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About Us & RulesIf you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
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If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:04 pm
If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
Living in a mixed area makes us more tolerant, not less, studies show. That fact must be part of the immigration debate
Passive tolerance is probably not a concept many people have yet heard of. Let's hope that changes, because "passive tolerance" is the most hopeful bit of academic social psychology research to emerge in a long time. It is the idea that simply living in an area of high diversity rubs off on you, making you more tolerant of ethnic diversity.
Think of all those tiny interactions between different ethnic groups on an average British city street: the newsagent, the corner shop, the delivery driver, the postman, friends laughing, children playing, a pair of lovers. This is what generates passive tolerance. You don't have to be part of the interaction yourself; just witnessing it is enough to have a significant impact – comparable to the effect passive smoking has on your health, hence the term passive tolerance.
This is the finding of seven studies carried out over 10 years in the United States, Europe and South Africa, led by a team of social psychologists at the University of Oxford and published in the journal of the United States National Academy of Sciences. They were careful to rule out the most obvious explanation for their finding, social psychologists Miles Hewstone and Katharina Schmid explain – namely, that the higher levels of tolerance in more diverse neighbourhoods are a result of more tolerant people choosing to live there. Two of the studies were conducted over several years and tracked the same individuals, showing how attitudes changed. Even prejudiced people showed a greater degree of tolerance over time if they lived in a mixed neighbourhood.
The study's positive message is reinforced by the finding of a separate study led by the same Oxford team – the biggest to date in England on diversity and trust. White British people were asked whether they felt ethnic minorities threatened their way of life, increased crime levels, or took their jobs; ethnic minority participants were asked the same questions. Both groups were then asked about how they interact with other groups in everyday situations, such as corner shops, and then about how much they trusted people from their own and other ethnic groups in their neighbourhood. What the study found was that distrust does rise in diverse communities, but day to day, direct contact cancels it out.
The two studies together point to a more optimistic reading of how diversity impacts on urban neighbourhoods.
The reason passive tolerance is politically so important is not hard to see. Sociology and social psychology have frequently been drafted in to the highly charged political debate about community, integration and multiculturalism. Key concepts and ideas take hold in the political sphere and become a rationale for policy. The danger is that oft-quoted ideas can become self-fulfilling. Perhaps the most influential in this area has been US sociologist Professor Robert Putnam, who said diversity has a negative impact on social capital, leading to people "hunkering down", and trust in strangers and neighbourhoods dropping significantly. "Hunkering down" has become a widely quoted phrase as a respectable way for liberals to articulate their growing concern in an increasingly toxic political debate on immigration.
The problematic issue for the left is that lower levels of trust have been linked to declining support for the welfare state. The theory is that if you are less likely to trust the people around you, you are less willing to have a sense of solidarity and so less likely to stump up the taxes to pay for other people's benefits.
The author David Goodhart, for instance, has seized upon Putnam's "hunkering down thesis as vindication of the controversial position he holds has long advanced. He routinely invokes Putnam to argue that the pace and scale of increasing diversity in the UK has been too great and, as he said in a recent interview, people "become less willing to share resources and do the things we require of people in a modern welfare state". The left faces a nasty conundrum as two of its most sacred shibboleths come into conflict: ethnic diversity and the solidarity necessary for a strong welfare state.
This new research throws these conclusions into question. Putnam's work may, after all, have been misleading. In fact, rather than hunkering down, living in a mixed neighbourhood helps you open up. In some ways this vindicates many people's anecdotal experience of their own enjoyment of diversity in their neighbourhoods, and the sense that the most pronounced fear and prejudice is found in exclusively white areas.
The research also vindicates the case for local initiatives to foster social exchange and build community relationships. From carnivals to coffee mornings, jumble sales to fun days in the park – all these are opportunities to generate passive tolerance. Sadly, however, many of these initiatives have fallen victim to local authority funding cuts. The impact of austerity has been compounded by a loss of confidence – in which Putnam's research played its part – about fostering strong diverse communities. Multiculturalism has fallen from favour, misunderstood and maligned as the set of ideas that guided community relations for a generation.
No one was more acutely aware of this danger than Putnam himself when he talked to me on the publication of his research in 2007, the timing made the danger all the more acute in the aftermath of 7/7 bombings. Since then the theme of integration has come to dominate – with its coercive and conformist overtones. The result has been a yawning gap with no positive narrative for the fast-changing diversity of Britain's urban life.
The hope is that this academic research will percolate into policy and public life, inspiring confidence again that strong diverse communities are not only possible, but can also work as beacons, converting residents and visitors alike to a possibility of rich exchange.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/passive-tolerance-beacon-hope-diverse-communities
Always said, live with people and the fear goes. If you don't mix you build up a bogey man in your head that simply doesn't exist in fact.
Living in a mixed area makes us more tolerant, not less, studies show. That fact must be part of the immigration debate
Passive tolerance is probably not a concept many people have yet heard of. Let's hope that changes, because "passive tolerance" is the most hopeful bit of academic social psychology research to emerge in a long time. It is the idea that simply living in an area of high diversity rubs off on you, making you more tolerant of ethnic diversity.
Think of all those tiny interactions between different ethnic groups on an average British city street: the newsagent, the corner shop, the delivery driver, the postman, friends laughing, children playing, a pair of lovers. This is what generates passive tolerance. You don't have to be part of the interaction yourself; just witnessing it is enough to have a significant impact – comparable to the effect passive smoking has on your health, hence the term passive tolerance.
