More Brexit woe.

First topic message reminder :

Empty shelves.

BBC News - No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748

Corrupt = corrupt...


Dictatorship = Dictatorship...



When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:Corrupt = corrupt...


Dictatorship = Dictatorship...



When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?

"Tommy Monk wrote:
So you admit the EU is corrupt... but you deny that it is a dictatorship.."

You conflated corruption and dictatorship, not me.

We vote for representatives, who took us into the EU. It may not be 'pure' democracy, but then the parliamentary system itself isn't 'pure' democracy. And regardless, we still have MEPs and British representation in the EU.

With the EU... Corrupt & Dictatorship come hand in hand...!!!


When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?


If the answer is 'never'... which IS the answer... then the current situation where the UK is a subservient rule taker from the EU, which is a corrupt dictatorship, as the british people have never agreed to be subservient to any of it... then how can you even dare try to claim it has any democratic legitimacy at all...!?


Its all built on a jelly of smoke and mirrors!!!


You couldn't get any more corrupt than that... and the fact that it is claiming to be in a position of authority over the UK parliament, couldn't get much more dictatorial!!!


Therefore... Corrupt and dictatorship...!!!



I really find it impossible to understand how anyone in their right mind would be supportive of the EU in any way at all...!!!???

Tommy Monk wrote:With the EU... Corrupt & Dictatorship come hand in hand...!!!


When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?


If the answer is 'never'... which IS the answer... then the current situation where the UK is a subservient rule taker from the EU, which is a corrupt dictatorship, as the british people have never agreed to be subservient to any of it... then how can you even dare try to claim it has any democratic legitimacy at all...!?


Its all built on a jelly of smoke and mirrors!!!


You couldn't get any more corrupt than that... and the fact that it is claiming to be in a position of authority over the UK parliament, couldn't get much more dictatorial!!!


Therefore... Corrupt and dictatorship...!!!



I really find it impossible to understand how anyone in their right mind would be supportive of the EU in any way at all...!!!???

That's because you don't listen

I might disagree with Brexiteers, but at least I have the mental capacity to understand the reasons they voted that way.

"we have British MEP's and British representation in the EU! But Les, when do they listen to us ?

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Corrupt = corrupt...


Dictatorship = Dictatorship...



When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?

"Tommy Monk wrote:
So you admit the EU is corrupt... but you deny that it is a dictatorship.."

You conflated corruption and dictatorship, not me.

We vote for representatives, who took us into the EU. It may not be 'pure' democracy, but then the parliamentary system itself isn't 'pure' democracy. And regardless, we still have MEPs and British representation in the EU.

Hi Lez. You are not quite correct in saying that our representatives (b.t.w.it is sometimes misunderstood that MPs represent their constituencies but are not "delegates") took us into the EU, as the EU did not exist on January 1, 1973 when the UK, under Harold Wilson, joined along with Ireland and Denmark following the death of De Gaulle who had been implacably opposed to our membership.

What we actually joined was the European Economic Community, better known as the Common Market...a trading bloc that succeeded what had been a coal, iron and steel federation set up primarily by France and Germany. De Gaulle had twice turned down our application to join during the 1960s.

In 1975 British voters were asked in a referendum whether they wished to stay in that EEC and voted substantially in favour. But - and this is why many people, myself included, voted to leave in the 2013 referendum - at no point since were we given any opportunity to express our democratic right to decide whether we wished to be part of "an ever closer union" - for which read embryonic United States of Europe - governed by an unelected President and executive.

Not one of the people who actually control the European Union - and who decided unilaterally to pursue the policy of "ever closer union" together with powers over the virtual minutiae of our daily lives through a system of "diktats" that can supersede, and indeed, overturn the decisions of elected governments and a country's supreme court -   has ever been chosen through the universal suffrage of the electors of the sovereign states that make up the EU. Not one.

Ah, you may say, but we have the European Parliament. Well apart from the fact that it is riddled with greed, corruption and self-service (think parliamentary expenses scandal...that wasn't restricted to the UK Parliament); is politically a toothless talking shop (when MEPs actually turn up to do anything other than clock in to claim their lavish expenses) and that its members are elected under a ridiculous system which means that few of us can name our MEP or say what he or she actually does or has done, and which gave us such honest, public-spirited and selfless public servants as, er, the odious and notorious Nick Griffin...there are no prizes for guessing my opinion on that particular body.

