Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

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Palestinians as a diverse society are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation.

In much of the North American and western European media reporting on the current Israeli carnage of Palestinians, a common refrain is that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards Israel. Given the sophisticated defence system Israel possesses, courtesy of US taxpayers, none of these rockets hit any targets and fortunately no Israeli man, woman, or child has lost any life or limb because of them. This fact has scarcely bothered BBC, CNN, or any other shamelessly pro-Israeli outlet that always seeks to "balance" their reporting on Gaza by mentioning the fact that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards the Jewish state.

In one particularly nefarious example, Diane Sawyer of ABC showed a picture of Palestinians enduring Israeli bombing but told her American audience these were the pictures of Israelis under attack by Hamas rockets.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that Hamas does shoot some rockets towards Israel, and though these rockets scarcely harm anyone does not diminish their intent, which is to hit somewhere or harm someone. So the Hamas operation intends to harm people but they cannot do as they wish for their military wherewithal is not outsourced to the United States.

Thanks to AIPAC and other Israeli lobbies and pro-Israeli billionaires, among them those who encourage US President Barack Obama to nuke Iran on behalf of Israel, Israel enjoys a special relationship with the most deadly military machinery on the planet and partakes in that deadly force at will. Hamas in this regard has lost the bid to its Israeli counterparts and any outside military help they might receive is from countries like Iran that can hardly be compared to that gargantuan deadly machine called the US.

Erratic rockets

Useless as they are, why is Hamas firing these erratic rockets, and why would they not stop them anyway? Why bother? They are hardly any match for the Israeli army. After all, Hamas is David and Israel is Goliath in this contest. Wouldn't Palestinians be better off without Hamas trying to defend them in Gaza?

Here we need to ask the question in a slightly larger context. Is Hamas not a legitimate Palestinian organisation, with enough grassroots support that it won a major parliamentary election in Gaza back in 2006? I have known, and I still know, many Palestinians who do not like Hamas, disagree with their ideology, and oppose their ways. But these Palestinians of diverse political opinions are as much part of the Palestinian resistance to occupation and theft of their homeland as Hamas is.

Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies.

By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience. Resistance for Palestinians is definitive of who and what they are. They might be a poet like Mahmoud Darwish, a novelist like Ghassan Kanafani, a film-maker like Michel Khleifi, an artist like Mona Hatoum, a feminist like Lila Abu Lughod - but in doing what they do, whatever they do, they oppose and defy the armed robbery of their homeland.

But there are also those Palestinians who have taken arms and opposed villainy by violence. As part of this resistance, Hamas is integral to the Palestinian national liberation movement, but like any other forms of resistance, Hamas is not definitive to Palestine.

Israeli propaganda machinery

What the Israeli propaganda machinery does is to reduce the entirety of Palestine, the rich and diversified tapestry of Palestinian resistance, to Hamas, then demonise Hamas. The strategy works, especially aided and abetted by major state-sponsored or corporate media like BBC, ABC, or CNN. Execute this strategy, and go on a rampage against Palestinians, maim and murder them with impunity.

Now for the sake of argument: Suppose we wake up tomorrow morning and there is no Hamas to shoot off any useless rockets towards Israel. Then what? The magnificent Israeli benevolence will move into operation and return the stolen Palestine to their rightful owners? Of course not. Suppose Hamas did not even exist since its founding in 1987. Then what? Israel would have by now returned Palestine to its rightful owners? Of course not.

Palestinians are varied and Palestinians are entirely entitled to resist and oppose the occupation and theft of their homeland by any means they deem necessary - whether it is by a beautiful song by Muhammad Assaf, a magnificent poem by Mahmoud Darwish, a film by Elia Suleiman, a novel by Ghassan Kanafani, a book on Palestinian costumes by Widad Kawar, or another on Palestinian cuisine by Rawia Bishara or by the militant Marxist organisation PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine), or indeed through the Islamist ideology of Hamas.

One may not agree with Hamas, may not join them, but one cannot reduce the entire tapestry of Palestinian resistance to Hamas, or tell Hamas to disband, for Israelis are about to return Palestine to its rightful owners.

So the bogus proposition that Hamas provokes Israel to attack Gaza is not only narratively false because Israeli military operations in Palestine always predate any Hamas operation, but also because Palestinians in their entirety are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation in whatever form they deem necessary. Dividing these forms of resistance into "moderate" and "militant" will also lead nowhere but the pestiferous Washington think tanks.

A film by Annemarie Jacir, an art installation by Emily Jacir, a poem by Rafeef Ziadah or Dana Dajani, or a moving song by Rim Banna is infinitely more radical than any flimsy rocket that Hamas might fire. The Israeli propaganda machinery does not want the world to know these radically defiant forms of Palestinian resistance that have grabbed Zionism by the throat for generations and do not allow it to swallow Palestine. But they magnify Hamas as the face of Palestine.

Military atrocities

In a future free and democratic Palestine, who knows how many votes Hamas would garner in a given election. But we are nowhere near that moment yet - and Israel and its criminal military atrocities are the principle obstacle why we are nowhere near that point. Until then, Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist the robbery of their homeland by any means they deem necessary, including, but never limited to, Hamas.

Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea.

Zionism as a murderous machinery of colonial conquest will not stop until the very last inch of Palestine is taken - and yet the Palestinians persist in their homeland, resist occupation, procreate, sing, dance, compose music and poetry, make films, stage drama, organise acts of civil disobedience, mobilise for BDS ... and yes, of course, some of them also pick up a few flimsy arms against the most sophisticated armed robbery of a homeland in history.

