Brexit: My take on it

After listening to the debates on why we should stay in the EU, it seems to me it boils down to a simple choice:

Vote YES: if you care about money, jobs, market security, trade agreements all things are economic. (at least in the short term).

Vote NO: if you care about controlling your laws, immigration and democracy (where laws are created by people we directly elect)

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Additional: If UK vote NO, surely Cameron and Osborne have to resign and possibly call for a general election? Neither of them have a plan for a post exit UK.

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I think it's simply time for change. We need change.

I think there's a whole heap of scaremongering going on, from both sides, but I'm still decided on OUT.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:After listening to the debates on why we should stay in the EU, it seems to me it boils down to a simple choice:

Vote YES: if you care about money, jobs, market security, trade agreements all things are economic. (at least in the short term).

Vote NO: if you care about controlling your laws, immigration and democracy (where laws are created by people we directly elect)

----

Additional: If UK vote NO, surely Cameron and Osborne have to resign and possibly call for a general election? Neither of them have a plan for a post exit UK.

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Pretty good summing up Zack, I'm for in.   The thought of Cameron etc being given free reign scares the shit out of me.

Sassy, he dies t have free reign. He's a puppet like everyone else.

If you think the EU have more concern for the UK than we have for ourselves, then you're potty.

Zack... your yes reasons are rubbish...


My wage rate is the same as it was 10-12 years ago.

The cost of living has risen massively, rent has doubled over this same period.

There has been much trouble in our economy, recessions, job shortages etc while we have been in the eu.

Trade will continue if we vote leave.


The chairman of remain, Lord Rose actually said our wages would rise if we left!


And other people say our position on the other things you list for voting to stay in will actually improve too if we vote out!!!


But your reasons for voting to leave are definitely true.

When is the damn election?!

June 23th, can't come fast enough.   I'm on here because Dad has just put on the 4th programme about it that he had recorded and was watching one after the other.  Oi vey already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

sassy wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:After listening to the debates on why we should stay in the EU, it seems to me it boils down to a simple choice:

Vote YES: if you care about money, jobs, market security, trade agreements all things are economic. (at least in the short term).

Vote NO: if you care about controlling your laws, immigration and democracy (where laws are created by people we directly elect)

----

Additional: If UK vote NO, surely Cameron and Osborne have to resign and possibly call for a general election? Neither of them have a plan for a post exit UK.

---

Pretty good summing up Zack, I'm for in.   The thought of Cameron etc being given free reign scares the shit out of me.

Like I said, a sure way to get Cameron out is to vote out.

But for me, this is not a partisan issue.

Tommy Monk wrote:Zack... your yes reasons are rubbish...


My wage rate is the same as it was 10-12 years ago.

The cost of living has risen massively, rent has doubled over this same period.

There has been much trouble in our economy, recessions, job shortages etc while we have been in the eu.

Trade will continue if we vote leave.


The chairman of remain, Lord Rose actually said our wages would rise if we left!


And other people say our position on the other things you list for voting to stay in will actually improve too if we vote out!!!


But your reasons for voting to leave are definitely true.

You may have point about the wealth gap and wages.

Not sure if the wealth gap would improve if we left or even if the wealth gap is a consequence of being in the EU.

Lord Rose, the chairman of remain campaign, admitted wages would rise if we left eu.



Apply basic principle of economics... supply and demand...


Mass immigration = over supply of labour = costs (wages) fall...

Mass immigration = over demand for housing = costs (rents/prices) rise...


Mass immigration = downward pressure on wages as well as increase in living costs.

Tommy Monk wrote:Lord Rose, the chairman of remain campaign, admitted wages would rise if we left eu.



Apply basic principle of economics... supply and demand...


Mass immigration = over supply of labour = costs (wages) fall...

Mass immigration = over demand for housing = costs (rents/prices) rise...


Mass immigration = downward pressure on wages as well as increase in living costs.

Money Saving Expert Martin Lewis confirmed today he will vote for the UK to remain in the EU.
The financial journalist, cited as the person most trusted by the public to give a view on the referendum, today shored up his support for staying in the European Union.

In February, Lewis told Huff Post UK he was “55/45” in favour of Remain, but wanted to carry out more research on the issue before decisively committing either way. Today, Lewis confirmed his voting intention, but insisted he wasn’t campaigning for the Remain side and urged voters to make up their own minds.