Oh, and I speak from experience as I have actually attended  sittings of the EU Parliament, and my job entailed a number of visits to Brussels and Stasbourg where I was involved in meetings with MEPs, civil servants and even, on a couple of occasions, with Commissioners.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Corrupt = corrupt...


Dictatorship = Dictatorship...



When did the British people ever agree for our country to be subservient to anyone else other than the British people and our UK parliamentary elected government...!?

"Tommy Monk wrote:
So you admit the EU is corrupt... but you deny that it is a dictatorship.."

You conflated corruption and dictatorship, not me.

We vote for representatives, who took us into the EU. It may not be 'pure' democracy, but then the parliamentary system itself isn't 'pure' democracy. And regardless, we still have MEPs and British representation in the EU.

Hi Lez. You are not quite correct in saying that our representatives (b.t.w.it is sometimes misunderstood that MPs represent their constituencies but are not "delegates") took us into the EU, as the EU did not exist on January 1, 1973 when the UK, under Harold Wilson, joined along with Ireland and Denmark following the death of De Gaulle who had been implacably opposed to our membership.

What we actually joined was the European Economic Community, better known as the Common Market...a trading bloc that succeeded what had been a coal, iron and steel federation set up primarily by France and Germany. De Gaulle had twice turned down our application to join during the 1960s.

In 1975 British voters were asked in a referendum whether they wished to stay in that EEC and voted substantially in favour. But - and this is why many people, myself included, voted to leave in the 2013 referendum - at no point since were we given any opportunity to express our democratic right to decide whether we wished to be part of "an ever closer union" - for which read embryonic United States of Europe - governed by an unelected President and executive.

Not one of the people who actually control the European Union - and who decided unilaterally to pursue the policy of "ever closer union" together with powers over the virtual minutiae of our daily lives through a system of "diktats" that can supersede, and indeed, overturn the decisions of elected governments and a country's supreme court -   has ever been chosen through the universal suffrage of the electors of the sovereign states that make up the EU. Not one.

Ah, you may say, but we have the European Parliament. Well apart from the fact that it is riddled with greed, corruption and self-service (think parliamentary expenses scandal...that wasn't restricted to the UK Parliament); is politically a toothless talking shop (when MEPs actually turn up to do anything other than clock in to claim their lavish expenses) and that its members are elected under a ridiculous system which means that few of us can name our MEP or say what he or she actually does or has done, and which gave us such honest, public-spirited and selfless public servants as, er, the odious and notorious Nick Griffin...there are no prizes for guessing my opinion on that particular body.

Oh, and I speak from experience as I have actually attended  sittings of the EU Parliament, and my job entailed a number of visits to Brussels and Stasbourg where I was involved in meetings with MEPs, civil servants and even, on a couple of occasions, with Commissioners.

Sorry, Lord Ed, when I saud our elected represetatives took us into the EU, I was referring to their signing us up to the union with the Maastricht Treaty, which came much later.

I reiterate my own problems with the EUs power structure and corruption, as said to tommy. Anyone would be foolish to think it isn't far from faultless. But I remain convinced our economic interests are best served within the union AND that it is not beyond reform.

Regardless, I certainly would prefer the whole Brexit issue to be resolved one way or another asap.

Did the British people agree to Maastricht...!?

No... the British people didn't consent to this... so it has no real validity!!!

Thatcher was right...

Eilzel wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Hi Lez. You are not quite correct in saying that our representatives (b.t.w.it is sometimes misunderstood that MPs represent their constituencies but are not "delegates") took us into the EU, as the EU did not exist on January 1, 1973 when the UK, under Harold Wilson, joined along with Ireland and Denmark following the death of De Gaulle who had been implacably opposed to our membership.

What we actually joined was the European Economic Community, better known as the Common Market...a trading bloc that succeeded what had been a coal, iron and steel federation set up primarily by France and Germany. De Gaulle had twice turned down our application to join during the 1960s.

