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Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed May 27, 2020 1:19 am

First topic message reminder :

Four Minnesota police officers have been fired after the death of a black man who was taken into custody and seen on video being pinned down by his neck.
Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo said the four officers were now "former employees".
Footage shows the man, George Floyd, groaning and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" to the white officer.
The incident echoed that of Eric Garner, a black man who died being arrested in New York City in 2014.
The FBI has said it will investigate the Minneapolis incident, which took place on Monday evening.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52806572

So ... Minneapolis is a pretty big city up in the north of the U.S. ... can we blame this man's death on Southerners in any way?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:He was resisting arrest and fighting against being put in the car... One of the people in the vid was saying 'why don't you let him up and put him in the car?'... And cop replies that they had already spent ten minutes trying to get him in the car...

Bullshit.



No... It's in the vid on the daily mail link that syl posted up...



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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:43 pm





I very rarely give a red... As can be seen on my statistics... And I haven't given anyone a red on this thread... In fact, I can't remember the last time I did give anyone a red as it was so long ago...




And here's a report of what happened before...



The fatal encounter began just before 8 p.m., when Mr. Floyd entered Cup Foods, a community store run by four brothers, and a store clerk claimed that he had paid for cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill. The police got a call from the store at 8:01 p.m.

“Um, someone comes our store and give us fake bills, and we realize it before he left the store,” the caller said, according to a transcript released by the authorities, “and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car.”

The store clerk demanded the cigarettes back. “But he doesn’t want to do that, and he’s sitting on his car ‘cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself,” the clerk said, according to a transcript of the call to police. “He is not acting right.”


The dispatcher pressed for a description, and the caller described the man as tall, bald, about 6 feet tall.

“Is he white, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“Something like that,” the caller replied.

“Which one? White, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“No, he’s a black guy,” the caller said.

Not long after, Angel Stately, a regular customer and former employee, arrived at the store looking for menthol cigarettes. The police were already outside. Ms. Stately said the clerk, a teenager, was feeling bad; he had called the police, he told her, only because it was protocol.

The clerk held up a folded bill and showed it to her. The bill was an obvious fake, she said. “The ink was still running,” she said.

Ms. Stately said she saw an officer approach Mr. Floyd, with his hand at his gun at his hip.

The charging documents say that officers found Mr. Floyd in a parked blue car with two passengers. Soon, additional police units arrived and the officers tried to get Mr. Floyd into a police vehicle. But he struggled.

“Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers, intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still,” according to the charging document.

Even before he was placed on the ground under Mr. Chauvin’s knee, according to the prosecutors’ account, while standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying repeatedly that he could not breathe.




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Post by Maddog on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:



I very rarely give a red... As can be seen on my statistics... And I haven't given anyone a red on this thread... In fact, I can't remember the last time I did give anyone a red as it was so long ago...




And here's a report of what happened before...



The fatal encounter began just before 8 p.m., when Mr. Floyd entered Cup Foods, a community store run by four brothers, and a store clerk claimed that he had paid for cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill. The police got a call from the store at 8:01 p.m.

“Um, someone comes our store and give us fake bills, and we realize it before he left the store,” the caller said, according to a transcript released by the authorities, “and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car.”

The store clerk demanded the cigarettes back. “But he doesn’t want to do that, and he’s sitting on his car ‘cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself,” the clerk said, according to a transcript of the call to police. “He is not acting right.”


The dispatcher pressed for a description, and the caller described the man as tall, bald, about 6 feet tall.

“Is he white, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“Something like that,” the caller replied.

“Which one? White, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“No, he’s a black guy,” the caller said.

Not long after, Angel Stately, a regular customer and former employee, arrived at the store looking for menthol cigarettes. The police were already outside. Ms. Stately said the clerk, a teenager, was feeling bad; he had called the police, he told her, only because it was protocol.

The clerk held up a folded bill and showed it to her. The bill was an obvious fake, she said. “The ink was still running,” she said.

Ms. Stately said she saw an officer approach Mr. Floyd, with his hand at his gun at his hip.

The charging documents say that officers found Mr. Floyd in a parked blue car with two passengers. Soon, additional police units arrived and the officers tried to get Mr. Floyd into a police vehicle. But he struggled.

“Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers, intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still,” according to the charging document.

