation after life....


I warn you didge...it gets ummmm....mathematical..........it involves concepts of the mathematical kind which I find very difficult to wrap my head round....even with my background....

however.....

Pretty please Vic?

Ok sassy ...but i now got to search my "old bookmarks file" I'll do it tomorrow....


I only came on here tonite for a quickie really....


was out till 10:45 bunny bashing....


got a freezer full now

actually found it quickly....

PM sent

Rabbit pie, will see if our favourite butcher has some. No, better not, running the freezer down to move, Damn! Thanks Vic and this time I promise I'll download it. If I print it off it will be easier to read. Get a bit crossed eyed on the screen.

Thanks muchly xx

Not got the pm?

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:Okay, maybe religious is not the right word, maybe what is better is a god or gods where it does not matter that beliefs is needed in them to exist.

I know a couple of posters on here have a concept of a God or Gods and it occurred to me, what reason is there to even believe in this God or Gods?

If this concept of a God, has an after life and you believe you go onto this after life, then the belief in a God or Gods is not required is it not?

If you believe this God or Gods has no requirement for you to believe that when you pass away you go onto an after life, then what reason really do you have to believe in a God or Gods?


Think about it, your belief is not reliant to pass onto a next world or an after life, so there is no real reason to believe a God exists, unless you feel that this belief is necessary to pass on into this after life does it not?

So your only belief needs only to believe that an after life exists. There is no pass mark to get into this after life in believing in a God or gods and thus there is no real reason why you would then ever need to believe that god or gods exist. The belief or the reason to need to believe in a god is thus redundant.

So I ask this with all sincerity. Of those who believe in this kind of God or Gods, why on earth do you think you need to even believe in a God? Having no belief in this God or Gods that you believe in actually requires no reason to believe in, because it does not have any repercussions if you don't believe.

Others agree or disagree on the point of the reason to believe?

Then what you need to ask yourself, is does an after life even need a God to even exist?

it is all part of the quest of enlightenment, why try and achieve anything? because you can  

and to me the after life is just another life, we undergo inter-dimensional reincarnation.
and even then our soul is just 'the current grouping of divine energy' all goes back to the great pool to be poured into another vessel.. the continuation of this is that life consumes life (literally filling the vessel with another vessel) or adsorbs the sun's divine energy.
So even upon reincarnation the energy that is my soul will be divided and be parts of other souls so I guess i feel enlightenment is making the current energy of my soul 'greater' allowing me to pass on more spiritual energy to the future when I pass.

God(s) to me are just other vessels of greater magnitude than man.... like the sun    

also I quite like variations of Branes theory, so pretty much believe in the overlaying dimensions as proposed by quantum Physics, which then begs the question of what exists in them. Consider the vastness of the universe and then multiply by infinity that is the potential of reality.

Also in evolution there seem to be both guiding paths and conflicting desires, by the numbers it is not chaos that a divine-less existence would suggest should be.

So it is not that you have to care at all but well to quote Ben
"Why should i care about goes on in the rings of Saturn?"
you don't have to but some of us would like to try and work it out anyway  

I guess part of enlightenment for me in this life has been realizing the irrelevance of it all  

try rabbit burgers....

but make sure you put some fat bacon in with the rabbit or it will be as dry as old boots.....

darknessss wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:Loads of subjectivity there Victor, but glad you see my point.

You have to give me a real reason to need to continue to believe in a god, if like as stated there is no more reason to.
Your life does not require that you do believe, so why continue to believe?

It revolves round YOUR concept of a "god"

you are stuck with the "old man on a cloud" syndrome, one whom you (not personally of course) have to appease and obey

the first one is respected...not worshipped

he/she/it ????????  doesnt either need or want worship, has No interest in "mortal affairs" (after all ...if we wipe even this planet out there are plenty more out there )

belief in the creator or first one is simply that....

a beleif that the whole shebang was the result of the actions of the first "truely competant mind"

worship is pointless (not to mention futile), but that doesnt stop you respecting him/her/it ??????????????

the afterlife is a given.....

and its the same for everyone saint and sinner


since there are no sins, nor is anything particularly "virtuous"

thats not to say you cant break mans laws or be "virtuous" purely on a human scale....but these things are irrelevant to your situation after life....