In 1975 British voters were asked in a referendum whether they wished to stay in that EEC and voted substantially in favour. But - and this is why many people, myself included, voted to leave in the 2013 referendum - at no point since were we given any opportunity to express our democratic right to decide whether we wished to be part of "an ever closer union" - for which read embryonic United States of Europe - governed by an unelected President and executive.

Not one of the people who actually control the European Union - and who decided unilaterally to pursue the policy of "ever closer union" together with powers over the virtual minutiae of our daily lives through a system of "diktats" that can supersede, and indeed, overturn the decisions of elected governments and a country's supreme court -   has ever been chosen through the universal suffrage of the electors of the sovereign states that make up the EU. Not one.

Ah, you may say, but we have the European Parliament. Well apart from the fact that it is riddled with greed, corruption and self-service (think parliamentary expenses scandal...that wasn't restricted to the UK Parliament); is politically a toothless talking shop (when MEPs actually turn up to do anything other than clock in to claim their lavish expenses) and that its members are elected under a ridiculous system which means that few of us can name our MEP or say what he or she actually does or has done, and which gave us such honest, public-spirited and selfless public servants as, er, the odious and notorious Nick Griffin...there are no prizes for guessing my opinion on that particular body.

Oh, and I speak from experience as I have actually attended  sittings of the EU Parliament, and my job entailed a number of visits to Brussels and Stasbourg where I was involved in meetings with MEPs, civil servants and even, on a couple of occasions, with Commissioners.

Sorry, Lord Ed, when I saud our elected represetatives took us into the EU, I was referring to their signing us up to the union with the Maastricht Treaty, which came much later.

I reiterate my own problems with the EUs power structure and corruption, as said to tommy. Anyone would be foolish to think it isn't far from faultless. But I remain convinced our economic interests are best served within the union AND that it is not beyond reform.

Regardless, I certainly would prefer the whole Brexit issue to be resolved one way or another asap.

And that, Lez, is a big part of the whole problem...there are increasingly fewer of us who have been around long enough and sufficiently involved or interested to recall how the EEC trading bloc has advanced by stealth to become largely a political federation with delusions of grandeur that would place it alongside the USA and Russia, with the all the military implications that would involve.

Don't forget that the "ever closer union" has so far augmented trading considerations with foreign diplomacy and military policy (the "High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy already exists - unelected, naturally!) and the EU Commission is known to yearn for a European Army.

None of this has ever been put before the European people - because the Commission will brook no interference or even public participation in its decision-making.

Like you, I want to see this matter resolved as quickly as possible. It is damaging to our trade, economy and living standards and the "negotiations" thus far have been an utter mess, with the fractious Tory Party resorting to its traditional internecine warfare, the Opposition leadership under the control of a dangerous hard-Left faction that seems intent on taking power by default and regardless of the consequences (probably civil unrest or worse) and an EU Commission that is determined to punish the UK pour encourager les autres because it knows damn well that similar opposition to its dictatorial and authoritarian form of governance is growing in a number of other countries, mainly among the newer Eastern European members but also the union's originators.

Surely it is not too much to expect that we can continue with mutually beneficial trade and commerce without giving up control over the security of our own borders, and that laws enacted by our own democratically-elected government and ultimately determined by our own established judicial system should not be subjected to annulment by foreign judges?

+1.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Hi Lez. You are not quite correct in saying that our representatives (b.t.w.it is sometimes misunderstood that MPs represent their constituencies but are not "delegates") took us into the EU, as the EU did not exist on January 1, 1973 when the UK, under Harold Wilson, joined along with Ireland and Denmark following the death of De Gaulle who had been implacably opposed to our membership.

What we actually joined was the European Economic Community, better known as the Common Market...a trading bloc that succeeded what had been a coal, iron and steel federation set up primarily by France and Germany. De Gaulle had twice turned down our application to join during the 1960s.

In 1975 British voters were asked in a referendum whether they wished to stay in that EEC and voted substantially in favour. But - and this is why many people, myself included, voted to leave in the 2013 referendum - at no point since were we given any opportunity to express our democratic right to decide whether we wished to be part of "an ever closer union" - for which read embryonic United States of Europe - governed by an unelected President and executive.