Hamid Dabashi is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/hamas-provoke-israel-attack-201471512246535512.html

That sums it up exactly.

If Hammas disappeared tomorrow Israel would not stop until it had all of Palestine.

Sassy wrote:So, no answers to the very detailed reasons for the conflict and why Israel are committing war crimes, just diversion and avoidance of the posts you can't answer.   This is not about you trying to look clever Quill, which you clearly don't, this is about children being massacred, genocide being committed against a people and war crimes being carried out by Israel, especially, as you have obviously read on the other thread, with the weapons they are using in a action that is supposedly to take out rockets, but are only useful in inflicting dreadful wounds on civilians.

For once in your life, stop making it about you and make it about the people who are suffering, read, learn, inwardly digest and acknowledge the crimes that are being committed instead of finding excuses for them.

And PS, Victor, and many, many others, including many Jews, are saying that the Israeli Government are the Nazi's now.

Which shows how people are clueless on history, so to equate this , you must feel the British are Nazis, for their bombing campaigns, or the Americans also with bombing campaigns in conflicts like with drone attacks in Pakistan? This is why you are vile, to equate as some do to the Nazi's shows how little you know about the Holocaust or what the Nazi's even did, not a war where  sadly civilians die as is happenning here. Nazi's  rounded up people and systematically executed them, killed them in death camps etc, to equate the same to a conflict shows how utterly you and others are out of touch with reality.

Sassy wrote:So, no answers to the very detailed reasons for the conflict and why Israel are committing war crimes, just diversion and avoidance of the posts you can't answer.   This is not about you trying to look clever Quill, which you clearly don't, this is about children being massacred, genocide being committed against a people and war crimes being carried out by Israel, especially, as you have obviously read on the other thread, with the weapons they are using in a action that is supposedly to take out rockets, but are only useful in inflictl dreadful wounds on civilians.

For once in your life, stop making it about you and make it about the people who are suffering, read, learn, inwardly digest and acknowledge the crimes that are being committed instead of finding excuses for them.

It's not about me at all, sass. Look at the title of the thread.

Your posts add nothing to the discussion. Hamas/Gaza are trying to stir the heat, putting women and children at risk in order to place maimed and dying humans before the international press. Hamas is the hand of Iran, so that Iran starts the war without putting a single Iranian in harms way.

The hope is that the world sees only the maimed and dying people. It's a typical elitist ploy, relying on the supposed stupidity of the world public not to see the two sides. Unfortunately, it's the Iranian stupidity that is on display. Just because the Iranians are stupid, does not mean that the world is stupid. That is why there is so much world support for a ground invasion of Gaza by Israel.

Yea, yea, yea, same old, Didge is the only one who knows, even the people that were there are brushed aside and count for nothing in his views. There are many Jews like that lady, who's mother perished in Belsen who despise was Israel is doing and fight against it.

Oh really Quill, it is your posts that add nothing to the discussion because they show the most unimaginable ignorance.   I'll try again, maybe for once you will understand something:

Really, such ignorance is intolerable in someone who has access to the facts but refuses to read, look or understand.

This will continue until the root causes are resolved. Israel refuses to accept international legality as a base for resolving the situation with Palestine and Gaza in particular, and it's right wing government is very happy to use military force at the drop of a hat.

The rockets were firing before the so called abduction of the teenagers, and whoever did it, and that is disputed, invading a country is not a proportional response.

Israel talk about their incursions into Gaza and the death inflincted as 'mowing the lawn'. The death toll shows the the asymmetry of power, with the fourth strongest army in the world on one side, funded by America, and a virtually defenceless civilian population on the other, with Hamas having home made rockets that Israel know, because of the defences America help them set up, will never hit anything of value.

By launching the ground offensive on the pretext of the kidnappings, even though a Palestinian boy was burnt to death, Israel has burnt more houses, hospitals and water plants, displaced probably 50,000 people from their homes and turned the enclave that is Gaza into a living hell.

Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

But through it all, the reason for it is Israeli colonialism.

Yes, in 2005 Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, but under International Law it is still the occupying power. Why? Because it controls access to Gaze by land and air and sea. When Israel left it did not leave freedom, it left Gaza as an open air prison and a it's population able to be punched whenever Israel felt like it.

Hamas won a fair election in 2006, but the western allies of Israel, and Israel itself refused to recognise them, yet Gaza was supposed to be free to rule itself, so they decided on an economic way to overthrow it. In 2007 the blockade ensued, they cut Gaza off from the West Bank and the rest of the world and left the people inside it to indescribable suffering.

Proscribed under internation law, a blockade is collective punishment, so since 2007 the Gazans have been under an unrelenting, illegal seige.

The handling of the situation at the moment is normal for Netanyahu, brutal military force to keep the Gazans under control and keep them remote from the West Bank. He was opposed to the withdrawal in 2005 and he continues to reject a two state solution.

During the Kerry peace talks Netanyahu kept expanding the settlement and didn't have a constructive proposal to put. Kerry even drew up a security plan under which Israel would be able to leave the West Bank. Netanyahu dismissed it as not worth the paper.

