Does Hamas provoke Israel to attack Gaza?

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Palestinians as a diverse society are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation.

In much of the North American and western European media reporting on the current Israeli carnage of Palestinians, a common refrain is that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards Israel. Given the sophisticated defence system Israel possesses, courtesy of US taxpayers, none of these rockets hit any targets and fortunately no Israeli man, woman, or child has lost any life or limb because of them. This fact has scarcely bothered BBC, CNN, or any other shamelessly pro-Israeli outlet that always seeks to "balance" their reporting on Gaza by mentioning the fact that Hamas has also shot some rockets towards the Jewish state.

In one particularly nefarious example, Diane Sawyer of ABC showed a picture of Palestinians enduring Israeli bombing but told her American audience these were the pictures of Israelis under attack by Hamas rockets.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that Hamas does shoot some rockets towards Israel, and though these rockets scarcely harm anyone does not diminish their intent, which is to hit somewhere or harm someone. So the Hamas operation intends to harm people but they cannot do as they wish for their military wherewithal is not outsourced to the United States.

Thanks to AIPAC and other Israeli lobbies and pro-Israeli billionaires, among them those who encourage US President Barack Obama to nuke Iran on behalf of Israel, Israel enjoys a special relationship with the most deadly military machinery on the planet and partakes in that deadly force at will. Hamas in this regard has lost the bid to its Israeli counterparts and any outside military help they might receive is from countries like Iran that can hardly be compared to that gargantuan deadly machine called the US.

Erratic rockets

Useless as they are, why is Hamas firing these erratic rockets, and why would they not stop them anyway? Why bother? They are hardly any match for the Israeli army. After all, Hamas is David and Israel is Goliath in this contest. Wouldn't Palestinians be better off without Hamas trying to defend them in Gaza?

Here we need to ask the question in a slightly larger context. Is Hamas not a legitimate Palestinian organisation, with enough grassroots support that it won a major parliamentary election in Gaza back in 2006? I have known, and I still know, many Palestinians who do not like Hamas, disagree with their ideology, and oppose their ways. But these Palestinians of diverse political opinions are as much part of the Palestinian resistance to occupation and theft of their homeland as Hamas is.

Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies.

By far the most consistent and the most definitive aspect of Palestinian resistance to the occupation and theft of their homeland over the decades has been non-violent civil disobedience. Resistance for Palestinians is definitive of who and what they are. They might be a poet like Mahmoud Darwish, a novelist like Ghassan Kanafani, a film-maker like Michel Khleifi, an artist like Mona Hatoum, a feminist like Lila Abu Lughod - but in doing what they do, whatever they do, they oppose and defy the armed robbery of their homeland.

But there are also those Palestinians who have taken arms and opposed villainy by violence. As part of this resistance, Hamas is integral to the Palestinian national liberation movement, but like any other forms of resistance, Hamas is not definitive to Palestine.

Israeli propaganda machinery

What the Israeli propaganda machinery does is to reduce the entirety of Palestine, the rich and diversified tapestry of Palestinian resistance, to Hamas, then demonise Hamas. The strategy works, especially aided and abetted by major state-sponsored or corporate media like BBC, ABC, or CNN. Execute this strategy, and go on a rampage against Palestinians, maim and murder them with impunity.

Now for the sake of argument: Suppose we wake up tomorrow morning and there is no Hamas to shoot off any useless rockets towards Israel. Then what? The magnificent Israeli benevolence will move into operation and return the stolen Palestine to their rightful owners? Of course not. Suppose Hamas did not even exist since its founding in 1987. Then what? Israel would have by now returned Palestine to its rightful owners? Of course not.

Palestinians are varied and Palestinians are entirely entitled to resist and oppose the occupation and theft of their homeland by any means they deem necessary - whether it is by a beautiful song by Muhammad Assaf, a magnificent poem by Mahmoud Darwish, a film by Elia Suleiman, a novel by Ghassan Kanafani, a book on Palestinian costumes by Widad Kawar, or another on Palestinian cuisine by Rawia Bishara or by the militant Marxist organisation PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine), or indeed through the Islamist ideology of Hamas.

One may not agree with Hamas, may not join them, but one cannot reduce the entire tapestry of Palestinian resistance to Hamas, or tell Hamas to disband, for Israelis are about to return Palestine to its rightful owners.

So the bogus proposition that Hamas provokes Israel to attack Gaza is not only narratively false because Israeli military operations in Palestine always predate any Hamas operation, but also because Palestinians in their entirety are neither reducible to Hamas nor can they be denied the right to resist occupation in whatever form they deem necessary. Dividing these forms of resistance into "moderate" and "militant" will also lead nowhere but the pestiferous Washington think tanks.

A film by Annemarie Jacir, an art installation by Emily Jacir, a poem by Rafeef Ziadah or Dana Dajani, or a moving song by Rim Banna is infinitely more radical than any flimsy rocket that Hamas might fire. The Israeli propaganda machinery does not want the world to know these radically defiant forms of Palestinian resistance that have grabbed Zionism by the throat for generations and do not allow it to swallow Palestine. But they magnify Hamas as the face of Palestine.