Not one of the people who actually control the European Union - and who decided unilaterally to pursue the policy of "ever closer union" together with powers over the virtual minutiae of our daily lives through a system of "diktats" that can supersede, and indeed, overturn the decisions of elected governments and a country's supreme court -   has ever been chosen through the universal suffrage of the electors of the sovereign states that make up the EU. Not one.

Ah, you may say, but we have the European Parliament. Well apart from the fact that it is riddled with greed, corruption and self-service (think parliamentary expenses scandal...that wasn't restricted to the UK Parliament); is politically a toothless talking shop (when MEPs actually turn up to do anything other than clock in to claim their lavish expenses) and that its members are elected under a ridiculous system which means that few of us can name our MEP or say what he or she actually does or has done, and which gave us such honest, public-spirited and selfless public servants as, er, the odious and notorious Nick Griffin...there are no prizes for guessing my opinion on that particular body.

Oh, and I speak from experience as I have actually attended  sittings of the EU Parliament, and my job entailed a number of visits to Brussels and Stasbourg where I was involved in meetings with MEPs, civil servants and even, on a couple of occasions, with Commissioners.

Sorry, Lord Ed, when I saud our elected represetatives took us into the EU, I was referring to their signing us up to the union with the Maastricht Treaty, which came much later.

I reiterate my own problems with the EUs power structure and corruption, as said to tommy. Anyone would be foolish to think it isn't far from faultless. But I remain convinced our economic interests are best served within the union AND that it is not beyond reform.

Regardless, I certainly would prefer the whole Brexit issue to be resolved one way or another asap.

And that, Lez, is a big part of the whole problem...there are increasingly fewer of us who have been around long enough and sufficiently involved or interested to recall how the EEC trading bloc has advanced by stealth to become largely a political federation with delusions of grandeur that would place it alongside the USA and Russia, with the all the military implications that would involve.

Don't forget that the "ever closer union" has so far augmented trading considerations with foreign diplomacy and military policy (the "High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy already exists - unelected, naturally!) and  the EU Commission is known to yearn for a European Army.

None of this has ever been put before the European people - because the Commission will brook no interference or even public participation in its decision-making.

Like you, I want to see this matter resolved as quickly as possible. It is damaging to our trade, economy and living standards and the "negotiations" thus far have been an utter mess, with the fractious Tory Party resorting to its traditional internecine warfare, the Opposition leadership under the control of a dangerous hard-Left faction that seems intent on taking power by default and regardless of the consequences (probably civil unrest or worse) and an EU Commission that is determined to punish the UK pour encourager les autres because it knows damn well that similar opposition to its dictatorial and authoritarian form of governance is growing in a number of other countries, mainly among the newer Eastern European members but also the union's originators.

Surely it is not too much to expect that we can continue with mutually beneficial trade and commerce without giving up control over the security of our own borders, and that laws enacted by our own democratically-elected government and ultimately determined by our own established judicial system should not be subjected to annulment by foreign judges?

Since most of our own rules comply with, or go further than, EU rulings anyway, I don't see how or why people get upset over EU making laws anyway. Again, I think we just have too different of a view on the role the UK has or could have, especially in a reformed EU.

That said, we are probably leaving. And through May's stubborn perseverence we are probably leaving with a deal.

I completely agree with your analysis of the two main parties btw. Only, my fear with Labour isn't their leftism (indeed, I rather like that aspect), but their immense stupidity and opportunistic recklessness.

Diane Abbott can never be Home Secretary.
Corbyn hasn't shown a single sign of having any coherent plan for Brexit.

I want this Labour leadership to fail, despite my early hopes, and get someone better on the front benches (Yvette Cooper, perhaps).

Les... wtf are you talking about...!?


Our rules ARE the rules dictated to us by the EU!!!


And if you think that the EU can be 'reformed' in any way by us remaining in the EU... then you are completely deluded... and you have more chance of riding a unicorn over a rainbow!!!


And Yvette Cooper is one of the most treacherous and anti democratic politicians in the history of parliament!!!


70% of Labour MPs represent constituencies who voted to leave the EU...


But Yvette Cooper is trying every trick in the book to prevent the democratic will of the British people being enacted!!!


You can't get much more treacherous than that!!!


Who the fuck does she think she is... that she thinks she is more important than 17.4 million people and thinks she has the right to stand in the way of democracy...!!!???


