Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

Palestinians as a diverse society are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation.

In much of the North American and western European media reporting on the current Israeli carnage of Palestinians, a common refrain is that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards Israel. Given the sophisticated defence system Israel possesses, courtesy of US taxpayers, none of these rockets hit any targets and fortunately no Israeli man, woman, or child has lost any life or limb because of them. This fact has scarcely bothered BBC, CNN, or any other shamelessly pro-Israeli outlet that always seeks to "balance" their reporting on Gaza by mentioning the fact that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards the Jewish state.

In one particularly nefarious example, Diane Sawyer of ABC showed a picture of Palestinians enduring Israeli bombing but told her American audience these were the pictures of Israelis under attack by Hamas rockets.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that Hamas does shoot some rockets towards Israel, and though these rockets scarcely harm anyone does not diminish their intent, which is to hit somewhere or harm someone. So the Hamas operation intends to harm people but they cannot do as they wish for their military wherewithal is not outsourced to the United States.

Thanks to AIPAC and other Israeli lobbies and pro-Israeli billionaires, among them those who encourage US President Barack Obama to nuke Iran on behalf of Israel, Israel enjoys a special relationship with the most deadly military machinery on the planet and partakes in that deadly force at will. Hamas in this regard has lost the bid to its Israeli counterparts and any outside military help they might receive is from countries like Iran that can hardly be compared to that gargantuan deadly machine called the US.

Erratic rockets

Useless as they are, why is Hamas firing these erratic rockets, and why would they not stop them anyway? Why bother? They are hardly any match for the Israeli army. After all, Hamas is David and Israel is Goliath in this contest. Wouldn't Palestinians be better off without Hamas trying to defend them in Gaza?

Here we need to ask the question in a slightly larger context. Is Hamas not a legitimate Palestinian organisation, with enough grassroots support that it won a major parliamentary election in Gaza back in 2006? I have known, and I still know, many Palestinians who do not like Hamas, disagree with their ideology, and oppose their ways. But these Palestinians of diverse political opinions are as much part of the Palestinian resistance to occupation and theft of their homeland as Hamas is.

Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies.

By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience. Resistance for Palestinians is definitive of who and what they are. They might be a poet like Mahmoud Darwish, a novelist like Ghassan Kanafani, a film-maker like Michel Khleifi, an artist like Mona Hatoum, a feminist like Lila Abu Lughod - but in doing what they do, whatever they do, they oppose and defy the armed robbery of their homeland.

But there are also those Palestinians who have taken arms and opposed villainy by violence. As part of this resistance, Hamas is integral to the Palestinian national liberation movement, but like any other forms of resistance, Hamas is not definitive to Palestine.

Israeli propaganda machinery

What the Israeli propaganda machinery does is to reduce the entirety of Palestine, the rich and diversified tapestry of Palestinian resistance, to Hamas, then demonise Hamas. The strategy works, especially aided and abetted by major state-sponsored or corporate media like BBC, ABC, or CNN. Execute this strategy, and go on a rampage against Palestinians, maim and murder them with impunity.

Now for the sake of argument: Suppose we wake up tomorrow morning and there is no Hamas to shoot off any useless rockets towards Israel. Then what? The magnificent Israeli benevolence will move into operation and return the stolen Palestine to their rightful owners? Of course not. Suppose Hamas did not even exist since its founding in 1987. Then what? Israel would have by now returned Palestine to its rightful owners? Of course not.

Palestinians are varied and Palestinians are entirely entitled to resist and oppose the occupation and theft of their homeland by any means they deem necessary - whether it is by a beautiful song by Muhammad Assaf, a magnificent poem by Mahmoud Darwish, a film by Elia Suleiman, a novel by Ghassan Kanafani, a book on Palestinian costumes by Widad Kawar, or another on Palestinian cuisine by Rawia Bishara or by the militant Marxist organisation PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine), or indeed through the Islamist ideology of Hamas.