Military atrocities

In a future free and democratic Palestine, who knows how many votes Hamas would garner in a given election. But we are nowhere near that moment yet - and Israel and its criminal military atrocities are the principle obstacle why we are nowhere near that point. Until then, Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist the robbery of their homeland by any means they deem necessary, including, but never limited to, Hamas.

Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea.

Zionism as a murderous machinery of colonial conquest will not stop until the very last inch of Palestine is taken - and yet the Palestinians persist in their homeland, resist occupation, procreate, sing, dance, compose music and poetry, make films, stage drama, organise acts of civil disobedience, mobilise for BDS ... and yes, of course, some of them also pick up a few flimsy arms against the most sophisticated armed robbery of a homeland in history.

Hamid Dabashi is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/hamas-provoke-israel-attack-201471512246535512.html

That sums it up exactly.

If Hammas disappeared tomorrow Israel would not stop until it had all of Palestine.

Well as the above is nothing more than looking to blame an further inflame conflict, it shows you have learnt very little from what I have just said. Work on the people on both sides that want peace, not create more hate, as it is that kind of hate that is making this conflict continue

It's giving the truth, and Quill asked for a reply, tried to goad about C&P and then doesn't like it when he gets one. But then, I expect nothing more, it's the Quill way, cut and run.

Sassy wrote:It's giving the truth, and Quill asked for a reply, tried to goad about C&P and then doesn't like it when he gets one.   But then, I expect nothing more, it's the Quill way, cut and run.

No it is not the truth, it is you an outsider with no real experience of the problem, making things worse, thinking you understand something when you do not.
Again peace is brought about by people uniting not casting blame and inciting more hate between each side.
All that does is fuel further hate and resentment, it will nee people in Israel and Palestine to unite, where they both have a majority view of reconciliation. Your view point has achieved nothing and it never will when you continue to cast hate and blame!

Yada Yada Yada Yada, I was speaking to Quill, not you, does he need a lap dog to talk for him now?

Who's spamming now...???
And it is you who is deaf functamd blind to the facts.
Palestine could have had it's peace and independent state many times over already but constantly refuse all offers and continue firing missiles into Israel at innocent civilians women and children.

Sassy wrote:Yada Yada Yada Yada, I was speaking to Quill, not you, does he need a lap dog to talk for him now?

 And I am speaking to you that you might finally learn that what you promote is th wrong way to bring about peace

Tommy Monk wrote:Who's spamming now...???
And it is you who is deaf functamd blind to the facts.
Palestine could have had it's peace and independent state many times over already but constantly refuse all offers and continue firing missiles into Israel at innocent civilians women and children.

Do give your rubbish a rest.

Sassy wrote:"Like any other richly diversified society, Palestinians are composed of followers of many religions, politics, and ideologies. Palestinians are Christian, Muslim, atheists, and agnostic. They are nationalist and/or socialists. They are secularists, Islamists, post-Islamists, and post-secularists. They are feminists, modernists, post-modernists, deconstructionists, and they are nativists at times, cosmopolitan at others, unionists, pacifists, militants, you name it. One of them was a founding figure of a school of critical thinking called post-colonial studies."

Hamas was voted in and represents these diverse people and, as in any diverse society, you have people who voted for them and people that didn't.   However all of them, including the people that didn't, are united in their resistance to Israel stealing their land AGAIN and trying to wipe them out.

Ok, I’ll bite and waste another hour reading your cow.  I trust you are finally going to explain to me why Hamas/Gaza has declared war on Israel by hurling some 13-hundred missiles at Israel.  So that we are certain we are on the same page: it is Gaza that is doing that, right(?); and Hamas is the government that runs Gaza, right?

Sassy wrote:But I don't see how Israel is at fault when they are merely responding in kind.  Gaza is lobbing some 1,284 missiles across the border now, and Israel has shown the patience of a saint, using their superior technology to take out the missiles and protect their own while forbearing with Gaza.

Responding in kind?   That's if you take out of the equation the fact that Israel do not just subject Gaza to military force, they subject every day, with their checkpoints and their embargo, and their removal of of Palestinians from their legally owned land and the bulldozing of their houses, the way they control the fuel of the supply of electricity, so that electrical outrages are the norm in Gaza, every single day, the water situation which they will not allow to be alleviated and with the bombing are making worse and all the other thousand and one things that are never reported in the Western press.   The fact that the Gazan are living in a prison of Israel's making.   Lobbing rockets that they know will very rarely reach any targets because of the money America has poured into Israel, so that they have the technical abilities to stop those rockets is not exactly a level playing field.

Israel makes life in Gaza desperate every single day in so many ways, and you think that when Gaza fires rockets because of that, the Israel bombardment is 'responding in kind'.