Yvette Cooper is a prime example of everything that is wrong in UK politics today!!!


It is us who tell them what to do... not the other way round!!!


And I really hope the twat gets removed from parliament in the next election!!!


As she is clearly not a servant of the people... but thinks she is a ruler of the people, and thinks she is a dictator who is above democracy...!!!

Furthermore.. just to show how much of a traitor she is...


She is MP for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford...


And the numbers who voted to Leave the EU there was 70.0%...!!!


So 70% of her own constituency voted to leave the EU... but she thinks she has a right as MP representing these people, to try every trick in the book, to stop the UK leaving the EU...!!!???


She is a fucking traitor to democracy and a traitor to her position as an MP!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Les... wtf are you talking about...!?


Our rules ARE the rules dictated to us by the EU!!!


And if you think that the EU can be 'reformed' in any way by us remaining in the EU... then you are completely deluded... and you have more chance of riding a unicorn over a rainbow!!!


And Yvette Cooper is one of the most treacherous and anti democratic politicians in the history of parliament!!!


70% of Labour MPs represent constituencies who voted to leave the EU...


But Yvette Cooper is trying every trick in the book to prevent the democratic will of the British people being enacted!!!


You can't get much more treacherous than that!!!


Who the fuck does she think she is... that she thinks she is more important than 17.4 million people and thinks she has the right to stand in the way of democracy...!!!???


Yvette Cooper is a prime example of everything that is wrong in UK politics today!!!


It is us who tell them what to do... not the other way round!!!


And I really hope the twat gets removed from parliament in the next election!!!


As she is clearly not a servant of the people... but thinks she is a ruler of the people, and thinks she is a dictator who is above democracy...!!!

If democracy is to be us telling government what to do, why not just scrap politics altogether and have majority/mob rule?

You know why that wouldn't work as well as I do.

And for the record, I trust Cooper knows what's best for the country over the 52% who voted Leave. As Socrates said, you wouldn't let the people decide who steers a ship through a storm, you'd give the job to the most qualified

And who decides who's the most qualified ? The people do by voting, and that's what they have done !

nicko wrote:And who decides who's the most qualified ?    The people do by voting, and that's what they have done !

Exactly! We voted and most of those WE chose to represent our best interests have made it clear No Deal is not a good option

given that the EU is run entirely by an unaccountable and unelected "commission", and that the european parliament is a cosmetic joke with no power, there is no hope of "reform" in the EU whatsoever......

Las... the British people have made the decision!


It is up to MP s to now follow the orders of the result of the referendum!


And Yvette Cooper especially because 70% of her own constituency voted leave!!!

I wonder how many Honda workers voted to Brexit ,  after being told their jobs were at risk?

http://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

I wonder how many of them depended on sales of diesel motors which the eu and this gov are now trying to tax out of existence.

Andy wrote:I wonder how many Honda workers voted to Brexit ,  after being told their jobs were at risk?

http://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

just another snippet
https://europe.autonews.com/article/20171208/ANE/171209797/eu-will-scrap-tariffs-on-japan-built-cars-in-trade-deal

so it is japan looking after japanese workers and then exporting the cars into the EU with no tariffs

Japan just signed a free trade agreement with the EU.
We will have no deal with the EU of Japan.
Quitting is entirely down to us leaving .

Andy wrote:Japan just signed a free trade agreement with the EU.
We will have no deal with the EU of Japan.
Quitting is entirely down to us leaving .

not according to honda

https://www.evo.co.uk/honda/civic/12913/honda-announces-uk-job-losses
entirely down to the eu removing tariffs and a slowdown in sales. Japan puts japanese workers first.
When we leave we dont have to put tariffs on japanese cars if we dont want to either.

want to try FlyBMI next?

Honda are also shutting their plant in Turkey...


All because there will no longer be tariffs on cars built in Japan... so it is now cheaper for them (and better for japanese workers), to produce the cars in Japan and then ship them over as imports tariff free...!


Maybe all this "free trade" isn't such a great idea...?


Maybe we need to keep some tariffs in place so that we can ensure that products sold here to British people are actually made here with jobs for British people...?

