More Brexit woe.

Tommy Monk wrote:You are just repeating the same old project fear remoaner waffle that we have heard for over 2 years now!!!


The British people have made the decision!!!


We are leaving the EU!!!


The sky is not falling in!!!


The oceans are not going to boil!!!


The moon is not going to relocate to Japan!!!


But... the British people will have democracy restored!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:
The British people are in charge of this country... or had you forgotten this basic fundamental principle of democracy...!?

Interesting how you claim to be a socialist and a supporter of democracy... but you argue in favour of a small group of corporations having control over our country for their own best interests and argue against the democratic will of the British people being enacted which restores UK democracy and our ability to control these corporations and their self interest in profits  over the good of the workers of the UK...!!!???

You need to take a long hard look at yourself!!!

Especially when you pretend to be a socialist and supporter of the working classes and of democracy...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge of this country... or had you forgotten this basic fundamental principle of democracy...!?


Interesting how you claim to be a socialist and a supporter of democracy... but you argue in favour of a small group of corporations having control over our country for their own best interests and argue against the democratic will of the British people being enacted which restores UK democracy and our ability to control these corporations and their self interest in profits  over the good of the workers of the UK...!!!???



You need to take a long hard look at yourself!!!


Especially when you pretend to be a socialist and supporter of the working classes and of democracy...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:You are just repeating the same old project fear remoaner waffle that we have heard for over 2 years now!!!


The British people have made the decision!!!


We are leaving the EU!!!


The sky is not falling in!!!


The oceans are not going to boil!!!


The moon is not going to relocate to Japan!!!


But... the British people will have democracy restored!!!

Eilzel wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

And that, Lez, is a big part of the whole problem...there are increasingly fewer of us who have been around long enough and sufficiently involved or interested to recall how the EEC trading bloc has advanced by stealth to become largely a political federation with delusions of grandeur that would place it alongside the USA and Russia, with the all the military implications that would involve.

Don't forget that the "ever closer union" has so far augmented trading considerations with foreign diplomacy and military policy (the "High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy already exists - unelected, naturally!) and  the EU Commission is known to yearn for a European Army.

None of this has ever been put before the European people - because the Commission will brook no interference or even public participation in its decision-making.

Like you, I want to see this matter resolved as quickly as possible. It is damaging to our trade, economy and living standards and the "negotiations" thus far have been an utter mess, with the fractious Tory Party resorting to its traditional internecine warfare, the Opposition leadership under the control of a dangerous hard-Left faction that seems intent on taking power by default and regardless of the consequences (probably civil unrest or worse) and an EU Commission that is determined to punish the UK pour encourager les autres because it knows damn well that similar opposition to its dictatorial and authoritarian form of governance is growing in a number of other countries, mainly among the newer Eastern European members but also the union's originators.

Surely it is not too much to expect that we can continue with mutually beneficial trade and commerce without giving up control over the security of our own borders, and that laws enacted by our own democratically-elected government and ultimately determined by our own established judicial system should not be subjected to annulment by foreign judges?

Since most of our own rules comply with, or go further than, EU rulings anyway, I don't see how or why people get upset over EU making laws anyway. Again, I think we just have too different of a view on the role the UK has or could have, especially in a reformed EU.

That said, we are probably leaving. And through May's stubborn perseverence we are probably leaving with a deal.

I completely agree with your analysis of the two main parties btw. Only, my fear with Labour isn't their leftism (indeed, I rather like that aspect), but their immense stupidity and opportunistic recklessness.

Diane Abbott can never be Home Secretary.
Corbyn hasn't shown a single sign of having any coherent plan for Brexit.

I want this Labour leadership to fail, despite my early hopes, and get someone better on the front benches (Yvette Cooper, perhaps).

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Les... wtf are you talking about...!?


Our rules ARE the rules dictated to us by the EU!!!


And if you think that the EU can be 'reformed' in any way by us remaining in the EU... then you are completely deluded... and you have more chance of riding a unicorn over a rainbow!!!


And Yvette Cooper is one of the most treacherous and anti democratic politicians in the history of parliament!!!


70% of Labour MPs represent constituencies who voted to leave the EU...