One may not agree with Hamas, may not join them, but one cannot reduce the entire tapestry of Palestinian resistance to Hamas, or tell Hamas to disband, for Israelis are about to return Palestine to its rightful owners.

So the bogus proposition that Hamas provokes Israel to attack Gaza is not only narratively false because Israeli military operations in Palestine always predate any Hamas operation, but also because Palestinians in their entirety are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation in whatever form they deem necessary. Dividing these forms of resistance into "moderate" and "militant" will also lead nowhere but the pestiferous Washington think tanks.

A film by Annemarie Jacir, an art installation by Emily Jacir, a poem by Rafeef Ziadah or Dana Dajani, or a moving song by Rim Banna is infinitely more radical than any flimsy rocket that Hamas might fire. The Israeli propaganda machinery does not want the world to know these radically defiant forms of Palestinian resistance that have grabbed Zionism by the throat for generations and do not allow it to swallow Palestine. But they magnify Hamas as the face of Palestine.

Military atrocities

In a future free and democratic Palestine, who knows how many votes Hamas would garner in a given election. But we are nowhere near that moment yet - and Israel and its criminal military atrocities are the principle obstacle why we are nowhere near that point. Until then, Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist the robbery of their homeland by any means they deem necessary, including, but never limited to, Hamas.

Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea.

Zionism as a murderous machinery of colonial conquest will not stop until the very last inch of Palestine is taken - and yet the Palestinians persist in their homeland, resist occupation, procreate, sing, dance, compose music and poetry, make films, stage drama, organise acts of civil disobedience, mobilise for BDS ... and yes, of course, some of them also pick up a few flimsy arms against the most sophisticated armed robbery of a homeland in history.

Hamid Dabashi is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/hamas-provoke-israel-attack-201471512246535512.html

That sums it up exactly.

If Hammas disappeared tomorrow Israel would not stop until it had all of Palestine.

Excellent post.

Hanan Ashrawi has been very quite of late. A very sound and erudite spokeswoman. Maybe the violent wing of Hamas has taken over.

Bout time she took to the airwaves.

The world listens to her.

As the Palestinians said, where are they supposed to go to, it is already densely populated and nowhere is safe.   Wasn't much point warning the disabled home them bombed and killed the patients, or the UN school that they had told people to take shelter in, or the children on the beach, nowhere near any targets.

If Hamas left tomorrow, it would not stop Israel until they have stolen all of Palestine.

As seen the Palestinians in Hamas have no leg to stand on when they fire rockets into Israel, as they do not warn and thus are crimes against humanity. This shows more than anything Hamas needs to come to their senses and stop of which they will not of course because Hamas wants as many civillians to die as possible to gain PR. This is obvious when they tell civilians not to leave their homes even after they have been warned, which as seen is legal by Israel. So the onus is very much on Hamas creating so many problems. Which they are not going to solve through conflict. As seen they have legal rights with arrests, settlements etc, but not as seen with conflicts. Hamas is happy to allow people to die to further its cause at the expense of innocent people, that is wrong on every level

   "The Puzzler" actually declared earlier today that moi, Sexy M., Catman_Phil, and Didge apparently (no doubt sassy, Ben, gerbil, Handy Andy, scrat, Fuzzy and veya will be next ?) are responsible for all of these attacks against Israel...

According to "Puzzler" it's all you wicked people with this chattering on here, (basically, it seems to be anyone who was opposed to smelly's efforts from yesterday; as well as for previously making any comments contrary to the smelly'/Puzzler agenda !)  that are inevitably responsible..

"The Puzzler" than outdid himself by declaring that I'm a complete and utter disgrace ~ to whom, I'm not sure, nor do I care all that much anymore ~ but no doubt it's some club of rancid little weaseling brain-dead RW teenage wannabe trolls. Those pathetic little nongs wouldn't know their arses from their elbows, unless their chums are there to collectively point them out !    

ello wolf, still waiting to see post where I called you a commie, bet I have to wait a long long time. LIAR.

