Coronavirus updates (gelico's original thread)

[gelico]

First topic message reminder :

seems to be spreading rapidly

tests show it started in a animal market

[Guest]

I appreciated everyone's (including yours) good wishes for my health.
But I dont appreciate being asked "What's my fucking problem?" halfway through a decent debate, the accuracy about the subject has an important meaning to the morale and welfae of us all.
If Tommy and Gelico started quoting a website they found showing mortality rate of say, 50% would you trust it, would you query it with them, and if you believed it, what would the impact be on those who have yet to catch it?

[Guest]

I appreciated everyone's  (including yours) good wishes for my health.
But I dont appreciate being asked "What's my fucking problem?" halfway through a decent debate, the accuracy about the subject has an important meaning to the morale and welfae of us all.
If Tommy and Gelico started quoting a website they found showing mortality rate of say, 50% would you trust it, would you query it with them, and if you believed it, what would the impact be on those who have yet to catch it?

But again the website is only accurate based on the data known

It is only going off data it receives from multiple countries

It does not quantify the unknown

So you may not appreciate me say what is your fucking problem, but the reality is, they were attacked for presenting data, that the general public is going off

The website can only go off facts provided to them. It cannot quantify data, it does not have

Can you understand that?

So why would it be wrong for them to present this?

I never saw either of them claim that this should be trusted. They like everyone is simple going off data, which this site presntes based on data provided

How is that wrong to do this?

[Maddog]

Everybody just stop fighting. Please.

Thank you Didge and Gels. I appreciate it.

Then there wouldn't be any posts.

[eddie]

Please everyone, these are tough times. Let’s just debate politely and without anger.
Is isn’t too hard, surely?

[Maddog]

Please everyone, these are tough times. Let’s just debate politely and without anger.
Is isn’t too hard, surely?

Are you new around here?

[gelico]

Please everyone, these are tough times. Let’s just debate politely and without anger.
Is isn’t too hard, surely?

Are you new around here?

['Wolfie]

Let gelico and Tommy keep on posting up their bullshit lies --  only those two lying trolls will know why they want to keep on with their deliberate scaremongering crap "comments"..

And I will keep on posting the actual truth..

The fact that gelico and Tommy have 'doubled down' on their lying bullshit --  and turned to their false personal attacks against me instead --  only goes to show us that they are incapable of taking on board those articles that I've linked to above.

Whether that's because they're intellectually unable to grasp even the simplest statistics, or whether it's because the real facts disprove their scaremongering agenda, only those two nasty trolls really know.. (Note, also -- that I haven't actually criticised their sources -- but the bullshit scaremongering lie that they keep pushing. i.e. Tommy's false claim of a "20%" mortality rate..).

It's not like I'm alone in my criticisms of their deliberate lies, either -- eilzel, Quill and others have argued against them as well...

[Maddog]

Are you new around here?

['Wolfie]

be that as it may, it doesntexcuse wolfies pig ignorance and belligerent attitude....

And let's ignore the small fact that it was gelico who launched personal attacks against me on this thread...

And not the other way 'round..

Nor am I the only one criticising Tommy's scaremongering claim of a "20% mortality rate", that he has been pushing for some weeks now.

Eilzel, Quill, and now Brutus, all have proved Tommy and gelico wrong..

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext

[Eilzel]

Two friends have been diagnosed with it. They have been tested as luckily they live near places that have tests. One in Vermont, one in Maryland. I’m super worried about them as they both have it bad.

Sorry to hear that, Cass. Fortunately even vulnerable groups generally recover, though I appreciate that that will be small comfort all things considered.

Hope they get through it xxx

[Cass]

Two friends have been diagnosed with it. They have been tested as luckily they live near places that have tests. One in Vermont, one in Maryland. I’m super worried about them as they both have it bad.

Sorry to hear that, Cass. Fortunately even vulnerable groups generally recover, though I appreciate that that will be small comfort all things considered.