You immediately leap to America bashing, making no connection to the issue of why is Hamas/Gaza conducting war against Israel.  You can’t leap over reason, sass.  You’ve got to answer the questions I’ve asked—indeed, the whole world is asking.

Checkpoints are the least offensive ways of keeping down the violence.  The embargo stops weapons of destruction from coming into the arena; you should be happy.  The bulldozing of certain land is necessary to clear an area of no-mans-land to help assure peace.  Controlling power sources is a way of assuring that energy does not reach SAM batteries.  The bombing is in retaliation for the lobbing of missiles over

So far, all you have raised that Israel is doing are tactical measures that any country would do if they had an enemy conducting war against it.  Significantly, hurling missiles across the border is in no way a measure to alleviate any of these things.  What Hamas/Gaza wants are counter-measures, and in no way are these counter-measures.

So far, you haven’t answered my question.  Why is Hamas/Gaza conducting war against Israel?

Sassy wrote:Iran's hand is Hamas...Hamas has to go, and then reset Gaza up in the humanitarian way we all know Israel is capable of.

By humanitarian way, do you mean bulldozing houses?  Do you mean illegally taking land?   Do you mean shooting farmers in their fields because they fields are near the border?  Do you mean beating up a Palestinian boy and then backtracking like mad when they discover he is American?   Do you mean beating up an American Jewish boy because he dared to tell Israeli extremists what they were doing is wrong?   Do you mean threatening to burn down churches?   Do you mean beating Rabbi's who tell them that taking Palestinian land is wrong?   Is that your view of humanitarian?

Bulldozing houses are necessary to clear.  Taking farm lands are also necessary.  So, you’ve got one or two altercations involving boys.  Is it necessary to hurl 1,300 missiles for that.  How are hurling missiles going to vindicate these one or two boys, or the farmer.  It would see that a formal protest could handle most things, if that is all there is to the Palestinian complaints.

Sassy wrote:Israel gave the Palestinians their land in Gaza

Well no, actually Israel had occupied Gaza illegally and Sharon could see, even he, a total hawk, could see that it was not only wrong but that Israel would then have in their midst people who's land they had taken and who would always resent them.   But then, while returning it to it's rightful owners, Israel, because Sharon was now in a coma, proceeded to subject the people to the equivalent of mass torture every day, which made them resent Israel just as much and strengthened their resolve never to give up.   And now the people who didn't want Sharon to give it back, the Likud Party and the most extreme of them all, Netanyahu are now in control and doing what they wanted to do then, on a pretext drummed up by the leader of Mossad.

Now it has emerged that the head of the Israeli Mossad actually “called” the kidnapping a week in advance!

Israeli newspaper, Haaretz just reported: Mossad chief’s chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy.

Kevin Barrett, Veterans Today Editor in his article titled “Smoking gun proof of “Israeli teen kidnapping” false flag” writes Mossad Chief predicted “three teens will be kidnapped” one week before it happened.    

The land formerly known as Canaan belonged to Israel and several other tribes:

Wiki wrote:Situated at a strategic location between Egypt, Syria and Arabia, and the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. The region has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians.

There never has been a formal state of Palestine, so nothing was taken from anyone.  The modern division of Canaan is one of first impression:

Wiki wrote:In 1830, on the eve of Muhammad Ali's invasion, the Ottoman Porte transferred control of the sanjaks of Jerusalem and Nablus to Abdullah Pasha, the governor of Acre. According to Silverburg, in regional and cultural terms this move was important for creating an Arab Palestine detached from Syria (bilad al-Shams). According to Pappe, it was an attempt to reinforce the Syrian front in face of Muhammad Ali's invasion.[49][50] Two years later, in 1832, Palestine was conquered by Muhammad Ali's Egypt, but in 1840, Britain intervened and returned control of the Levant to the Ottomans in return for further capitulations. The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration and the Revival of the Hebrew language. The movement was publicly supported by Great Britain during World War I with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

In a genuine spirit of cooperation, the State of Israel shared the land with the indigenous Arabs, calling it Gaza.

Sassy wrote:I'm not going to give you the link, its in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, find it for yourself for once.

If it was important, you would include it.  If it’s not important, I’ll leave it be as well.

Sassy wrote:This is where Palestinians fail so miserably.  They either have no case, or they are incredibly bad at making their case.  Nowhere in this piece does the writer care to mention why the lobbing of missiles into Israel is beneficial for Palestinians. It’s what I fear most, that Muslims have never developed a sense of reason…of justification…of rationale.  They just go from I want, to I will take.

Palestinians are not bad at making their case, their case doesn't need making, it is recognised all over the world, hence so many of the world condemns Israel.   What Palestine hasn't got to make it's case is the influence of Israel, so that there is virtually no media that actually gives an even handed view, and like the CNN journalist who does actually tell it like it is, she is 'moved on' lest the truth hurts the delicate ears of America.   Israel has no reason of justification of rationale, it has what is was given and twice as much more, they just go from I want to I will take, and boy have they taken.

And finally, to the whole point of the article, that you have not only missed by a mile, but simply haven't recognised.