I warn you didge...it gets ummmm....mathematical..........it involves concepts of the mathematical kind which I find very difficult to wrap my head round....even with my background....

however.....

You are still missing the main point here
I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

Made them, they're great, especially barbequed.

Still no pm Vic

tried again

Me too Victor, look forward to your views on this as this is a good concept to think on.

Cheers

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

darknessss wrote:

It revolves round YOUR concept of a "god"

you are stuck with the "old man on a cloud" syndrome, one whom you (not personally of course) have to appease and obey

the first one is respected...not worshipped

he/she/it ????????  doesnt either need or want worship, has No interest in "mortal affairs" (after all ...if we wipe even this planet out there are plenty more out there )

belief in the creator or first one is simply that....

a beleif that the whole shebang was the result of the actions of the first "truely competant mind"

worship is pointless (not to mention futile), but that doesnt stop you respecting him/her/it ??????????????

the afterlife is a given.....

and its the same for everyone saint and sinner


since there are no sins, nor is anything particularly "virtuous"

thats not to say you cant break mans laws or be "virtuous" purely on a human scale....but these things are irrelevant to your situation after life....


I warn you didge...it gets ummmm....mathematical..........it involves concepts of the mathematical kind which I find very difficult to wrap my head round....even with my background....

however.....

You are still missing the main point here
I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

because that belief is not a "religious" belief

its more the same as I beleive that tomorrow the sun will rise....

or even with my eyes shut i "belive " there is a hand at the end of my arm

or that I belive that if I step in front of a fast moving vehicle i will shortly find out if I am right

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

darknessss wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:Loads of subjectivity there Victor, but glad you see my point.

You have to give me a real reason to need to continue to believe in a god, if like as stated there is no more reason to.
Your life does not require that you do believe, so why continue to believe?

It revolves round YOUR concept of a "god"

you are stuck with the "old man on a cloud" syndrome, one whom you (not personally of course) have to appease and obey

the first one is respected...not worshipped

he/she/it ????????  doesnt either need or want worship, has No interest in "mortal affairs" (after all ...if we wipe even this planet out there are plenty more out there )

belief in the creator or first one is simply that....

a beleif that the whole shebang was the result of the actions of the first "truely competant mind"

worship is pointless (not to mention futile), but that doesnt stop you respecting him/her/it ??????????????

the afterlife is a given.....

and its the same for everyone saint and sinner


since there are no sins, nor is anything particularly "virtuous"

thats not to say you cant break mans laws or be "virtuous" purely on a human scale....but these things are irrelevant to your situation after life....


I warn you didge...it gets ummmm....mathematical..........it involves concepts of the mathematical kind which I find very difficult to wrap my head round....even with my background....

however.....

You are still missing the main point here
I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

well turn this on it's head.. do you believe in the Sun? when that Sun has no actual need to be believed in?
Believing in something and something being real are not a relationship of dependance.

Why believe in evolution? when evolution has no actual need to be believed in? DNA, genes etc will all exist if you believe in them or not
HF may not believe in Evolution but he is still a product of it

or, to put it another way


as a result of an amount of time spent cogitating on the subject I am of the understanding that..................................................

darknessss wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:


You are still missing the main point here
I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

because that belief is not a "religious" belief

its more the same as I beleive that tomorrow the sun will rise....

or even with my eyes shut i "belive " there is a hand at the end of my arm

or that I belive that if I step in front of a fast moving vehicle i will shortly find out if I am right

Which still takes belief in that god, when there is no need.
You actually do have a good idea, in fact 99.999999999999999999999999999% chance the sun will rise, you have no such knowledge or possibility that a god exists, so it is not even the same in thinking is it?
You see all the things you claim and can prove them, you cannot with your belief in a god.
So again, what reason do you even need to believe?

Until tomorrow

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

darknessss wrote:

because that belief is not a "religious" belief

its more the same as I beleive that tomorrow the sun will rise....

or even with my eyes shut i "belive " there is a hand at the end of my arm

or that I belive that if I step in front of a fast moving vehicle i will shortly find out if I am right

Which still takes belief in that god, when there is no need.
You actually do have a good idea, in fact 99.999999999999999999999999999% chance the sun will rise, you have no such knowledge or possibility that a god exists, so it is not even the same in thinking is it?
You see all the things you claim and can prove them, you cannot with your belief in a god.
So again, what reason do you even need to believe?