Oh bugger
https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17441297.honda-reaction-factory-in-turkey-will-also-close-mps-say/

from the horses arse sorry mouth
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1955

Looks like run away Andy has... er... run away again...!


Oh dear...!

Tommy Monk wrote:Honda are also shutting their plant in Turkey...


All because there will no longer be tariffs on cars built in Japan... so it is now cheaper for them (and better for japanese workers), to produce the cars in Japan and then ship them over as imports tariff free...!


Maybe all this "free trade" isn't such a great idea...?


Maybe we need to keep some tariffs in place so that we can ensure that products sold here to British people are actually made here with jobs for British people...?

Anyone got any thoughts on whether it is in our national interest to be able to set our own tariffs on imports or not...?



Also... what is the thinking behind this EU/Japan "trade deal" anyway... that it was ever going to be beneficial to the UK...?


Cos... basically... Japan has agreed to do away with their imposition of tariffs on food/wine etc... in return on us putting zero tariffs on Japanese car imports...


Problem being... most of the stuff that we sell to them... is stuff that we already sell to them... it is stuff that is always ever going to be produced here (eg English cheddar, Scottish whisky etc)... and stuff that they are already happy to buy in large quantities from us, regardless of the import tariffs that the Japanese govt imposed on these goods...


Therefore... any reduction in the tariffs imposed on these goods by the Japanese govt, would not necessarily be of any significant benefit to any of the UK producers or to the UK economy or to the UK govt... as the trade of these goods already exists from here to there... the demand is already being supplied... and at what is arguably going to be at much the same levels seen happening during the both the "tariff applied" and the subsequent "tariff free" periods...!


Meaning... in simple terms... the stuff we make, is stuff we will always make, and stuff that we already sell to them... isn't really any difference to us whether the Japanese impose a small % tariff on this stuff or not... it is only really making these products a tiny bit cheaper for the Japanese customers who are actually buying the stuff in the shops...


However... the "Japanese" Honda/Nissan cars that we buy over here in UK... are largely made here in the UK already... built by UK workers... who are all being paid in £ sterling... and all paying UK taxes... contributing to the UK economy etc...


And it is only the tariff imposed on foreign imports of cars that means that these cars ARE actually manufactured here in UK by British workers etc...!!!


If these cars were already being built in Japan, and we were already buying them with the added cost of the import tariff etc... and we were to do away with this import tariff... then this wouldn't really make much difference to the overall numbers of these 'made in Japan' cars being sold here... all it would do would be to make it just a little bit cheaper for the actual UK customers to buy their preferred choice of Japanese make of car...


But what it looks like is happening... is that this reduction of import tariff on Japanese cars... actually means it is now more cost effective for the Japanese companies to close production of their cars here in UK... and instead to manufacture them back in Japan... and then ship them over as imports that are tariff free!


So... doing away with tariffs on food/drinks is only making things a bit cheaper for the Japanese customers and no benefit to the UK...


And... doing away with tariffs on cars is resulting in many 1000's of UK manufacturing jobs being lost here in UK as production is moved to Japan... which is only beneficial to the Japanese workers and their economy, while detrimental to the UK worker and economy...!



Can anyone explain any upside for the UK in any of this...!?


If not... then isn't this just another prime example of why we need to leave the EU...!!!???

Two weeks ago, France became the first country in Europe to ban a whole particular family/group of pesticides/insecticides; (actually legislated last August -- but these things take time..).

Fuck the EU, fuck Monsanto/Bayer, Ciba-Geigy et al, fuck any 'trade agreements'..

France decided to look after their own welfare, and acted unilaterally.

Andy wrote:Japan just signed a free trade agreement with the EU.
We will have no deal with the EU of Japan.
Quitting is entirely down to us leaving .

why aren't they relocating to europe?

Ask them.
Cheaper to simply manufacture in Japan then export to the EU tariff free rather than relocating to the EU And still have tariffs to the UK.

Andy wrote:Ask them.
Cheaper to simply manufacture in Japan then export to the EU tariff free rather than relocating to the EU And still have tariffs to the UK.

so nothing to do with brexit and all to do with the EU who have thrown us under the bus like they will ireland when we leave

Tariffs are stupid. What you get is what we had under W. in the U.S., where steel tariffs saved the jobs of about 10,000 steel workers but cost the jobs of something like 50,000 auto workers.