Hope they get through it xxx

Cheers love. One posted a picture of herself today to show the reality of it. It was gruesome poor thing.

Our idiotic governor FINALLY shut down hair dressers and nail salons and spas I feel
desperately for the workers as most of them are self-employed but there is no other way. We are still a few months behind the east coast.

Just found out that a librarian in my state succumbed. Goddammit

[Eilzel]

Two friends have been diagnosed with it. They have been tested as luckily they live near places that have tests. One in Vermont, one in Maryland. I’m super worried about them as they both have it bad.

Sorry to hear that, Cass. Fortunately even vulnerable groups generally recover, though I appreciate that that will be small comfort all things considered.

Hope they get through it xxx

Cheers love. One posted a picture of herself today to show the reality of it. It was gruesome poor thing.

Our idiotic governor FINALLY shut down hair dressers and nail salons and spas I feel
desperately for the workers as most of them are self-employed but there is no other way. We are still a few months behind the east coast.

Just found out that a librarian in my state succumbed. Goddammit

It's really tragic. Bad enough for those of us affected in terms of inconvenience and financially, but another thing entirely to be hit with the virus directly.

Hopefully the US government will provide financial support the way the UK government has.

[gelico]

be that as it may, it doesntexcuse wolfies pig ignorance and belligerent attitude....

And let's ignore the small fact that it was gelico who launched personal attacks against me on this thread...

where exactly?

[nicko]

You didn't, he's paranoid !

[Victorismyhero]

PTSD nicko 2 natural disasters in a row is too much for the poor old thing.......

[Original Quill]

Sorry to hear that, Cass. Fortunately even vulnerable groups generally recover, though I appreciate that that will be small comfort all things considered.

Hope they get through it xxx

Cheers love. One posted a picture of herself today to show the reality of it. It was gruesome poor thing.

Our idiotic governor FINALLY shut down hair dressers and nail salons and spas I feel
desperately for the workers as most of them are self-employed but there is no other way. We are still a few months behind the east coast.

You think that's bad?  The Republican Lt. Governor of Texas suggested that those threatened with the disease should be willing to sacrifice their lives in support of a healthy economy.  He was arguing against social distancing.

Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick (R), chiming in to support President Trump’s new focus on the economy over fierce warnings from public health officials, suggested that he would rather die from the rapid spread of the novel coronavirus than see instability in the American economic system, the Texas Tribune reports.

Said Patrick: “No one reached out to me and said, ‘As a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?’ And if that’s the exchange, I’m all in.”

He added: “I want to, you know, live smart and see through this, but I don’t want to see the whole country to be sacrificed, and that’s what I see.”

He can be buried at Arlington (Texas, not National. )

[Tommy Monk]

I appreciated everyone's (including yours) good wishes for my health.
But I dont appreciate being asked "What's my fucking problem?" halfway through a decent debate, the accuracy about the subject has an important meaning to the morale and welfae of us all.
If Tommy and Gelico started quoting a website they found showing mortality rate of say, 50% would you trust it, would you query it with them, and if you believed it, what would the impact be on those who have yet to catch it?

Listen you twat... I will say this one more time...


The figures are from here...


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


This is the organisation that has been collecting and collating all the official figures and other data from the start and from all over the world!


The 80% survival and 20% death rates are purely based on the known number of confirmed cases that have reached a conclusion... It does not include the huge numbers of new cases that have yet to reach a conclusion.

[Tommy Monk]

And I am also well aware that there are many more cases that have occurred but have not been confirmed by any testing so not included in the figures, where they have completely recovered...


But you must also realise that there has also likely been many deaths from this virus where they weren't actually tested and confirmed covid cases too, so also not included in the figures.

[Guest]

How many deaths worldwide go unreported?
Not many.
And where there there no evidence of trauma, or it isn't a result  of a known and on going illness, then there is invariably  a coroner's report, if not an inquest to find  the cause of death.

And don't start with the abuse like Thorin did, it demeans the debate and means you are not in control and are losing.