In April, Hamas and Fatah reached an Accord, which infuriated Netanyahu, who said it was a 'Terror Pact', how dare the two areas of Palestine get together and work together. The Unity Government Accord was very moderate in it's policies and people. Mainly made of Fatah and without one member of Hamas. To try and work towards stopping the isolation, Hamas had virtually handed over power to Fatah, Fatah being remarkably pro-Western. The Unity Government accepted the conditions of the US and the EU for receiving aid, recognition of Israel, respecting past agreements and renunciation of violence.

Israel's response? Economic warfare. It stopped the government paid officials in Gaza from moving the Gaza government payroll to the Unity Government in Ramallan and it made the seige around the Gazan borders even tighter. The Unity Government thus could not happen. Israel didn't want it, they did not want a Unity Government, even if it did not have a member of Hamas in it. So they made sure they destroyed it. By doing so, they left Hamas with no choice, so after all that hard work, peace was not possible and Israel carried on talking about Hamas as a terrorist organisation and inflicted further horrors on the Gazans.

Everyone can see that a ceasefire is needed, especially the people of Gaza, but the one put up by Egypt met what Israel wanted, but didn't contain one thing for Gaza. And they didn't even bother to consult Hamas. Hamas found out through the media, there were no discussions, no seeing what was needed by both sides, it was simply Sisi allowing Netanyahu to look good. Hamas requires an end of Israeli aggression, the easing of the blockade and the return of the prisoners Israel took after the murder of the three boys. It will not accept less, and why should it?

The international community rose up against Putin over the shooting down of the Malaysian plane, because it was mostly western people who were the victims. They need to do the same to Israel and insist that it abides by the 63 UN resolutions against it, ends the occupation, give back the land it has stolen and allow the Palestinians to live in their own country in freedom or stop handing over the funding that keeps Israel strong, and have a world embargo on it products.

Sassy wrote:Yea, yea, yea, same old, Didge is the only one who knows, even the people that were there are brushed aside and count for nothing in his views.   There are many Jews like that lady, who's mother perished in Belsen who despise was Israel is doing and fight against it.

There are many more who despise Hamas attacking Israel, so that proves nothing and is a poor argument tactic, as seen it can be countered by others, when will you learn to grow up, with again your hate for Israel does not match anything similar to far worse nations where innocent people are dying, that is why I am concerned, as to me they are all wrong, but you constantly single out the Jews an with utter absurd claims to Nazism, concentration camps, all absurd views with no such comparrison

I see Sassy is using others to argue for her again, and cannot counter Quill herself, and fails to see that it is fine to use something as a link to back your views but utterly poor to use it as your counter.

It shows Quill clearly has the better understanding, as you Sassy need others to argue for you

Sassy wrote:Yea, yea, yea, same old, Didge is the only one who knows, even the people that were there are brushed aside and count for nothing in his views.   There are many Jews like that lady, who's mother perished in Belsen who despise was Israel is doing and fight against it.

"That lady" knows which side of her bread is buttered.  The jackboots here are the ones who have their hands on the missile buttons.  How ironic are the events in Ukraine right now.  Is it God demonstrating the nefarious power of missiles, so we might visualize what Hamas/Gaza is doing?

I'll leave you to your mental wanderings. Jews despise Israel, Palestinians voted for Hamas, and the people that call Hamas terrorists are the people who are now committing war crimes and collective punishment. I don't think who they think are terrorists counts.

Didge wrote:I see Sassy is using others to argue for her again, and cannot counter Quill herself, and fails to see that it is fine to use something as a link to back your views but utterly poor to use it as your counter.

It shows Quill clearly has the better understanding, as you Sassy need others to argue for you

That post was mine, that I also posted in Guardian comments, and it not only shows Quill up, it wipes the floor with him.

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:Yea, yea, yea, same old, Didge is the only one who knows, even the people that were there are brushed aside and count for nothing in his views.   There are many Jews like that lady, who's mother perished in Belsen who despise was Israel is doing and fight against it.

"That lady" knows which side of her bread is buttered.  The jackboots here are the ones who have their hands on the missile buttons.  How ironic are the events in Ukraine right now.  Is it God demonstrating the nefarious power of missiles, so we might visualize what Hamas/Gaza is doing?

Still can't counter my very detailed post, do you want me to post it again, just in case you can get your brain round it?

Sassy wrote:I'll leave you to your mental wanderings.   Jews despise Israel, Palestinians voted for Hamas, and the people that call Hamas terrorists are the people who are now committing war crimes and collective punishment.   I don't think who they think are terrorists counts.

Hamas has failed to hold an election since 2006, there time in office is well overdue another election, so to claim they are voted in when they have denied people the vote is sheer balderdash.
I have already stated that terminology wise and by definition of international law Israel has committed some war crimes of which I have already condemned, yet you fail to condemn anything that Hamas does and see them as freedom fights, even though they commit human rights abuses against their own people, they were found to have 20 rockets in a school. that is using children as shields, and you are okay with that?

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:I see Sassy is using others to argue for her again, and cannot counter Quill herself, and fails to see that it is fine to use something as a link to back your views but utterly poor to use it as your counter.

It shows Quill clearly has the better understanding, as you Sassy need others to argue for you

That post was mine, that I also posted in Guardian comments, and it not only shows Quill up, it wipes the floor with him.

Is it so important to "show Quill up" that you lose sight of your point? Let me ask again: Why do Hamas/Gaza want this war?

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:I see Sassy is using others to argue for her again, and cannot counter Quill herself, and fails to see that it is fine to use something as a link to back your views but utterly poor to use it as your counter.