In a blog today, Lewis said: “I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%. Yet just as my dream holiday isn’t necessarily yours, no more is my choice of what’s right a call for you to follow me.”
In his blog, Lewis deals with the claim that no one is presenting the “facts” of leaving or remaining by saying: “I’m sorry, but the most important thing to understand is: there are no facts about what happens next.”


He continues: “Anyone who tells you they KNOW what’ll happen if we leave the EU is a liar. Predicting exact numbers for economic, immigration or house price change is nonsense.

“What’s proposed is unprecedented. All the studies, models and hypotheses are based on assumptions – that’s guesstimate and hope.
“So accept the need to wrestle with uncertainty. The EU referendum is far from a black and white issue; there are more shades of grey than E L James’s bookshelf.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum_uk_57554347e4b0b23a261a666b?edition=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

"...what's proposed is unprecedented..."

!!!???


The UK not being in the eu and being a sovereign independent country with a self governing democracy through our national parliament of directly elected representatives with us having control over all our laws/rules/regulations...???


This is "unprecedented"...!!!???






The man is clearly a twat!!!

Remain is the best way forward. If anyone is so hell bent on controling immigration their only choice is leave.

You never know. If Leave wins Cameron may do an Ireland and be sent scampering off to Brussels for more concessions and then we'll all be asked to vote again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884

I see Tommy avoided the main points as usual and instead looked to divert, deflect and cover up.
That is the left motto Tommy.
Like he rightly said, nobody can say within anything reality of what would happen if we leave and those who do, are lying out of their arses.
Its all down to whether people have the balls or not to leave because again nobody has even put together any contingencies for all eventualties.
Like I say and its the same in general elections
Its always down to what money people "think" they wil have in their pockets and leaving will be seen as and again "viewed" as a huge risk when it comes down to the crunch.

Night then

What main points are there other than what I mentioned...!?

The Martin Lewis view is basically stay safe and vote for more of the same. This vote is far to important to be risk averse.

I understand the demand and supply argument but that's too simple. The government could still set immigration levels. Nor is immigration the main reason why wages are low compared to inflation. It's also kept low to encourage foreign investment.

Wages could be low and acceptably so if costs of living weren't so high.

Main cost being rent... driven up by demand (immigration).


We don't want more of the same... that is why we wanted a say in the first place... to get out of more of the same and to get control of our country back!

Fuzzy Zack wrote:The Martin Lewis view is basically stay safe and vote for more of the same. This vote is far to important to be risk averse.

I understand the demand and supply argument but that's too simple. The government could still set immigration levels. Nor is immigration the main reason why wages are low compared to inflation. It's also kept low to encourage foreign investment.

Honestly? I'm not voting according to policies as there's always pluses and minuses on either side - I am voting out because I want to see change as its time for change.
And I don't trust the USA poking their noses in.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Zack... your yes reasons are rubbish...

My wage rate is the same as it was 10-12 years ago.

The cost of living has risen massively, rent has doubled over this same period.

There has been much trouble in our economy, recessions, job shortages etc while we have been in the eu.

Trade will continue if we vote leave.

The chairman of remain, Lord Rose actually said our wages would rise if we left!

And other people say our position on the other things you list for voting to stay in will actually improve too if we vote out!!!

But your reasons for voting to leave are definitely true.

You may have point about the wealth gap and wages.

THAT FLAT WAGE problem is worldwide, not just over there in Europe...

CONSIDER THIS :  over the last 10-15 years, average wages for average workers in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, S. Korea, etc. have only increased by 1-->2% each year, while at the same time  inflation has been running at an annual rate of 2-->3%. So, effectively, workers have been gradually slipping behind each year -- so that now, "average wages" for your average everyday workers in 'First World' countries are actually 20-25% lower when adjusted for compounding, and the effects of skyrocketing rents, food and energy costs, then they were a decade ago !!!

AND WHO'S TO BLAME ?
None other than those big business goons and financiers influencing the conservative governments to keep wages low and costs down, in the name of "Economic Rationalism" and the widely disproven and failed Reagan/Thatcher "trickle down" policies from the 1980s..

THE VERY SAME big bosses who have often easily doubled their own wealth and incomes in that same period, and the same financiers who caused the "GFC" back in 2007/'08.          

If we leave nothing is guaranteed. The biggest gripe of the put campaign is immigration. If we leave but want to remain in the single market then free movement of people will almost certainly be a condition of being part of it. So with risk of economic instability without really getting that little control of our borders back- what is the point.