Even before he was placed on the ground under Mr. Chauvin’s knee, according to the prosecutors’ account, while standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying repeatedly that he could not breathe.




He was difficult.

Nothing 4 men couldn't handle without sitting on him for 10 minutes.

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Post by Maddog on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:50 pm

BTW, if Ben is looking in, Ft Worth has an 8pm curfew for the next 3 days. Shit kicked off on the W 7th street bridge last night.

I could here the flash bangs, tear gas and fireworks going off. So tonight we are back to closing all non essential business at 8, just after they got their feet under them from the Covid madness.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:55 pm

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:



I very rarely give a red... As can be seen on my statistics... And I haven't given anyone a red on this thread... In fact, I can't remember the last time I did give anyone a red as it was so long ago...




And here's a report of what happened before...



The fatal encounter began just before 8 p.m., when Mr. Floyd entered Cup Foods, a community store run by four brothers, and a store clerk claimed that he had paid for cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill. The police got a call from the store at 8:01 p.m.

“Um, someone comes our store and give us fake bills, and we realize it before he left the store,” the caller said, according to a transcript released by the authorities, “and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car.”

The store clerk demanded the cigarettes back. “But he doesn’t want to do that, and he’s sitting on his car ‘cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself,” the clerk said, according to a transcript of the call to police. “He is not acting right.”


The dispatcher pressed for a description, and the caller described the man as tall, bald, about 6 feet tall.

“Is he white, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“Something like that,” the caller replied.

“Which one? White, black, Native, Hispanic, Asian?”

“No, he’s a black guy,” the caller said.

Not long after, Angel Stately, a regular customer and former employee, arrived at the store looking for menthol cigarettes. The police were already outside. Ms. Stately said the clerk, a teenager, was feeling bad; he had called the police, he told her, only because it was protocol.

The clerk held up a folded bill and showed it to her. The bill was an obvious fake, she said. “The ink was still running,” she said.

Ms. Stately said she saw an officer approach Mr. Floyd, with his hand at his gun at his hip.

The charging documents say that officers found Mr. Floyd in a parked blue car with two passengers. Soon, additional police units arrived and the officers tried to get Mr. Floyd into a police vehicle. But he struggled.

“Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers, intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still,” according to the charging document.

Even before he was placed on the ground under Mr. Chauvin’s knee, according to the prosecutors’ account, while standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying repeatedly that he could not breathe.




He was difficult.

Nothing 4 men couldn't handle without sitting on him for 10 minutes.



Just giving the details that I found ..


I'm not trying to justify his death...



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Post by Original Quill on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Just giving the details that I found ..

I'm not trying to justify his death...

The details are: he could, and should have been put in the police car. Four police officers are present. More available. No reason to keep him on the ground, choking him to death.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:12 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Just giving the details that I found ..

I'm not trying to justify his death...

The details are: he could, and should have been put in the police car. Four police officers are present. More available. No reason to keep him on the ground, choking him to death.



I agree...




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Post by Guest on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:30 pm

Looks like the county coroner has been a naughty boy, giving a false cause of death and claiming pre existing conditions that did not exist.
Was he complicit in covering up the true cause of death, asphyxiation? Was he pressured by the police in order to help one of their own?
If so he should be charged with perverting the cause of justice.
https://mol.im/a/8377809

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:36 pm

Brutus wrote:Looks like the county coroner has been a naughty boy, giving a false cause of death and claiming pre existing conditions that did not exist.
Was he complicit in covering up the true cause of death, asphyxiation?
If so he should be charged with perverting the cause of justice.
https://mol.im/a/8377809

The prosecution need only prove that intentional asphyxiation is A cause of death, for the murder charge to be valid.

An independent autopsy ordered by George Floyd's family found his death was a "homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain," according to early findings from the examination released Monday.

The independent examiners found that weight on the back, handcuffs and positioning were contributory factors because they impaired the ability of Floyd's diaphragm to function. The report concluded that Floyd, 46, died at the scene.

