Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:13 am

First topic message reminder :

Palestinians as a diverse society are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation.

In much of the North American and western European media reporting on the current Israeli carnage of Palestinians, a common refrain is that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards Israel. Given the sophisticated defence system Israel possesses, courtesy of US taxpayers, none of these rockets hit any targets and fortunately no Israeli man, woman, or child has lost any life or limb because of them. This fact has scarcely bothered BBC, CNN, or any other shamelessly pro-Israeli outlet that always seeks to "balance" their reporting on Gaza by mentioning the fact that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards the Jewish state.

In one particularly nefarious example, Diane Sawyer of ABC showed a picture of Palestinians enduring Israeli bombing but told her American audience these were the pictures of Israelis under attack by Hamas rockets.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that Hamas does shoot some rockets towards Israel, and though these rockets scarcely harm anyone does not diminish their intent, which is to hit somewhere or harm someone. So the Hamas operation intends to harm people but they cannot do as they wish for their military wherewithal is not outsourced to the United States.

Thanks to AIPAC and other Israeli lobbies and pro-Israeli billionaires, among them those who encourage US President Barack Obama to nuke Iran on behalf of Israel, Israel enjoys a special relationship with the most deadly military machinery on the planet and partakes in that deadly force at will. Hamas in this regard has lost the bid to its Israeli counterparts and any outside military help they might receive is from countries like Iran that can hardly be compared to that gargantuan deadly machine called the US.

Erratic rockets

Useless as they are, why is Hamas firing these erratic rockets, and why would they not stop them anyway? Why bother? They are hardly any match for the Israeli army. After all, Hamas is David and Israel is Goliath in this contest. Wouldn't Palestinians be better off without Hamas trying to defend them in Gaza?

Here we need to ask the question in a slightly larger context. Is Hamas not a legitimate Palestinian organisation, with enough grassroots support that it won a major parliamentary election in Gaza back in 2006? I have known, and I still know, many Palestinians who do not like Hamas, disagree with their ideology, and oppose their ways. But these Palestinians of diverse political opinions are as much part of the Palestinian resistance to occupation and theft of their homeland as Hamas is.

Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies.

By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience. Resistance for Palestinians is definitive of who and what they are. They might be a poet like Mahmoud Darwish, a novelist like Ghassan Kanafani, a film-maker like Michel Khleifi, an artist like Mona Hatoum, a feminist like Lila Abu Lughod - but in doing what they do, whatever they do, they oppose and defy the armed robbery of their homeland.

But there are also those Palestinians who have taken arms and opposed villainy by violence. As part of this resistance, Hamas is integral to the Palestinian national liberation movement, but like any other forms of resistance, Hamas is not definitive to Palestine.

Israeli propaganda machinery

What the Israeli propaganda machinery does is to reduce the entirety of Palestine, the rich and diversified tapestry of Palestinian resistance, to Hamas, then demonise Hamas. The strategy works, especially aided and abetted by major state-sponsored or corporate media like BBC, ABC, or CNN. Execute this strategy, and go on a rampage against Palestinians, maim and murder them with impunity.

Now for the sake of argument: Suppose we wake up tomorrow morning and there is no Hamas to shoot off any useless rockets towards Israel. Then what? The magnificent Israeli benevolence will move into operation and return the stolen Palestine to their rightful owners? Of course not. Suppose Hamas did not even exist since its founding in 1987. Then what? Israel would have by now returned Palestine to its rightful owners? Of course not.

Palestinians are varied and Palestinians are entirely entitled to resist and oppose the occupation and theft of their homeland by any means they deem necessary - whether it is by a beautiful song by Muhammad Assaf, a magnificent poem by Mahmoud Darwish, a film by Elia Suleiman, a novel by Ghassan Kanafani, a book on Palestinian costumes by Widad Kawar, or another on Palestinian cuisine by Rawia Bishara or by the militant Marxist organisation PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine), or indeed through the Islamist ideology of Hamas.

One may not agree with Hamas, may not join them, but one cannot reduce the entire tapestry of Palestinian resistance to Hamas, or tell Hamas to disband, for Israelis are about to return Palestine to its rightful owners.

So the bogus proposition that Hamas provokes Israel to attack Gaza is not only narratively false because Israeli military operations in Palestine always predate any Hamas operation, but also because Palestinians in their entirety are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation in whatever form they deem necessary. Dividing these forms of resistance into "moderate" and "militant" will also lead nowhere but the pestiferous Washington think tanks.

A film by Annemarie Jacir, an art installation by Emily Jacir, a poem by Rafeef Ziadah or Dana Dajani, or a moving song by Rim Banna is infinitely more radical than any flimsy rocket that Hamas might fire. The Israeli propaganda machinery does not want the world to know these radically defiant forms of Palestinian resistance that have grabbed Zionism by the throat for generations and do not allow it to swallow Palestine. But they magnify Hamas as the face of Palestine.

Military atrocities

In a future free and democratic Palestine, who knows how many votes Hamas would garner in a given election. But we are nowhere near that moment yet - and Israel and its criminal military atrocities are the principle obstacle why we are nowhere near that point. Until then, Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist the robbery of their homeland by any means they deem necessary, including, but never limited to, Hamas.

Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea.

Zionism as a murderous machinery of colonial conquest will not stop until the very last inch of Palestine is taken - and yet the Palestinians persist in their homeland, resist occupation, procreate, sing, dance, compose music and poetry, make films, stage drama, organise acts of civil disobedience, mobilise for BDS ... and yes, of course, some of them also pick up a few flimsy arms against the most sophisticated armed robbery of a homeland in history.

Hamid Dabashi is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/hamas-provoke-israel-attack-201471512246535512.html

That sums it up exactly.

If Hammas disappeared tomorrow Israel would not stop until it had all of Palestine.

by Fuzzy Zack Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:04 pm

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Yet mire excuses and failure to answer the question.

I'll give you one more chance: what are the estimated numbers?

What did you fail to understand in regard to the majority of targets are not Hamas but to take out their capabilities to attack Israel?

Seriously, what did you not understand by this?

That means, tunnels, rocket launchers etc, only some of Hamas have been targeted which estimates place as 75% of the causalities are claimed to civilians.

Some 271 Palestinians - three-quarters of them civilians - have died since the start of the wider Israeli operation on 8 July, officials in Gaza say.

So again your point is utterly moot and you will have more time to understand why it is moot by answering the questions which you twist and turn out of and each turn and we all know why of course.

So again

Again most of the targets are not even Hamas, but taking out facilities that Hamas uses, so your question is rather moot, when again this is followed on by my questions, which is why some civilians sadly are dying
So again why are Hamas placing military hardware in civilian areas?
Why are they telling people not to evacuate?
Why are they advising some to be human shields?
Why have they built no bomb shelters?

You are unashamedly conflating 'targets' with civilian casualties, in order to say my point is moot. That is the kind of human being you are.