“Blame it on the media…”  You sound like a Republican. Lol  Well, consider the media as listeners as well.  If you can’t convince the media, I think you ought to consider the possibility that Hamas/Gaza has not got a very rational case to make.

Sassy wrote:And finally, to the whole point of the article, that you have not only missed by a mile, but simply haven't recognised.

Hamid Dabash wrote: "Hamas does not provoke Israel to attack Gaza. Palestinians do. The very name of Palestine, the very fact and phenomenon of being a Palestinian, being a witness to the moral bankruptcy of the very idea of Zionism provokes Israel. The mere existence of Palestinians is the denial of Israel and its dominant Zionist ideology. That is the reason that Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians, for if there were any Palestinians, she would be a joke. So she had to say there are no Palestinians in order to be an Israeli prime minister.

So anytime you hear an Israeli propagandist mention the word "Hamas", substitute for it "Palestinians" and the replaced signifier is far closer and truer to what they mean. They want to level that land from one end to another, continue to ethnically cleanse it, and call it Israel, and wash, as one young Israeli put it bluntly, Palestinians into the sea."

And the whole diversity of Gaza, be they supporter or non supporter of Hamas, be they doctor, poet, engineer or road sweeper, all know that and will resist Israel to the last.[/i]

Yes, yes, I understand that they are all pissed.  But Mr. Dabash never says over what?  I repeat:Why are Hamas/Gaza people starting wars?

”Sassy\" wrote:And I will say that, I rather resent the fact that because you had no understanding of the OP, I had to be as longwinded as you are, when I prefer to be concise and to the point.

You are angry because I made you work for once?  My understanding of the OP is quite clear: He doesn’t address anything but a social theme: Hamas is Gaza and Gaza is Hamas…and, I would only add,  they all are Iran.  

Nowhere does he tell us why they are starting wars.

No, I was cross you turned me into as big a windbag as you are, that wasn't work.   And you still can't answer except with your normal rubbish that shows you understand absolutely nothing.

Sassy wrote:No, I was cross you turned me into as big a windbag as you are, that wasn't work.   And you still can't answer except with your normal rubbish that shows you understand absolutely nothing.

He did answer, now it is your turn to counter his points.

There weren't any, just his usual Gaza is Hamas is Iran, that, as I had already said, was him missing the point by a mile because he simply can't comprehend it.

I must be the worst person on the planet because I find my self increasingly thinking let them all get on with it.
Im sick people using the plight of others as a point scoring exercise. Endless cut and pastes and posts full of smileys. There is right and wrong on both sides and people are dying, the conflict has been going for years and it will still be going when we are all dead and gone. What will change? Not a fecking thing

Sassy wrote:No, I was cross you turned me into as big a windbag as you are, that wasn't work.   And you still can't answer except with your normal rubbish that shows you understand absolutely nothing.

Well, I try to be thorough.

If you will notice, most of the space is your part. And, of that, most of it your C&P jobs. So right back at ya...does all that cow lend anything to the discussion?

Just read my part, and you will see the sense of the whole discussion.

Sassy wrote:There weren't any, just his usual Gaza is Hamas is Iran, that, as I had already said, was him missing the point by a mile because he simply can't comprehend it.

No he countered which means you have to counter, not avoid as you are doing.

Iran has way worse a human rights record for the region than many where they still stone people to death, let alone other human rights abuses, have you organised any marches to condemn this and help bring about change? You see what is need is people to bring about change through not hate, but changing hateful perceptions and show where people have a right to equal rights to coexist together, which means to stop blame and hate being used as stated already.


Right everyone enjoy your evening

Sassy wrote:There weren't any, just his usual Gaza is Hamas is Iran, that, as I had already said, was him missing the point by a mile because he simply can't comprehend it.

That is the only point made by the OP. My point is there is no reason for Hamas/Gaza to start wars.

That's as succinct as I can make it.

Nems wrote:I must be the worst person on the planet because I find my self increasingly thinking let them all get on with it.
Im sick people using the plight of others as a point scoring exercise. Endless cut and pastes and posts full of smileys. There is right and wrong on both sides and people are dying, the conflict has been going for years and it will still be going when we are all dead and gone. What will change? Not a fecking thing  

I hope it does change Nems, but it will only change when people stop hating and unite.

Have to go, so have a good evening

Didge wrote:

Nems wrote:I must be the worst person on the planet because I find my self increasingly thinking let them all get on with it.
Im sick people using the plight of others as a point scoring exercise. Endless cut and pastes and posts full of smileys. There is right and wrong on both sides and people are dying, the conflict has been going for years and it will still be going when we are all dead and gone. What will change? Not a fecking thing  

I hope it does change Nems, but it will only change when people stop hating and unite.