This is the finding of seven studies carried out over 10 years in the United States, Europe and South Africa, led by a team of social psychologists at the University of Oxford and published in the journal of the United States National Academy of Sciences. They were careful to rule out the most obvious explanation for their finding, social psychologists Miles Hewstone and Katharina Schmid explain – namely, that the higher levels of tolerance in more diverse neighbourhoods are a result of more tolerant people choosing to live there. Two of the studies were conducted over several years and tracked the same individuals, showing how attitudes changed. Even prejudiced people showed a greater degree of tolerance over time if they lived in a mixed neighbourhood.
The study's positive message is reinforced by the finding of a separate study led by the same Oxford team – the biggest to date in England on diversity and trust. White British people were asked whether they felt ethnic minorities threatened their way of life, increased crime levels, or took their jobs; ethnic minority participants were asked the same questions. Both groups were then asked about how they interact with other groups in everyday situations, such as corner shops, and then about how much they trusted people from their own and other ethnic groups in their neighbourhood. What the study found was that distrust does rise in diverse communities, but day to day, direct contact cancels it out.
The two studies together point to a more optimistic reading of how diversity impacts on urban neighbourhoods.
The reason passive tolerance is politically so important is not hard to see. Sociology and social psychology have frequently been drafted in to the highly charged political debate about community, integration and multiculturalism. Key concepts and ideas take hold in the political sphere and become a rationale for policy. The danger is that oft-quoted ideas can become self-fulfilling. Perhaps the most influential in this area has been US sociologist Professor Robert Putnam, who said diversity has a negative impact on social capital, leading to people "hunkering down", and trust in strangers and neighbourhoods dropping significantly. "Hunkering down" has become a widely quoted phrase as a respectable way for liberals to articulate their growing concern in an increasingly toxic political debate on immigration.
The problematic issue for the left is that lower levels of trust have been linked to declining support for the welfare state. The theory is that if you are less likely to trust the people around you, you are less willing to have a sense of solidarity and so less likely to stump up the taxes to pay for other people's benefits.
The author David Goodhart, for instance, has seized upon Putnam's "hunkering down thesis as vindication of the controversial position he holds has long advanced. He routinely invokes Putnam to argue that the pace and scale of increasing diversity in the UK has been too great and, as he said in a recent interview, people "become less willing to share resources and do the things we require of people in a modern welfare state". The left faces a nasty conundrum as two of its most sacred shibboleths come into conflict: ethnic diversity and the solidarity necessary for a strong welfare state.
This new research throws these conclusions into question. Putnam's work may, after all, have been misleading. In fact, rather than hunkering down, living in a mixed neighbourhood helps you open up. In some ways this vindicates many people's anecdotal experience of their own enjoyment of diversity in their neighbourhoods, and the sense that the most pronounced fear and prejudice is found in exclusively white areas.
The research also vindicates the case for local initiatives to foster social exchange and build community relationships. From carnivals to coffee mornings, jumble sales to fun days in the park – all these are opportunities to generate passive tolerance. Sadly, however, many of these initiatives have fallen victim to local authority funding cuts. The impact of austerity has been compounded by a loss of confidence – in which Putnam's research played its part – about fostering strong diverse communities. Multiculturalism has fallen from favour, misunderstood and maligned as the set of ideas that guided community relations for a generation.
No one was more acutely aware of this danger than Putnam himself when he talked to me on the publication of his research in 2007, the timing made the danger all the more acute in the aftermath of 7/7 bombings. Since then the theme of integration has come to dominate – with its coercive and conformist overtones. The result has been a yawning gap with no positive narrative for the fast-changing diversity of Britain's urban life.
The hope is that this academic research will percolate into policy and public life, inspiring confidence again that strong diverse communities are not only possible, but can also work as beacons, converting residents and visitors alike to a possibility of rich exchange.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/passive-tolerance-beacon-hope-diverse-communities
Always said, live with people and the fear goes. If you don't mix you build up a bogey man in your head that simply doesn't exist in fact.
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:20 pm
Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:30 pm
i'm sorry but i'm a big fan of when in Rome, if they come here they should adjust to our laws and cultures not import there's..
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:31 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
Nail, head
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Ben Reilly Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:38 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
How much of this, though, is just having to deal with assholes and attributing what you don't like to their entire culture rather than to the individual asshole?
I'm very intolerant of assholism, but it's a creed that spreads through every known culture ...
Ben Reilly- King of Texas. Gigantic Killer Robot. Robin Hood of Epping Forest. Fifty Shades of Cray.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:42 pm
Victor, we don't disagree on many things, but the whole of what that was saying is we adapt to each others. Why are people so bloody boring that they can't stand anything different and don't realise that it makes their lives fuller, more interesting, rounder, instead of introverted and scared. Personally I'm ashamed of that trait in the english. They go abroad and live in enclaves, sticking to their food and their ways, hemmed in by their bigotry. Honestly, I feel sorry for them, they don't know what they are missing.
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:43 pm
This is one of the few subjects where I find the best line is somewhere between the two extremes. I am very much a pro-multiculturalism, liberal lefty, and would never claim anything else, conservatism is usually fear induced, regressive and hostile to any change. HOWEVER, there is a lot victor has said that I agree with. Halal should be labelled, newcomers from different backgrounds SHOULD respect our traditions. Newcomers SHOULD make efforts to integrate as well as Brits being accepting. Newcomers and those of minority cultures SHOULD definitely adhere to our laws and standards (and tbf, most do).