Show me where in Gaza Hamas is placing military hardware?
Your questions are pure Zionist propaganda. Idf kill a civilian and say they were being used as a human shield.
As for bomb shelters, the idf call those terrrorist tunnels and are blowing them up right now. Would you want to take shelter there?

And do you really think a 75% civilian death ratio is acceptable?

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:20 pm

Talking of human shields:

Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza? - Page 4 Dailymail_humanshield

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:33 pm

Didge wrote:Wow more C&P, seriously Quill, you may have to start emailing the writers of all these articles

Just the crap to gey me back here...

didge, quill, and one or two others here are the FIRST to demand "evidence" or cite cases or whatever.....

and the moment someone does exactly that they whinge "copy and paste"

YET especially didge, is fond of c&p from some of the most dodgy sources going...such as PETA...the wiorlds most discredited "animal welfare" organisation. Why. he even used a source that was suposedly provided by two individulas , that appeared NOWHERE on the web...except in a long forgotten and dusty lie filled corner of one of PETAs' own pieces...

Lets face it it is nothing but intellectual arrogance, in fact it is intellectual ignorance...a sort of intellectuall boor. The sort you would expect to find comprising menbers of that erstwhile establishment "the bullington club".

In truth 90+% of all university theisies are nothing but copy and paste, very little work done is "original" or "innovative" (or we would be up to our nuts in "inovation"...) but it is in reality more often than not a "pulling together" of other peoples work (out of which sometimes, something new may be derived). The purpose of university theiesis is of course to prove that the candidate is capable of research....

As to the point of this thread, in refusing to condemn the massive overrecation and massive disproportionality of the israeli response, Didge is actually saying the I would be well within my rights to throw boiling oil on burglar, who was armed with only a stick.....or that I was within my rights to beat an unarmed burglar to death with my bare fists.....

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:36 pm

Hi Victor, lovely to see you back x

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:38 pm

snarl......

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:42 pm

I rather gathered that affraid

It's very funny to watch though ::lightsab:: lol!

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:59 pm

Gaza was previously controlled by Egypt and captured after war against Arab aggression.
It was kept because of strategic position and as way of trying to bring Israeli security from further attack.
It was handed back in 2005 as a gesture of peace and good will.
The people against were because they thought this would just lead to Gaza being a security risk and a launchpad for further attacks.
And this is exactly what has happened.
Gaza quickly became controlled by Hamas with other Islamist groups launching missiles ever since.
Israel are the first round the table trying to broker ceasefires and peace talks.
There would not be a blockade on Gaza by Israel if it was not being used by militants in attacks against them.
Israel wants peace and security and if their neighbours allow this for the good of everyone, and then all can concentrate their efforts into improving their lives, the start of mutual acceptance and tolerance, an opening up of increasing friendly relations, increasing trust and cooperation this will bring..... a benefit to all, with Palestineians having the most to gain with opening up of restrictions, increased aid, infrastructure, development.... the list goes on....
Instant better life for all concerned..... which I'm sure the majority of people on each side wants more than anything.....

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:02 am

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And you have actually swallowed all that manipulation and come back for more.

by Irn Bru Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:13 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

Firing rockets at civilians is a crime against humanity, Israel at least warns where it is going to attack, Hamas does not!!

Really, then what about shelling boys playing football on a beach, and reshelling the ones that they missed and were running away?

That is a crime against humanity, as no warning was given, where a warning is given, Israel is complying with international laws.
Again you use examples of where mistakes have happened, what you fail to address each time is why Hamas tells people not to leave, when advised by Israel and why they place their weaponry within civilian areas.
Even the Hamas official I posted agrees that firing rockets into Israel is a crime against humanity

Which international laws are Israel complying with Didge?

by Irn Bru Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:20 am

Fatah’s announcement that they have reached an agreement with Hamas regarding unity was the perfect opportunity for Netanyahu to pull the plug on the talks over a two state solution so until they start talking again then the cycle of violence will just go on and on and Gaza will still be blockaded leaving its residents living with inadequate services in all sectors and the threat of being blown apart on a daily basis.

There will surely be no peace in the region without involving Hamas in the process and that view is held by informed political commentators in the area who are knowledgeable on the current state of how things are panning out at this time.

The pleas for peace will be doomed given the original breakdown in talks caused by Israel pulling out due to their insistence that Fatah can’t make peace with Israel whilst reconciling with Hamas and the pressure is mounting on all parties to come to the table with a vision for the future that will be acceptable and based on mutual understanding that they both have to live in those lands. I sincerely hope they can do that.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:53 am

Sassy you obviously missed the main gist of my post.

Basically peace and stability is what is needed and wanted by all sides.

With immediate benefit to all concerned.

Peace is,good for everyone, anything else is bad for everyone..... except the arms manufacturers.....

by Irn Bru Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Sassy you obviously missed the main gist of my post.

Basically peace and stability is what is needed and wanted by all sides.

With immediate benefit to all concerned.

Peace is,good for everyone, anything else is bad for everyone..... except the arms manufacturers.....

That's great Tommy. I may have missed it but what's your solution to bring that about?

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:48 am

Solution...?

All must realise that a peaceful solution is needed.

Mutual recognition and acceptance.

Truth and reconciliation.

Mutual cooperation.

Opening up of friendly relations.

Trust.

Peace, stability, prosperity, better life for all.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:10 am

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:Wow more C&P, seriously Quill, you may have to start emailing the writers of all these articles

Just the crap to gey me back here...

didge, quill, and one or two others here are the FIRST to demand "evidence" or cite cases or whatever.....

and the moment someone does exactly that they whinge "copy and paste"

YET especially didge, is fond of c&p from some of the most dodgy sources going...such as PETA...the wiorlds most discredited "animal welfare" organisation. Why. he even used a source that was suposedly provided by two individulas , that appeared NOWHERE on the web...except in a long forgotten and dusty lie filled corner of one of PETAs' own pieces...

Lets face it it is nothing but intellectual arrogance, in fact it is intellectual ignorance...a sort of intellectuall boor. The sort you would expect to find comprising menbers of that erstwhile establishment "the bullington club".

In truth 90+% of all university theisies are nothing but copy and paste, very little work done is "original" or "innovative" (or we would be up to our nuts in "inovation"...) but it is in reality more often than not a "pulling together" of other peoples work (out of which sometimes, something new may be derived). The purpose of university theiesis is of course to prove that the candidate is capable of research....

As to the point of this thread, in refusing to condemn the massive overrecation and massive disproportionality of the israeli response, Didge is actually saying the I would be well within my rights to throw boiling oil on burglar, who was armed with only a stick.....or that I was within my rights to beat an unarmed burglar to death with my bare fists.....