It shows Quill clearly has the better understanding, as you Sassy need others to argue for you

That post was mine, that I also posted in Guardian comments, and it not only shows Quill up, it wipes the floor with him.

So you failed to highlight which was yours and which was the Guardian, thus plagiarizing

WE'LL TRY AGAIN

Oh really Quill, it is your posts that add nothing to the discussion because they show the most unimaginable ignorance. I'll try again, maybe for once you will understand something:

Really, such ignorance is intolerable in someone who has access to the facts but refuses to read, look or understand.

This will continue until the root causes are resolved. Israel refuses to accept international legality as a base for resolving the situation with Palestine and Gaza in particular, and it's right wing government is very happy to use military force at the drop of a hat.

The rockets were firing before the so called abduction of the teenagers, and whoever did it, and that is disputed, invading a country is not a proportional response.

Israel talk about their incursions into Gaza and the death inflincted as 'mowing the lawn'. The death toll shows the the asymmetry of power, with the fourth strongest army in the world on one side, funded by America, and a virtually defenceless civilian population on the other, with Hamas having home made rockets that Israel know, because of the defences America help them set up, will never hit anything of value.

By launching the ground offensive on the pretext of the kidnappings, even though a Palestinian boy was burnt to death, Israel has burnt more houses, hospitals and water plants, displaced probably 50,000 people from their homes and turned the enclave that is Gaza into a living hell.

Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

But through it all, the reason for it is Israeli colonialism.

Yes, in 2005 Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, but under International Law it is still the occupying power. Why? Because it controls access to Gaze by land and air and sea. When Israel left it did not leave freedom, it left Gaza as an open air prison and a it's population able to be punched whenever Israel felt like it.

Hamas won a fair election in 2006, but the western allies of Israel, and Israel itself refused to recognise them, yet Gaza was supposed to be free to rule itself, so they decided on an economic way to overthrow it. In 2007 the blockade ensued, they cut Gaza off from the West Bank and the rest of the world and left the people inside it to indescribable suffering.

Proscribed under internation law, a blockade is collective punishment, so since 2007 the Gazans have been under an unrelenting, illegal seige.

The handling of the situation at the moment is normal for Netanyahu, brutal military force to keep the Gazans under control and keep them remote from the West Bank. He was opposed to the withdrawal in 2005 and he continues to reject a two state solution.

During the Kerry peace talks Netanyahu kept expanding the settlement and didn't have a constructive proposal to put. Kerry even drew up a security plan under which Israel would be able to leave the West Bank. Netanyahu dismissed it as not worth the paper.

In April, Hamas and Fatah reached an Accord, which infuriated Netanyahu, who said it was a 'Terror Pact', how dare the two areas of Palestine get together and work together. The Unity Government Accord was very moderate in it's policies and people. Mainly made of Fatah and without one member of Hamas. To try and work towards stopping the isolation, Hamas had virtually handed over power to Fatah, Fatah being remarkably pro-Western. The Unity Government accepted the conditions of the US and the EU for receiving aid, recognition of Israel, respecting past agreements and renunciation of violence.

Israel's response? Economic warfare. It stopped the government paid officials in Gaza from moving the Gaza government payroll to the Unity Government in Ramallan and it made the seige around the Gazan borders even tighter. The Unity Government thus could not happen. Israel didn't want it, they did not want a Unity Government, even if it did not have a member of Hamas in it. So they made sure they destroyed it. By doing so, they left Hamas with no choice, so after all that hard work, peace was not possible and Israel carried on talking about Hamas as a terrorist organisation and inflicted further horrors on the Gazans.

Everyone can see that a ceasefire is needed, especially the people of Gaza, but the one put up by Egypt met what Israel wanted, but didn't contain one thing for Gaza. And they didn't even bother to consult Hamas. Hamas found out through the media, there were no discussions, no seeing what was needed by both sides, it was simply Sisi allowing Netanyahu to look good. Hamas requires an end of Israeli aggression, the easing of the blockade and the return of the prisoners Israel took after the murder of the three boys. It will not accept less, and why should it?

The international community rose up against Putin over the shooting down of the Malaysian plane, because it was mostly western people who were the victims. They need to do the same to Israel and insist that it abides by the 63 UN resolutions against it, ends the occupation, give back the land it has stolen and allow the Palestinians to live in their own country in freedom or stop handing over the funding that keeps Israel strong, and have a world embargo on it products.

MY VIEWS, MY RESEARCH, MY POST, THAT I ALSO POSTED A SLIGHTLY SHORTED FORM OF IN GUARDIAN COMMENTS.

Sassy wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

"That lady" knows which side of her bread is buttered.  The jackboots here are the ones who have their hands on the missile buttons.  How ironic are the events in Ukraine right now.  Is it God demonstrating the nefarious power of missiles, so we might visualize what Hamas/Gaza is doing?

Still can't counter my very detailed post, do you want me to post it again, just in case you can get your brain round it?

You plagiarized most of the post, so its not even your post but the Guardians you have badly tried to pass off as your own, with no link either

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Still can't counter my very detailed post, do you want me to post it again, just in case you can get your brain round it?

You plagiarized most of the post, so its not even your post but the Guardians you have badly tried to pass off as your own, with no link either

THERE IS NO LINK BECAUSE I WROTE IT, YOU STUPID LITTLE LAP DOG.   ON COMMENTS ARE FREE IN THE GUARDIAN YOU CAN POST.   I POSTED A SHORTENED FORM OF THAT UNDER MY GUARDIAN NAME, KEEP HOPING.