Really, what you have going on here is the parties jockeying for position for the inevitable civil lawsuit.  Even civilly, under common law the defendant takes the victim as he finds him.  If causation is established, it doesn't matter if the victim had multiple health issues.  It's an old rule of law.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:53 pm

Brutus wrote:Looks like the county coroner has been a naughty boy, giving a false cause of death and claiming pre existing conditions that did not exist.
Was he complicit in covering up the true cause of death, asphyxiation? Was he pressured by the police in order to help one of their own?
If so he should be charged with perverting the cause of justice.
https://mol.im/a/8377809

Both investigations determined it to be a murder.

It's not uncommon for doctors to come to slightly different conclusions. Same goes for coroners. There is also probably some bias depending on who is paying you.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:06 pm

Not slightly different . Vastly different.
Read the original, untalented version.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:30 am

Brutus wrote:Not slightly different . Vastly different.
Read the original, untalented version.

Both called it murder, and both blamed the police.

That pretty close.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:15 am

Ben might be interested in this. Maybe others.

We knelt down together so we could all rise as one.

FULL STORY BELOW:

The night began like so many had nights had before at the old courthouse in Fort Worth. I had never seen so many diverse persons coming together as one people. A massive march snaked through city as demonstrators chanted for justice and peace for their fellow American.

At around 7 PM, the march organizers began warning us that we should start heading home. A few had heeded their advice but the majority of the crowd had remained. The raised fists remained stoic while the clock hands on the courthouse continued to inch towards the 8 PM curfew.

At around 8:30, a military-looking loudspeaker had been setup in front of the crowd with ominous warnings of looming arrests echoing through the streets. The circulating helicopter began to swoop in lower and lower. Unfazed, the crowd remained. It appeared that we were heading for a repeat of the prior night.

However, Lt. Latham from the Fort Worth Police Department broke through the line and I overheard him say something to the effect of, “We don’t want to escalate this. Let’s take a knee. We are with you.”
...
One officer stepped away from the thin blue line and kneeled in front of the crowd. He was immediately overcome with hugs and emotion. As if the blinders had come off, people standing opposite of each other had embraced in a glorious ecstasy of support. High fives. Hugs. Conversations. Something had finally clicked and we finally seemed to be making progress, even if momentarily.

Unfortunately the National Guard has the WORST timing of all time and arrived on scene with SWAT as everyone was embracing. (CORRECTION: I was informed National Guard was not present and only SWAT members arrived). This drove a new wedge between police and protestors who had thought they had garnered trust and some type of relationship yet were welcomed with riot gear. It appeared we took one step forward and two steps back. Sigh.
As the police intensified their presence, the chants intensified proportionally. Cops started closing in the crowd and warnings of arrests were being announced again. Motionless, people sat in solidarity in front of the advancing line. The immovable object had finally met the unstoppable force.

After about a thirty minute standoff with SWAT and the National Guard (CORRECTION: I was informed National Guard was not present and only SWAT members arrived.), Ft. Worth police chief Ed Kraus arrived. (He was with us at the march but he had left shortly after.) His presence was immediately felt. He walked amongst the demonstrators and had authentic heartfelt conversations with all who cared to speak.
Kraus spoke with several of the unofficial “leaders” of this remaining group and listened to their message. He did not just hear them — he listened. His humility and willingness to talk was a breath of fresh air to the monologue that appeared to fall on deaf ears.

After listening to their message, in an olive branch move, Kraus had called off the national guard and he kneeled alongside demonstrators. His fellow cops and SWAT members followed suit immediately.
Cheers erupted but many were still in shock at what they were seeing. They scrambled for phones and cameras to glimpse of what many thought would never happen.

But all was not okay.

Still concerned why SWAT presence was necessary at this peaceful demonstration, the lead demonstrators questioned Kraus about their necessity. They felt betrayed that they had remained peaceful all night yet were welcome with military gear and tactics for civilians.

Understanding their point of view, Kraus called of SWAT and the entire crowd rejoiced yet again. Cops and demonstrators embraced. Both appeared equally relieved to see each other’s humanity and the opportunity to go home safe and sound.

As if the director had called cut, everyone had dropped their facades and reached out to the human beyond the masks, the signs, and the pain.

Kraus announced “You just showed the nation how to do it.” Jubilation erupted.
By taking a knee, they finally saw eye to eye.

Many thanked their police prior to leaving and the crowd dwindled down to just a few samaritans who remained behind to pick up trash.

I left shortly after and waited alone in Sundance for my ride home. The streets had became eerily quiet. No chants. No sirens. No distant music from a random bar patio. Nothing.