Hilalrious and what a child, no I write most of my own responses unlike Stassi who has to copy every other article and post them onto this forum and now we see you are a secret Muslim extremist supporter, which just about sums you up really. In fact if you were clever enough to read which clearly you have failed to do so, I actually want peace an for lasting peace which means for both sides to reconcile, but hen you always were so angry on just about any thing where I constancy show you up, that you fail to understand anything. Sorry an over reaction you say and you now compare rockets to eggs, what sort of fucked up twisted sicko are you? Yes go please tell the Israeli people who have to run to bomb shelters they are being targeted with eggs by an extremist group who has since had two offers of a cease fire and in both cases refused them, a group that places military hardware within civilian areas, because it actually wants civilian casualties to garner support, how it has never built any bomb shelters, even though they get plenty of money, how itadvises people to stay and die in attacks which they have ensure will happen, even though Israel warns of attacks, but they tell people to stay put because they need people to die to use this to gain support.

Is Israel over reacting, well when you learn that someone is intent on your destruction and as a people some fuckwit actually tried this before, then maybe you too might be very apprehensive over anyone that is and has stated they wish to wipe you from exsistance, but then you always agreed with Stassi, even when she supports Islamic terrorists, failing to understand anything. The ball is in Hamas' court they decide and wish death for Palestine and have lost much support which is why they started this and for you to compare rockets to eggs shows how fare you have lost your marbles in your old age. So basically you never came back to debate, just to come out with the same lame poor attacks onto poster who always make you look a right dick that you are

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:13 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

That is a crime against humanity, as no warning was given, where a warning is given, Israel is complying with international laws.
Again you use examples of where mistakes have happened, what you fail to address each time is why Hamas tells people not to leave, when advised by Israel and why they place their weaponry within civilian areas.
Even the Hamas official I posted agrees that firing rockets into Israel is a crime against humanity

Which international laws are Israel complying with Didge?

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-hamas-guilty-of-war-crimes/

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:22 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

What did you fail to understand in regard to the majority of targets are not Hamas but to take out their capabilities to attack Israel?

Seriously, what did you not understand by this?

That means, tunnels, rocket launchers etc, only some of Hamas have been targeted which estimates place as 75% of the causalities are claimed to civilians.

Some 271 Palestinians - three-quarters of them civilians - have died since the start of the wider Israeli operation on 8 July, officials in Gaza say.

So again your point is utterly moot and you will have more time to understand why it is moot by answering the questions which you twist and turn out of and each turn and we all know why of course.

So again

Again most of the targets are not even Hamas, but taking out facilities that Hamas uses, so your question is rather moot, when again this is followed on by my questions, which is why some civilians sadly are dying
So again why are Hamas placing military hardware in civilian areas?
Why are they telling people not to evacuate?
Why are they advising some to be human shields?
Why have they built no bomb shelters?

You are unashamedly conflating 'targets' with civilian casualties, in order to say my point is moot. That is the kind of human being you are.

Show me where in Gaza Hamas is placing military hardware?
Your questions are pure Zionist propaganda. Idf kill a civilian and say they were being used as a human shield.
As for bomb shelters, the idf call those terrrorist tunnels and are blowing them up right now. Would you want to take shelter there?

And do you really think a 75% civilian death ratio is acceptable?

Wow so I give you the number that the Palestinians have given and you question this and then give me some very lame responses avoiding my questions, sorry that will not do try again:

So now it is Zionism, wow, that shows how fucking extremist you have become Zack that you listen and only concern yourself for the regard of Muslims and we now see your antisemitism shining through to claim Zionist, when these are a facts regarding Hamas, so it is clear to see the problem there is which I have always stated with any person who holds a literal religious belief where they are clouded with propaganda crap. I am against Zionist extremism and certainly know some of them are hell bent on the Palestinian destruction, but they are few and far between, just like most Palestinians are not Hamas either, but you now say it is Zionist to point out realities?
I donot think any civilian deaths is acceptable, it never is in conflicts or war, but then you need to ask yourself again why Hamas is intent on the destruction of its own people by stop avoiding my questions and actually answering them, What is such appalling is you whip up support for an extremist organisation, whilst in countless countries Muslim extremists are killing innocent Muslims, where is your organised protests there Zack? There is none and you want people to go against Israel who has better equality for people than any surrounding nation?

So try again

Again most of the targets are not even Hamas, but taking out facilities that Hamas uses, so your question is rather moot, when again this is followed on by my questions, which is why some civilians sadly are dying
So again why are Hamas placing military hardware in civilian areas?
Why are they telling people not to evacuate?
Why are they advising some to be human shields?
Why have they built no bomb shelters?

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:28 am

Also zack are you tellinng people, Israel with some of the most sophisticatic equipment called satellites and drones cannot pinpoint the exact location of missile launches aimed at Israeli cities from the midst of Palestinian schools, mosques, hospitals, homes for the disabled and residential areas?
Behave, it shows how clueless you are to technology it seems or now you claim Israel is lying even though, this is how they exactly know who to phone, because they have such technology in the first place to warn them, unlike Hams.
Tunnels are now bomb shelters, really, is that why militants are in them and not civilians?
Well this is the worry in this country the growing antisemitism being spread and wow and who by of all people.

by Original Quill Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:41 am

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:Wow more C&P, seriously Quill, you may have to start emailing the writers of all these articles

Just the crap to gey me back here...

didge, quill, and one or two others here are the FIRST to demand "evidence" or cite cases or whatever.....

and the moment someone does exactly that they whinge "copy and paste"

YET especially didge, is fond of c&p from some of the most dodgy sources going...such as PETA...the wiorlds most discredited "animal welfare" organisation. Why. he even used a source that was suposedly provided by two individulas , that appeared NOWHERE on the web...except in a long forgotten and dusty lie filled corner of one of PETAs' own pieces...

Lets face it it is nothing but intellectual arrogance, in fact it is intellectual ignorance...a sort of intellectuall boor. The sort you would expect to find comprising menbers of that erstwhile establishment "the bullington club".

In truth 90+% of all university theisies are nothing but copy and paste, very little work done is "original" or "innovative" (or we would be up to our nuts in "inovation"...) but it is in reality more often than not a "pulling together" of other peoples work (out of which sometimes, something new may be derived). The purpose of university theiesis is of course to prove that the candidate is capable of research....

As to the point of this thread, in refusing to condemn the massive overrecation and massive disproportionality of the israeli response, Didge is actually saying the I would be well within my rights to throw boiling oil on burglar, who was armed with only a stick.....or that I was within my rights to beat an unarmed burglar to death with my bare fists.....

Unfortunately Vic, C&P is not evidence. All we are asking for is some basic original thinking. Sassy put up the original article and has no idea what it says. It's enough for her somehow, that it says that Hamas is not Palestine. No idea what the article says, or why it argues that.

In fact, the author has no idea either, as I pointed out in an original detailed analysis on the previous page. His point is vacuous: he takes flights of fancy into films and poems, but never once answers the crucial question of why it is necessary to lob missiles over the border at your neighbors.

No one has even addressed that analysis, proving that no one is even reading their own C&P jobs. Can someone please discuss the issue without a left turn into personal insults, without another C&P job (which doesn't impress us), which they have not even read, and engage in a relevant discussion in response.