Have to go, so have a good evening

You too your Didgeyness, glad you are back x

Gaza starts the wars. Well that just about shows that either you know nothing or you don't give a fuck about what is really happening. Either way, you're not worth the effort, you have been brainwashed by the American media and loved every minute of it. Facts don't matter to you, lives don't matter to you, just as long as you can delude yourself, Gaze, Hamas, Iran. Keep saying your little mantra, but it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it was rubbish the first time and it will still be rubbish when you say it for the millionth time (have we reached that yet? Probably).

Sassy wrote:Gaza starts the wars.   Well that just about shows that either you know nothing or you don't give a fuck about what is really happening.   Either way, you're not worth the effort, you have been brainwashed by the American media and loved every minute of it.   Facts don't matter to you, lives don't matter to you, just as long as you can delude yourself, Gaze, Hamas, Iran.   Keep saying your little mantra, but it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it was rubbish the first time and it will still be rubbish when you say it for the millionth time (have we reached that yet?   Probably).

So you don't know either?

Don't try that stupidity. I've given you the facts over and over again, you just chose to ignore them, it doesn't suit your agenda and you can't bear that what you have been talking is sheer unadulterated crap.

Sassy wrote:Don't try that stupidity.   I've given you the facts over and over again, you just chose to ignore them, it doesn't suit your agenda and you can't bear that what you have been talking is sheer unadulterated crap.

Right, you don't know either.   

Have you looked up Hamas charter yet which has clearly said for years that they want to kill all Jews Sassy...?

Why don't you Google it....


And also explain why Israel handed Gaza over to the Palestinians in 2005 if as you said they want to take over all of Palestine???


And explain what response Israel is supposed to do when getting thousands of missiles shot at it every year targeting innocent civilians, women and children...???


And also, if it is such an apartheid style state there, why are 20-25% of Israelis actually Arabs...???

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

"Tell me, do the evil men of this world have a bad time? They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don't suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear us instead of feeling sorry. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear our madness instead of admiring our nobility. Let them tremble; let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a savage country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go wild, that we might start World War Three just like that, or that we might one day go crazy and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East. Even if you'll prove to me that the present war is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more. And do you know why it is all worth it? Because it seems that this war has made us more unpopular among the civilized world.We'll hear no more of that nonsense about the unique Jewish morality. No more talk about a unique people being a light upon the nations. No more uniqueness and no more sweetness and light. Good riddance." --Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

Martin Buber, to a New York audience, Jewish Newsletter, June 2, 1958: "When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...the majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us."

oseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 /p.2: "The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all the land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe."

Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989: "Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."

Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service: "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the Jordan River for future generations, for the mass aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000: "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."

"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."
(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002)

"[T]here is no single fixed method for murder and not even for genocide. The author Y. L. Peretz wrote about "the righteous cat" who does not spill blood, but only suffocates. The government of Israel, using the military and its instruments of destruction, is not only spilling blood, but it is also suffocating. ... Of course with our self-righteousness, with our self-adoration in our "Jewish ethics" we make sure to advertise how beautifully the doctors take care of Palestinian victims in the hospitals. We do not advertise how many of those are executed in cold blood in their own homes. So it's not yet genocide of the terrible and unique style of which we were past victims. And as one of the smart Generals told me, we do not have crematoria and gas chambers. Is anything less than that consistent with Jewish ethics? Did he ever hear how an entire people said that it did not know what was done in its name?"
(Shulamit Aloni, March 2003)

"In Palestine, curfew is a matter of life and death, especially for children, who don't carry a radio or a mobile phone to receive news of the curfew. This is the penalty here: anyone seen by soldiers on the street during curfew will be shot. This has happened to dozens of children and it was particularly poignant in Beit Lahim (Bethlehem) at Christmas when several children were murdered this way. You can be watching children running to safety, and in a moment they are bleeding on the road. What is extraordinary is that the military can justify this murder on the grounds that there is curfew. A child is killed because he is on the street at a forbidden moment. Can anyone feel that this penalty is proportionate?
The response to any protest at their actions is rote-learned - a shrug, a sneer and a snarled - 'Not my problem'."
(Anne Gwynne, 13 September 2004)

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:Don't try that stupidity.   I've given you the facts over and over again, you just chose to ignore them, it doesn't suit your agenda and you can't bear that what you have been talking is sheer unadulterated crap.

Right, you don't know either.   

God loves a trier but you wont get the last word you do know that lol

So no answer to the questions I see....

This idea (ph), this touch failed experiences, we have two options. No other. Either there's an international will, led by the U.S. and Europe and the international community and force Israel to go through the way of peace and a Palestinian state, according to the border of 1967 with the right to return. And this is something we have agreed upon as Palestinians, as a common program.

But if Israel can continue to refuse this, either the - either we force them or resist to - resort to resistance. I accept a state of the 1967. How can I accept Israel? They have occupied my land. I need recognition, not the Israelis. This is a reversed question.

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/21/hamas-political-leader-to-amanpour-on-israels-right-to-exist-i-need-recognition-not-the-israelis/

So they accept the 1967 borders but not the occupation of Palestine.

The Israeli's on the other hand say they want ALL the land, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, says that the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”. And that is what they intend to get.