There is of course problems with people assuming all foreigners are bad, or at least pushing the view enough are bad to the point xenophobic political groups and media villainize whole sections of society. There are people who condemn all of one religion as though all are fundamentalists when clearly all are not. I disagree there is no 'bogey man' mentality. There is, especially from papers like the Daily Mail who push negative stereotypes of Muslims, Gypsies and Eastern Europeans to sell to their angry reader base. That doesn't mean anyone with criticisms of those people adheres to that mentality, but many do, those who are ignorant who do not know or wish to know anyone from those groups form and image in their mind, and it is an image we are seeing characterized by certain posters on these forums each and every day.
But as I say I see both sides and understand and agree with aspects of both. But the hostility to multiculturalism is disproportionate for sure; especially in cities I see nothing but the success of multiculturalism, and it is a wonderful thing
There is of course problems with people assuming all foreigners are bad, or at least pushing the view enough are bad to the point xenophobic political groups and media villainize whole sections of society. There are people who condemn all of one religion as though all are fundamentalists when clearly all are not. I disagree there is no 'bogey man' mentality. There is, especially from papers like the Daily Mail who push negative stereotypes of Muslims, Gypsies and Eastern Europeans to sell to their angry reader base. That doesn't mean anyone with criticisms of those people adheres to that mentality, but many do, those who are ignorant who do not know or wish to know anyone from those groups form and image in their mind, and it is an image we are seeing characterized by certain posters on these forums each and every day.
But as I say I see both sides and understand and agree with aspects of both. But the hostility to multiculturalism is disproportionate for sure; especially in cities I see nothing but the success of multiculturalism, and it is a wonderful thing
Eilzel- Speaker of the House
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:46 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
best post I have seen for ages....
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:47 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
*LIKE*
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:47 pm
Thats exactly it Les, where people live together they get on great. As for the 'calling to prayer' Victor, I live with a church behind me, and much as I like the sound of the bells for half an hour, some days they practice for hours and hours and hours, and if it a hot day with the windows open, I could string them up by their bells.
I feel the same about mosques, I like the calling for a short time, on for hours and hours would be a bit much.
PS And it ain't leftist claptrap, it's living with people and enjoying their company and differences, because it makes life more interesting.
I feel the same about mosques, I like the calling for a short time, on for hours and hours would be a bit much.
PS And it ain't leftist claptrap, it's living with people and enjoying their company and differences, because it makes life more interesting.
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Raggamuffin Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:03 pm
Re the thing about not being able to find bacon, isn't that because there's not much demand for it in Muslim areas? A butcher isn't going to get something in that he can't sell much of.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:10 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Re the thing about not being able to find bacon, isn't that because there's not much demand for it in Muslim areas? A butcher isn't going to get something in that he can't sell much of.
I've been all over trying to find halal bacon...
Guest- Guest
Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Raggamuffin Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:11 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:Re the thing about not being able to find bacon, isn't that because there's not much demand for it in Muslim areas? A butcher isn't going to get something in that he can't sell much of.
I've been all over trying to find halal bacon...
I don't eat bacon, so I don't have to worry about whether it's halal or not.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:12 pm
I'm with Victor on this one, the expectations put on all parties in respect of multiculturalism are unrealistic. Compromise has to be made on all sides.
While I understand the idealistic view that we are residents on earth and should be able to live our lives wherever we wish it's just not realistic.
We're a long long way from live and let live
While I understand the idealistic view that we are residents on earth and should be able to live our lives wherever we wish it's just not realistic.
We're a long long way from live and let live
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:12 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
I've been all over trying to find halal bacon...
I don't eat bacon, so I don't have to worry about whether it's halal or not.
oh my, you are so missing out the full English brekkie with eggy bread...
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Raggamuffin Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:13 pm
I just know that someone somewhere is going to take that post seriously. ::D::
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Raggamuffin Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:15 pm
I don't have an issue with multiculturalism but then I don't live in a multicultural area.
When I lived in London, I lived in one area where hardly anyone was white, except the people who lived in my road - they were all white and British. I'm not sure if that was coincidence or not.
When I lived in London, I lived in one area where hardly anyone was white, except the people who lived in my road - they were all white and British. I'm not sure if that was coincidence or not.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:15 pm
You tried Rags lol
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Raggamuffin Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:18 pm
Sassy wrote:You tried Rags lol
I do my best Sassy.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:20 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Sassy wrote:You tried Rags lol
I do my best Sassy.
arguably with very limited resources..lol
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:21 pm
Now, now, lets not talk about limited resources, pot etc
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:22 pm
Sassy wrote:Now, now, lets not talk about limited resources, pot etc
cheek...
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:25 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
If Multiculturalism does not work then clearly those who perceive this do not understand America. It had the biggest influx of immigrants you will ever see anywhere especially in the 19th and 20th century and whilst is was difficult at first as many were treated exactly as Victor holds such poor prejudice views of people, these were overcome with a unity and a belonging together. One where people could identify with being American but also very proud of their ethnic roots.
So what has really Victor shown here but scorn and hate towards people collectively and who is these people he is speaking of?
Muslims.
He claims we are being forced fed meat that is no different from being killed like others, except both methods cut the throat except we electrocute the animal as if in anyway this is more humane, when there is nothing to suggest either. Of course not only that halal meat is supplied to many outlets including many football stadiums and this is well stated it is, yet countless footie fans and many other people daily eat this meat without any thought or conviction. The reality is sad claims of whether electrocution is a better method or humane, is just a smoke screen to attack a group, when Muslims have been living in the west and in this nation for the last 300 years, so why is it now a problem?