Didge wrote:As seen the Palestinians in Hamas have no leg to stand on when they fire rockets into Israel, as they do not warn and thus are crimes against humanity. This shows more than anything Hamas needs to come to their senses and stop of which they will not of course because Hamas wants as many civillians to die as possible to gain PR. This is obvious when they tell civilians not to leave their homes even after they have been warned, which as seen is legal by Israel. So the onus is very much on Hamas creating so many problems. Which they are not going to solve through conflict. As seen they have legal rights with arrests, settlements etc, but not as seen with conflicts. Hamas is happy to allow people to die to further its cause at the expense of innocent people, that is wrong on every level

If Hamas didn't exist, Isreal would still do the same things. And civilians can't leave their homes, they have nowhere to go to. Israel told them to go the the UN schools, they then bombed a UN school. You're a fool and can't see the nose in front of your face. Israel is the aggressor, Israel is thieving the land, Israel does the embargo, Israel kills farmers in their fields, Isreal bulldozes legal owned Palestinian houses, Israel stops free movement of people in their own land, Israel drops white phosphorus on civilians, Israel stops them getting enough water, Israel stops them fishing in their own seas, Israel leaves women at checkpoints to have their babies in the dirt and laughs at them, Israel holds on men in ambulances having heart attacks until they die, Israel shoots 4 year old children buying sweets, Israel beats up a Palestinian American who was only rescued because he was American, Israel beats up an American Israeli because he dared to say what they were doing was wrong, Israel runs a digger over an American aid worker and squashes her until her guts are spread on the ground, Israel daubs churches with grafitti saying it is going to burn them down. Do you think Hamas makes them do that as well.

neither side is good in this, I generally don't like commenting on this because I don't really like either side. I understand both point of views but I still don't like either of them and this is conflict is part of my dislike for monotheism, The idea that there is only one God make you unaccepting of others because you cant like a polytheist just go 'oh well, there are different gods of there' and as this conflict shows you cant even get along with other monotheists.... ( I know some can but the ones that take things too literally)

ANYWAY
at this point I think Palestinians should migrate they have so little land left and they are not going to win a military engagement with Israel now.

I don't condemn Hamas as strongly as didge but I do agree for the good of their people they should be seeking another solution... firing rockets is not doing squat

veya_victaous wrote:neither side is good in this, I generally don't like commenting on this because I don't really like either side. I understand both point of views but I still don't like either of them and this is conflict is part of my dislike for monotheism, The idea that there is only one God make you unaccepting of others because you cant like a polytheist just go 'oh well, there are different gods of there' and as this conflict shows you cant even get along with other monotheists.... ( I know some can but the ones that take things too literally)

ANYWAY
at this point I think Palestinians should migrate they have so little land left and they are not going to win a military engagement with Israel now.

I don't condemn Hamas as strongly as didge but I do agree for the good of their people they should be seeking another solution... firing rockets is not doing squat

So they should just give up and seek refuge in another country?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but i would rather die defending my country then runaway.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:neither side is good in this, I generally don't like commenting on this because I don't really like either side. I understand both point of views but I still don't like either of them and this is conflict is part of my dislike for monotheism, The idea that there is only one God make you unaccepting of others because you cant like a polytheist just go 'oh well, there are different gods of there' and as this conflict shows you cant even get along with other monotheists.... ( I know some can but the ones that take things too literally)

ANYWAY
at this point I think Palestinians should migrate they have so little land left and they are not going to win a military engagement with Israel now.

I don't condemn Hamas as strongly as didge but I do agree for the good of their people they should be seeking another solution... firing rockets is not doing squat

So they should just give up and seek refuge in another country?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but i would rather die defending my country then runaway.