Land was captured after Israel was attacked from all sides.


Gaza was handed back to the Palestinians in 2005 and just became a launch pad for missiles.


What incentive is there for Israel to hand over any other land if this will just become more launch pads?



Israel is surrounded by people who hate them and want to destroy them.

It is in their interests more than anyones to achieve peace.


The Arabs are not preventing conflict by launching missiles, they are provoking and continuing conflict.




You still have not explained why 20-25% of Israelis are Arabs if Israel was enforcing such an apartheid system there...?

Didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:


http://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-hamas-guilty-of-war-crimes/

NO Didge, I'm asking which international law that you say Israel is complying with, not a report from the Jerusalem think tank, the Israel Democracy Institute, claiming that Hamas are guilty of war crimes.

I just have, they are proving they are informing people which is even backed up by the earlier video by a Hamas official, whereas Hamas is not informing anyone of when they are going to target them, Israel is trying to minimize civilians casualties. You need to show me where they are breaking any international laws if you think I am wrong.

So YES Irn who thinks capitalizing a word is going to make a fat lot of difference.

You know what I find fundamentally wrong about all about all these constant posts about  Israel and the wrongs done, is two fold.

One, why are people so delusional to think Hamas are in anyway nothing more than extremists, happy to use civilians as shields knowing full well, such disgusting behavior will result in deaths. They want this being they gain PR and sympathy, because this is why they started the conflict because their support had nosedived, mainly because they backed the MB and were against Assad, which has now come back to bite them.

Second, why is it we see countless articles about Israel calling for action against Israel and from the same people, even more so the ones who are British Muslims, no articles constantly regarding , the Taliban, Isis, boko haram etc, where is the calls for protests where it is actually innocent Muslims dying at the hands of Muslim extremist? Where is the same zeal and passion for something to be done here? Where is the passion to end the abuses to human rights in places like Saudi, where is the articles condemning Christians being persecuted by Muslim extremists in some Muslim countries? You see none of this which really concerns me, for one why British Muslims are so passionate and angered more so about Israel and Palestine, yet daily suicide bombs go off throughout the middle East to Pakistan. Where is the same passion and zeal to call action against Isis who have been committing countless atrocities to innocent Muslims, no matter if they are Shia or Sunni? I could go the list is endless. See this from my point of you I argue against those who club Muslims poorly together with extremists an the terrorism they do, I deplore such poor arguments an will defend innocent Muslims being stereotyped wrongly, but why the silence here and not the same passion to right wrongs that are a hundred times worse where Muslims are suffering?

This concerns me greatly that the only zeal and venom full of hate is targeted against Israel, not Isis, not boko haram, not the Taliban, it begs the question if those who are using the conflict about Israel and Palestine are nothing more than antisemitic, because many agree here including myself Israel should not build settlements, it should come to peace, it should cease all conflict and more than anything have a the people vote in a more liberal government. Yet we are shouted at with such hatred , which I am seeing more and more over these articles, if we state Hamas needs to go for their to be any chance of peace, instead what is thrown back is absurd claims Israel wants to wipe out Palestine, which it has had ample opportunity to do and never has. These same people I join together with when people wrong attack Muslims when they club them together with extremists wronly, so I am not being rash here, as I see again something very sinister about how this hate I am seeing against Israel a nation who has little connection to the UK, has more rights than any Muslim country yet makes people hate them, more so than Muslim extremists with not have the same hate and passion driven towards this extremist groups. If they had this same passion against all extremist groups I could understand, but this is near non-existent from the same people  and on such different levels, that those people who do speak out against Israel, prove my point on this when they poorly excuse Hamas .

That is a very grave concern

The capital letter 'O' in the word No was finger trouble but if that made you read something else into it then obviously I will apologise for that.

I asked you which international law Israel were complying with and you gave me something the IDI. Now you are giving me an example of something that you say is Israel complying with international law and all I'm asking is that you state which international law that is.

The rest of your post contains some things I may or may not agree with but can I just ask you to address the current situation in the Gaza regarding whether what Israel is doing really is as you say in compliance with international law.

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:

I just have, they are proving they are informing people which is even backed up by the earlier video by a Hamas official, whereas Hamas is not informing anyone of when they are going to target them, Israel is trying to minimize civilians casualties. You need to show me where they are breaking any international laws if you think I am wrong.

So YES Irn who thinks capitalizing a word is going to make a fat lot of difference.

You know what I find fundamentally wrong about all about all these constant posts about  Israel and the wrongs done, is two fold.

One, why are people so delusional to think Hamas are in anyway nothing more than extremists, happy to use civilians as shields knowing full well, such disgusting behavior will result in deaths. They want this being they gain PR and sympathy, because this is why they started the conflict because their support had nosedived, mainly because they backed the MB and were against Assad, which has now come back to bite them.