HERE ARE PEOPLES COMMENTS, INCLUDING MINE, KEEP HOPING
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/israelis-die-defend-british-media#start-of-comments

AT THE MOMENT IT HAS 31 LIKES AND I ONLY PUT IT ON AT 8.39

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:


You plagiarized most of the post, so its not even your post but the Guardians you have badly tried to pass off as your own, with no link either

THERE IS NO LINK BECAUSE I WROTE IT, YOU STUPID LITTLE LAP DOG.   ON COMMENTS ARE FREE IN THE GUARDIAN YOU CAN POST.   I POSTED A SHORTENED FORM OF THAT UNDER MY GUARDIAN NAME, KEEP HOPING.

Wow you really are such a poor liar it is beyond belief, so in other words you have copied someone else again, that is plagerizing

I'm not the one that copies, Quill is.

Yip yip yip. That is MY work, I often comment in the Guardian and I take more time and effort over it than on here. But this time I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone, shorten it slightly for the Guardian and post it on here as well.

Sassy wrote:I'm not the one that copies, Quill is.

Yip yip yip.   That is MY work, I often comment in the Guardian and I take more time and effort over it than on here.   But this time I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone, shorten it slightly for the Guardian and post it on here as well.

Hilarious, I mean this debate has been going on for some days and you only now post something you claim you posted on the comments section on the Guardian, behave, you plagiarized it and it is that obvious, comparing your wording to other posts you have made.

I am sure Quill will answer it, as replying takes time, but you expect a reply in seconds, which is comical, is as bad as your comparisons to the Nazis

Sassy wrote:Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

The only ones who have occupied Gaza are the Iranians, through Hamas. On the issue of who started what, timing is most important. I believe the firing of missiles by Hamas/Gaza came first.

You just cannot get around that fact, can you sassy? All the rest of this is just a fancy dance.

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:I'm not the one that copies, Quill is.

Yip yip yip.   That is MY work, I often comment in the Guardian and I take more time and effort over it than on here.   But this time I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone, shorten it slightly for the Guardian and post it on here as well.

Hilarious, I mean this debate has been going on for some days and you only now post something you claim you posted on the comments section on the Guardian, behave, you plagiarized it and it is that obvious, comparing your wording to other posts you have made.

I am sure Quill will answer it, as replying takes time, but you expect a reply in seconds, which is comical, is as bad as your comparisons to the Nazis

OK, I'll prove it. Pick a topic in Guardian Comments section where the comments are still open and I will post.

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

The only ones who have occupied Gaza are the Iranians, through Hamas.  On the issue of who started what, timing is most important.  I believe the firing of missiles by Hamas/Gaza came first.

You just cannot get around that fact, can you sassy?  All the rest of this is just a fancy dance.

You just can't understand facts can you.

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:


Hilarious, I mean this debate has been going on for some days and you only now post something you claim you posted on the comments section on the Guardian, behave, you plagiarized it and it is that obvious, comparing your wording to other posts you have made.

I am sure Quill will answer it, as replying takes time, but you expect a reply in seconds, which is comical, is as bad as your comparisons to the Nazis

OK, I'll prove it.   Pick a topic in Guardian Comments section where the comments are still open and I will post.

Wow, that is your proof ha ha, you have a link to the Guardian you just posted

Sassy wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

The only ones who have occupied Gaza are the Iranians, through Hamas.  On the issue of who started what, timing is most important.  I believe the firing of missiles by Hamas/Gaza came first.

You just cannot get around that fact, can you sassy?  All the rest of this is just a fancy dance.

You just can't understand facts can you.

The facts are clear as a cool, crisp morning. Hamas/Gaza started this conflict. The rest of your post is just song and dance, to skip away from the facts.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/young-skint-self-employed-new-labour-market?commentpage=1

There you go didge, just posted at 3.04, FOR DIDGE in the comments section.

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:

OK, I'll prove it.   Pick a topic in Guardian Comments section where the comments are still open and I will post.

Wow, that is your proof ha ha, you have a link to the Guardian you just posted

Are you DRUNK, thats a link to the comments people have made in The Guardian, not to a Guardian article.

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:

Wow, that is your proof ha ha, you have a link to the Guardian you just posted

Are you DRUNK, thats a link to the comments people have made in The Guardian, not to a Guardian article.

You said ask you to pick a topic, we already have one you linked to, or do you not understand that?
I do not drink, which clearly you have been taking the heroin again tonight loive

I've just given you a link to a post which I put saying FOR DIDGE and the time it was posted. Comments from people, me being Keep Hoping under an article.

You must like making a total arse of yourself, people reading this in the morning will realise how stupid you have been.

Sassy wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/young-skint-self-employed-new-labour-market?commentpage=1

There you go didge, just posted at 3.04, FOR DIDGE in the comments section.

lol that does not prove you still did not plagerize most of your post from articles and added some of of your own words, mainly because I have read some of those comments before

I think you had better do a bit of flouncing, you now have egg, and a lot of it, all over your face.

Sassy wrote:You must like making a total arse of yourself, people reading this in the morning will realise how stupid you have been.

Again just because you post on a comment section does not mean you have not plagiarized most of your post on there also, or do you not understand the difference

My God, you are a bigger fool than I thought you were. I don't need to plagiarise, I write all kinds of things all the time. You are truly desperate. I notice even Quill doesn't want to be associated with your foolishness.