Good god, why do they post their C&P jobs when they don't even read them themselves?

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:48 am

But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

When Israel faces down Iran, all will be well. I give odds to Israel, 5-2. In any event, the showdown is inevitable.

1,284 missiles? Do you think someone lobbed 1,284 missiles into Germany before WWII? Only if you do, can you make Germany the victim...akin to Palestinian Gaza. Hamas is the fly in the ointment. Hamas is the abuser of peace.

Hamas is doing nothing whatsoever to protect the Palestinians. What do you think? That these missiles are defensive weapons? Is that what you think? They are provocative, offensive weapons and they only serve Iran. And believe me, Iran cares nothing about the suffering of Palestinian children.

I think it is rather obvious the game that is being played. Iran is reaching for the sympathy vote by touting the victim count, while in fact causing the carnage

through the provocation of missile strikes. Iran thinks its own hand (Hamas) is invisible. People world-wide are not falling for it. Mainly because they are not that stupid.

The most humanitarian thing that can be done is an Israeli invasion, taking Hamas out, and restoring Gaza to a peaceful, civilized existence.

Either that is bullshite, or the Palestinians are incredibly bad at making their case. He completely avoids the essential question: What? For what are the missiles being tossed? In any event, lobbing missiles is a stupid way to make a point…it isn’t even your point.

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

So Quill, these are your little bon motes in reply to the OP. And you think that means you understand what was being said. What they actually showed is that you have no understanding of the situation, but keep repeating your daily mantra, Hamas is Iran, Iran is Hamas. At no time to you ever bring yourself to realize that people in different regions of the Middle East are not one amalgamated mass, all thinking the same, all believing the same. And that was the point of the OP, The people of Gaza are as diverse as people anywhere in the world.

"Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies."

Hamas was voted in and represents these diverse people and, as in any diverse society, you have people who voted for them and people that didn't. However all of them, including the people that didn't, are united in their resistance to Israel stealing their land AGAIN and trying to wipe them out.

Let's take your first post:

But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Responding in kind? That's if you take out of the equation the fact that Israel do not just subject Gaza to military force, they subject every day, with their checkpoints and their embargo, and their removal of of Palestinians from their legally owned land and the bulldozing of their houses, the way they control the fuel of the supply of electricity, so that electrical outrages are the norm in Gaza, every single day, the water situation which they will not allow to be alleviated and with the bombing are making worse and all the other thousand and one things that are never reported in the Western press. The fact that the Gazan are living in a prison of Israel's making. Lobbing rockets that they know will very rarely reach any targets because of the money America has poured into Israel, so that they have the technical abilities to stop those rockets is not exactly a level playing field.

Israel makes life in Gaza desperate every single day in so many ways, and you think that when Gaza fires rockets because of that, the Israel bombardment is 'responding in kind'.

Now lets go to your second statement, the most ludicrous one of the lot:

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

By humanitarian way, do you mean bulldozing houses? Do you mean illegally taking land? Do you mean shooting farmers in their fields because they fields are near the border? Do you mean beating up a Palestinian boy and then backtracking like mad when they discover he is American? Do you mean beating up an American Jewish boy because he dared to tell Israeli extremists what they were doing is wrong? Do you mean threatening to burn down churches? Do you mean beating Rabbi's who tell them that taking Palestinian land is wrong? Is that your view of humanitarian?

Now another:

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

Well no, actually Israel had occupied Gaza illegally and Sharon could see, even he, a total hawk, could see that it was not only wrong but that Israel would then have in their midst people who's land they had taken and who would always resent them. But then, while returning it to it's rightful owners, Israel, because Sharon was now in a coma, proceeded to subject the people to the equivalent of mass torture every day, which made them resent Israel just as much and strengthened their resolve never to give up. And now the people who didn't want Sharon to give it back, the Likud Party and the most extreme of them all, Netanyahu are now in control and doing what they wanted to do then, on a pretext drummed up by the leader of Mossad.

Now it has emerged that the head of the Israeli Mossad actually “called” the kidnapping a week in advance!

Israeli newspaper, Haaretz just reported: Mossad chief’s chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy.

Kevin Barrett, Veterans Today Editor in his article titled “Smoking gun proof of “Israeli teen kidnapping” false flag” writes Mossad Chief predicted “three teens will be kidnapped” one week before it happened.

I'm not going to give you the link, its in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, find it for yourself for once.

And:

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

Palestinians are not bad at making their case, their case doesn't need making, it is recognised all over the world, hence so many of the world condemns Israel. What Palestine hasn't got to make it's case is the influence of Israel, so that there is virtually no media that actually gives an even handed view, and like the CNN journalist who does actually tell it like it is, she is 'moved on' lest the truth hurts the delicate ears of America. Israel has no reason of justification of rationale, it has what is was given and twice as much more, they just go from I want to I will take, and boy have they taken.

And finally, to the whole point of the article, that you have not only missed by a mile, but simply haven't recognised.

"Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea."

And the whole diversity of Gaza, be they supporter or non supporter of Hamas, be they doctor, poet, engineer or road sweeper, all know that and will resist Israel to the last.

And I will say that, I rather resent the fact that because you had no understanding of the OP, I had to be as longwinded as you are, when I prefer to be concise and to the point.

by Irn Bru Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:12 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

That is a crime against humanity, as no warning was given, where a warning is given, Israel is complying with international laws.
Again you use examples of where mistakes have happened, what you fail to address each time is why Hamas tells people not to leave, when advised by Israel and why they place their weaponry within civilian areas.
Even the Hamas official I posted agrees that firing rockets into Israel is a crime against humanity

Which international laws are Israel complying with Didge?

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-hamas-guilty-of-war-crimes/

NO Didge, I'm asking which international law that you say Israel is complying with, not a report from the Jerusalem think tank, the Israel Democracy Institute, claiming that Hamas are guilty of war crimes.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:15 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-hamas-guilty-of-war-crimes/

NO Didge, I'm asking which international law that you say Israel is complying with, not a report from the Jerusalem think tank, the Israel Democracy Institute, claiming that Hamas are guilty of war crimes.

I just have, they are proving they are informing people which is even backed up by the earlier video by a Hamas official, whereas Hamas is not informing anyone of when they are going to target them, Israel is trying to minimize civilians casualties. You need to show me where they are breaking any international laws if you think I am wrong.

So YES Irn who thinks capitalizing a word is going to make a fat lot of difference.

You know what I find fundamentally wrong about all about all these constant posts about Israel and the wrongs done, is two fold.

One, why are people so delusional to think Hamas are in anyway nothing more than extremists, happy to use civilians as shields knowing full well, such disgusting behavior will result in deaths. They want this being they gain PR and sympathy, because this is why they started the conflict because their support had nosedived, mainly because they backed the MB and were against Assad, which has now come back to bite them.