Second, why is it we see countless articles about Israel calling for action against Israel and from the same people, even more so the ones who are British Muslims, no articles constantly regarding , the Taliban, Isis, boko haram etc, where is the calls for protests where it is actually innocent Muslims dying at the hands of Muslim extremist? Where is the same zeal and passion for something to be done here? Where is the passion to end the abuses to human rights in places like Saudi, where is the articles condemning Christians being persecuted by Muslim extremists in some Muslim countries? You see none of this which really concerns me, for one why British Muslims are so passionate and angered more so about Israel and Palestine, yet daily suicide bombs go off throughout the middle East to Pakistan. Where is the same passion and zeal to call action against Isis who have been committing countless atrocities to innocent Muslims, no matter if they are Shia or Sunni? I could go the list is endless. See this from my point of you I argue against those who club Muslims poorly together with extremists an the terrorism they do, I deplore such poor arguments an will defend innocent Muslims being stereotyped wrongly, but why the silence here and not the same passion to right wrongs that are a hundred times worse where Muslims are suffering?

This concerns me greatly that the only zeal and venom full of hate is targeted against Israel, not Isis, not boko haram, not the Taliban, it begs the question if those who are using the conflict about Israel and Palestine are nothing more than antisemitic, because many agree here including myself Israel should not build settlements, it should come to peace, it should cease all conflict and more than anything have a the people vote in a more liberal government. Yet we are shouted at with such hatred , which I am seeing more and more over these articles, if we state Hamas needs to go for their to be any chance of peace, instead what is thrown back is absurd claims Israel wants to wipe out Palestine, which it has had ample opportunity to do and never has. These same people I join together with when people wrong attack Muslims when they club them together with extremists wronly, so I am not being rash here, as I see again something very sinister about how this hate I am seeing against Israel a nation who has little connection to the UK, has more rights than any Muslim country yet makes people hate them, more so than Muslim extremists with not have the same hate and passion driven towards this extremist groups. If they had this same passion against all extremist groups I could understand, but this is near non-existent from the same people  and on such different levels, that those people who do speak out against Israel, prove my point on this when they poorly excuse Hamas .

That is a very grave concern

The capital letter 'O' in the word No was finger trouble but if that made you read something else into it then obviously I will apologise for that.

I asked you which international law Israel were complying with and you gave me something the IDI. Now you are giving me an example of something that you say is Israel complying with international law and all I'm asking is that you state which international law that is.

The rest of your post contains some things I may or may not agree with but can I just ask you to address the current situation in the Gaza regarding whether what Israel is doing really is as you say in compliance with international law.

Bull, you tried in a silly way because you were being an arse and by international law where there is legit military targets it is not seen as a war crime, where again you offer no proof to argue otherwise.
You can ask all you like, you made the point where by you disagree, as yet human rights watch out of countless attacks by Israel has identified 4 that could be deemed as war crimes, which I also condemn.
I have made my points, its up to you to refute them


Interesting you gloss over the other points

Didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:

I just have, they are proving they are informing people which is even backed up by the earlier video by a Hamas official, whereas Hamas is not informing anyone of when they are going to target them, Israel is trying to minimize civilians casualties. You need to show me where they are breaking any international laws if you think I am wrong.

So YES Irn who thinks capitalizing a word is going to make a fat lot of difference.

You know what I find fundamentally wrong about all about all these constant posts about  Israel and the wrongs done, is two fold.

One, why are people so delusional to think Hamas are in anyway nothing more than extremists, happy to use civilians as shields knowing full well, such disgusting behavior will result in deaths. They want this being they gain PR and sympathy, because this is why they started the conflict because their support had nosedived, mainly because they backed the MB and were against Assad, which has now come back to bite them.

Second, why is it we see countless articles about Israel calling for action against Israel and from the same people, even more so the ones who are British Muslims, no articles constantly regarding , the Taliban, Isis, boko haram etc, where is the calls for protests where it is actually innocent Muslims dying at the hands of Muslim extremist? Where is the same zeal and passion for something to be done here? Where is the passion to end the abuses to human rights in places like Saudi, where is the articles condemning Christians being persecuted by Muslim extremists in some Muslim countries? You see none of this which really concerns me, for one why British Muslims are so passionate and angered more so about Israel and Palestine, yet daily suicide bombs go off throughout the middle East to Pakistan. Where is the same passion and zeal to call action against Isis who have been committing countless atrocities to innocent Muslims, no matter if they are Shia or Sunni? I could go the list is endless. See this from my point of you I argue against those who club Muslims poorly together with extremists an the terrorism they do, I deplore such poor arguments an will defend innocent Muslims being stereotyped wrongly, but why the silence here and not the same passion to right wrongs that are a hundred times worse where Muslims are suffering?