Because of terrorism, terrorism by mindless idiots, has allowed other mindless idiots to poor scorn onto all Muslims, as they are an easy target to hit. Because to Victor it is some big travesty someone of which is a less than a thousand Muslim women decide to cover themselves fully clothed as if this is some outrage, but would no doubt have no issue seeing a woman fatter and heavier than 30 stone walk down the street in a mini skirt with two small a T-shit which exposes here stomach, that is okay, but a woman dressed conservatively is a means to poor on more scorn as if now all Muslims dress this way. So who has the problem here, well Victor does, because what harm are they doing to him dressed this way?
None, it may not be good for communication because we use body language, but you do not help a woman understand this by vilifying them.
So who is the issue when it comes to integration, well many come here and do stick to their customs and beliefs and yet the reality is many of their children are different growing up and getting along with children their own age, in fact in this country are youth show us in the main why prejudice is a fear based on ignorance, they are blessed with being able to grow up together with minorities in this country and do not in the main stereotype them. So whilst we do have some that come here and do not integrate, we also have those who live here that have no wish to integrate, just as was the case when we had the first influx in the 1950's, the same kind of people came out with all the same cultural pessimism crap you have read in Victors post. Similar crap was argued back then, how they could not fit into society, their cultures were alien, the same crap going back time and time again can be found. With Jews in Europe and especially German, how their culture was incompatible with the west, how they committed crimes, how they raped young women, how there was too many Synagogues, how they were affecting society, they were the evil behind communism. Hell go back further to late 19th century America, and Irish and Italians were treated on the same levels as blacks, cast as criminals, their cultures did not fit in with society. Every time this same bullshit has been promoted, each time, people have proven them wrong and if anything America is testimony how many people can actually move past prejudice, it still has some way to go for some people, but it has untied countless people from ethnic groups.
So to say his post was the best, it was the worst, one born of fear prejudice and hate, of which there is nothing special about that
It does not take much to get along with people in real life, you will only know how to when you try and when you try you will find and be pleasantly suprised how easy it is to do so!
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Ben Reilly Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:40 pm
Multiculturalism isn't about one culture absorbing another or forcing its values on another, it's about people from different cultures making the little adjustments needed -- AND having enough of a live-and-let-live attitude -- to get along.
If people are trying to force you into something you don't want to partake in, OR if you're trying to do the same to others -- you're doing multiculturalism wrong.
If people are trying to force you into something you don't want to partake in, OR if you're trying to do the same to others -- you're doing multiculturalism wrong.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:42 pm
Ben_Reilly wrote:Multiculturalism isn't about one culture absorbing another or forcing its values on another, it's about people from different cultures making the little adjustments needed -- AND having enough of a live-and-let-live attitude -- to get along.
If people are trying to force you into something you don't want to partake in, OR if you're trying to do the same to others -- you're doing multiculturalism wrong.
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:46 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Ben_Reilly wrote:Multiculturalism isn't about one culture absorbing another or forcing its values on another, it's about people from different cultures making the little adjustments needed -- AND having enough of a live-and-let-live attitude -- to get along.
If people are trying to force you into something you don't want to partake in, OR if you're trying to do the same to others -- you're doing multiculturalism wrong.
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
Have we, what have you had to change about yourself?
I have not had to change anything about myself or my way of life.
I think you again do not understand how it is the children who grow up very well with those born here, because many do not look upon such fears and find it easy to get along, the question is why others do not, the reality is the children are the adults and the adults in some cases with such prejudice act like children
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:47 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Ben_Reilly wrote:Multiculturalism isn't about one culture absorbing another or forcing its values on another, it's about people from different cultures making the little adjustments needed -- AND having enough of a live-and-let-live attitude -- to get along.
If people are trying to force you into something you don't want to partake in, OR if you're trying to do the same to others -- you're doing multiculturalism wrong.
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
But you are proving the point here with generalizations. Obviously most immigrants don't have a problem, we know they don't because most of us know people who have integrated and just get on with life. There are concerns of course, the problem is when you generalize with statements like 'the only ones making changes are the British'; you automatically infer that all immigrants are doing nothing to adapt- when most are!
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:49 pm
Didge wrote:Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
Have we, what have you had to change about yourself?
I have not had to change anything about myself or my way of life.
I think you again do not understand how it is the children who grow up very well with those born here, because many do not look upon such fears and find it easy to get along, the question is why others do not, the reality is the children are the adults and the adults in some cases with such prejudice act like children
Exactly didge, I also haven't changed anything about my life because of immigrants; I still live exactly as I choose to. People get something in to their heads and decide that must be the way of it 'cause that's what the papers say'.
Good to see you back btw, hope things can become cordial again with you and eds
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:52 pm
Didge wrote:Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
Have we, what have you had to change about yourself?
I have not had to change anything about myself or my way of life.
I think you again do not understand how it is the children who grow up very well with those born here, because many do not look upon such fears and find it easy to get along, the question is why others do not, the reality is the children are the adults and the adults in some cases with such prejudice act like children
was eating halal food without being told....
My wife is very nervous about flying...
more checks on holiday flights...
Christmas festivals being affected..
treat like a third class citizen...
cannot follow my own faith...
the list goes on..
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:55 pm
Didge wrote:victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
If Multiculturalism does not work then clearly those who perceive this do not understand America. It had the biggest influx of immigrants you will ever see anywhere especially in the 19th and 20th century and whilst is was difficult at first as many were treated exactly as Victor holds such poor prejudice views of people, these were overcome with a unity and a belonging together. One where people could identify with being American but also very proud of their ethnic roots.
So what has really Victor shown here but scorn and hate towards people collectively and who is these people he is speaking of?