But Yvette Cooper is trying every trick in the book to prevent the democratic will of the British people being enacted!!!


You can't get much more treacherous than that!!!


Who the fuck does she think she is... that she thinks she is more important than 17.4 million people and thinks she has the right to stand in the way of democracy...!!!???


Yvette Cooper is a prime example of everything that is wrong in UK politics today!!!


It is us who tell them what to do... not the other way round!!!


And I really hope the twat gets removed from parliament in the next election!!!


As she is clearly not a servant of the people... but thinks she is a ruler of the people, and thinks she is a dictator who is above democracy...!!!

If democracy is to be us telling government what to do, why not just scrap politics altogether and have majority/mob rule?

You know why that wouldn't work as well as I do.

And for the record, I trust Cooper knows what's best for the country over the 52% who voted Leave. As Socrates said, you wouldn't let the people decide who steers a ship through a storm, you'd give the job to the most qualified

Lord Foul wrote:given that the EU is run entirely by an unaccountable and unelected "commission", and that the european parliament is a cosmetic joke with no power, there is no hope of "reform" in the EU whatsoever......

Andy wrote:I wonder how many Honda workers voted to Brexit ,  after being told their jobs were at risk?

http://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:You are just repeating the same old project fear remoaner waffle that we have heard for over 2 years now!!!


The British people have made the decision!!!


We are leaving the EU!!!


The sky is not falling in!!!


The oceans are not going to boil!!!


The moon is not going to relocate to Japan!!!


But... the British people will have democracy restored!!!

To be fair you repeat the same posts literally 40 times a week

I actually don't.

And yours are still filled with the same uninformed, 'I know better than experts' arrogant BS and bluster they ever were

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge of this country... or had you forgotten this basic fundamental principle of democracy...!?


Interesting how you claim to be a socialist and a supporter of democracy... but you argue in favour of a small group of corporations having control over our country for their own best interests and argue against the democratic will of the British people being enacted which restores UK democracy and our ability to control these corporations and their self interest in profits  over the good of the workers of the UK...!!!???



You need to take a long hard look at yourself!!!


Especially when you pretend to be a socialist and supporter of the working classes and of democracy...!!!

In a parliamentary democracy the public is responsible for electing their officials to do their job. We put our trust in them to know what they are doing.

Like we put our trust in doctors, scientists, bus drivers and teachers to know what THEY are doing. You don't tell those people how to do their job, because you KNOW that they know how to do their job better than you do.

You use a lot of meaningless words in overly long sentences, tommy. It doesn't make you sound smart, it comes across as arrogant waffling.

The biggest mistake in the past few years was cocky Tory leadership offering a referendum to win votes from UKIP. The reason referendums are not common in most countries is because any idiot knows that the public do not always know what is best. That majority rule can and does often lead to bad decisions.

You, and most of the 52% of Leave voters, do NOT know better than economic and political experts. And to show I'm not being arrogant here, neither do the 48% of Remain voters. The general public CANNOT be experts on the various issues involved in membership of a long established economic powerhouse like the EU. We can read as much as we like, and most of us do, but we have our own professions, interests and skills that are NOT the same as those involved in the day-to-day running of businesses and government.

In a parliamentary democracy we put faith in our elected officials to put the interests of the nation first. I believe in parliamentary democracy, not in mob rule.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge of this country... or had you forgotten this basic fundamental principle of democracy...!?


Interesting how you claim to be a socialist and a supporter of democracy... but you argue in favour of a small group of corporations having control over our country for their own best interests and argue against the democratic will of the British people being enacted which restores UK democracy and our ability to control these corporations and their self interest in profits  over the good of the workers of the UK...!!!???



You need to take a long hard look at yourself!!!


Especially when you pretend to be a socialist and supporter of the working classes and of democracy...!!!

In a parliamentary democracy the public is responsible for electing their officials to do their job. We put our trust in them to know what they are doing.

Like we put our trust in doctors, scientists, bus drivers and teachers to know what THEY are doing. You don't tell those people how to do their job, because you KNOW that they know how to do their job better than you do.

You use a lot of meaningless words in overly long sentences, tommy. It doesn't make you sound smart, it comes across as arrogant waffling.