Hi SM

They have nowhere to go. Their lands have been taken bit by bit by settlers who refuse to stop building. Why are the building areas not condemned by the west ? Because US will not upset Israel for fear of loosing votes at home. So Gaza is raised to the ground once again and more bricks laid

Sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:As seen the Palestinians in Hamas have no leg to stand on when they fire rockets into Israel, as they do not warn and thus are crimes against humanity. This shows more than anything Hamas needs to come to their senses and stop of which they will not of course because Hamas wants as many civillians to die as possible to gain PR. This is obvious when they tell civilians not to leave their homes even after they have been warned, which as seen is legal by Israel. So the onus is very much on Hamas creating so many problems. Which they are not going to solve through conflict. As seen they have legal rights with arrests, settlements etc, but not as seen with conflicts. Hamas is happy to allow people to die to further its cause at the expense of innocent people, that is wrong on every level

If Hamas didn't exist, Isreal would still do the same things.   And civilians can't leave their homes, they have nowhere to go to.   Israel told them to go the the UN schools, they then bombed a UN school.   You're a fool and can't see the nose in front of your face.   Israel is the aggressor, Israel is thieving the land, Israel does the embargo, Israel kills farmers in their fields, Isreal bulldozes legal owned Palestinian houses, Israel stops free movement of people in their own land, Israel drops white phosphorus on civilians, Israel stops them getting enough water, Israel stops them fishing in their own seas, Israel leaves women at checkpoints to have their babies in the dirt and laughs at them, Israel holds on men in ambulances having heart attacks until they die, Israel shoots 4 year old children buying sweets, Israel beats up a Palestinian American who was only rescued because he was American, Israel beats up an American Israeli because he dared to say what they were doing was wrong, Israel runs a digger over an American aid worker and squashes her until her guts are spread on the ground, Israel daubs churches with grafitti saying it is going to burn them down.   Do you think Hamas makes them do that as well.

Incorrect, Hamas did not once exist and the fact is Israel has repeatedly responded to aggression from Palestinians since the 19th century, with of course extremist zionists being the same, to make claims based on Israel that you have are absurd. Israel could have wiped Palestine off the face of the map 1000 times over if they wished to and if they wanted to have the land and oust the Palestinians they could easily do so, but this is not the case and has never been the case, it is poor arguments from the left that always make absurd views based off the extremist Zionist views. That is as bad when people make a view onto Islam and Muslims based off extremist views. As to Israel not caring is that why the do this?







Palestinians continue to receive medical care in Israel[/b][/b][/size][/td]
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[size=13]Meital Yisor Beit-Or Gazan newborn Abdul Rahman Wahdan received surgery in Israel for a serious heart defect 

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http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=18829


That is not a people who hate them and like my signature the problem comes from those on both sides who do hate, which you have always failed to see! peace can only come when people on both sides unite, because Israel is never going to concede its land and Settlements and Hamas is not going to stop wanting ti wipe Israel out and keep using its civilians as cannon fodder to generate sympathy. You may think that is harsh, but that is exactly how little the Hamas military wing care about its own people. Decades of the same arguments and problems have resolved nothing, that is why it is now down to the people of both nations to resolve this by uniting

SEXY MAMA wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:neither side is good in this, I generally don't like commenting on this because I don't really like either side. I understand both point of views but I still don't like either of them and this is conflict is part of my dislike for monotheism, The idea that there is only one God make you unaccepting of others because you cant like a polytheist just go 'oh well, there are different gods of there' and as this conflict shows you cant even get along with other monotheists.... ( I know some can but the ones that take things too literally)

ANYWAY
at this point I think Palestinians should migrate they have so little land left and they are not going to win a military engagement with Israel now.

I don't condemn Hamas as strongly as didge but I do agree for the good of their people they should be seeking another solution... firing rockets is not doing squat

So they should just give up and seek refuge in another country?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but i would rather die defending my country then runaway.

Hamas Should negotiate the Option for civilians to...
I know it sucks and I probably would prefer to die too, But they should not be making the decision unilaterally for all the people...
I would like the children to leave    

I Do sympathies with Hamas due to a natural inclination towards the under dog.
BUT they have lost..... leaders need to accept that.... and at least try and give the people a chance to survive.   