Second, why is it we see countless articles about Israel calling for action against Israel and from the same people, even more so the ones who are British Muslims, no articles constantly regarding , the Taliban, Isis, boko haram etc, where is the calls for protests where it is actually innocent Muslims dying at the hands of Muslim extremist? Where is the same zeal and passion for something to be done here? Where is the passion to end the abuses to human rights in places like Saudi, where is the articles condemning Christians being persecuted by Muslim extremists in some Muslim countries? You see none of this which really concerns me, for one why British Muslims are so passionate and angered more so about Israel and Palestine, yet daily suicide bombs go off throughout the middle East to Pakistan. Where is the same passion and zeal to call action against Isis who have been committing countless atrocities to innocent Muslims, no matter if they are Shia or Sunni? I could go the list is endless. See this from my point of you I argue against those who club Muslims poorly together with extremists an the terrorism they do, I deplore such poor arguments an will defend innocent Muslims being stereotyped wrongly, but why the silence here and not the same passion to right wrongs that are a hundred times worse where Muslims are suffering?

This concerns me greatly that the only zeal and venom full of hate is targeted against Israel, not Isis, not boko haram, not the Taliban, it begs the question if those who are using the conflict about Israel and Palestine are nothing more than antisemitic, because many agree here including myself Israel should not build settlements, it should come to peace, it should cease all conflict and more than anything have a the people vote in a more liberal government. Yet we are shouted at with such hatred , which I am seeing more and more over these articles, if we state Hamas needs to go for their to be any chance of peace, instead what is thrown back is absurd claims Israel wants to wipe out Palestine, which it has had ample opportunity to do and never has. These same people I join together with when people wrong attack Muslims when they club them together with extremists wronly, so I am not being rash here, as I see again something very sinister about how this hate I am seeing against Israel a nation who has little connection to the UK, has more rights than any Muslim country yet makes people hate them, more so than Muslim extremists with not have the same hate and passion driven towards this extremist groups. If they had this same passion against all extremist groups I could understand, but this is near non-existent from the same people and on such different levels, that those people who do speak out against Israel, prove my point on this when they poorly excuse Hamas .

That is a very grave concern

by Lone Wolf Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:19 pm

Death Toll in Gaza since Israeli police and military forces first entered "occupied" Palestinian territory, ostensibly looking for those 3 murdered teen's a couple of weeks back...

Palestinians 240+

Israelis 4 or 5 ?

SAYS it all, really..

The 'Zionists' have forgotten the lessons of the past ~ and become the very monsters that they themselves feared so much previously up until the mid-20th century... Evil or Very Mad

by Fuzzy Zack Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:43 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:

Death Toll in Gaza since Israeli police and military forces first entered "occupied" Palestinian territory, ostensibly looking for those 3 murdered teen's a couple of weeks back...

Palestinians 240+

Israelis 4 or 5 ?

SAYS it all, really..

The 'Zionists' have forgotten the lessons of the past ~ and become the very monsters that they themselves feared so much previously up until the mid-20th century...

Exactly right. And Didge thinks I'm an extremist for pointing this out. Lol!

Didge clearly believes the Zionist propaganda and no matter what, will find an excuse for the murder of children.

by Fuzzy Zack Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:44 pm

Didge wrote:Also zack are you tellinng people, Israel with some of the most sophisticatic equipment called satellites and drones cannot pinpoint the exact location of missile launches aimed at Israeli cities from the midst of Palestinian schools, mosques, hospitals, homes for the disabled and residential areas?
Behave, it shows how clueless you are to technology it seems or now you claim Israel is lying even though, this is how they exactly know who to phone, because they have such technology in the first place to warn them, unlike Hams.
Tunnels are now bomb shelters, really, is that why militants are in them and not civilians?
Well this is the worry in this country the growing antisemitism being spread and wow and who by of all people.

You're just trying to put words in my mouth to justify the killing of children. You're quite pathetic and a spineless man.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:46 pm

Man poke snake, man get bitten!

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:52 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:Man poke snake, man get bitten!

Yes, but it depends who you think is doing the poking and who might get bitten in the long run, not militarily but diplomatically.

by Fuzzy Zack Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:53 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:Man poke snake, man get bitten!

But the snake was strangling you in the first place

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:54 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:

Death Toll in Gaza since Israeli police and military forces first entered "occupied" Palestinian territory, ostensibly looking for those 3 murdered teen's a couple of weeks back...

Palestinians 240+

Israelis 4 or 5 ?

SAYS it all, really..

The 'Zionists' have forgotten the lessons of the past ~ and become the very monsters that they themselves feared so much previously up until the mid-20th century...

Exactly right. And Didge thinks I'm an extremist for pointing this out. Lol!

Didge clearly believes the Zionist propaganda and no matter what, will find an excuse for the murder of children.

It does beg the question whether you are antisemtic, where you failed to answer my questions, I am not saying you are but asking whether you are, because as seen you as a British Muslim have come on here and speak of the plight of Palestine, ignoring the fact Hamas are an extremist group who commits human rights violations to its own people, this does not seem to concern you in the slightest. What concerns me also with you being a British Muslim, where is the threads from you condemning Isis for example and organizing a protest at the crimes against humanity that they do?

For example today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10977704/Islamic-State-kills-270-in-Syrian-gas-field-massacre.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10977698/Christians-flee-Iraqs-Mosul-after-Islamists-tell-them-convert-pay-or-die.html

I mean considering Muslims are suffering vastly more in these areas you seem very silent on the matter and do not show the same passion and zeal that you do with the conflict in Palestine, which I do find to be very odd to say the least.

I see you have failed to answer my questions again and I have never denied as seen that extremist zionists are a problem in Israel but you ignore Hamas as if they are saints, when as seen they do not warn, and have no care for human life. If they did thy would have built shelters for people, but nothing, they have built tunnels so they can attack Israel. Again I do not want to see any loss of innocent civilians, but twice Hamas has rejected a ceasefire, showing clearly their resolve in this matter to continue this conflict, thus showing no regards for the Palestinians, something you whitewash at every turn. I am concerned if you have become extreme, because for one you do not think Hamas is extreme and two you seem only concerned about protesting against Jews and as seen not countless extremist Muslims who kill countless innocent Muslims daily.

Again, where I differ to you, is I want a more Liberal Government voted in by the Israeli people, I want the Palestinians to rid themselves of Hamas and I want both people to unite through peace. I also do not ignore where Israel has committed war crimes, which Human rights watch can point to four of the attacks being so and rightly condemn this, but by and large Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, where as Hamas does not give one flying fuck, if they did they would provide and built safety measures for the people of Gaza

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:57 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:Also zack are you tellinng people, Israel with some of the most sophisticatic equipment called satellites and drones cannot pinpoint the exact location of missile launches aimed at Israeli cities from the midst of Palestinian schools, mosques, hospitals, homes for the disabled and residential areas?
Behave, it shows how clueless you are to technology it seems or now you claim Israel is lying even though, this is how they exactly know who to phone, because they have such technology in the first place to warn them, unlike Hams.
Tunnels are now bomb shelters, really, is that why militants are in them and not civilians?
Well this is the worry in this country the growing antisemitism being spread and wow and who by of all people.