Muslims.
they are merely an example....I could have included those of the "gang" culture, with their "rap" and so on...and many others too...each of which have their own "culural problems"
He claims we are being forced fed meat that is no different from being killed like others, except both methods cut the throat except we electrocute the animal as if in anyway this is more humane, when there is nothing to suggest either. Of course not only that halal meat is supplied to many outlets including many football stadiums and this is well stated it is, yet countless footie fans and many other people daily eat this meat without any thought or conviction. The reality is sad claims of whether electrocution is a better method or humane, is just a smoke screen to attack a group, when Muslims have been living in the west and in this nation for the last 300 years, so why is it now a problem?
Firstly IS IT labeled as such...dunno...never been to a footie match, secondly that STILL doesnt excuse it NOT BEING GENERALLY labeled in the shops so I can make MY choice...as I said ...MY cultural norms are set aside to please "the others". YOUR claims as to whether electrocution is better or not are not science based, but emotive...personally my understanding is that stunning is better...(in the sense of the lesser of two evils, personally I'd rather shoot my own meat...at least THAT way I KNOW its done humanely)
Because of terrorism, terrorism by mindless idiots, has allowed other mindless idiots to poor scorn onto all Muslims, as they are an easy target to hit. Because to Victor it is some big travesty someone of which is a less than a thousand Muslim women decide to cover themselves fully clothed as if this is some outrage, but would no doubt have no issue seeing a woman fatter and heavier than 30 stone walk down the street in a mini skirt with two small a T-shit which exposes here stomach, that is okay, but a woman dressed conservatively is a means to poor on more scorn as if now all Muslims dress this way. So who has the problem here, well Victor does, because what harm are they doing to him dressed this way?
None, it may not be good for communication because we use body language, but you do not help a woman understand this by vilifying them.
Source of that "less than 1000" please
wrong 30st of munter is not something I want to see thanks....but a nice bit of fluff in a mini...now THATS a sight for old eyes ::D::
So who is the issue when it comes to integration, well many come here and do stick to their customs and beliefs and yet the reality is many of their children are different growing up and getting along with children their own age, in fact in this country are youth show us in the main why prejudice is a fear based on ignorance, they are blessed with being able to grow up together with minorities in this country and do not in the main stereotype them. So whilst we do have some that come here and do not integrate, we also have those who live here that have no wish to integrate, just as was the case when we had the first influx in the 1950's, the same kind of people came out with all the same cultural pessimism crap you have read in Victors post. Similar crap was argued back then, how they could not fit into society, their cultures were alien, the same crap going back time and time again can be found. With Jews in Europe and especially German, how their culture was incompatible with the west, how they committed crimes, how they raped young women, how there was too many Synagogues, how they were affecting society, they were the evil behind communism. Hell go back further to late 19th century America, and Irish and Italians were treated on the same levels as blacks, cast as criminals, their cultures did not fit in with society. Every time this same bullshit has been promoted, each time, people have proven them wrong and if anything America is testimony how many people can actually move past prejudice, it still has some way to go for some people, but it has untied countless people from ethnic groups.
well thats your "rose tinted" view didge, and you are welcome to it....
So to say his post was the best, it was the worst, one born of fear prejudice and hate, of which there is nothing special about that
It does not take much to get along with people in real life, you will only know how to when you try and when you try you will find and be pleasantly suprised how easy it is to do so!
AND STILL...no one can show me any REAL benefits that we have gained from multiculturalism?? anyone????
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:55 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Didge wrote:
Have we, what have you had to change about yourself?
I have not had to change anything about myself or my way of life.
I think you again do not understand how it is the children who grow up very well with those born here, because many do not look upon such fears and find it easy to get along, the question is why others do not, the reality is the children are the adults and the adults in some cases with such prejudice act like children
was eating halal food without being told....what is wrong with halal meat, it has its throat cut just like non-halal
My wife is very nervous about flying...Many people are nervous about flying, even though it is one of the safest ways to travel
more checks on holiday flights...Security is best, I do not mind a minor inconvenience, why should you?
Christmas festivals being affected..No they are not, that is nonsense
treat like a third class citizen...Really, since when?
Cannot follow my own faith...Really, when have you been stopped from following your faith, seems to be me you express it daily, and I do not see anyone stop you
the list goes on..
That is not a list but poor excuses, with again no real affect on your life, except a a minor inconvenience with security checks
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Irn Bru Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:55 pm
I live in Scotland which I think is a very tolerant country where most people just accept people for who they are irrespective of their cultural background.
We do have our bigots which is largely confined to religious bigotry related to Ireland but that's about it.
I've never once had a problem with any immigrants or anyone from a different cultural background and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
We do have our bigots which is largely confined to religious bigotry related to Ireland but that's about it.
I've never once had a problem with any immigrants or anyone from a different cultural background and I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:55 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Didge wrote:
Have we, what have you had to change about yourself?
I have not had to change anything about myself or my way of life.
I think you again do not understand how it is the children who grow up very well with those born here, because many do not look upon such fears and find it easy to get along, the question is why others do not, the reality is the children are the adults and the adults in some cases with such prejudice act like children
was eating halal food without being told....
My wife is very nervous about flying...
more checks on holiday flights...
Christmas festivals being affected..
treat like a third class citizen...
cannot follow my own faith...
the list goes on..