Clearly this is where you plagiarized it from, just adding some of your own words to pass off as your own:


http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201471914626128642


Exposed

I suggest you re-read what I posted.

Sassy wrote:I suggest you re-read what I posted.

I have and read that article and it is obvious, you have plagiarized parts and passed off as your own.

Exposed

PLEASE stop it
talk about the war not each other   

You are a fool. I have mentioned many things that he doesn't. Off you go, after all you are supposed to be at work in the morning, fat lot of work you will be doing after drinking all night.

veya_victaous wrote:PLEASE stop it
talk about the war not each other   

With pleasure Veya.

veya_victaous wrote:PLEASE stop it
talk about the war not each other   

Sorry Veya, I will point out where I see someone lying the similarity of words and how both Sassy's post and the article follow the same pattern and points is all the proof anyone needs to see poor plagiarism, which everyone can see for themselves.


I have made my case so happy to move on

 

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

The classic cry of the Zionist: if you're against Israel then you must be anti Semitic. Lol!

And then you cowardly back track by saying 'I'm not saying you are'.

So let me tell you a few things:

1. I have Arab genes and so I am a Semitic cousin of the Jews
2. I don't like Hamas. No one in the Arab world likes Hamas and would like to see Israel dismantle Hamas. I am against the Palestinians caught in the middle of a war.

You however are most definitively and absolutely condemning the of children as military targets. Are you sure Smelly hasn't hacked your account?

Well I heard some news that seems to confirm my suspicions that some Muslims in this country are being indoctrinated with hate against Jews and yet are not  as stated being taught the same to do something about other Muslim countries against extremist groups..There is clearly something very underhanded going on in this country with indoctrination to young Muslims. You see if people disagree with you then you associate with someone far right or they must be Zionist, proving my point, I though am asking which is where there is a difference

You are a human being and biologically we are all one race and I do not condemn any children, I condemn Hamas when they place 20 rockets in a school confirming they are using children as human shields, which to me proves the pointing they want as many innocent people to die and are assisting in this happening by such tactics which you seem to ignore is the case. I want a ceasefire and have stated as such all the time, of which Hamas has refused to do, something which has escaped you at every turn and if they did the fighting would stop. I do not want to see any loss of life, but I also believe Israel has a right to defend itself and that people should not be bought by the fact that Hamas has manipulated the media because they are using civilians as human shields. Not in all cases and as stated I admit that Israel has committed some war crimes, but they have warned people to leave and have tried to minimize casualties, Hamas do not do the same and every rocket they launch is a crime against humanity.


So nothing cowardly. I have concerns  and I do not see the same passion you have against other conflicts going on, which to me and anyone would raise questions and I fail to see why you do not understand that, which to me is why we see young Muslims going off to Syria and Iraq, they are being indoctrinated and being as you are a British Muslims you will place doubt into people where your loyalties are with. This then raises concerns people have, or do you not even see that?

So you hate Hamas, well why is it you do not show the same passion to unite people to rid Gaza of Hamas, you do that I will give the same passion and zeal to bring about change in Israel and to bring people around to voting in a more Liberal Government, where if this occurs then there is a chance of lasting peace.

Deal?

As I said to you in the bank note protest thread, just because my focus is on the current Gaza conflict does not mean I do not care about other issues.

Nor do I voice all my objections on this forum, so let's not pretend we actually know each other. We don't.

You say we are all human beings but that Muslim/Palestinian children are being indoctrinated to hate Jews and Israelis. Are you really that naive to think Israeli children and adults are not indoctrinated to hate Arabs? Or do you need me to pull up some YouTube clips?

The irony is that Hamas was losing popularity in Gaza, especially after the dismantlement of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Which is why Hamas made a unity deal with Fatah in the West. Bank.

Israel didn't like this, who want. Hamas destroyed at any cost. Hamas do want peace but don't want to capitulate to the demands of the previous ceasefire (negotiated by the man who dismantled the MB in Egypt) for Hamas to disarm completely. That's not a peace plan but a unilateral demand to surrender.

Israel knew Hamas would never accept this and had the excuse to attack Gaza on the ground as well as the air.

This is the realpolitik of this crisis.

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:Well, well, well.   So Didge, saying that people only care about Palestine, finds it odd that others care about Syria, and yet he's been asking why we don't care about Syria.   We do, I did a thread, and explained why I thought people were going out to Syria to try and help because of the immense suffering there.  But beside the point.   Stop defecting and stick to what is happening Gaza, it's bad enough.  

Didge, who says every Muslim on forums should support him, because he 'stands up for them' turns on Zack about his loyalties when Zack has the audacity to stand up for Gaza.   That is exactly what Zionist Jews do to Jews that stand up for their beliefs and say what is happening in Gaza is wrong.

And of course, Didge knows more that a woman who watched her mother being taken into Belsen and says what Israel is doing in Gaza is inhumane and an atrocity and what the West is doing is exactly the same as the Germans did as they watched her mother.

That shows you did not understand anything I just asked Zack, because I am not asking any Muslims to support me because of how I defend against discrimination in this country, not once did I say that, your words not mine and he brought up reference to genes, not I. Which proves again not only do you lie about hacking crap. but you also lie here
Then of course Sassy brings in the old victim status argument of what and how one holocaust survivor feels whilst neglecting how other Jews feel, like one who is 98 survivor and cannot move to get to a bomb shelter, so please spare me your pathetic tactics as I can easily turn them onto you and show then in the same vein, it shows you cannot debate and rely solely on the blame game as you always have done.