But quiet seems to be pretty close to peace and I hope we can all reach a place where we can feel at peace in our community, our own uniform, and most importantly our own skin.

I pray this wasn’t a one night tactic but a true sign of what is to come.

Thank you, Fort Worth.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:37 pm

Nice sentiment. Too late for Botham Jean or Atatiana Jefferson, of course, but we’ll pass it on to their relatives.

So nice they finally found religion. Rolling Eyes

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:15 pm

Huffington Post wrote:Houston Police Chief Rips Donald Trump’s Violent Rhetoric: 'Keep Your [Damn] Mouth Shut'

Lee Moran
HuffPost, June 3, 2020

HoustonPolice Chief Art Acevedo on Tuesday ripped President Donald Trump’s divisive rhetoric on the protests that have erupted nationwide following the death of George Floyd.

“Let me just say this to the president of the United States on behalf of the police chiefs in this country: Please, if you don’t have anything constructive to say, keep your mouth shut. Because you’re putting men and women in their early 20s at risk,” Acevedo told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour.

“It’s not about dominating. It’s about winning hearts and minds,” the police chief continued, referencing Trump’s order earlier this week that governors should “dominate” anti-racism protesters.

Acevedo clarified that police did “not want people to confuse kindness with weakness, but we don’t want ignorance to ruin what we’ve got here in Houston.”

“And it hurts me to no end because whether we vote for someone or we don’t vote for someone, he’s still our president. But it’s time to be presidential and not try to be like you’re on ‘The Apprentice,’” he added. “This is not Hollywood. This is real life, and real lives are at risk.”

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/houston-police-chief-donald-trump-protests-070438131.html?.tsrc=notification-brknews (emphasis in title added)

I'm feeling a new, warm kind of respect for the City of Houston and Harris County, generally.  They have left the south, and joined the nation as the fourth largest metropolis.  Indeed, as we stretch outside of the Washington beltway, and away from the cowards that run the Republican Party at the top, we find more and more people who are disgusted with Trump and the RW swamp.  For those who were wondering where our leaders are...I think we've found them.

Two fundamental notions are involved here: 1) people are monumentally disgusted with Trump and the RW generally; and 2) the Washington Republican establishment is being shown the door.  A new America is far to the left of both parties, and Trump is sooo far to the right that he is not only the object of rejection, but he is associated with a new (political) infection.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:07 pm

Maddog wrote:
Brutus wrote:Not slightly different . Vastly different.
Read the original, untalented version.

Both called it murder, and both blamed the police.

That pretty close.

The difference is that the independent autopsy found that “...weight on the back, handcuffs and positioning were contributory factors because they impaired the ability of Floyd's diaphragm to function." The report concluded that Floyd, 46, died at the scene.

Chauvin only placed his knee on the neck of Floyd.  The other three officers simultaneously placed weight on Floyd’s lower body, preventing his diaphragm from functioning.  The diaphragm activates the lungs to inhale and exhale, and if it can't function the victim dies as a direct result.

This means that the other three officers were actively and physically engaged in killing George Floyd.  The case against them is not one of vicarious liability—ie, aiding and abetting—but direct liability.  They, too, are guilty of murder, and there is no reason not to charge them along with Chauvin.


Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:10 pm

Thanks Richard Cranium.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:12 pm

Maddog wrote:Thanks Richard Cranium.  

Thot you'd get away with that slippery answer, didn't you. This ain't Texas, boy. Evil or Very Mad

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Cass on Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:58 pm

They have upgraded Chauvin’s charge to second degree murder and have finally charged the other 3 officers.

New charges in George Floyd's death: Derek Chauvin faces second-degree murder; 3 other officers charged

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/george-floyd-death-charges-derek-chauvin-police/3134766001/

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Post by Victorismyhero on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:05 pm

ok...1st, 2nd, 3rd degree murder????????????????????

I kill ya
i kill ya a bit more
I kill ya dead ?



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Post by Cass on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:29 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:ok...1st, 2nd, 3rd degree murder????????????????????

I kill ya
i kill ya a bit more
I kill ya dead ?



1st requires premeditation
2nd requires it be intentional or reckless and occur in spur of moment.
3rd is basically manslaughter

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:37 pm

Cass wrote:They have upgraded Chauvin’s charge to second degree murder and have finally charged the other 3 officers.