Until tomorrow

no but i can, via mathematics, show you why I have good reason to think such is the case.....

At which point it is no better and no worse than the physicists can do......

except it give me a headache every time I think about it.....

sleep well...


blessed be to all.....

darknessss wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:


Which still takes belief in that god, when there is no need.
You actually do have a good idea, in fact 99.999999999999999999999999999% chance the sun will rise, you have no such knowledge or possibility that a god exists, so it is not even the same in thinking is it?
You see all the things you claim and can prove them, you cannot with your belief in a god.
So again, what reason do you even need to believe?

Until tomorrow

no but i can, via mathematics, show you why I have good reason to think such  is the case.....

Show me the maths, that is still never going to be a real reason to even believe, because you fail to tell me why you would need to believe.
Sorry, this is a real pickle, it has me stumped also, because I am looking fro your angle and cannot answer it, hence why you cannot mate

Blessed Be Victor

I've been an eagle and a sparrow,
I am blood, bone, and marrow,
And this body will pass,
But what I really am will last.
I am mind and I am soul,
I am young and I am old.
And all I am, or I have been,
I know that moments do not come again.
I've been a wolf, I've been a deer,
I can see and I can hear.
Everything is just the way it is supposed to be.
I know I need not fear.
I've seen it in the skies,
I've seen it in your eyes,
And I feel it flow through me,
And I know, yes, I know,
I am Oak and I am Willow.

Not mine, one I found, but I love it.

darknessss wrote:except it give me a headache every time I think about it.....

sleep well...


blessed be to all.....

lol its given me a headache

Night mate

Ill run the maths part past you tomorrow....

darknessss wrote:Ill run the maths part past you tomorrow....

Cool, but I think you are going to still not back a valid reason

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

darknessss wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:


You are still missing the main point here
I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

because that belief is not a "religious" belief

its more the same as I beleive that tomorrow the sun will rise....

or even with my eyes shut i "belive " there is a hand at the end of my arm

or that I belive that if I step in front of a fast moving vehicle i will shortly find out if I am right

Which still takes belief in that god, when there is no need.
You actually do have a good idea, in fact 99.999999999999999999999999999% chance the sun will rise, you have no such knowledge or possibility that a god exists, so it is not even the same in thinking is it?

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/plato_soul.htm
well 99% sure there is a soul or Animus energy of some type
and by extension that gods are advanced souls as both are made of divine energy, gods exist.
You see all the things you claim and can prove them, you cannot with your belief in a god.
So again, what reason do you even need to believe?
So again you are still failing to see you are defining a god that is not the way we define a our deities. why need? you are not asking a question Or you are not accepting the answer that "there is no need" but you don't need to know that 1 + 1 = 2 either... there is no relevance to your statement it is illogical to the core of our beliefs... the presumption of need or requirement is wrong. you are not starting at our start point you are starting from a point that is Not even on the Paganism journey. THERE IS NO NEED that whole way of thinking is 'abrahamist' it is completely irrelevant, does not even make any sense in context of the majority of pagan beliefs. things are they way they are because they are not because some god wanted it that way that god is the way it is because it is, what is the Purpose of life? there is none but what we choose to take from it

Until tomorrow

DO you care if your gut bacteria worship you?
if they don't will you not exist?
if you don't acknowledge their devotion will they not exist?
Do you see that your question is irrelevant because regardless of worship or acknowledgement of worship both still exist? if one did not exist than other would not either but neither need to acknowledge the others existence for that existence to be true and allow their own existence .

veya_victaous wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:


Which still takes belief in that god, when there is no need.
You actually do have a good idea, in fact 99.999999999999999999999999999% chance the sun will rise, you have no such knowledge or possibility that a god exists, so it is not even the same in thinking is it?