You're just trying to put words in my mouth to justify the killing of children. You're quite pathetic and a spineless man.

No you are just avoiding the questions as seen, with yet more woeful responses and I do not shy away from saying where something is wrong, you prove again your hatred, showing to me the problem here with this conflict how you have such passionate hate, that is a very real concern, because people disagree with you

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:59 pm

Didge wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

Just the crap to gey me back here...

didge, quill, and one or two others here are the FIRST to demand "evidence" or cite cases or whatever.....

and the moment someone does exactly that they whinge "copy and paste"

YET especially didge, is fond of c&p from some of the most dodgy sources going...such as PETA...the wiorlds most discredited "animal welfare" organisation. Why. he even used a source that was suposedly provided by two individulas , that appeared NOWHERE on the web...except in a long forgotten and dusty lie filled corner of one of PETAs' own pieces...

Lets face it it is nothing but intellectual arrogance, in fact it is intellectual ignorance...a sort of intellectuall boor. The sort you would expect to find comprising menbers of that erstwhile establishment "the bullington club".

In truth 90+% of all university theisies are nothing but copy and paste, very little work done is "original" or "innovative" (or we would be up to our nuts in "inovation"...) but it is in reality more often than not a "pulling together" of other peoples work (out of which sometimes, something new may be derived). The purpose of university theiesis is of course to prove that the candidate is capable of research....

As to the point of this thread, in refusing to condemn the massive overrecation and massive disproportionality of the israeli response, Didge is actually saying the I would be well within my rights to throw boiling oil on burglar, who was armed with only a stick.....or that I was within my rights to beat an unarmed burglar to death with my bare fists.....

Hilalrious and what a child, no I write most of my own responses unlike Stassi who has to copy every other article and post them onto this forum and now we see you are a secret Muslim extremist supporter, which just about sums you up really. In fact if you were clever enough to read which clearly you have failed to do so, I actually want peace an for lasting peace which means for both sides to reconcile, but hen you always were so angry on just about any thing where I constancy show you up, that you fail to understand anything. Sorry an over reaction you say and you now compare rockets to eggs, what sort of fucked up twisted sicko are you? Yes go please tell the Israeli people who have to run to bomb shelters they are being targeted with eggs by an extremist group who has since had two offers of a cease fire and in both cases refused them, a group that places military hardware within civilian areas, because it actually wants civilian casualties to garner support, how it has never built any bomb shelters, even though they get plenty of money, how itadvises people to stay and die in attacks which they have ensure will happen, even though Israel warns of attacks, but they tell people to stay put because they need people to die to use this to gain support.

Is Israel over reacting, well when you learn that someone is intent on your destruction and as a people some fuckwit actually tried this before, then maybe you too might be very apprehensive over anyone that is and has stated they wish to wipe you from exsistance, but then you always agreed with Stassi, even when she supports Islamic terrorists, failing to understand anything. The ball is in Hamas' court they decide and wish death for Palestine and have lost much support which is why they started this and for you to compare rockets to eggs shows how fare you have lost your marbles in your old age. So basically you never came back to debate, just to come out with the same lame poor attacks onto poster who always make you look a right dick that you are

love your straw man attempt didge....

dont wash

PROVE ...

that I support extremist actions from either side

AND

that I compared rockets to eggs

I think you will find neither is the case, but of course when challenged your immediate reaction is a case of girly hysterics....wrong time of the month again didge? suffering mad cow disease...again????

the fact is that israels rsponse IS OTT......and massively so

and notghing ...not even "mistake" justifies the shelling of what were CLEARLY children on that beach

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:02 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:

Hilalrious and what a child, no I write most of my own responses unlike Stassi who has to copy every other article and post them onto this forum and now we see you are a secret Muslim extremist supporter, which just about sums you up really. In fact if you were clever enough to read which clearly you have failed to do so, I actually want peace an for lasting peace which means for both sides to reconcile, but hen you always were so angry on just about any thing where I constancy show you up, that you fail to understand anything. Sorry an over reaction you say and you now compare rockets to eggs, what sort of fucked up twisted sicko are you? Yes go please tell the Israeli people who have to run to bomb shelters they are being targeted with eggs by an extremist group who has since had two offers of a cease fire and in both cases refused them, a group that places military hardware within civilian areas, because it actually wants civilian casualties to garner support, how it has never built any bomb shelters, even though they get plenty of money, how itadvises people to stay and die in attacks which they have ensure will happen, even though Israel warns of attacks, but they tell people to stay put because they need people to die to use this to gain support.

Is Israel over reacting, well when you learn that someone is intent on your destruction and as a people some fuckwit actually tried this before, then maybe you too might be very apprehensive over anyone that is and has stated they wish to wipe you from exsistance, but then you always agreed with Stassi, even when she supports Islamic terrorists, failing to understand anything. The ball is in Hamas' court they decide and wish death for Palestine and have lost much support which is why they started this and for you to compare rockets to eggs shows how fare you have lost your marbles in your old age. So basically you never came back to debate, just to come out with the same lame poor attacks onto poster who always make you look a right dick that you are

love your straw man attempt didge....

dont wash

PROVE ...

that I support extremist actions from either side

AND

that I compared rockets to eggs

I think you will find neither is the case, but of course when challenged your immediate reaction is a case of girly hysterics....wrong time of the month again didge? suffering mad cow disease...again????

the fact is that israels rsponse IS OTT......and massively so

and notghing ...not even "mistake" justifies the shelling of what were CLEARLY children on that beach

Well to me that is how you are making a low point of rockets to then even make the absurd claim of a person breaking into your house as if you are being directly attacked with a burglary as if that is the same as Hamas attacking Israel with rockets. That is not even a comparison, for you then to use lunacy to say you would be justified to murder him, when he never attacked you. Hamas has attacked Israel, showing how clueless you are. The eggs was my emphasis to your daft points.
Quill also made you look extremely stupid as well how you back stassi

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYmB38n1Y6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCIckbZKUs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeGYAfh9A1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHC8KC5cLs8

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:57 pm

Stop spamming, who gives a fuck what Pat Condell says, he's a big mouth no nothing.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Sassy wrote:Stop spamming, who gives a fuck what Pat Condell says, he's a big mouth no nothing.

I think he'll go down as one of the great philosophers of our time - he's up there with Socrates, Epicurus, Plato and Farage.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:01 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
Sassy wrote:Stop spamming, who gives a fuck what Pat Condell says, he's a big mouth no nothing.

I think he'll go down as one of the great philosophers of our time - he's up there with Socrates, Epicurus, Plato and Farage.

No he will go down as a far right racist twat!

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:09 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
Sassy wrote:Stop spamming, who gives a fuck what Pat Condell says, he's a big mouth no nothing.