Any government intervention that raises the cost of goods should stem from regulations to protect workers, consumers and the environment - not from a pissing contest between national economies.

Tariffs we will get.
Even Pascal Lamy, former head of the WTO thinks Britain will get shafted and will pay a heavy price for a no deal.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1090923/Brexit-news-Pascal-Lamy-WTO-UK-EU-withdrawal-no-deal-trade-May-Juncker-latest

Andy wrote:Tariffs we will get.
Even Pascal Lamy, former head of the WTO thinks Britain will get shafted and will pay a heavy price for a no deal.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1090923/Brexit-news-Pascal-Lamy-WTO-UK-EU-withdrawal-no-deal-trade-May-Juncker-latest

is that the same pascal lamy who was an eu commissioner for trade and is an advisor for the think tank european horizons, He was nominated for the WTO role by the EU, do you think he might have a bit of a conflict of interest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_Lamy

He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

I'm not suggesting he doesn't, I am suggesting he is not independent his whole career seems to have been dependent on the EU, no wonder he is pushing project fear

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Tariffs are stupid. What you get is what we had under W. in the U.S., where steel tariffs saved the jobs of about 10,000 steel workers but cost  the jobs of something like 50,000 auto workers.

Any government intervention that raises the cost of goods should stem from regulations to protect workers, consumers and the environment - not from a pissing contest between national economies.

A small tariff on imported cars may well be the difference between securing the long term manufacture and jobs being here in UK... rather than seeing the jobs and manufacture going overseas where it is a bit cheaper for the company and resulting in bigger profits...



I'm surprised that you are arguing in favour of the ease of business to maximise profits while shifting production overseas and starting the UK work force...!

Tommy Monk wrote:

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Tariffs are stupid. What you get is what we had under W. in the U.S., where steel tariffs saved the jobs of about 10,000 steel workers but cost  the jobs of something like 50,000 auto workers.

Any government intervention that raises the cost of goods should stem from regulations to protect workers, consumers and the environment - not from a pissing contest between national economies.

A small tariff on imported cars may well be the difference between securing the long term manufacture and jobs being here in UK... rather than seeing the jobs and manufacture going overseas where it is a bit cheaper for the company and resulting in bigger profits...



I'm surprised that you are arguing in favour of the ease of business to maximise profits while shifting production overseas and starting the UK work force...!

Multinational corporations are always going to chase profits and seek a workforce that can be exploited.

The solution is workers' rights around the globe, not policies that chase them from one corner of the globe to another, because they've already proven they're fine with that. China keeps improving workers' rights and pretty soon everything will be made in Kenya.

At a certain point we're going to have to start treating people as more important than profits if the world is to improve. That will mean starving the money-hungry corporate leaders at the expense of the workforce of every nation.

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Apparently Brexiteers know more about economics than most economists, business people and politicians - it's amazing how much more they know than experts about everything in fact

Eilzel wrote:

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Apparently Brexiteers know more about economics than most economists, business people and politicians - it's amazing how much more they know than experts about everything in fact

You could say the same about the people opposing Brexit.
The truth is we don’t know what or who is wrong or right. Perhaps, like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

eddie wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Apparently Brexiteers know more about economics than most economists, business people and politicians - it's amazing how much more they know than experts about everything in fact

You could say the same about the people opposing Brexit.
The truth is we don’t  know what or who is wrong or right. Perhaps, like most things,  the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Most of the public opposition to Brexit is made of economists, business people, doctors, scientists, politicians etc...

The pro Brexit side is a minority of politicians and most journalists.

Who would you trust more on matters of business and economics?

What you're saying is if you badly needed surgery and a doctor and a journalist had differing views on how to perform that surgery - you'd give equal weight to both sides, perhaps let them discuss the best action to take

I, personally, would let the doctor do his job

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


A small tariff on imported cars may well be the difference between securing the long term manufacture and jobs being here in UK... rather than seeing the jobs and manufacture going overseas where it is a bit cheaper for the company and resulting in bigger profits...



I'm surprised that you are arguing in favour of the ease of business to maximise profits while shifting production overseas and starting the UK work force...!