The figures you continually harp on about and keep repeating from that website ARE flawed, for no other reason than they are incomplete.
They possibly include me, I was hospitalized, tested and recovered.
They don't include my wife who has a mild dose, has NOT recorded and will recover.
So  even in our household the figures from that website ARE 50% out.

[Original Quill]

And I am also well aware that there are many more cases that have occurred but have not been confirmed by any testing so not included in the figures, where they have completely recovered...

But you must also realise that there has also likely been many deaths from this virus where they weren't actually tested and confirmed covid cases too, so also not included in the figures.

Tommy, I don't blame you and gelico.  You are caught up in a political battle over here, and hence throughout the world...over numbers.

The Trump administration wants to suppress the bad news in an election year.  That is why you are seeing such hypersensitivity over numbers.  Trump has said it's a Democratic hoax.  He has said it's only 15 cases.  He has said (back in February) that it will be down to one, by the weekend.  This pandemic is the apocalypse for the Trump cult.

It is particularly bad for his public relations, because he has staked the success of his administration on the economic success (mostly left over from the Obama successes, but that's politics).  He has nothing else...no wall, no healthcare, no wars won, no infrastructure, and he has been played by North Korea, China and Russia.  He needs to tout his economy.  Now this fookin' pandemic comes along and ruins his economy.

Never mind that the pandemic is indirectly related to his efforts to destroy the Department of Health, the CDC, and his de-emphasis on research and development in the medical/health fields. And, it is directly related to his disbanding the Pandemic Response Team, the very group that was set up by Obama to meet this crisis.  Everyone said he will meet his match when the first real crisis comes along.  Here we are.

Trump could care less whether anyone lives or dies (a poor quality for a political leader).  What he cares about is himself.  The numbers of deaths are his enemy, and he can’t handle enemies unless he can personify and vilify them.  So he strikes out at anyone…governors, healthcare professionals, anyone who makes him look bad.  But, what makes him look bad are the gigantic numbers of death and ill.  He can’t personify them, so he denies them.

This has created a whole subset of arguments, leading to reflexive left/right alignment.  Deny the numbers.  Deny anything that attacks the economy.  He wants to see the economy thrive…who cares about deaths.  So, he doesn’t like doctors, governors, social-distancing, face masks, ventilators—anything that bespeaks his failures.

And, because he is the architect of his own failures, the other side takes offense at anyone or anything that minimizes the numbers, attacks the doctors and (at least) the Democratic governors, or the measures taken to minimize the risk.

By posting under-representative numbers, you and gelico have stepped right into that shit-pile that Trump has created.

[Victorismyhero]

And I am also well aware that there are many more cases that have occurred but have not been confirmed by any testing so not included in the figures, where they have completely recovered...

But you must also realise that there has also likely been many deaths from this virus where they weren't actually tested and confirmed covid cases too, so also not included in the figures.

Tommy, I don't blame you and gelico.  You are caught up in a political battle over here, and hence throughout the world...over numbers.

The Trump administration wants to suppress the bad news in an election year.  That is why you are seeing such hypersensitivity over numbers.  Trump has said it's a Democratic hoax.  He has said it's only 15 cases.  He has said (back in February) that it will be down to one, by the weekend.  This pandemic is the apocalypse for the Trump cult.

It is particularly bad for his public relations, because he has staked the success of his administration on the economic success (mostly left over from the Obama successes, but that's politics).  He has nothing else...no wall, no healthcare, no wars won, no infrastructure, he has been played by North Korea, China and Russia.  He needs to tout his economy.  Now this fookin' pandemic comes along and ruins his economy.

Never mind that the pandemic is indirectly related to his efforts to destroy the Department of Health, the CDC, and his de-emphasis on research and development in the medical/health fields.  Everyone said he will meet his match when the first real crisis comes along.  Here we are.