The biggest mistake in the past few years was cocky Tory leadership offering a referendum to win votes from UKIP. The reason referendums are not common in most countries is because any idiot knows that the public do not always know what is best. That majority rule can and does often lead to bad decisions.

You, and most of the 52% of Leave voters, do NOT know better than economic and political experts. And to show I'm not being arrogant here, neither do the 48% of Remain voters. The general public CANNOT be experts on the various issues involved in membership of a long established economic powerhouse like the EU. We can read as much as we like, and most of us do, but we have our own professions, interests and skills that are NOT the same as those involved in the day-to-day running of businesses and government.

In a parliamentary democracy we put faith in our elected officials to put the interests of the nation first. I believe in parliamentary democracy, not in mob rule.

All the expert predictions made before the referendum have failed to happen, there was not an immediate recession, there was not 800000 job losses, there was not a stock market crash, in fact the opposite has happened. the economy has grown, employment is at record levels and the stock market is doing fine. the experts you are relying on are those with a vested interest in the EU.

Andy wrote:The high levels of (zero hours contract) employment on the cusp of Brexit are a red herring.
The real test will be in 1 year, 2 year and 3 years post Brexit.
So many large industries are uncertain of their future here it cannot auger well, especially as so many have already declared they are jumping ship to Europe or back to their base countries.

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:

All the expert predictions made before the referendum have failed to happen, there was not an immediate recession, there was not 800000 job losses, there was not a stock market crash, in fact the opposite has happened. the economy has grown, employment is at record levels and the stock market is doing fine. the experts you are relying on are those with a vested interest in the EU.

Predictions about what would happen immediately post referendum were scare mongering, though I don't remember predictions about massive job losses immediately post referendum result. The pound did plunge after the referendum though, and continues to fall.

Employment being at highs it countered by the fact many jobs these days are temporary or low paying. More people are in food banks than ever. The idea the economy would be unaffected by leaving the biggest economic block in the world is ridiculous.

And what of the scientists, doctors and business leaders who also state we shouldn't leave, especially without a deal?

Andy wrote:You could start by telling why you feel the need to flood this place with rw propaganda, when you already have a massively busy, dynamic and debate friendly forum of your own?

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:

All the expert predictions made before the referendum have failed to happen, there was not an immediate recession, there was not 800000 job losses, there was not a stock market crash, in fact the opposite has happened. the economy has grown, employment is at record levels and the stock market is doing fine. the experts you are relying on are those with a vested interest in the EU.

Predictions about what would happen immediately post referendum were scare mongering, though I don't remember predictions about massive job losses immediately post referendum result. The pound did plunge after the referendum though, and continues to fall.

Employment being at highs it countered by the fact many jobs these days are temporary or low paying. More people are in food banks than ever. The idea the economy would be unaffected by leaving the biggest economic block in the world is ridiculous.

And what of the scientists, doctors and business leaders who also state we shouldn't leave, especially without a deal?

the pound has been at about 1.12 to 1.14 for well over a year now, it did not plunge to 1.02 that it did under labour in 2008/9. Before the ref people were complaining that the pound was too high, it reached $2 to the pound in the mid 2000's. If you look at business leaders for instance almost all exclusively have a vested interest in keeping the protectionist EU going. doctors are misinformed, and scientists again have a vested interest.
what is clear is that the Experts trotted out got it entirely wrong

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows experts eh

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
the pound has been at about 1.12 to 1.14 for well over a year now, it did not plunge to 1.02 that it did under labour in 2008/9. Before the ref people were complaining that the pound was too high, it reached $2 to the pound in the mid 2000's. If you look at business leaders for instance almost all exclusively have a vested interest in keeping the protectionist EU going. doctors are misinformed, and scientists again have a vested interest.
what is clear is that the Experts trotted out got it entirely wrong

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows experts eh

Ah, of course, EVERYONE else is wrong - only Brexiteers are right - you guys should be running the world, right?