New charges in George Floyd's death: Derek Chauvin faces second-degree murder; 3 other officers charged

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/george-floyd-death-charges-derek-chauvin-police/3134766001/

For the charge of 1st degree murder in Minnesota you must show intent and deliberation.  While intent may be inferred, I don't see why the deliberation element wasn't fulfilled by the words of the victim: I can't breath.  The subject of killing was thus raised, and thus Chauvin would have to have deliberated it.

As to why the State is leaving the charges of the other three to the vicarious crimes of 'aiding and abetting', I gather that the prosecutors feel they must stick to the State's ME finding in the official autopsy.  But you and I know that the State's finding is a cover-up, based upon the police lies.

They stack the evidence against defendant(s), always.  This time it comes back to bite them on the ass.

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Post by Cass on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Cass wrote:They have upgraded Chauvin’s charge to second degree murder and have finally charged the other 3 officers.

New charges in George Floyd's death: Derek Chauvin faces second-degree murder; 3 other officers charged

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/george-floyd-death-charges-derek-chauvin-police/3134766001/

For the charge of 1st degree murder in Minnesota you must show intent and deliberation.  While intent may be inferred, I don't see why the deliberation element wasn't fulfilled by the words of the victim: I can't breath.  The subject killing was thus raised, and thus Chauvin would have to have deliberated it.

As to why the State is leaving the charges of the other three to the vicarious crimes of 'aiding and abetting', I gather that the prosecutors feel they must stick to the State's ME finding in the official autopsy.  But you and I know that the State's finding is a cover-up, based upon the police lies.

Thanks. You’re the expert in this area but here’s my opinion as a layperson with minimal working experience in a justice court.

I don’t think they can go with 1st because of intent. I do think there was deliberation but showing intent is going to be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt. That’s why I think they stand a better chance at 2nd.

And yes I agree about the other 3 officers charges.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:47 pm

Cass wrote:
Victorismyhero wrote:ok...1st, 2nd, 3rd degree murder????????????????????

I kill ya
i kill ya a bit more
I kill ya dead ?



1st requires premeditation
2nd requires it be intentional or reckless and occur in spur of moment.
3rd is basically manslaughter

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:54 pm

Cass wrote:I don’t think they can go with 1st because of intent. I do think there was deliberation but showing intent is going to be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt. That’s why I think they stand a better chance at 2nd.

Interesting point.  In order for there to have been deliberation, but not intent, Chauvin would have to have formed a belief that he was not engaged in the act of killing.

Grounds for that factual assertion would have to depend on Chauvin's testimony, and a defendant rarely waives his 5th Amendment right to not give testimony.  You don't want to put him on the stand.  And Mr. Chauvin, with all this training, don't you know what happens when a human being cannot breathe?   Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 2190311264

Perhaps--but chancy.  You then have to depend on a jury to infer that he didn't form the belief he was killing Floyd.


Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:56 pm

eddie wrote:
Cass wrote:

1st requires premeditation
2nd requires it be intentional or reckless and occur in spur of moment.
3rd is basically manslaughter

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?

That's my belief as to intent, too.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:56 pm

Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement), but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:06 pm

eddie wrote:Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement), but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

The family lawyer has already pushed for that, having held a rally before protesters this morning...and previously, a press conference.  The report today is that the State is going in a different direction.  Apparently, the State has rejected his plea.

And it can only be a 'plea'.  The contest in a criminal proceeding is between the State and the defendant, only.  The family are witnesses, at best, and while their feelings might be considered, it is only informal.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:23 pm

Okay thanks. Seems madly unfair. He murdered him and I think his intentions were exactly that.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:31 pm

eddie wrote:Okay thanks. Seems madly unfair. He murdered him and I think his intentions were exactly that.

I don't see how it could be otherwise, but lawyers come up with all sorts of defenses. Here there's an added factor: jury racism, and the fact that it's a cop.

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Post by Cass on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:51 pm

eddie wrote:
Cass wrote:

1st requires premeditation
2nd requires it be intentional or reckless and occur in spur of moment.
3rd is basically manslaughter

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?