I think he'll go down as one of the great philosophers of our time - he's up there with Socrates, Epicurus, Plato and Farage.

Now that has to be a joke.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:12 pm

He tells it how it is.....

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:He tells it how it is.....

No he tries to incite hate, that is not telling it how it is, that is making others like he does hate!

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:He tells it how it is.....

Only if you are stupid enough to be manipulated by him would you believe that.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:15 pm

Sassy wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:

I think he'll go down as one of the great philosophers of our time - he's up there with Socrates, Epicurus, Plato and Farage.

Now that has to be a joke.

Is she right?

She's not wrong!

Razz

Yeah - i threw Plato in for a laugh! Neutral

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:25 pm

Sassy wrote:But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

When Israel faces down Iran, all will be well. I give odds to Israel, 5-2. In any event, the showdown is inevitable.

1,284 missiles? Do you think someone lobbed 1,284 missiles into Germany before WWII? Only if you do, can you make Germany the victim...akin to Palestinian Gaza. Hamas is the fly in the ointment. Hamas is the abuser of peace.

Hamas is doing nothing whatsoever to protect the Palestinians. What do you think? That these missiles are defensive weapons? Is that what you think? They are provocative, offensive weapons and they only serve Iran. And believe me, Iran cares nothing about the suffering of Palestinian children.

I think it is rather obvious the game that is being played. Iran is reaching for the sympathy vote by touting the victim count, while in fact causing the carnage

through the provocation of missile strikes. Iran thinks its own hand (Hamas) is invisible. People world-wide are not falling for it. Mainly because they are not that stupid.

The most humanitarian thing that can be done is an Israeli invasion, taking Hamas out, and restoring Gaza to a peaceful, civilized existence.

Either that is bullshite, or the Palestinians are incredibly bad at making their case. He completely avoids the essential question: What? For what are the missiles being tossed? In any event, lobbing missiles is a stupid way to make a point…it isn’t even your point.

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

So Quill, these are your little bon motes in reply to the OP. And you think that means you understand what was being said. What they actually showed is that you have no understanding of the situation, but keep repeating your daily mantra, Hamas is Iran, Iran is Hamas. At no time to you ever bring yourself to realize that people in different regions of the Middle East are not one amalgamated mass, all thinking the same, all believing the same. And that was the point of the OP, The people of Gaza are as diverse as people anywhere in the world.

"Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies."

Hamas was voted in and represents these diverse people and, as in any diverse society, you have people who voted for them and people that didn't. However all of them, including the people that didn't, are united in their resistance to Israel stealing their land AGAIN and trying to wipe them out.

Let's take your first post:

But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Responding in kind? That's if you take out of the equation the fact that Israel do not just subject Gaza to military force, they subject every day, with their checkpoints and their embargo, and their removal of of Palestinians from their legally owned land and the bulldozing of their houses, the way they control the fuel of the supply of electricity, so that electrical outrages are the norm in Gaza, every single day, the water situation which they will not allow to be alleviated and with the bombing are making worse and all the other thousand and one things that are never reported in the Western press. The fact that the Gazan are living in a prison of Israel's making. Lobbing rockets that they know will very rarely reach any targets because of the money America has poured into Israel, so that they have the technical abilities to stop those rockets is not exactly a level playing field.

Israel makes life in Gaza desperate every single day in so many ways, and you think that when Gaza fires rockets because of that, the Israel bombardment is 'responding in kind'.

Now lets go to your second statement, the most ludicrous one of the lot:

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

By humanitarian way, do you mean bulldozing houses? Do you mean illegally taking land? Do you mean shooting farmers in their fields because they fields are near the border? Do you mean beating up a Palestinian boy and then backtracking like mad when they discover he is American? Do you mean beating up an American Jewish boy because he dared to tell Israeli extremists what they were doing is wrong? Do you mean threatening to burn down churches? Do you mean beating Rabbi's who tell them that taking Palestinian land is wrong? Is that your view of humanitarian?

Now another:

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

Well no, actually Israel had occupied Gaza illegally and Sharon could see, even he, a total hawk, could see that it was not only wrong but that Israel would then have in their midst people who's land they had taken and who would always resent them. But then, while returning it to it's rightful owners, Israel, because Sharon was now in a coma, proceeded to subject the people to the equivalent of mass torture every day, which made them resent Israel just as much and strengthened their resolve never to give up. And now the people who didn't want Sharon to give it back, the Likud Party and the most extreme of them all, Netanyahu are now in control and doing what they wanted to do then, on a pretext drummed up by the leader of Mossad.

Now it has emerged that the head of the Israeli Mossad actually “called” the kidnapping a week in advance!

Israeli newspaper, Haaretz just reported: Mossad chief’s chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy.

Kevin Barrett, Veterans Today Editor in his article titled “Smoking gun proof of “Israeli teen kidnapping” false flag” writes Mossad Chief predicted “three teens will be kidnapped” one week before it happened.

I'm not going to give you the link, its in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, find it for yourself for once.

And:

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

Palestinians are not bad at making their case, their case doesn't need making, it is recognised all over the world, hence so many of the world condemns Israel. What Palestine hasn't got to make it's case is the influence of Israel, so that there is virtually no media that actually gives an even handed view, and like the CNN journalist who does actually tell it like it is, she is 'moved on' lest the truth hurts the delicate ears of America. Israel has no reason of justification of rationale, it has what is was given and twice as much more, they just go from I want to I will take, and boy have they taken.

And finally, to the whole point of the article, that you have not only missed by a mile, but simply haven't recognised.

"Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea."

And the whole diversity of Gaza, be they supporter or non supporter of Hamas, be they doctor, poet, engineer or road sweeper, all know that and will resist Israel to the last.

And I will say that, I rather resent the fact that because you had no understanding of the OP, I had to be as longwinded as you are, when I prefer to be concise and to the point.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:03 pm

Didge wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:He tells it how it is.....
No he tries to incite hate, that is not telling it how it is, that is making others like he does hate!

Telling the truth is not inciting hate.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Didge wrote:
No he tries to incite hate, that is not telling it how it is, that is making others like he does hate!

Telling the truth is not inciting hate.

You claim he tells the truth, which is your opinion, making people look at a religious group of people as a whole to shows disdain towards them and as a threat is not only hate, but inciting hate, just as any Islamic extremist does.
He is just a sad racist bag of shite, that likes the sound of his own voice

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:13 pm

Sassy, it is the Arabs who want to wipe Israel off the map.... you have it the wrong way round.
As I've already said, Sharon gave up Gaza to the Palestinians in 2005 and Hamas quickly took over, killing fellow Palestinians to gain control and then Gaza became a launch pad for more missiles.
They fire missiles at civilians while hidind behind their own civilians who they obviously don't really care too much about by doing this and putting them in the firing line by Israeli response fire.
It is part of Hamas charter to kill all Jews, look it up, Google "Hamas charter kill Jews"....
Why is it some people who quite rightly criticise Hitler and Nazis and condemn the holocaust but readily give support for another group with an exact same intention to kill all Jews???

by SEXY MAMA Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:16 pm

Tommy no it isnt.