My point is valid and would raise any concern, we see countless killings going on daily in for example Syria and Iraq, let alone countless overs, where Muslims Christians etc all innocent are being butchered yet this does not create the same passion and zeal that it does with Israel and Palestine and as I am a Non-Muslim I will question where I find things that do not add up, which is for Zack to answer, which as you are not a Muslim, you cannot answer

No, you were trying to make me out to be some sort of extremist. But then back tracked.

As I said to you before, you have no right to judge me. You have no idea what I do outside this forum. Nor do I have to justify anything to you.

The protest against Gaza has to include demonstrations in the UK, as the UK and other western governments support the Zionist ideals. The UK government has already condemned Assad, so the same type of protest wouldn't work.

This is Freedom Fighting 101 Didge and I'm surprised I have to explain this to someone of your intelligence.

“It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”


― Albert Einstein

Suppose Albert was an extremist too. Or is Didge more intelligent and knowledgeable than Einstein?

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:So, no answers to the very detailed reasons for the conflict and why Israel are committing war crimes, just diversion and avoidance of the posts you can't answer.   This is not about you trying to look clever Quill, which you clearly don't, this is about children being massacred, genocide being committed against a people and war crimes being carried out by Israel, especially, as you have obviously read on the other thread, with the weapons they are using in a action that is supposedly to take out rockets, but are only useful in inflicting dreadful wounds on civilians.

For once in your life, stop making it about you and make it about the people who are suffering, read, learn, inwardly digest and acknowledge the crimes that are being committed instead of finding excuses for them.

And PS, Victor, and many, many others, including many Jews, are saying that the Israeli Government are the Nazi's now.

Which shows how people are clueless on history, so to equate this , you must feel the British are Nazis, for their bombing campaigns, or the Americans also with bombing campaigns in conflicts like with drone attacks in Pakistan? This is why you are vile, to equate as some do to the Nazi's shows how little you know about the Holocaust or what the Nazi's even did, not a war where  sadly civilians die as is happenning here. Nazi's  rounded up people and systematically executed them, killed them in death camps etc, to equate the same to a conflict shows how utterly you and others are out of touch with reality.

“It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”


― Albert Einstein

Are you more intelligent and knowledgeable than Albert Einstein, Didge?

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:I suggest you re-read what I posted.

I have and read that article and it is obvious, you have plagiarized parts and passed off as your own.

Exposed

No, you're just being childish and pathetic. Losing your decorum can only mean you're being wound up. Control yourself.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:


That shows you did not understand anything I just asked Zack, because I am not asking any Muslims to support me because of how I defend against discrimination in this country, not once did I say that, your words not mine and he brought up reference to genes, not I. Which proves again not only do you lie about hacking crap. but you also lie here
Then of course Sassy brings in the old victim status argument of what and how one holocaust survivor feels whilst neglecting how other Jews feel, like one who is 98 survivor and cannot move to get to a bomb shelter, so please spare me your pathetic tactics as I can easily turn them onto you and show then in the same vein, it shows you cannot debate and rely solely on the blame game as you always have done.

My point is valid and would raise any concern, we see countless killings going on daily in for example Syria and Iraq, let alone countless overs, where Muslims Christians etc all innocent are being butchered yet this does not create the same passion and zeal that it does with Israel and Palestine and as I am a Non-Muslim I will question where I find things that do not add up, which is for Zack to answer, which as you are not a Muslim, you cannot answer

No, you were trying to make me out to be some sort of extremist. But then back tracked.

As I said to you before, you have no right to judge me. You have no idea what I do outside this forum. Nor do I have to justify anything to you.

The protest against Gaza has to include demonstrations in the UK, as the UK and other western governments support the Zionist ideals. The UK government has already condemned Assad, so the same type of protest wouldn't work.

This is Freedom Fighting 101 Didge and I'm surprised I have to explain this to someone of your intelligence.

“It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”


― Albert Einstein

Suppose Albert was an extremist too. Or is Didge more intelligent and knowledgeable than Einstein?

Forgive me but is that a rhetorical question ?

gerber wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

No, you were trying to make me out to be some sort of extremist. But then back tracked.

As I said to you before, you have no right to judge me. You have no idea what I do outside this forum. Nor do I have to justify anything to you.

The protest against Gaza has to include demonstrations in the UK, as the UK and other western governments support the Zionist ideals. The UK government has already condemned Assad, so the same type of protest wouldn't work.

This is Freedom Fighting 101 Didge and I'm surprised I have to explain this to someone of your intelligence.

“It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”


― Albert Einstein

Suppose Albert was an extremist too. Or is Didge more intelligent and knowledgeable than Einstein?

Forgive me but is that a rhetorical question ?

No. I actually want to know the depth of Didge's arrogance.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

gerber wrote:



Forgive me but is that a rhetorical question ?

No. I actually want to know the depth of Didge's arrogance.