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/plato_soul.htm
well 99% sure there is a soul or Animus energy of some type
and by extension that gods are advanced souls as both are made of divine energy, gods exist.
You see all the things you claim and can prove them, you cannot with your belief in a god.
So again, what reason do you even need to believe?
So again you are still failing to see you are defining a god that is not the way we define a our deities. why need? you are not asking a question Or you are not accepting the answer that "there is no need" but you don't need to know that 1 + 1 = 2 either... there is no relevance to your statement it is illogical to the core of our beliefs... the presumption of need or requirement is wrong. you are not starting at our start point you are starting from a point that is Not even on the Paganism journey. THERE IS NO NEED that whole way of thinking is 'abrahamist' it is completely irrelevant, does not even make any sense in context of the majority of pagan beliefs. things are they way they are because they are not because some god wanted it that way that god is the way it is because it is, what is the Purpose of life? there is none but what we choose to take from it

Until tomorrow

DO you care if your gut bacteria worship you?
if they don't will you not exist?
if you don't acknowledge their devotion will they not exist?
Do you see that your question is irrelevant because regardless of worship or acknowledgement of worship both still exist? if one did not exist than other would not either but neither need to acknowledge the others existence for that existence to be true and allow their own existence .

Its not about whether I exists Veya, people can see I do.
My question has every relevance hence why it has you in a pickle, because what I ask is true, there is actually no reason to believe in this concept of god. If you decided tomorrow you did not believe, your outcome is never going to change. Only if it did alter off what you did, would believing in this deity or concept of life become significant. Only if you needed to believe to survive after death, would you need to believe in a god. Otherwise there is no real reason, think about it.

To put this into the best way forward.
I believe in tooth fairies.
I do not know they exist.
Why do I even need to believe in tooth fairies?
There is no reason for me to believe in tooth fairies.
So why would I even bother to argue if they existed when there is no purpose as to whether they do? Its not going to alter my life if they did exist, jus tas much if a god existed whee it would not effect my life now or in the next life.


So he question is:
Why would anyone "need" to have reason to believe in a god?

Yes You exist
And your Gut bacteria don't worship you Or you don't acknowledge their worship
SO IF you can exist in that relationship why cant a god?

See Nature already does what you suggest is illogical.. I suggest that it is your logic that is illogical (not a personnel attack but you base your logic around the needs of man not what exists regardless of man the same as Abrahamist religion )


Again back to needing a reason    I don't need a reason why would i need a reason? Does a tree need a reason to exist does the sun need a reason to sustain us with heat and light? Things exist for no reason... everything exists for no reason .. if you are more atheist you would suggest it is all chaos without a purpose so there is no reason for you to exist but you do exist
So even if there is no reason for a god to exists that has zero baring on whether or not one actually does.

OR maybe you mistakenly think we care if believe or not? we don't, there is not a requirement to convert people, we don't have a church to fill or collection plates to pass round. If i tell you about it is because I want to, like i may want to explain some piece of politics or science

Why would anyone "need" to have reason to believe?

the answer is they DONT
I don't see what your next point is? You don't need to believe. Correct...

you don't need to believe the moon is made out of rock but the moon is still made of rock I don't see where this line of argument goes?

I dont understand the logic Ben used it to. My response is..

why would I ask what happens to matter when it moves faster than the speed of light?
Or what is so far away we need a giant telescope outside of Earth atmosphere to even get a glimpse of it?
http://io9.com/how-can-space-travel-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-1687312595
Why bother? Why not

You just answered my question by saying you do not have a reason to believe

Again back to needing a reason    I don't need a reason why would i need a reason?


So it begs the question, why on earth do you believe in a god?
If you do not need a reason, what reason have you for even believing in one then?


Really have to go now

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:You just answered my question by saying you do not have a reason to believe

Again back to needing a reason    I don't need a reason why would i need a reason?


So it begs the question, why on earth do you believe in a god?
If you do not need a reason, what reason have you for even believing in one then?


Really have to go now

Is this back to the idea we believe in god with the fundamentalist devotion
we don't it is just a hypothesis that takes lifetimes to test


And still I come back to viewing things the other way around.. it is not why but why not..

why would I ask what happens to matter when it moves faster than the speed of light?
Or what is so far away we need a giant telescope outside of Earth atmosphere to even get a glimpse of it?
http://io9.com/how-can-space-travel-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-1687312595
Why bother? Why not? all science and human advancement exists because we could not because we had any good reason to.