I think so, in light of him already being secured and saying I can’t breathe, but I think they stand a better chance is securing a conviction on 2nd degree, especially since Minnesota allowed that kind of force to be used. To me, intent would be like stalking someone or plotting it all down or hiring someone to kill another person. It’s going to be a huge issue with points of law and precedent. I’m going to ask my sister what her opinion is.

Either way he’s been charged with murder as is right.

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Post by Cass on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Okay thanks. Seems madly unfair. He murdered him and I think his intentions were exactly that.

I don't see how it could be otherwise, but lawyers come up with all sorts of defenses.  Here there's an added factor: jury racism, and the fact that it's a cop.

At this junction, the issue of a fair trial is going to be an interesting factor. This has gone world wide. Jury selection is going to be a circus.

Speaking of which, my 1st time being called for federal service just got cancelled. I’m disappointed but during this health crisis it’s for the best.

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Post by Syl on Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:34 pm

Cass wrote:They have upgraded Chauvin’s charge to second degree murder and have finally charged the other 3 officers.

New charges in George Floyd's death: Derek Chauvin faces second-degree murder; 3 other officers charged

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/george-floyd-death-charges-derek-chauvin-police/3134766001/
That's good news.
If passersby had not filmed this those cops would still be working and no doubt ill treating others.
Sometimes this modern  obsession of filming life as it happens has it's uses.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 am

eddie wrote:Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement), but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

You should ask the internet lawyer what the California cops that did this got charged with, and convicted of. The victim was killed.  Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Kelly_10

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:49 am

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement), but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

You should ask the internet lawyer what the California cops that did this got charged with, and convicted of. The victim was killed.

There are lots of southern cops in California, no doubt.  That's why the movement to reform police started in California.

Plus, has it escaped your notice that Devin Nunes, the most hated Russo-Republican in the House, is from Tulare/Fresno Counties California?  There was a time when California was filling up with southerners, particularly in the San Joaquin Valley.

If they are quiet, they can remain.  Though, I cannot for the life of me see why they would want to stay.  Given the way they play, their fortunes lie in eastern Europe. Wink

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Post by Cass on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:16 am

Syl wrote:
Cass wrote:They have upgraded Chauvin’s charge to second degree murder and have finally charged the other 3 officers.

New charges in George Floyd's death: Derek Chauvin faces second-degree murder; 3 other officers charged

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/george-floyd-death-charges-derek-chauvin-police/3134766001/
That's good news.
If passersby had not filmed this those cops would still be working and no doubt ill treating others.
Sometimes this modern  obsession of filming life as it happens has it's uses.

Exactly. I watched it once when it first broke. Once was enough. Made me sick.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:18 am

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement), but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

You should ask the internet lawyer what the California cops that did this got charged with, and convicted of. The victim was killed.  Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Kelly_10

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:12 am

Maddog wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You should ask the internet lawyer what the California cops that did this got charged with, and convicted of. The victim was killed.

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.  

Yeah, you love capital cases, don't you?  You southerners love to kill, murder or quickly dispatch anyone who disagrees with your white supremacy angle.

The fact is, you can't generalize from specifics.  Texas has had more executions by far than any other state: 497 executions out of a national total of 1331 executions since 1977, and so that's your measure, Redneck.  Should I remind you that there are 49 other states?  You lov killing, doncha?  Probably got a gun rack in your broke-down pickup truck.

There are 337 inmates awaiting execution in Texas.  No surprise that most of them are black.  That's how you make quantitative arguments, Red.  Didn't you learn anything in that junior college of yours?

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:36 am

Maddog wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You should ask the internet lawyer what the California cops that did this got charged with, and convicted of. The victim was killed.  Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Kelly_10

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.  


Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.

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Post by gelico on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:18 pm





https://twitter.com/NigrumFry/status/1267240834547830790




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Post by JulesV on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:46 pm

eddie wrote:Quill I know you understand the law far better than I, (understatement),


but surely Floyd’s family lawyer will push for first degree? He intended to kill that guy.

Better to keep the bar low, eddie. The chances of a jury rejecting a 1st degree murder are higher and everyone knows that WW3 will break out if this happens. Best to keep the charges against him milder than 1st degree.

The fate of the other 3 cops doesn't matter so much. They will probably walk.

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Post by JulesV on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:04 pm

eddie wrote:
Cass wrote:

1st requires premeditation
2nd requires it be intentional or reckless and occur in spur of moment.
3rd is basically manslaughter

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?
Killer cop knew everyone was watching and filming him choke the guy yet he did not fear the possibility of even a reprimand.