Trump could care less whether anyone lives or dies (a poor quality for a political leader).  What he cares about is himself.  The numbers of deaths are his enemy, and he can’t handle enemies unless he can personify and vilify them.  So he strikes out at anyone…governors, healthcare professionals, anyone who makes him look bad.  But, what makes him look bad are the gigantic numbers of death and ill.  He can’t personify them, so he denies them.

This has created a whole subset of arguments, leading to reflexive left/right alignment.  Deny the numbers.  Deny anything that attacks the economy.  He wants to see the economy thrive…who cares about deaths.  So, he doesn’t like doctors, governors, social-distancing, face masks, ventilators—anything that bespeaks his failures.

And, because he is the architect of his own failures, the other side takes offense at anyone or anything that minimizes the numbers, attacks the doctors and (at least) the Democratic governors, or the measures taken to minimize the risk.

By posting under-representative numbers, you and gelico have stepped right into that shit-pile that Trump has created.

talk about talking tripe and "switching truths" and telling porkies, all to suit YOUR political agenda........
tommy and geli have, if anything, been talking OVER representative numbers.....


oh dear caught out in a cynical and direct lie...........and moreover one from which there is no escape by fudging...............................

your conversion to the dark side is complete...you are now a politician........

[Original Quill]

Which numbers, Vic? Someone makes money whether the stock market rises or falls.

And, whether the pandemic numbers show a high death rate, or a high contraction rate--thus lowering the death rate--the die is cast. Trump went from phase 1: deny, deny, lie, deny; to phase 2: it's not my responsibility, cause it's a state problem. The fact is, between phase 1 and phase 2, there are two contradictory arguments.

In reflection, whatever lefties respond to, the source is the Trump attempts to evade and avoid responsibility. Sure he contradicts himself. So, as his opposition thrusts and parries, the whole game goes round and round. That's the problem with confronting a liar.

[Victorismyhero]

no quill ...stop trying to fudge your way out of a constructed lie used to support your abusive friend....

YOU SAID "By posting under-representative numbers, you and gelico have stepped right into that shit-pile......"

implying that tommy and geli were posting under representative numbers in support of trump......


THAT is the lie..........in the best tradition of spin.....invert the truth in a crafty and hopefully un noticed way.....

but it didnt go un noticed......

[Guest]

Surely you agree that Tommy's figures are not representative of the ACTUAL and TRUE figures of EVERYONE who has been affected, died or recovered.?

They simply cannot be true, my wife, is among 10's of thousands just in the UK that have not been recorded.
Multiply that out worldwide and it totally skews those statistics, which even Tommy admits are only recorded from cases WHICH HAVE BEEN TESTED..
The question that then begs asking is WHY is Tommy peddling on a daily basis figures that he knows are not representative of the true figures?
Why is he doing it and what motives does he have for doing so?

[Maddog]

Surely you agree that Tommy's figures are not representative of the ACTUAL and TRUE figures of EVERYONE who has been affected, died or recovered.?

They simply cannot be true, my wife, is among 10's of thousands just in the UK that have not been recorded.
Multiply that out worldwide and it totally skews those statistics, which even Tommy admits are only recorded from cases WHICH HAVE BEEN TESTED..
The question that then begs asking is WHY is Tommy peddling on a daily basis figures that he knows are not representative of the true figures?
Why is he doing it and what motives does he have for doing so?

What site should people use to make the best informed decisions on this topic?

And who told you that your wife's case wasn't recorded?

[Original Quill]

YOU SAID "By posting under-representative numbers, you and gelico have stepped right into that shit-pile......"

Perhaps I should have chosen the word "unrepresentative" instead. The point is that the arguments go both ways, depending on which phase you are in.

When Trump argues there a fewer deaths, he is denying the whole pandemic. When Trump argues that it's the governors' mistake, he is saying 'yes, there is a pandemic, but they should have been ready for it'. It goes both ways, and the counter goes against both ways.

The point is, when anyone brings up numbers, two contrary arguments are raised. Pretty soon, the line between them is blurred. And when someone says: "there are many more cases that have occurred but have not been confirmed by any testing so not included in the figures", the poor guy is walking right into a trap.