The Israel MP has even said they want to wipe out Palestine.

How much more TRUTH do you want?

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:25 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Tommy no it isnt.
The Israel MP has even said they want to wipe out Palestine.
How much more TRUTH do you want?

That was one far right MP and is not what she said and that was only a couple of days ago.

The Muslims have been saying they want to wipe Israel off the map for decades!!!!!

It is in Hamas charter to kill all Jews. And that was created in 1987.....

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:26 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Tommy no it isnt.

The Israel MP has even said they want to wipe out Palestine.

How much more TRUTH do you want?

That is one person and an extremist who should not be in office, anyone including any Hamas official of which there ha been many have said the same.
Look providing examples of views of select people achieves nothing and does nothing to stop any conflict even more so when people outside this conflict weigh in casting blame and in fact further adding tot he problems.
If people want peace there, then to start this they should look to find people on both sides that also want peace and grow upon this belief where it grows to the extent that the vast majority wants this. Where the hate is driven away, where people on both sides can be reconciled.

That is the way forward, no claims to lands, no who has done what, but people joining together on both sides wanting peace, wanting each other to have a right to a life of coexistence, where they can both live in peace and harmony.

Yes it will take much work, but that is the better way forward than having people cast hate from both sides, as seen already that has not worked and many people have suffered

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:49 pm

See SM is being very selective about the 'truth'....

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:51 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:See SM is being very selective about the 'truth'....

No she isn't, you are deaf, dumb and blind to what is happening.

by Guest Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:53 pm

Sassy wrote:But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

When Israel faces down Iran, all will be well. I give odds to Israel, 5-2. In any event, the showdown is inevitable.

1,284 missiles? Do you think someone lobbed 1,284 missiles into Germany before WWII? Only if you do, can you make Germany the victim...akin to Palestinian Gaza. Hamas is the fly in the ointment. Hamas is the abuser of peace.

Hamas is doing nothing whatsoever to protect the Palestinians. What do you think? That these missiles are defensive weapons? Is that what you think? They are provocative, offensive weapons and they only serve Iran. And believe me, Iran cares nothing about the suffering of Palestinian children.

I think it is rather obvious the game that is being played. Iran is reaching for the sympathy vote by touting the victim count, while in fact causing the carnage

through the provocation of missile strikes. Iran thinks its own hand (Hamas) is invisible. People world-wide are not falling for it. Mainly because they are not that stupid.

The most humanitarian thing that can be done is an Israeli invasion, taking Hamas out, and restoring Gaza to a peaceful, civilized existence.

Either that is bullshite, or the Palestinians are incredibly bad at making their case. He completely avoids the essential question: What? For what are the missiles being tossed? In any event, lobbing missiles is a stupid way to make a point…it isn’t even your point.

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

So Quill, these are your little bon motes in reply to the OP. And you think that means you understand what was being said. What they actually showed is that you have no understanding of the situation, but keep repeating your daily mantra, Hamas is Iran, Iran is Hamas. At no time to you ever bring yourself to realize that people in different regions of the Middle East are not one amalgamated mass, all thinking the same, all believing the same. And that was the point of the OP, The people of Gaza are as diverse as people anywhere in the world.

"Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies."

Hamas was voted in and represents these diverse people and, as in any diverse society, you have people who voted for them and people that didn't. However all of them, including the people that didn't, are united in their resistance to Israel stealing their land AGAIN and trying to wipe them out.

Let's take your first post:

But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind. Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Responding in kind? That's if you take out of the equation the fact that Israel do not just subject Gaza to military force, they subject every day, with their checkpoints and their embargo, and their removal of of Palestinians from their legally owned land and the bulldozing of their houses, the way they control the fuel of the supply of electricity, so that electrical outrages are the norm in Gaza, every single day, the water situation which they will not allow to be alleviated and with the bombing are making worse and all the other thousand and one things that are never reported in the Western press. The fact that the Gazan are living in a prison of Israel's making. Lobbing rockets that they know will very rarely reach any targets because of the money America has poured into Israel, so that they have the technical abilities to stop those rockets is not exactly a level playing field.

Israel makes life in Gaza desperate every single day in so many ways, and you think that when Gaza fires rockets because of that, the Israel bombardment is 'responding in kind'.

Now lets go to your second statement, the most ludicrous one of the lot:

Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

By humanitarian way, do you mean bulldozing houses? Do you mean illegally taking land? Do you mean shooting farmers in their fields because they fields are near the border? Do you mean beating up a Palestinian boy and then backtracking like mad when they discover he is American? Do you mean beating up an American Jewish boy because he dared to tell Israeli extremists what they were doing is wrong? Do you mean threatening to burn down churches? Do you mean beating Rabbi's who tell them that taking Palestinian land is wrong? Is that your view of humanitarian?

Now another:

Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

Well no, actually Israel had occupied Gaza illegally and Sharon could see, even he, a total hawk, could see that it was not only wrong but that Israel would then have in their midst people who's land they had taken and who would always resent them. But then, while returning it to it's rightful owners, Israel, because Sharon was now in a coma, proceeded to subject the people to the equivalent of mass torture every day, which made them resent Israel just as much and strengthened their resolve never to give up. And now the people who didn't want Sharon to give it back, the Likud Party and the most extreme of them all, Netanyahu are now in control and doing what they wanted to do then, on a pretext drummed up by the leader of Mossad.

Now it has emerged that the head of the Israeli Mossad actually “called” the kidnapping a week in advance!

Israeli newspaper, Haaretz just reported: Mossad chief’s chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy.

Kevin Barrett, Veterans Today Editor in his article titled “Smoking gun proof of “Israeli teen kidnapping” false flag” writes Mossad Chief predicted “three teens will be kidnapped” one week before it happened.

I'm not going to give you the link, its in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, find it for yourself for once.

And:

This is where Palestinians fail so miserably. They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case. Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale. They just go from I want, to I will take.

Palestinians are not bad at making their case, their case doesn't need making, it is recognised all over the world, hence so many of the world condemns Israel. What Palestine hasn't got to make it's case is the influence of Israel, so that there is virtually no media that actually gives an even handed view, and like the CNN journalist who does actually tell it like it is, she is 'moved on' lest the truth hurts the delicate ears of America. Israel has no reason of justification of rationale, it has what is was given and twice as much more, they just go from I want to I will take, and boy have they taken.

And finally, to the whole point of the article, that you have not only missed by a mile, but simply haven't recognised.

"Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea."

And the whole diversity of Gaza, be they supporter or non supporter of Hamas, be they doctor, poet, engineer or road sweeper, all know that and will resist Israel to the last.

And I will say that, I rather resent the fact that because you had no understanding of the OP, I had to be as longwinded as you are, when I prefer to be concise and to the point.

Seems Quill has is doing his normal cut and run when challenged.

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