If you are asking for my personal reason it is still 'faith' just based on Observation, Science and meditation... instead of an old book. I'm am confused by your question I don't understand what you are getting at? large parts of Science fall into the same basket, there is no need or reason it wont change your life but we can still debate and hypothesis what it might be.. for fun if nothing else


go to bed must be late over there

maybe a better way to explain gods is that they are the end result of a soul that has learned everything.
gods aren't something to worship they are something to aspire to be.

knowledge/enlightenment is essentially the quest for godhood.

maybe another way to look at it is imagine our souls are all little kids playing football at school and 'gods' are like professional players, they have ascended to the next level.
Also remember I say the highest spiritual life forms on earth are trees, So we are like kindergarten kids just kicking the ball randomly half the time.

This also is the next reason, just because something is difficult to learn doesn't mean it wont make sense eventually. It doesn't all make sense to me but if I keep thinking about it and taking wisdom wherever I find it, It might someday... probably after i have been reborn a tree

veya_victaous wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:You just answered my question by saying you do not have a reason to believe

Again back to needing a reason    I don't need a reason why would i need a reason?


So it begs the question, why on earth do you believe in a god?
If you do not need a reason, what reason have you for even believing in one then?


Really have to go now

Is this back to the idea we believe in god with the fundamentalist devotion      
we don't it is just a hypothesis that takes lifetimes to test  


And still I come back to viewing things the other way around.. it is not why but why not..

why would I ask what happens to matter when it moves faster than the speed of light?
Or what is so far away we need a giant telescope outside of Earth atmosphere to even get a glimpse of it?
http://io9.com/how-can-space-travel-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-1687312595
Why bother? Why not? all science and human advancement exists because we could not because we had any good reason to.

If you are asking for my personal reason it is still 'faith' just based on Observation, Science and meditation... instead of an old book.  I'm am confused by your question I don't understand what you are getting at? large parts of Science fall into the same basket, there is no need or reason it wont change your life but we can still debate and hypothesis what it might be.. for fun if nothing else  


go to bed  must be late over there

Seriously, this really has your knickers in a twist this, which just shows how good this question is and even more how you cannot even answer this.
Stop getting defensive and look at what is being asked of you.

You said you do not need a reason to believe, well we both know that is a complete load of nonsense, as why on earth do you believe in a god?
If you do not need a reason, what reason have you for even believing in one then?

your knickers are in a twist
Why do i need a reason to believe?
Why do you keep saying I need one, I don't have one!!! because i don't need one
You might need a reason,  I do not need a reason.

it is not why but why not, Simply You nor any other homo sapien is Omniscient so the idea that because you don't understand it isn't and doesn't exist, is the height of arrogance and naivety.
IF you are just a carbon life form why would you know?  I believe it is more likely that a tree will know why we are here than a human..  Why do people think humans are spiritually advanced nothing in our history suggests that.

TO Highlight how your question is irrelevant Reasons and existing have nothing to do with each other.
What is the reason you exist? what is the reason things evolve?
DO you believe in evolution, Why what reason?
Now Humans Don't know why we evolve, Darwin was only close Does that mean Evolution does not exist because we don't the reason for it to exist?
Can you see that Our knowledge is irrelevant Evolution Exists whether we know why or not
Even at the height of the catholic church's power  when suggesting evolution would have got you burned at the stake.. evolution still existed because the beliefs and reasons of human are irrelevant

darknessss wrote:if youi consider that as "god" then we, every one of us, are gods in the making

Holy shit, I didn't know you're a Mormon!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism)

veya_victaous wrote:your knickers are in a twist
Why do i need a reason to believe?
Why do you keep saying I need one, I don't have one!!! because i don't need one
You might need a reason,  I do not need a reason.

it is not why but why not, Simply You nor any other homo sapien is Omniscient so the idea that because you don't understand it isn't and doesn't exist, is the height of arrogance and naivety.
IF you are just a carbon life form why would you know?  I believe it is more likely that a tree will know why we are here than a human..  Why do people think humans are spiritually advanced nothing in our history suggests that.