All I'm saying is that tom and gelico walked into a thicket. If anything, I'm sympathizing with them. Making a textual argument in the midst of this flood of arguments, is like combating one ant when there's an anthill behind you.

[Guest]

Surely you agree that Tommy's figures are not representative of the ACTUAL and TRUE figures of EVERYONE who has been affected, died or recovered.?

They simply cannot be true, my wife, is among 10's of thousands just in the UK that have not been recorded.
Multiply that out worldwide and it totally skews those statistics, which even Tommy admits are only recorded from cases WHICH HAVE BEEN TESTED..
The question that then begs asking is WHY is Tommy peddling on a daily basis figures that he knows are not representative of the true figures?
Why is he doing it and what motives does he have for doing so?

What site should people use to make the best informed decisions on this topic?

And who told you that your wife's case wasn't recorded?

She hasn't been officially recorded as having had the virus. She followed the anonymous NHS 111 advice, had some of the symptoms commensurate with the illness and took herself to bed, with lots of hot tea and paracetamol. So no, no-one from the Government NHS statistics branch knows that she has had it.
She is on the mend, as are tens of thousands in a similar position. Unlike the US, our GP's are currently inundated, and will not see, as policy, anyone showing the symptoms.
If they become severe or life threatening, the advice is to call 999 and get the paramedics.

[Victorismyhero]

Tommy and geli's figures are correct for the KNOWN HOSPITALISED cases which in itself is scary enough, BUT, THAT said the true incidence population wide is another (and currently unknown) issue....I think tommy and gelis mistake is in not emphasising THAT aspect.

all they are doing is presenting the RAW data, which i would agree isnt the best way of presenting things, but at least its correct...if you (and others) are not bright enough to understand how to handle raw data ...well what can i say.....

we HOPE that the true incidence is indeed very high, because then the death rate really will be low, but we dont really know.
I suspect that i had it back in late nov/dec having had a mysterious continual dry cough and something of a temperture for a couple of weeks but until antibody tests are available i wont know and hence am hiding up my tree and repelling all boarders.........

If that should prove to be the case and 100's of 10000@s have indeed had it mildly then great and the stats do seem to bear this out.....

agenda? why should they HAVE to have an agenda??? agenda motivated types tend to inhabit the other end of the political spectrum to tommy by a large factor.

also , given the stupidity of the general public and the resistance amongst many (far too many) to social distancing and avoidance of transmission of this disease and the UTTER failure of these types to understand the importance of "breaking the chain of transmission" perhaps tommy and geli's "scary figures" are the best to use.....

[Victorismyhero]

AND...if you like "scary" statistics ..................... greater than 50% of patients that need ICU treatment die...........

[Maddog]

What site should people use to make the best informed decisions on this topic?

And who told you that your wife's case wasn't recorded?

She hasn't been officially recorded as having had the virus. She followed the anonymous NHS 111 advice, had some of the symptoms commensurate with the illness and took herself to bed, with lots of hot tea and paracetamol. So no, no-one from the Government NHS statistics branch knows that she has had it.
She is on the mend, as are tens of thousands in a similar position. Unlike the US, our GP's  are currently inundated, and  will not see, as policy, anyone showing the symptoms.
If they become severe or life threatening, the advice is to call 999 and get the paramedics.

So she wasn't tested?

[Original Quill]

Tommy and geli's figures are correct for the KNOWN HOSPITALISED cases which in itself is scary enough, BUT, THAT said the true incidence population wide is another (and currently unknown) issue....I think tommy and gelis mistake is in not emphasising THAT aspect.

Tsk-tsk, you can't give it up can you? "Hospitalised" or "non-hospitalised", it doesn't make any difference. Trump once said we have only 15 cases, by the weekend we'll have one...trying to make one prong of the argument (denial). It doesn't matter. Once you say more than one, you have a catastrophe on your hands.