Also, people are stupid if they think the Tories are going to sprinkle fairy dust of the UK post EU if that happens.

Who says we will have economic instability? The IN campaigners?

Scaremongering on both sides.

Why do the USA want us in so badly?

In any case, we won't leave; we won't be allowed to.

Nonsense, of course if we vite to stay you will say its a conspiracy anyway since you always have thay card on call hahaha

And obviously there will be instability. The pound dropped in value the moment that referendum was announced. It is ridiculously naive to think a country can leave a massive economic union and it have NO effect. Gove and Johnson have pretty much admitted there would be.

The US and world economy as well as mostly the British, would be affected by the change, of course everyone will be anxious. Are you unaware we live in an interconncted world?

Are you unaware that money will eventually be phased out? And sooner rather than later.
Are you unaware that the leaders of the countries aren't the leaders of the world?

Who do you think makes the rules?

There is no right or wrong - we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I'd rather be damned for trying to change than sat thinking things will change by doing nothing.

Corporations and lobbyists have massive influence but I'm going to disregard any suggestion of a NWO you may intend there.

And those corporations, you think the Tories will suddenlt stand up to corporate interests in a post EU Britain? Really, Eddie? Really?

Physical money may be phased out, but not in its digital form, which today is really all that matters.

And again, no one, absolutely no one, has said do nothing. Another falsehood pushed by the out campaign.

Oh I don't think the Tories will do anything - well, anything that will benefit the ordinary working man like our fathers. I'm under no illusion.

Just as a separate side issue, Cameron was asked if he'd resign should we leave the EU. His answer!

"Well why would I?"

Personally I don't see why he should resign, he promised a referendum and we're getting one.

However, if he did resign that would be a lovely consolation prize haha, unless Boris or Gove replaced him- fuck that lol

Totally agree on that one.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You may have point about the wealth gap and wages.

THAT FLAT WAGE problem is worldwide, not just over there in Europe...

CONSIDER THIS :  over the last 10-15 years, average wages for average workers in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, S. Korea, etc. have only increased by 1-->2% each year, while at the same time  inflation has been running at an annual rate of 2-->3%. So, effectively, workers have been gradually slipping behind each year -- so that now, "average wages" for your average everyday workers in 'First World' countries are actually 20-25% lower when adjusted for compounding, and the effects of skyrocketing rents, food and energy costs, then they were a decade ago !!!

AND WHO'S TO BLAME ?
None other than those big business goons and financiers influencing the conservative governments to keep wages low and costs down, in the name of "Economic Rationalism" and the widely disproven and failed Reagan/Thatcher "trickle down" policies from the 1980s..

THE VERY SAME big bosses who have often easily doubled their own wealth and incomes in that same period, and the same financiers who caused the "GFC" back in 2007/'08.          

But don't you understand my point...!?


Wages would be fine with low rise if we weren't subjected to massive rise in costs of living that mass immigration has caused!!!


Eg... Renting a 1 bed flat has gone from 1 weeks wages to now costing 2 weeks wages for me but my weekly wage has remained the same over the same period of 10-12 years!!!


I would be quite happy with earning the same if my costs hadn't doubled!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Wages could be low and acceptably so if costs of living weren't so high.

Main cost being rent... driven up by demand (immigration).


We don't want more of the same... that is why we wanted a say in the first place... to get out of more of the same and to get control of our country back!

You do realise none of these things will necessarily change if we vote out.

And sorry, but your economic analysis is a bit simplistic. There are many forces driving rent up in some areas. a lot of which happened over the last 15 years before the financial crisis.

But yes, at least you'll know who to blame. That's the only control you'll have.

eddie wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:The Martin Lewis view is basically stay safe and vote for more of the same. This vote is far to important to be risk averse.

I understand the demand and supply argument but that's too simple. The government could still set immigration levels. Nor is immigration the main reason why wages are low compared to inflation. It's also kept low to encourage foreign investment.

Honestly? I'm not voting according to policies as there's always pluses and minuses on either side - I am voting out because I want to see change as its time for change.
And I don't trust the USA poking their noses in.

One view is that if we're not in the EU, we'll just end up being The US's side-bitch. A poor 51st state. Which one do you prefer?

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You may have point about the wealth gap and wages.

THAT FLAT WAGE problem is worldwide, not just over there in Europe...