Adding to my Post...
Palestinians Should do what ever the heart tells them (I'm not going to tell them not to fight for their homes   )
Hamas needs to consider the burdens of leadership and the good of their people.

veya_victaous wrote:Adding to my Post...
Palestinians Should do what ever the heart tells them (I'm not going to tell them not to fight for their homes   )
Hamas needs to consider the burdens of leadership and the good of their people.

Yes if only the Women and Children had a safe place to be in!

veya_victaous wrote:Adding to my Post...
Palestinians Should do what ever the heart tells them (I'm not going to tell them not to fight for their homes   )
Hamas needs to consider the burdens of leadership and the good of their people.

The problem there is I honestly don't think Hamas are interested in the well being of 'their people' (as in Palestinians in Gaza). They just want to see Israel burn.

Sass is probably right however regardless; with or without Hamas, Israel will abuse the Palestinian people and continue stealing their land, Hamas just gives them a handy excuse to be as brutal as their like in 'retaliation'.

These two problems, which basically boil down to Abrahamic religious idiocy and 'divine right', are why there is never going to be a permanent solution to this problem that doesn't involve one side completely ceding everything to the other.

It would be safe if they stopped firing their missiles....


Israel wants peace, the Arabs don't.



Hamas are firing missiles at innocent civilians and also hiding behind their own civilians.


This is a double was crime.

Eilzel wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Adding to my Post...
Palestinians Should do what ever the heart tells them (I'm not going to tell them not to fight for their homes   )
Hamas needs to consider the burdens of leadership and the good of their people.

The problem there is I honestly don't think Hamas are interested in the well being of 'their people' (as in Palestinians in Gaza). They just want to see Israel burn.

Sass is probably right however regardless; with or without Hamas, Israel will abuse the Palestinian people and continue stealing their land, Hamas just gives them a handy excuse to be as brutal as their like in 'retaliation'.

These two problems, which basically boil down to Abrahamic religious idiocy and 'divine right', are why there is never going to be a permanent solution to this problem that doesn't involve one side completely ceding everything to the other.

I think it can be solved another way, where people on both sides have had enough Eilzel and seek to have peace of which we have seen happen before in history. Before this conflict started Hamas has already lost much of its support with the Muslim Brotherhood being expelled in Egypt and within Palestine itself. To me there will be hope if both Hamas are overthrown and Israeli's start voting in more Liberal Politicians. To me Hamas were looking for this conflict to happen, due to its support falling.

Tommy Monk wrote:It would be safe if they stopped firing their missiles....


Israel wants peace, the Arabs don't.



Hamas are firing missiles at innocent civilians and also hiding behind their own civilians.


This is a double was crime.

lol what is a "was" crime, something from Tiswas?
I thought that finished years ago?

Back again I see dodge...!?


That's the third ID in a week!!!!







And of course my post should have read 'double war crime'.

Lone Wolf wrote:   "The Puzzler" actually declared earlier today that moi, Sexy M., Catman_Phil, and Didge apparently (no doubt sassy, Ben, gerbil, Handy Andy, scrat, Fuzzy and veya will be next ?) are responsible for all of these attacks against Israel...

According to "Puzzler" it's all you wicked people with this chattering on here, (basically, it seems to be anyone who was opposed to smelly's efforts from yesterday; as well as for previously making any comments contrary to the smelly'/Puzzler agenda !)  that are inevitably responsible..

"The Puzzler" than outdid himself by declaring that I'm a complete and utter disgrace ~ to whom, I'm not sure, nor do I care all that much anymore ~ but no doubt it's some club of rancid little weaseling brain-dead RW teenage wannabe trolls. Those pathetic little nongs wouldn't know their arses from their elbows, unless their chums are there to collectively point them out !    

No I didn't, you natural born liar. Anyone can see that I didn't make such a post, are you trying to make yourself look even more ridiculous now?

Tommy Monk wrote:
Back again I see dodge...!?


That's the third ID in a week!!!!