[Maddog]

AND...if you like "scary" statistics ..................... greater than 50% of patients that need ICU treatment die...........

And for some less scary statistics.

183,000 Brits have been tested and 42,000 have come back positive.

Meaning a lot of folks that think they have it, don't.

[Victorismyhero]

Tommy and geli's figures are correct for the KNOWN HOSPITALISED cases which in itself is scary enough, BUT, THAT said the true incidence population wide is another (and currently unknown) issue....I think tommy and gelis mistake is in not emphasising THAT aspect.

Tsk-tsk, you can't give it up can you?  "Hospitalised" or "non-hospitalised", it doesn't make any difference.  Trump once said we have only 15 cases, by the weekend we'll have one...trying to make one prong of the argument (denial).  It doesn't matter.  Once you say more than one, you have a catastrophe on your hands.

which just proves that you are perhaps a better lawyer than epidemiologist or virologist.....

now go away for a bit and try to think why what you just posted is a whole load of bullshit....

and while you are at it try to think why, if what you posted ("Hospitalised" or "non-hospitalised", it doesn't make any difference) were true...tommy and geli's point would be the plain and unaldulterated reality

[Victorismyhero]

AND...if you like "scary" statistics ..................... greater than 50% of patients that need ICU treatment die...........

And for some less scary statistics.

183,000 Brits have been tested and 42,000 have come back positive.

Meaning a lot of folks that think they have it, don't.

which is good in one way...but........we need to know how many HAVE had it in the recent past.......THAT is all important....

[Maddog]

And for some less scary statistics.

183,000 Brits have been tested and 42,000 have come back positive.

Meaning a lot of folks that think they have it, don't.

which is good in one way...but........we need to know how many HAVE had it in the recent past.......THAT is all important....

That is important. Especially to create a cure. But it's also important to know that most who are tested don't have it. This way, when countries ramp up their testing they can do like S Korea. Test those with symptoms, then take all the positives out of circulation, and then test contacts with those positives. Take those positives out too. Then leave the rest alone. That's how S Korea has kept their death figures in the single digits for weeks.  

That's the only way to stay ahead of this thing. The Italian method aint going to work.

[Original Quill]

Tsk-tsk, you can't give it up can you?  "Hospitalised" or "non-hospitalised", it doesn't make any difference.  Trump once said we have only 15 cases, by the weekend we'll have one...trying to make one prong of the argument (denial).  It doesn't matter.  Once you say more than one, you have a catastrophe on your hands.

which just proves that you are perhaps a better lawyer than epidemiologist or virologist.....

now go away for a bit and try to think why what you just posted is a whole load of bullshit....

and while you are at it try to think why, if what you posted ("Hospitalised" or "non-hospitalised", it doesn't make any difference) were true...tommy and geli's point would be the plain and unaldulterated reality

[Victorismyhero]

quill...you are the living embodiment of the old adage that "having a degree (or other higher level qualification) is NO indicator of intelligence, merely an indicator of the ability to accumulate facts on one particularly narrow line....

[Victorismyhero]

oh and i "get2 the reference to brer rabbit and the tar baby, but i fail to see the relevance....perhaps its a "yank" thing?

[Guest]

She hasn't been officially recorded as having had the virus. She followed the anonymous NHS 111 advice, had some of the symptoms commensurate with the illness and took herself to bed, with lots of hot tea and paracetamol. So no, no-one from the Government NHS statistics branch knows that she has had it.
She is on the mend, as are tens of thousands in a similar position. Unlike the US, our GP's  are currently inundated, and  will not see, as policy, anyone showing the symptoms.
If they become severe or life threatening, the advice is to call 999 and get the paramedics.

So she wasn't tested?

Very few in the UK have been.
The only public who have been tested are Royalty, MP's, the very rich and those critically ill.
The rest just show British stiff upper lip and stoicism.

[Tommy Monk]

I have been totally clear throughout this whole thread about what the figures are and where the figures come from.

[Maddog]

So she wasn't tested?