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
the pound has been at about 1.12 to 1.14 for well over a year now, it did not plunge to 1.02 that it did under labour in 2008/9. Before the ref people were complaining that the pound was too high, it reached $2 to the pound in the mid 2000's. If you look at business leaders for instance almost all exclusively have a vested interest in keeping the protectionist EU going. doctors are misinformed, and scientists again have a vested interest.
what is clear is that the Experts trotted out got it entirely wrong

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows experts eh

Ah, of course, EVERYONE else is wrong - only Brexiteers are right - you guys should be running the world, right?

I am saying experts are wrong, yet they poured this doom and gloom out telling us we would all be poorer and we STILL voted to leave.
the main difference I see between leavers and remainiacs is remainiacs are desperate for britian to fail, and leavers are not.
Most of us accept there will be some difficulties to start with but in the long run it will have been well worth it. Remainiacs would be distraught is the UK did well.

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
I am saying experts are wrong, yet they poured this doom and gloom out telling us we would all be poorer and we STILL voted to leave.
the main difference I see between leavers and remainiacs is remainiacs are desperate for britian to fail, and leavers are not.
Most of us accept there will be some difficulties to start with but in the long run it will have been well worth it. Remainiacs would be distraught is the UK did well.

That's just your own BS bias, Devil.

I am ardently for Remaining, yet even if we leave with no deal I hope for the success of the UK, always.

I just don't see how it will be easier and do think there will be some incredibly rough outcomes. Remainers do not want the UK to fail - at all. The whole reason we don't want to leave is to avoid the UK 'failing'.

You are so absurdly biased

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
I am saying experts are wrong, yet they poured this doom and gloom out telling us we would all be poorer and we STILL voted to leave.
the main difference I see between leavers and remainiacs is remainiacs are desperate for britian to fail, and leavers are not.
Most of us accept there will be some difficulties to start with but in the long run it will have been well worth it. Remainiacs would be distraught is the UK did well.

That's just your own BS bias, Devil.

I am ardently for Remaining, yet even if we leave with no deal I hope for the success of the UK, always.

I just don't see how it will be easier and do think there will be some incredibly rough outcomes. Remainers do not want the UK to fail - at all. The whole reason we don't want to leave is to avoid the UK 'failing'.

You are so absurdly biased

lez, you are confusing remainers with remainiacs, remainiacs will be distraught if the UK succeeds. you might be in a little bit of a bubble here, look at twitter to see what real remainiacs are like, they want people dead, disenfranchised or disappeared. They are vile and hateful and desperate for the UK to fail to prove themselves right.

Of course the EU is so benevolent that should brexit be a disaster they will welcome us back with open arms, wont they?

Eilzel wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
I am saying experts are wrong, yet they poured this doom and gloom out telling us we would all be poorer and we STILL voted to leave.
the main difference I see between leavers and remainiacs is remainiacs are desperate for britian to fail, and leavers are not.
Most of us accept there will be some difficulties to start with but in the long run it will have been well worth it. Remainiacs would be distraught is the UK did well.

That's just your own BS bias, Devil.

I am ardently for Remaining, yet even if we leave with no deal I hope for the success of the UK, always.

I just don't see how it will be easier and do think there will be some incredibly rough outcomes. Remainers do not want the UK to fail - at all. The whole reason we don't want to leave is to avoid the UK 'failing'.

You are so absurdly biased

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

If democracy is to be us telling government what to do, why not just scrap politics altogether and have majority/mob rule?

You know why that wouldn't work as well as I do.

And for the record, I trust Cooper knows what's best for the country over the 52% who voted Leave. As Socrates said, you wouldn't let the people decide who steers a ship through a storm, you'd give the job to the most qualified

an mp's job is to represent their constituents, all of them not just the ones who voted for them. they tell us what they propose to do via a manifesto and we decide whether to vote for them on that manifesto, both labour and tory mp's fought on manifesto's promising to honour the Referendum, the only parties who didn't polled 7% and 1% respectively

The Devil, You Know wrote:it is also quite clear the remainiac narrative that leavers did not know what they were voting for applies to them in spades as they had no idea what the EU was planning before the referendum. the EU army is on course now, denied by remainers, Conscription for under 35's also on the cards, eu wide tax raising powers on the cards, denied by remainers, Closer and closer integration and the nation state being removed. Did you all vote for that?

Andy wrote:Flappers siding with each other.

Quel surpris!