Who's to blame for a political climate where cops OPENLY and confidently behave so badly? Trump of course. A leader's attitude sets the tone. A fish rots from head down. king

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Post by nicko on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:06 pm

Does anyone know that on average Two White Policemen are murdered ever year in Britain ? Don't see much fuss made about this do we ?---------just saying !
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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:17 pm

nicko wrote:Does anyone know that on average Two White Policemen are murdered ever year in Britain ? Don't see much fuss made about this do we ?---------just saying !

It's not the same issue, nick.  White people/police did not go through 400-years of slavery, Jim Crow, peonage, separate-but-equal, segregation and discrimination, such that, with each black killing, we recognize and identify a war on black people--a killing spree that is perpetual and devestating.

White people, as a population, simply have not been discriminated against.  Indeed, they are the privileged overlords of this system.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:40 pm

Maddog wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.  

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.

OMG...it's didge, it's didge.  You ask an irrelevant question.  You chase down irrelevant rabbit holes.  The incident you raise doesn't matter, because there is no "trend" behind their cause.

People are most concerned about repeated instances.  There is a trend among police of killing black men indiscriminately.  It is the constant drumming of that trend that has people complaining.

Nor does it matter that it occurred in California.  Yes, California has had its share of southerners who have migrated there, and brought with them the infection of racism to that state.  To raise such a point is simple whataboutism--a game that didge plays constantly.

The answer to whataboutism is: what are you going to do to correct it?  You are not helping merely to say, hey, it happens over here, too.  You help things by finding answers, not by playing feckless games of gotcha.

Now get busy, or get out of the way!

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.  


Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.

Again.

What were the charges and what did the people of California convict those cops of.


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Post by Maddog on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:50 pm

JulesV wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?
Killer cop knew everyone was watching and filming him choke the guy yet he did not fear the possibility of even a reprimand.

Who's to blame for a political climate where cops OPENLY and confidently behave so badly? Trump of course. A leader's attitude sets the tone. A fish rots from head down. king

So all we have to do is elect a different president and everything will be better?

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pa·ter·nal·ism

noun

The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Empty Re: Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody

Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:49 pm

JulesV wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well...if you kneel on someone’s neck for eight minutes that’s premeditated, no?
Killer cop knew everyone was watching and filming him choke the guy yet he did not fear the possibility of even a reprimand.

Who's to blame for a political climate where cops OPENLY and confidently behave so badly? Trump of course. A leader's attitude sets the tone. A fish rots from head down. king

As malevolent and noxious as Trump is, it's not just him.  The Vichy-Republicans are as guilty as Trump for their complicity and appeasement.  Indeed, they started the deterioration of America with false wars, sanctioning kidnapping, torture, rape and a return to concentration camps back in 2003.  This lowering-of-the-level created the environment that allowed Trump to come to power.  It removed the guard-rails of good government, and prompted the deluge of alt.morality to rush in.

Trump (perhaps with Putin’s orchestration) has indeed carried it beyond anyone's wildest imagination.  The situation is to the point where we have to question whether democracy is gone forever.  Trump has already started questioning the next election, setting up a faux claim for invalidation.  It is notable that he has taken advantage of the peaceful demonstrations to place Federal troops around Washington DC, the nation's capital.  Nowhere else...just the nation's capital, where a take-over would take place.

This was the way of Fascists: phony claims, followed by real military force, platitudes followed by actual transgression (wasn’t the Reichstag fire such a maneuver?).  I think the US is being set up for a coup.  Watch the continuing assault on the election, and look out for more troop movements on the nation’s capital.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Empty Re: Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody

Post by eddie on Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:31 pm

Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 402cdc10

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eddie
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Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody - Page 4 Empty Re: Four Minnesota police officers fired after black man dies in custody

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:07 pm



"Black lives matter" only seem to sometimes care about how much black lives matter...


The danger to black lives from infection from corona virus, within that crowd, doesn't seem to matter to them...


And the lives of all those who may get infected by that crowd, also doesn't seem to matter to them...


And the fact that blacks murdering blacks in the US accounts for around half the murders every year over there, although blacks only account for around 13% of the population, doesn't seem to matter to them either...





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