Very few in the UK have been.
The only public who have been tested are Royalty, MP's, the very rich and those critically ill.
The rest just show British stiff upper lip and stoicism.

Almost 200K have been tested. Most came back negative. Also, most positive cases are not critical.

You should do a little research and stop attacking those that have.

[Original Quill]

quill...you are the living embodiment of the old adage that "having a degree (or other higher level qualification) is NO indicator of intelligence, merely an indicator of the ability to accumulate facts on one particularly narrow line....

You sound jealous. Attacking others is one of the stock responses for those who feel wanting. I tell them: each person has his or her own special qualities. You need not judge yourselves in comparison to someone else.

Stop being preoccupied with me, and go to work on yourself. You can be anything you want.

[Guest]

quill...you are the living embodiment of the old adage that "having a degree (or other higher level qualification) is NO indicator of intelligence, merely an indicator of the ability to accumulate facts on one particularly narrow line....

You sound jealous.  Attacking others is one of the stock responses for those who feel wanting.  I tell them: each person has his or her own special qualities.  You need not judge yourselves in comparison to someone else.

Stop being preoccupied with me, and go to work on yourself.  You can be anything you want.

Then allow people to be who they want

As seen you continually are deciding for others who they should be

By continually making false claims onto them

Gelico and Tommy simple posted up source that has nothing to with Trump and yet you decided this had to do with trump. To then decide who they should be here. You invented a lie onto them, to further your own needs and ego

Tate your own fucking advice

[eddie]

quill...you are the living embodiment of the old adage that "having a degree (or other higher level qualification) is NO indicator of intelligence, merely an indicator of the ability to accumulate facts on one particularly narrow line....

You sound jealous.  Attacking others is one of the stock responses for those who feel wanting. I tell them: each person has his or her own special qualities.  You need not judge yourselves in comparison to someone else.

Stop being preoccupied with me, and go to work on yourself.  You can be anything you want.

Tell that to Wolfie.

[Ben Reilly]

Let gelico and Tommy keep on posting up their bullshit lies --  only those two lying trolls will know why they want to keep on with their deliberate scaremongering crap "comments"..

And I will keep on posting the actual truth..

The fact that gelico and Tommy have 'doubled down' on their lying bullshit --  and turned to their false personal attacks against me instead --  only goes to show us that they are incapable of taking on board those articles that I've linked to above.

Whether that's because they're intellectually unable to grasp even the simplest statistics, or whether it's because the real facts disprove their scaremongering agenda, only those two nasty trolls really know..  (Note, also --  that I haven't actually criticised their sources --  but the bullshit scaremongering lie that they keep pushing.  i.e. Tommy's false claim of a "20%" mortality rate..).

It's not like I'm alone in my criticisms of their deliberate lies, either -- eilzel, Quill and others have argued against them as well...

I think what people are sick of from you is how nastily you make your point.

Can you not say what you have to say without calling people stupid names, without dragging other posters into it? Can't you just state your opinion? Say you disagree with these other posters?

Seriously, when you disagree with someone, you default to red-zone 150-percent offensive attack mode. Is that the best way to get your point across? Because all you have to do is read what everyone says in response to see how sick people are of your attitude.

[Original Quill]

Because all you have to do is read what everyone says in response to see how sick people are of your attitude.

I certainly agree with you about being civil, Ben. But did you ever notice that the "people" you reference are not JulesV, Andy or Brutus, et al, but the cabal of deep conservatives on this site.

You may think it's about Wolf's verbiage, but any independent observer would recognize it as a typical left/right division. They think they smell blood with wolf, and start wolf-packing when they think they've got your ear (no pun intended on wolf & wolf-packing). Believe me, admin only encourages them when y'all go after only wolf.

[Maddog]

Let gelico and Tommy keep on posting up their bullshit lies --  only those two lying trolls will know why they want to keep on with their deliberate scaremongering crap "comments"..

And I will keep on posting the actual truth..