TO Highlight how your question is irrelevant Reasons and existing have nothing to do with each other.
What is the reason you exist? what is the reason things evolve?
DO you believe in evolution, Why what reason?
Now Humans Don't know why we evolve, Darwin was only close Does that mean Evolution does not exist because we don't the reason for it to exist?
Can you see that Our knowledge is irrelevant Evolution Exists whether we know why or not
Even at the height of the catholic church's power  when suggesting evolution would have got you burned at the stake.. evolution still existed because the beliefs and reasons of human are irrelevant

There you go, you are answering in my favour here.
You state clearly you have no reason to believe, so the question then stands as to why you do believe.
Its like saying you believe in tooth fairies, you have mo reaason to believe in them and yet still do.
You then go off points not even being addressed to you. You state you seen the Sun as a deity, a mortal and not very powerful deity at that.
The point is what you are failing to graps is that if your life does not require you to believe then there is no reason to beleive, your life is not going to be effected iof you do not believe.

So again

I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?

The point is what you are failing to grasp is that if your life does not require you to believe then there is no reason to believe, your life is not going to be effected if you do not believe. AND that is Ok Why does it have to affect you? knowing what happens in Saturn's Rings isn't going to affect me either doesn't mean i wont read the article when it comes out.

AND My Deities have no intention of punishing/rewarding you or anybody that is not they way they work. Your journey is your own the lessons you have to learn this life are for your development, they have their own journeys to make. The Sun will continue to grant life on earth it's loving warmth and Jupiter will give its gravitational protection for as long as they live which will be far longer than me and probably far longer than our species.

And there is still my original point that we don't need to believe anything.. we choose to believe what we want... You, me, HF, ben, everyone we believe what we choose to believe.

And Still... why not? Faith does have tangible benefits to ones well-being.. why choose a path that statically will make you less happy, less fulfilled, lower health, more likely to suffer depression? Sun Shine also has positive effect why not kill two birds with one stone?


ON the Afterlife
do you count reincarnation as an afterlife? I think of it as 'next life'
My gods also go through reincarnation so the concept you are trying to get is just not in sync with what i define either of those things as. So i would say no they don't need a creator but the over all multiverse might have one

On Creator(s)
No Idea... I don't think this dimension is the primary dimension, I accept that am so insignificant that I cannot comprehend the hand of a creator, if there is one. but if there is i assume they are grander than the entire universe and as i cannot conceptualization the entire universe i have no hope of accurately conceptualizing the possible creator(s)...
I believe for myself this was a lesson I was supposed to learn this life, that I and everything is actually irrelevant insignificant and tiny... but that just means we have ample opportunities to grow.

You still are not answering the question Veya

So again

I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe.
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life?
If yes, does that need a creator?

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in?


I do not think you can answer and not taking the piss, because it is a real pickle of a question to place a believer in really, hence why brought this up mate.


The point is there is no "real" need to believe in something that has no requirement in your life that you do so. It is like I have said before to Christians and Muslims, if they did not fear their deity, they would have no reason to believe in this God. It is a fear of what this deity would do in their next life which is why they are thus believeing, because their belief requires purpose to believe. Hence why both faiths are based not on anything good but fear and fear is not in anyway love. We love our partners and children and friends for example, what need would we have to fear them? This is why the abrahamic faiths are not based on love but a fear of what could happen if they do not believe or obey commands.

PLEASE READ My post clearly say On Afterlife and On Creator

where i explain NO i don't believe in 'afterlife' I believe in a 'next-life' and my deities also go through this..

I dont know and dont believe you can know at this stage of spiritual development if there is a creator or not... you will have to wait until you can be reincarnated as a star or something much grander than a human. I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to put it into words that humans could understand our total spiritual mass is too insignificant to comprehend such things.

AND why would you need a reason? you need to answer that first BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU I HAVE NO REASON straight up i have no reason beyond why own thoughts that entertain me.
So there is my answer NO your question doesn't make sense because i require no greater reason than because i feel like it.
I Know I don't have all the answer that is why i am still asking questions and DONT assume something isn't just because i don't understand it.