And of course my post should have read 'double war crime'.

yeah I am trying to make it more interesting than BB lol

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

The problem there is I honestly don't think Hamas are interested in the well being of 'their people' (as in Palestinians in Gaza). They just want to see Israel burn.

Sass is probably right however regardless; with or without Hamas, Israel will abuse the Palestinian people and continue stealing their land, Hamas just gives them a handy excuse to be as brutal as their like in 'retaliation'.

These two problems, which basically boil down to Abrahamic religious idiocy and 'divine right', are why there is never going to be a permanent solution to this problem that doesn't involve one side completely ceding everything to the other.

I think it can be solved another way, where people on both sides have had enough Eilzel and seek to have peace of which we have seen happen before in history. Before this conflict started Hamas has already lost much of its support with the Muslim Brotherhood being expelled in Egypt and within Palestine itself. To me there will be hope if both Hamas are overthrown and Israeli's start voting in more Liberal Politicians. To me Hamas were looking for this conflict to happen, due to its support falling.

How long do they want to kill each other for them to have had enough? There will always be some Arabs (in Palestine or outside Palestine) who don't think Israel has a legitimate right to exist. Israel themselves continue building on land not theirs to build on and so push the patience of the United Nations, even when there is no cause given by the Palestinians.

Perhaps you are right that if moderates and liberals on both sides gain power things will change, or (and it sort of goes hand in hand with liberalization) a secularizing of attitudes in the region in general- but let's be realistic, we are decades if not centuries away from that eventuality.

Eilzel wrote:

Didge wrote:


I think it can be solved another way, where people on both sides have had enough Eilzel and seek to have peace of which we have seen happen before in history. Before this conflict started Hamas has already lost much of its support with the Muslim Brotherhood being expelled in Egypt and within Palestine itself. To me there will be hope if both Hamas are overthrown and Israeli's start voting in more Liberal Politicians. To me Hamas were looking for this conflict to happen, due to its support falling.

How long do they want to kill each other for them to have had enough? There will always be some Arabs (in Palestine or outside Palestine) who don't think Israel has a legitimate right to exist. Israel themselves continue building on land not theirs to build on and so push the patience of the United Nations, even when there is no cause given by the Palestinians.

Perhaps you are right that if moderates and liberals on both sides gain power things will change, or (and it sort of goes hand in hand with liberalization) a secularizing of attitudes in the region in general- but let's be realistic, we are decades if not centuries away from that eventuality.

That is my point it has been one endless feud of killing that has gone on for decades, one of hate, where nobody is willing to concede they do any wrong, which is why it is needed for any hope of reconciliation. So far hate has not worked in any form and again to me Hamas clearly wanted to gain support which they were losing and to do this they start a conflict knowing full well and by encouraging civilians to stay within target areas. It gains them sympathy and support, though even within Palestine this policy is starting to backfire against them with some already having enough.

I am not so sure Eilzel on this being decades, being as there is now an even greater threat on the horizon very close to the area, that being ISIS, which is becoming the greater threat to the region, where I can actually foresee closer ties being made by Arab nations with Israel over this and if that happens, it could help bring about some peace to the area. Yes it will be a start and slow process, but it could help end some of the problems

That's one outcome of ISIS, but that could cause escalation in Palestine, especially considering the uncertainty in Syria.

Fair summary les, although I'm sure that if the Palestinians stopped the hostility they would be quickly accepted by the Israelis as friends and neighbours and would benefit greatly both socially and economically.

Tommy Monk wrote:Fair summary les, although I'm sure that if the Palestinians stopped the hostility they would be quickly accepted by the Israelis as friends and neighbours and would benefit greatly both socially and economically.

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Fair summary les, although I'm sure that if the Palestinians stopped the hostility they would be quickly accepted by the Israelis as friends and neighbours and would benefit greatly both socially and economically.

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

Agreed, which is why it will take the people of both sides to change the status quo and vote in people that will bring about change.

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Fair summary les, although I'm sure that if the Palestinians stopped the hostility they would be quickly accepted by the Israelis as friends and neighbours and would benefit greatly both socially and economically.