Multinational corporations are always going to chase profits and seek a workforce that can be exploited.

The solution is workers' rights around the globe, not policies that chase them from one corner of the globe to another, because they've already proven they're fine with that. China keeps improving workers' rights and pretty soon everything will be made in Kenya.

At a certain point we're going to have to start treating people as more important than profits if the world is to improve. That will mean starving the money-hungry corporate leaders at the expense of the workforce of every nation.

Raising corporation tax and increasing regulations chases them away...


However... lowering the small % import tariff on cars looks to have resulted in a shift of manufacture of these cars from the UK to  Japan... resulting in thousands of UK job losses... and at the benefit of increased profit for the companies...


So nothing to do with chasing any away... but instead it is encouraging them to move away to a more profitable location... and to shit on the UK workforce!!!


Come on Ben... why are you arguing in favour of corporations maximising profits over the local work force losing all their jobs...!?

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


A small tariff on imported cars may well be the difference between securing the long term manufacture and jobs being here in UK... rather than seeing the jobs and manufacture going overseas where it is a bit cheaper for the company and resulting in bigger profits...



I'm surprised that you are arguing in favour of the ease of business to maximise profits while shifting production overseas and starting the UK work force...!

Multinational corporations are always going to chase profits and seek a workforce that can be exploited.

The solution is workers' rights around the globe, not policies that chase them from one corner of the globe to another, because they've already proven they're fine with that. China keeps improving workers' rights and pretty soon everything will be made in Kenya.

At a certain point we're going to have to start treating people as more important than profits if the world is to improve. That will mean starving the money-hungry corporate leaders at the expense of the workforce of every nation.

Once upon a time, Britain's factories and industry was thriving. Then it all went abroad. Bigger profits. Cheaper production. So, I'm not sure why all the fuss now when companies like Honda close their factories and move on. It's what's always happened. These companies don't care about people. They go where financial expediency dictates. The industry changes. Honda have admitted that Brexit has nothing to do with the move out of Britain.

Eilzel wrote:

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Apparently Brexiteers know more about economics than most economists, business people and politicians - it's amazing how much more they know than experts about everything in fact

The experts said we should join the ERM... which was a disaster for us... they also said we should join the euro... and thank fuk we didn't do that either!!!



If you have 2 economists and ask them a question... you will get at least 3 different answers...!


Give me a 1 armed economist... cos normally they say that "on one hand" something would happen... and "on the other hand" something else would happen...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Andy wrote:He knows more than you do about tariffs, trade and the WTO.
I think I would rather believe him than you.

Apparently Brexiteers know more about economics than most economists, business people and politicians - it's amazing how much more they know than experts about everything in fact

The experts said we should join the ERM... which was a disaster for us... they also said we should join the euro... and thank fuk we didn't do that either!!!



If you have 2 economists and ask them a question... you will get at least 3 different answers...!


Give me a 1 armed economist... cos normally they say that "on one hand" something would happen... and "on the other hand" something else would happen...

It's not just economists who say we shouldn't leave the EU. It's most business people, doctors, scientists and politicians too - what do your lot know that they don't?

If you were riding a ship through a storm would you argue over who is best to captain the ship or just give the role to the Captain?

Most business people...!!!???


There are 5.5 million businesses here in the UK...


95% of these don't do any trade whatsoever with the EU...!!!


So... please explain your claim that "most business people" are opposed to us leaving the EU...!!!???


And "scientists and doctors" too...!!!???


WTF are you talking about!!!???


Maybe you know about some meteorologists who say that the sky will fall in too... eh...!!!???


Or some volcanologists who say there will be a mass spontaneous worldwide eruption of cataclysmic proportions too, if we leave the EU...!!!???


The moon will disappear...!?


Oceans will boil...!?





STOP TALKING BOLLOCKS LES!!!

Doctors:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/13/brexit-doctors-and-nurses-nhs-will-get-worse

Scientists:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/how-will-brexit-will-affect-scientific-research/

Business leaders:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-final-say-referendum-business-leaders-peoples-vote-a8616501.html

Of course many small and medium business do not operate outside the UK, but those that do they have nothing good to say.

But tommy knows better, eh.