CONSIDER THIS :  over the last 10-15 years, average wages for average workers in the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, S. Korea, etc. have only increased by 1-->2% each year, while at the same time  inflation has been running at an annual rate of 2-->3%. So, effectively, workers have been gradually slipping behind each year -- so that now, "average wages" for your average everyday workers in 'First World' countries are actually 20-25% lower when adjusted for compounding, and the effects of skyrocketing rents, food and energy costs, then they were a decade ago !!!

AND WHO'S TO BLAME ?
None other than those big business goons and financiers influencing the conservative governments to keep wages low and costs down, in the name of "Economic Rationalism" and the widely disproven and failed Reagan/Thatcher "trickle down" policies from the 1980s..

THE VERY SAME big bosses who have often easily doubled their own wealth and incomes in that same period, and the same financiers who caused the "GFC" back in 2007/'08.          

I agree - it's all part of the globalising of labour.

But then that's an argument of having control of our trade or investment agreements and we will know who to blame.

Right now agreements such as TTIP have been conducted behind closed doors.

Eilzel wrote:Personally I don't see why he should resign, he promised a referendum and we're getting one.

However, if he did resign that would be a lovely consolation prize haha, unless Boris or Gove replaced him- fuck that lol

Because he does not have a plan for a post exit UK.

I think we will need a general election within the year.

Of course this will increase uncertainty. Investors are already taking their money out of the U.K.

TTIP has always been the thing that worried me, but it seems that that problem might be solved.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Wages could be low and acceptably so if costs of living weren't so high.

Main cost being rent... driven up by demand (immigration).


We don't want more of the same... that is why we wanted a say in the first place... to get out of more of the same and to get control of our country back!

You do realise none of these things will necessarily change if we vote out.

And sorry, but your economic analysis is a bit simplistic. There are many forces driving rent up in some areas. a lot of which happened over the last 15 years before the financial crisis.

But yes, at least you'll know who to blame. That's the only control you'll have.

Can you elaborate?

Tommy Monk wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You do realise none of these things will necessarily change if we vote out.

And sorry, but your economic analysis is a bit simplistic. There are many forces driving rent up in some areas. a lot of which happened over the last 15 years before the financial crisis.

But yes, at least you'll know who to blame. That's the only control you'll have.

Can you elaborate?

Yes - but not now.

I'll sign in later.

Low blood sugar.

sassy wrote:TTIP has always been the thing that worried me, but it seems that that problem might be solved.

No it hasn't... while the eu remain in control, they will just bring it all in bit by bit anyway...


Don't be a fool sassy!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You do realise none of these things will necessarily change if we vote out.

And sorry, but your economic analysis is a bit simplistic. There are many forces driving rent up in some areas. a lot of which happened over the last 15 years before the financial crisis.

But yes, at least you'll know who to blame. That's the only control you'll have.

Can you elaborate?

http://positivemoney.org/issues/house-prices/

As house prices go up, rental yeilds go up. Otherwise people would just keep their money in the bank and not invest.

Then of course agents collude in local areas to keep local investment fluid. Otherwise they run out of work.

There are/were many forces at work. Not just immigration. That's why I said your analysis is too simple.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Can you elaborate?

http://positivemoney.org/issues/house-prices/

As house prices go up, rental yeilds go up. Otherwise people would just keep their money in the bank and not invest.

Then of course agents collude in local areas to keep local investment fluid. Otherwise they run out of work.

There are/were many forces at work. Not just immigration.  That's why I said your analysis is too simple.

It's probably the most complicated problem with so many forces at work, from banking, to countries and the superrich investing in property here and so on and so forth.   To try and put is down to one thing is missing the whole point.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Can you elaborate?

http://positivemoney.org/issues/house-prices/

As house prices go up, rental yeilds go up. Otherwise people would just keep their money in the bank and not invest.

Then of course agents collude in local areas to keep local investment fluid. Otherwise they run out of work.

There are/were many forces at work. Not just immigration.  That's why I said your analysis is too simple.

And what has caused house prices to rise so massively and disproportionately over the last 15 years or so...!?


Mass immigration has caused the increased demand...


Basic economics Zack!


Not only has the increase in supply of labour held down wages... but also increased demand for housing pushing up costs of living!!!

No Tommy, Chinese billionaires buying up half of London forced the prices up, Developers forced the prices up, they also bought and left to rot to make a profit.  It's complicated so obviously beyond you.

Your bullshit is too complicated for you to understand and to see it as bullshit... it's just what your local labour hq feeds you to repeat...


Basic economics is supply/demand...


And even simple enough for a cretin like you to understand...