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

You cant reason with people who want to wipe you out.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

You cant reason with people who want to wipe you out.

Totally agree and why the Palestinians need to rid themselves of Hamas who want this!

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

You cant reason with people who want to wipe you out.

Totally agree and why the Palestinians need to rid themselves of Hamas who want this!

Hamas want Palestine.

gerber wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:


So they should just give up and seek refuge in another country?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but i would rather die defending my country then runaway.

Hi SM

They have nowhere to go.  Their lands have been taken bit by bit by settlers who refuse to stop building.  Why are the building areas not condemned by the west ?  Because US will not upset Israel for fear of loosing votes at home.  So Gaza is raised to the ground once again and more bricks laid

Hey Gerbs,

It is unfortunately and it will not end well

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Fair summary les, although I'm sure that if the Palestinians stopped the hostility they would be quickly accepted by the Israelis as friends and neighbours and would benefit greatly both socially and economically.

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

Nobody wants estates, towns, cities being built for foreigners in England, but it happens.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

Nobody wants estates, towns, cities being built for foreigners in England, but it happens.

Incomparable.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Totally agree and why the Palestinians need to rid themselves of Hamas who want this!

Hamas want Palestine.

Most Palestinians want Hamas out and yes we all know Hamas wants Palestine, which is the problem, they care little for the Palestinian people.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

There have been such moments since the creation of the State of Israel Tommy, and that hasn't happened. The constant building of new settlements is concrete evidence that many in power in Israel do not wish to see an equal Palestinian state.

Nobody wants estates, towns, cities being built for foreigners in England, but it happens.

Shouldn't have destroyed other countries then!

Eilzel wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


Nobody wants estates, towns, cities being built for foreigners in England, but it happens.

Incomparable.

Funny that - i'll listen to English people who live in England.

Didge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Hamas want Palestine.

Most Palestinians want Hamas out and yes we all know Hamas wants Palestine, which is the problem, they care little for the Palestinian people.

That is pure speculation on your part..........

Agree too, the constant settlement building and expanding of Israel is clearly wrong.


However the Israelis left Gaza in 2005, Sharon withdrew Israeli outposts and uprooted about 10,000 settlers.


And then Hamas quickly took over and Gaza became a launch pad for missiles into Israel.


"...Since the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, Hamas and these other groups have launched thousands of rockets and mortars out of Gaza into Israel. This rocket fire rarely causes casualties, but it makes life miserable for Israelis who live within range. The drumbeat of rocket fire destroys Israeli homes and forces people to scramble and hide when sirens sound. It's lessened recently, but it's one of Israel's most significant grievances with the Hamas leadership...."

"...Hamas is, according to its charter, the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood — an Islamist group that operates around the Muslim world, and one that nominally ran the Egyptian government for about a year recently. Hamas isn't controlled by the Egypt-based brotherhood leadership, but they have close ties. Unlike many Brotherhood branches, though, Hamas also has a militant wing: the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
Since Hamas' 1987 founding, it has waged war on Israel, most notably through suicide bombings and rocket attacks. It seeks to replace Israel with a Palestinian state, and has repeatedly refused to recognize Israel (though it has a proposed a long-term truce if Israel agrees to withdraw from the West Bank). Some Hamas leaders have suggested that they would be satisfied with a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza, but it's not at all clear whether they'd be able or willing to hammer out a deal with Israel in practice — assuming Israel was even willing to sit down with them, which is doubtful.
Hamas and Israel's long history of antagonism — Hamas conducted a significant number of suicide bombings inside Israel during the early 2000s — is a major contributor to the current crisis. Hamas and Israel refuse to negotiate openly and directly, and neither trusts the other even a little bit. As such, even small provocations have the potential to escalate rapidly..."


Although ....

"...There are other militant groups in Gaza, most notably Palestinian Islamic Jihad. These groups are even more radical than Hamas and are wholly committed to violence rather than to politics as the main tactic in their struggle with Israel...."


Also....