1. How did you find out you were eating Halal food afterwards?
2. Your wife would be nervous anyway; Muslims would come in and out of airports even if they didn't live here.
3. Again checks would happen anyway.
4. How has YOUR Christmas been affected?
5. HOW are you treated like a 3rd class citizen?
6. Are you no longer a practicing Christian?
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:57 pm
Eilzel wrote:Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
But as victor quite rightly said the only ones who seem to be making the changes are the British...
All the demands seem to come from the imports, what happened to when in Rome...
But you are proving the point here with generalizations. Obviously most immigrants don't have a problem, we know they don't because most of us know people who have integrated and just get on with life. There are concerns of course, the problem is when you generalize with statements like 'the only ones making changes are the British'; you automatically infer that all immigrants are doing nothing to adapt- when most are!
I would challenge the statement "most are" . I would agree "some" are, but not enough....
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Ben Reilly Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:57 pm
Has anything like this happened, Bru?
Because that would be fantastic! ::D::
Because that would be fantastic! ::D::
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:01 pm
victorismyhero wrote:Eilzel wrote:
But you are proving the point here with generalizations. Obviously most immigrants don't have a problem, we know they don't because most of us know people who have integrated and just get on with life. There are concerns of course, the problem is when you generalize with statements like 'the only ones making changes are the British'; you automatically infer that all immigrants are doing nothing to adapt- when most are!
I would challenge the statement "most are" . I would agree "some" are, but not enough....
Well I don't think we can really test whether it is 'most' or not. But certainly most don't seem to have any problems- or they'd be far more prevalent, and far more noticeable in our individual lives. I am always amazed at people who criticize immigrants in general for all the negative aspects- almost always when I ask about those they know people tell me how 'so and so' is really nice though and 'I know all aren't like that'- where does they negative attitude come from then? Oh right some news report....
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:03 pm
victorismyhero wrote:
they are merely an example....I could have included those of the "gang" culture, with their "rap" and so on...and many others too...each of which have their own "culural problems"
Again association fallacies based upon the exception to the rules
[Firstly IS IT labeled as such...dunno...never been to a footie match, secondly that STILL doesnt excuse it NOT BEING GENERALLY labeled in the shops so I can make MY choice...as I said ...MY cultural norms are set aside to please "the others". YOUR claims as to whether electrocution is better or not are not science based, but emotive...personally my understanding is that stunning is better...(in the sense of the lesser of two evils, personally I'd rather shoot my own meat...at least THAT way I KNOW its done humanely)
Why should it matter if it is labeled or, its dead meat like any other meat, which again has been available in this country for centuries. There is no evidence that stunning is better, maybe you need to electrocute yourself to know whether it hurts or not, because anyone who claims it does not is telling porkies
]Source of that "less than 1000" please
Show me it is more than that, in fact show me it is more than 500, I was being generous, not that it matters, as you miss the point of how such dress is not affecting you
wrong 30st of munter is not something I want to see thanks....but a nice bit of fluff in a mini...now THATS a sight for old eyes ::D::
Great so why do you not vilify all these overweight people and say they are a drain on society with that logic then, because it seems your logic goes out the window and you only vilify a group thus because they are Muslim then and not the way they dress, because you are certainly not vocal about how others dress
tell thats your "rose tinted" view didge, and you are welcome to it....
So no answer to main points showing your views are unfounded.
AND STILL...no one can show me any REAL benefits that we have gained from multiculturalism?? anyone????
Well clearly you did not read my post., what do you call America, if it has no benefited from multiculturalism?
A failure?
I think not, you have benefited from great food, music, dance, literature, I could go on with the benefits, you though chose to ignore them, shame really
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:04 pm
Eilzel wrote:Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
was eating halal food without being told....
My wife is very nervous about flying...
more checks on holiday flights...
Christmas festivals being affected..
treat like a third class citizen...
cannot follow my own faith...
the list goes on..
1. How did you find out you were eating Halal food afterwards?
2. Your wife would be nervous anyway; Muslims would come in and out of airports even if they didn't live here.
3. Again checks would happen anyway.
4. How has YOUR Christmas been affected?
5. HOW are you treated like a 3rd class citizen?
6. Are you no longer a practicing Christian?
i found out through the newspapers and even complained to my council why it does not have to be labelled..
possibly they would but not as frequently, with the news and the papers full of terrorism too it is a constant reminder.
do you remember when taking liquid etc happened, it was a nightmare and now the checks put people in to waiting longer, which is part of terrorism, disrupting peoples every day lives..
nativity have changed completely, hymns have changed completely, even assemblies have changed
I'm a third class citizen as I am one of the last considered necessary of help..
i try too but it is not considered important enough to be able to live by it, as i may be conflicting with someone elses rights..
do you think it would go down well with muslims if every Christian church put loud speakers around their buildings and played Praise music several times a day..
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Irn Bru Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:05 pm
I'm sure it has Ben. In fact a colleague at work is a member of the Edinburgh University Highland Dancing Club and he told me that a group of Japanese children who are either studying or living with their parents who are working in London are flown up at the end of every month to be taught how to do it
The club has a very wide range of members from all over the world so the you tube clip may be very accurate.
The club has a very wide range of members from all over the world so the you tube clip may be very accurate.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Eilzel Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:06 pm
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:Eilzel wrote:
1. How did you find out you were eating Halal food afterwards?
2. Your wife would be nervous anyway; Muslims would come in and out of airports even if they didn't live here.
3. Again checks would happen anyway.
4. How has YOUR Christmas been affected?
5. HOW are you treated like a 3rd class citizen?
6. Are you no longer a practicing Christian?
i found out through the newspapers and even complained to my council why it does not have to be labelled..
possibly they would but not as frequently, with the news and the papers full of terrorism too it is a constant reminder.
do you remember when taking liquid etc happened, it was a nightmare and now the checks put people in to waiting longer, which is part of terrorism, disrupting peoples every day lives..
nativity have changed completely, hymns have changed completely, even assemblies have changed
I'm a third class citizen as I am one of the last considered necessary of help..
i try too but it is not considered important enough to be able to live by it, as i may be conflicting with someone elses rights..
do you think it would go down well with muslims if every Christian church put loud speakers around their buildings and played Praise music several times a day..