Inches, feet, yards, miles, rods, perches, chains or fathoms.......... maybe even leagues   

Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

I am still waiting for the catch line in this joke for a title. Since when did Israel ever need provocation? They provoke others to create aggravation just to justify retaliatory attacks.  It is time their toys were thrown back ::fishffight:: 

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:


Well I heard some news that seems to confirm my suspicions that some Muslims in this country are being indoctrinated with hate against Jews and yet are not  as stated being taught the same to do something about other Muslim countries against extremist groups..There is clearly something very underhanded going on in this country with indoctrination to young Muslims. You see if people disagree with you then you associate with someone far right or they must be Zionist, proving my point, I though am asking which is where there is a difference

You are a human being and biologically we are all one race and I do not condemn any children, I condemn Hamas when they place 20 rockets in a school confirming they are using children as human shields, which to me proves the pointing they want as many innocent people to die and are assisting in this happening by such tactics which you seem to ignore is the case. I want a ceasefire and have stated as such all the time, of which Hamas has refused to do, something which has escaped you at every turn and if they did the fighting would stop. I do not want to see any loss of life, but I also believe Israel has a right to defend itself and that people should not be bought by the fact that Hamas has manipulated the media because they are using civilians as human shields. Not in all cases and as stated I admit that Israel has committed some war crimes, but they have warned people to leave and have tried to minimize casualties, Hamas do not do the same and every rocket they launch is a crime against humanity.


So nothing cowardly. I have concerns  and I do not see the same passion you have against other conflicts going on, which to me and anyone would raise questions and I fail to see why you do not understand that, which to me is why we see young Muslims going off to Syria and Iraq, they are being indoctrinated and being as you are a British Muslims you will place doubt into people where your loyalties are with. This then raises concerns people have, or do you not even see that?

So you hate Hamas, well why is it you do not show the same passion to unite people to rid Gaza of Hamas, you do that I will give the same passion and zeal to bring about change in Israel and to bring people around to voting in a more Liberal Government, where if this occurs then there is a chance of lasting peace.

Deal?

As I said to you in the bank note protest thread, just because my focus is on the current Gaza conflict does not mean I do not care about other issues.

Nor do I voice all my objections on this forum, so let's not pretend we actually know each other. We don't.

You say we are all human beings but that Muslim/Palestinian children are being indoctrinated to hate Jews and Israelis. Are you really that naive to think Israeli children and adults are not indoctrinated to hate Arabs? Or do you need me to pull up some YouTube clips?

The irony is that Hamas was losing popularity in Gaza, especially after the dismantlement of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Which is why Hamas made a unity deal with Fatah in the West. Bank.

Israel didn't like this, who want. Hamas destroyed at any cost. Hamas do want peace but don't want to capitulate to the demands of the previous ceasefire (negotiated by the man who dismantled the MB in Egypt) for Hamas to disarm completely. That's not a peace plan but a unilateral demand to surrender.

Israel knew Hamas would never accept this and had the excuse to attack Gaza on the ground as well as the air.

This is the realpolitik of this crisis.

I do believe some children are indoctrinated to hate Arabs, but you also ignore that so are Arabs, or would you like proof?





• Some 70 percent of those considered anti-Semitic said they have never met a Jew. Overall, 74 percent of respondents said they had never met a Jew.
• Thirty-five percent of those surveyed had never heard of the Holocaust. Of those who had, roughly one-third said it is either a myth or greatly exaggerated.
• The most anti-Semitic region in the world is the Middle East and North Africa, with 74 percent harboring anti-Semitic views. Eastern Europe was second at 34 percent. The least anti-Semitic region was Oceania (Australia and New Zealand) at 14 percent.
• The three countries outside the Middle East with the highest rates of anti-Semitic attitudes were Greece, at 69 percent, Malaysia at 61 percent and Armenia at 58 percent.
• About 49 percent of Muslims worldwide harbor anti-Semitic views, compared to 24 percent of Christians.
• The West Bank and Gaza were the most anti-Semitic places surveyed, with 93 percent of respondents expressing anti-Semitic views. The Arab country with the lowest level of anti-Semitic views was Morocco, at 80 percent. Iran ranked as the least anti-Semitic country in the Middle East, at 56 percent.
• The least anti-Semitic country overall was Laos, where 0.2 percent of the population holds anti-Semitic views. The Philippines, Sweden, the Netherlands and Vietnam all came in at 6 percent or lower.
• Approximately 9 percent of Americans and 14 percent of Canadians harbor anti-Semitic attitudes.
• Thirty-four percent of respondents older than 65 were deemed anti-Semitic, compared to 25 percent of those younger than 65. Men polled were slightly more anti-Semitic than women

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/05/13/news-opinion/world/survey-more-than-a-quarter-of-the-world-hates-jews#ixzz387UjudYv


Does this not concern you also Zack?

No this is why Hamas started the conflict as I have already stated they were losing popularity, can you not read or do you require going to specsavers. This is why we know they place rockets and launchers within civilian areas are did not the Proof of this whit the UN finding 20 rockets in a school escape your attention?
Hamas needs the sympathy vote and the best PR they can have is to offer up its own civilians as sacrifices which you fail to understand, there is no denying they use civilians as human shields as just proven, what is also wrong which I have condemned is where Israel get it wrong and kill civilians where there is no military target, that is a war crime and condemn it. That is the vile reality of their resolve and as yet they still do not want a ceasefire even after ones have been put forward and their response was some pathetic excuse claiming it would be a surrender, sorry that is bull, a ceasefire brings about a stop to the fighting thus stopping anymore getting hurt and to the then discuss further proposals.

In my view both sides were looking to fight, but Gaza started this by firing rockets after the young boy died, Israel did not do this, after the 3 young Israeli's died, which speaks volumes.



I see you do not want to take me up on my proposal, interesting