"...Before Israel occupied Gaza, it was controlled for some years by Egypt, which borders Gaza on the west. Israel took it from Egypt during the 1967 war between the two countries, and until 2005 it occupied the Gaza Strip..."


http://www.vox.com/2014/7/16/5904691/hamas-israel-gaza-11-things

BigAndy9 wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Incomparable.

Funny that - i'll listen to English people who live in England.

It isn't even close to the same. I'm having to restrain myself from being condescending here cause honestly you sound just like Tom Sawyer or Keith (that isn't complementary btw). Immigrants come here, as they always have, a move into houses built here. That isn't the same as a hostile state moving into our territory in a deliberate attempt to subvert our sovereignty and steal our land.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Most Palestinians want Hamas out and yes we all know Hamas wants Palestine, which is the problem, they care little for the Palestinian people.

That is pure speculation on your part..........

I am sorry but it is very true, does Hamas build bomb shelters for the people?
No
They tell people to stay put when Israel warns of an attack, that shows they want people to die to gain sympathy.
Yes there is also much wrong with the Israeli government, but please do not tell me Hamas care for the Palestinian people, when they never have, all they want is conflict and started this because their support has nose dived throughout the Middle East and Palestine itself

Eilzel wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


Funny that - i'll listen to English people who live in England.

It isn't even close to the same. I'm having to restrain myself from being condescending here cause honestly you sound just like Tom Sawyer or Keith (that isn't complementary btw). Immigrants come here, as they always have, a move into houses built here. That isn't the same as a hostile state moving into our territory in a deliberate attempt to subvert our sovereignty and steal our land.  

Come here?

Clown!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge wrote:


Most Palestinians want Hamas out and yes we all know Hamas wants Palestine, which is the problem, they care little for the Palestinian people.

That is pure speculation on your part..........

Sexy you cannot defend Hamas. They use their people as shields after launching strikes they know will bring devastating counter strikes more powerful than anything they can do. They willingly cause the death of hundreds of Palestinians. They don't care. The just want Israel to suffer. I'd certainly hope most Palestinians do want Hamas out because if they don't they are incremental in their own suffering tbh.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

It isn't even close to the same. I'm having to restrain myself from being condescending here cause honestly you sound just like Tom Sawyer or Keith (that isn't complementary btw). Immigrants come here, as they always have, a move into houses built here. That isn't the same as a hostile state moving into our territory in a deliberate attempt to subvert our sovereignty and steal our land.  

Come here?

Clown!

Cause that makes sense?

Go back to flap and chat with the dimwits Andy, you're more suited to the climate.

Putting your hatred and faith before your own children comes naturally to certain "communities".

Sexy Mutter has often said that her faith comes before her children.

Eilzel wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


Come here?

Clown!

Cause that makes sense?

Go back to flap and chat with the dimwits Andy, you're more suited to the climate.

Silence woman!

Eilzel wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:


Come here?

Clown!

Cause that makes sense?

Go back to flap and chat with the dimwits Andy, you're more suited to the climate.

I post on there too.

  

You are right about Andy's views mind and also his absurd comparison, which is no comparrison

BigAndy9 wrote:Putting your hatred and faith before your own children comes naturally to certain "communities".

Sexy Mutter has often said that her faith comes before her children.

Why don't you shut the fuck up you Moron.

When adults are debating its best morons like you stay out of it as you lack the basic knowledge

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Cause that makes sense?

Go back to flap and chat with the dimwits Andy, you're more suited to the climate.

I post on there too.

  

You are right about Andy's views mind and also his absurd comparison, which is no comparrison

Haha, but you are a regular here   

I mean the flap exclusives (except Dean, Dean is sound)   

SEXY MAMA wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Putting your hatred and faith before your own children comes naturally to certain "communities".

Sexy Mutter has often said that her faith comes before her children.

Why don't you shut the fuck up you Moron.

When adults are debating its best morons like you stay out of it as you lack the basic knowledge

Now now - remember my fantastic memory.

...and the search function