How, SPECIFICALLY, do you feel you are treated as a third class citizen?
What aspects of your Christianity do you feel are being compromised SPECIFICALLY?
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Irn Bru Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:07 pm
Pakistan Tartan Army
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:12 pm
I simply don't understand the mindset that says because someone has a different skin and culture to you they are in some way a threat. I have lived with so many races and they all want the same thing, a good life for their children and a way to live a life they enjoy.
All I have ever got out of living with different races is pleasure, happiness, a broadening of my horizons, a diversity of food and festivals, just everything that makes life more interesting. I can't think of anything worse than having to be with just one race forever, I'd be bored silly.
And Victor, as for the calling from the mosques, I know some people who view bagpipes on Edinburgh Castle the same way
All I have ever got out of living with different races is pleasure, happiness, a broadening of my horizons, a diversity of food and festivals, just everything that makes life more interesting. I can't think of anything worse than having to be with just one race forever, I'd be bored silly.
And Victor, as for the calling from the mosques, I know some people who view bagpipes on Edinburgh Castle the same way
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by gerber Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:18 pm
Sassy wrote:I simply don't understand the mindset that says because someone has a different skin and culture to you they are in some way a threat. I have lived with so many races and they all want the same thing, a good life for their children and a way to live a life they enjoy.
All I have ever got out of living with different races is pleasure, happiness, a broadening of my horizons, a diversity of food and festivals, just everything that makes life more interesting. I can't think of anything worse than having to be with just one race forever, I'd be bored silly.
And Victor, as for the calling from the mosques, I know some people who view bagpipes on Edinburgh Castle the same way
I might be of the same opinion if it is a windy day and I am viewing the pipers from a downhill stance.......
But I do object when I go around my local town and the East Europeans speak only their own language purely to harass - might be too strong a word, but when not in apparent earshot English is spoken.........
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Irn Bru Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:26 pm
gerber wrote:Sassy wrote:I simply don't understand the mindset that says because someone has a different skin and culture to you they are in some way a threat. I have lived with so many races and they all want the same thing, a good life for their children and a way to live a life they enjoy.
All I have ever got out of living with different races is pleasure, happiness, a broadening of my horizons, a diversity of food and festivals, just everything that makes life more interesting. I can't think of anything worse than having to be with just one race forever, I'd be bored silly.
And Victor, as for the calling from the mosques, I know some people who view bagpipes on Edinburgh Castle the same way
I might be of the same opinion if it is a windy day and I am viewing the pipers from a downhill stance.......
But I do object when I go around my local town and the East Europeans speak only their own language purely to harass - might be too strong a word, but when not in apparent earshot English is spoken.........
Hi Gerber. Go abroad and you will find ex-pat enclaves all over the world where the people haven't even bothered to learn or speak the local lingo. They even have their own newspapers printed in English just to make them feel at home. They have their own schools.
The holiday resorts are littered with Fish and Chip shops and cafe's advertising full English breakfast of egg, bacon and mushrooms by the bucket full.
We're not that good at mixing in ourselves when in another country either on holiday or having moved there permanently.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:28 pm
gerber wrote:Sassy wrote:I simply don't understand the mindset that says because someone has a different skin and culture to you they are in some way a threat. I have lived with so many races and they all want the same thing, a good life for their children and a way to live a life they enjoy.
All I have ever got out of living with different races is pleasure, happiness, a broadening of my horizons, a diversity of food and festivals, just everything that makes life more interesting. I can't think of anything worse than having to be with just one race forever, I'd be bored silly.
And Victor, as for the calling from the mosques, I know some people who view bagpipes on Edinburgh Castle the same way
I might be of the same opinion if it is a windy day and I am viewing the pipers from a downhill stance.......
But I do object when I go around my local town and the East Europeans speak only their own language purely to harass - might be too strong a word, but when not in apparent earshot English is spoken.........
Perhaps they don't want to tell you your skirt is tucked in your knickers Gerbs
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by gerber Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:32 pm
Irn Bru wrote:gerber wrote:
I might be of the same opinion if it is a windy day and I am viewing the pipers from a downhill stance.......
But I do object when I go around my local town and the East Europeans speak only their own language purely to harass - might be too strong a word, but when not in apparent earshot English is spoken.........
Hi Gerber. Go abroad and you will find ex-pat enclaves all over the world where the people haven't even bothered to learn or speak the local lingo. They even have their own newspapers printed in English just to make them feel at home. They have their own schools.
The holiday resorts are littered with Fish and Chip shops and cafe's advertising full English breakfast of egg, bacon and mushrooms by the bucket full.
We're not that good at mixing in ourselves when in another country either on holiday or having moved there permanently.
I am not against you..... i agree fully
That also drives me insane....... We were in France few years ago near Cahor...... they had clubs for the English expats, bars for the English expats, we were invited to the local village festival dinner, had to book, was paid for by our hosts................. All were expats. Will not be returning. Embarrassed for the locals who were sidelined. IMO a disgusting state of affairs and I did not wish to considered English so spoke only French...poorly but appreciated by the locals with whom we did sit at dinner BTW.....