The fact that gelico and Tommy have 'doubled down' on their lying bullshit --  and turned to their false personal attacks against me instead --  only goes to show us that they are incapable of taking on board those articles that I've linked to above.

Whether that's because they're intellectually unable to grasp even the simplest statistics, or whether it's because the real facts disprove their scaremongering agenda, only those two nasty trolls really know..  (Note, also --  that I haven't actually criticised their sources --  but the bullshit scaremongering lie that they keep pushing.  i.e. Tommy's false claim of a "20%" mortality rate..).

It's not like I'm alone in my criticisms of their deliberate lies, either -- eilzel, Quill and others have argued against them as well...

I think what people are sick of from you is how nastily you make your point.

Can you not say what you have to say without calling people stupid names, without dragging other posters into it? Can't you just state your opinion? Say you disagree with these other posters?

Seriously, when you disagree with someone, you default to red-zone 150-percent offensive attack mode. Is that the best way to get your point across? Because all you have to do is read what everyone says in response to see how sick people are of your attitude.

I don't think he will get it. He feels like a victim and in his eyes he's defending himself from a coordinated attack.

But you nailed it pretty good.

[eddie]

Because all you have to do is read what everyone says in response to see how sick people are of your attitude.

I certainly agree with you about being civil, Ben.  But did you ever notice that the "people" you reference are not JulesV, Andy or Brutus, et al, but the cabal of deep conservatives on this site.

You may think it's about Wolf's verbiage, but any independent observer would recognize it as a typical left/right division.  They think they smell blood with wolf, and start wolf-packing when they think they've got your ear (no pun intended on wolf & wolf-packing).  Believe me, admin only encourages them when y'all go after only wolf.

So what you’re saying is that wolf doesn’t go after the people he agrees with and/or LW posters?

Huh? So that makes it okay then? You don’t always agree with people but I’ve never seen you be as abusive as Wolf

Why is that?

[Ben Reilly]

Because all you have to do is read what everyone says in response to see how sick people are of your attitude.

I certainly agree with you about being civil, Ben.  But did you ever notice that the "people" you reference are not JulesV, Andy or Brutus, et al, but the cabal of deep conservatives on this site.

You may think it's about Wolf's verbiage, but any independent observer would recognize it as a typical left/right division.  They think they smell blood with wolf, and start wolf-packing when they think they've got your ear (no pun intended on wolf & wolf-packing).  Believe me, admin only encourages them when y'all go after only wolf.

What about him, what about her? Let's deal with one user's behavior at a time. The other mods and I listen to every complaint on its own terms. I've given wolfie a long, long-ass leash (pun intended) but the fact is, his nastiness is making this forum unappealing. The first reason for every forum to exist is for people to enjoy themselves, but he's sucking the fun out of the room.

[Maddog]

I certainly agree with you about being civil, Ben.  But did you ever notice that the "people" you reference are not JulesV, Andy or Brutus, et al, but the cabal of deep conservatives on this site.

You may think it's about Wolf's verbiage, but any independent observer would recognize it as a typical left/right division.  They think they smell blood with wolf, and start wolf-packing when they think they've got your ear (no pun intended on wolf & wolf-packing).  Believe me, admin only encourages them when y'all go after only wolf.

What about him, what about her? Let's deal with one user's behavior at a time. The other mods and I listen to every complaint on its own terms. I've given wolfie a long, long-ass leash (pun intended) but the fact is, his nastiness is making this forum unappealing. The first reason for every forum to exist is for people to enjoy themselves, but he's sucking the fun out of the room.

It's not like Wolfie is the only one on here that has a left leaning perspective.

But he is the only one that is an obnoxious human being. It's not his political stances that cause the problem. Nor the stances of anyone else. Most people can be obnoxious as an exception now and then. Wolfie is virtually incapable of being anything but.

It's unfortunate because he's not stupid, and actually pretty well informed on a variety of topics, but he has some sort of internal rage making him just too nasty to deal with.

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