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:33 pm
Ben_Reilly wrote:victorismyhero wrote:Sorry.....libralist lefty claptrap...
OH YES we, as in white, "average" person is supposed to to become "tolerant" and "multicultural". we are supposed to accept a noise like a scalded cat at crazy times of the morning as the local mosque call forth the "faithful". WE are expected to "respect" our "multicultural" neighbours sensitivity, whilst they ignore ours (the ENFORCED feeding of halal meat to those who dont want it being ONE example). We are "encouraged" to conform to "new standards "of so called decency of dress, if it affects our "sensitive " neighbours...whilst THEY continue to wear the disguise and concealment of the bukah and so on. WE are not allowed to protest about their "festivities" whilst THEY are allowed to disrupt christmas unchallenged (not that I personally give a flying f**k but lets have some reciprocity here).
try finding a pork butcher in these "multicultural" areas....or even a pork sausage.....
The whole concept of "multiculturalism is a myth...it works ONE WAY only. WE are supposed to "integrate" THEY dont want to/wont
THEY expect "special consideration" which only flows one way...the idea of ANY "concession " to multiculturalism results ONLY in a diminishing of OUR "usual way" of doing things
and STILL no-one has shown ANY benefit to be gained from "multiculturalism" any at all that could not be/would not have been aquired in some other way.
This has NOTHING to do with "bogey man" (oh a new invented icon for the liberalist lefty) mentality....why should I see them as "bogey men" BUT neither should I have to make THE SLIGHTEST concession to any ones "sensitivity" beyond what is normal and decent in MY society.....Halal meat should be CLEARLY labeled as such so I can have MY choice...not someone elses... If I want to eat of the pig then I damn well should be able to...without "comment" from those "others" and without having to travel undue distance to get my breakfast bacon.....and so on......
The bogey man (if there is one) is the liberalist lefty and his/her "multiculturalism" I dont want it...its simple...you live here ...you either isolate yourself and live in "enclaves" (which is by and by almost the prevailing situation) or you accept MY cultural norms and suck it up....You dont have to live BY my cultural norms, but you can damn well live WITH them...or find somewhere else more congenial to your "belief"
How much of this, though, is just having to deal with assholes and attributing what you don't like to their entire culture rather than to the individual asshole?
thing is Ben...if he's a white british asshole i can slap him hard verbally and get away clean with it, I might even be able to slap him literally and if I can Prove he was an asshole, normally no more said about it, or at worst a 50 quid "bound over" for a year. If he is one of those "protected ones" (of which there are a multiplicity) I get 3 years for "racially aggravated assault.
I'm very intolerant of assholism, but it's a creed that spreads through every known culture ...
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:39 pm
It's funny, one of my earliest memories is in Singapore the first time when I was 4. I had two mates, maltese boys a tiny bit older than me and we played on the beach in front of our bungalow all day, they lived in a kampong next door. They taught me to count to ten in Malay, and it has always stayed in my head, even though the one thing I am really crap at is languages and I learnt a little bit of Tunisian when out there, but it took a long time to go in!.
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:42 pm
Didge wrote:victorismyhero wrote:
they are merely an example....I could have included those of the "gang" culture, with their "rap" and so on...and many others too...each of which have their own "culural problems"
Again association fallacies based upon the exception to the rules
[Firstly IS IT labeled as such...dunno...never been to a footie match, secondly that STILL doesnt excuse it NOT BEING GENERALLY labeled in the shops so I can make MY choice...as I said ...MY cultural norms are set aside to please "the others". YOUR claims as to whether electrocution is better or not are not science based, but emotive...personally my understanding is that stunning is better...(in the sense of the lesser of two evils, personally I'd rather shoot my own meat...at least THAT way I KNOW its done humanely)
Why should it matter if it is labeled or, its dead meat like any other meat, which again has been available in this country for centuries. There is no evidence that stunning is better, maybe you need to electrocute yourself to know whether it hurts or not, because anyone who claims it does not is telling porkies
]Source of that "less than 1000" please
Show me it is more than that, in fact show me it is more than 500, I was being generous, not that it matters, as you miss the point of how such dress is not affecting you
wrong 30st of munter is not something I want to see thanks....but a nice bit of fluff in a mini...now THATS a sight for old eyes ::D::
Great so why do you not vilify all these overweight people and say they are a drain on society with that logic then, because it seems your logic goes out the window and you only vilify a group thus because they are Muslim then and not the way they dress, because you are certainly not vocal about how others dress
tell thats your "rose tinted" view didge, and you are welcome to it....
So no answer to main points showing your views are unfounded.
AND STILL...no one can show me any REAL benefits that we have gained from multiculturalism?? anyone????
Well clearly you did not read my post., what do you call America, if it has no benefited from multiculturalism?
A failure?
I think not, you have benefited from great food, music, dance, literature, I could go on with the benefits, you though chose to ignore them, shame really
great food?? where what? grate music..my god man have you listened to "eastern" music...it sounds like a train smash in a tin can factory
dance....uhm...no thanks...i just dont do "move it move it" or anything else of that nature...far too active old bean...literature...well now thats interesting...IS there ANY literature that has come here as a result of multiculturalism that is to say have any great works of literature been written HERE by another culture, as opposed to having arrived HERE, having been written THERE?(defining multiculturalism as a "local" enforcement of two or more cultures together, rather than an an exchange of ideas across nations...)
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Re: If you don't think multiculturalism is working, look at your street corner
by Guest Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 pm
The first one that pops into my head Victor is 'The Kite Runner'
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