This concerns me greatly that the only zeal and venom full of hate is targeted against Israel, not Isis, not boko haram, not the Taliban, it begs the question if those who are using the conflict about Israel and Palestine are nothing more than antisemitic, because many agree here including myself Israel should not build settlements, it should come to peace, it should cease all conflict and more than anything have a the people vote in a more liberal government. Yet we are shouted at with such hatred , which I am seeing more and more over these articles, if we state Hamas needs to go for their to be any chance of peace, instead what is thrown back is absurd claims Israel wants to wipe out Palestine, which it has had ample opportunity to do and never has. These same people I join together with when people wrong attack Muslims when they club them together with extremists wronly, so I am not being rash here, as I see again something very sinister about how this hate I am seeing against Israel a nation who has little connection to the UK, has more rights than any Muslim country yet makes people hate them, more so than Muslim extremists with not have the same hate and passion driven towards this extremist groups. If they had this same passion against all extremist groups I could understand, but this is near non-existent from the same people  and on such different levels, that those people who do speak out against Israel, prove my point on this when they poorly excuse Hamas .

That is a very grave concern

The capital letter 'O' in the word No was finger trouble but if that made you read something else into it then obviously I will apologise for that.

I asked you which international law Israel were complying with and you gave me something the IDI. Now you are giving me an example of something that you say is Israel complying with international law and all I'm asking is that you state which international law that is.

The rest of your post contains some things I may or may not agree with but can I just ask you to address the current situation in the Gaza regarding whether what Israel is doing really is as you say in compliance with international law.

Bull, you tried in a silly way because you were being an arse and by international law where there is legit military targets it is not seen as a war crime, where again you offer no proof to argue otherwise.
You can ask all you like, you made the point where by you disagree, as yet human rights watch out of countless attacks by Israel has identified 4 that could be deemed as war crimes, which I also condemn.
I have made my points, its up to you to refute them


Interesting you gloss over the other points

I gave you an honest reason for the capital 'O' and it really is nothing to get so upset about.

You said that what Israel is doing complies with international law. If you can't quote the law that I'll leave it as an unconfirmed statement.

I may be back later by which time you may have had a chance to try and find it.

Maybe catch you later chum.

I m not upset, just am exposing you poor replies Irn.


I have quoted that military targets are not war crimes, I suggest you prove otherwise, because the onus is on you to show I m wrong, which I know you are intelligent enough to know I am not wrong

Does anyone actually dispute the fact that Palestinian militants are constantly firing missiles into Israel at civilians, women and children, en masse, and are firing them from densely populated civilian Palestinian positions, making the people who live there a high risk of danger by possibility of return fire..???

Nems wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Right, you don't know either.   

God loves a trier but you wont get the last word you do know that lol

I know Nems, but I had to give it the ole try.  She also won't ever answer why Hamas/Gaza is starting this war.

Palestinians irrationally believe it is their land, even though they never possessed it and never had a state.  Only, like Iraq, they want westerners to fight their war.  Westerners don't even agree with them.

They appear to be like spoiled children.  Gimme...I want! Their continual message is the western media is against the...why do they think that is? They say western nations are against them...why do they think that is? They think the whole world is against them...why do they think that is? Maybe--just maybe--they are wrong and the world knows it.

Cheers, g'nite.

And that, after all the information you have been given about how the people of Gaza are treated and tortured every day. Seriously was that was all your famous 'brain' could come up with?

Gimmee I want and you equate that with Gaza? Gimmee I'll take - Israel.

They whole world knows Gaza is right, that's why the world has been protesting against Israel and condemning, and you have been shown proof of that.  

Gimmee I want - was that what those boys playing football on the beach were saying?

Not to worry, I always did say that you looked down on everything that was East of Europe because of your ignorance, and let's face it, to you Israel is just another bit of America, bought and paid for, so they can do no wrong, just like America when they march into other countries and destroy them.

Sassy wrote:And that, after all the information you have been given about how the people of Gaza are treated and tortured every day.  Seriously was that was all your famous 'brain' could come up with?

It's a war they started, sass.  I'm sure when they elected Hamas, they didn't realize that they were giving the keys to Darth Vader and the evil empire.  But they did, and now it will take an invasion to reintroduce civil order inside Hamas/Gaza.  Fortunately, Israel is there to offer police services.  Let 's call it what it is.

Sassy wrote:Gimmee I want and you equate that with Gaza? Gimmee I'll take - Israel.

No, Israel has been around since the 1880s, perhaps before.  They have had a state since 1948.  Israel has as much right to be there as anyone.

Sassy wrote:They whole world knows Gaza is right, that's why the world has been protesting against Israel and condemning, and you have been shown proof of that.  

The world has changed its mind, if they ever questioned it.  It is clear that Hamas/Gaza started this war by lobbing missiles across the border and into Israel.  Suppose the US sent, say, 1,300 missiles into Canada and shouted, They started it.  How would that fly in world opinion?  Right...well, you are seeing the same thing at play here.

Sassy wrote:Not to worry, I always did say that you looked down on everything that was East of Europe because of your ignorance, and let's face it, to you Israel is just another bit of America, bought and paid for, so they can do no wrong, just like America when they march into other countries and destroy them.

It's not about me, sass.  How do you think your friends in Hamas/Gaza feel when they see you abandoning their case in order for you to take up your pet mugging...attacking me.  You're not even a good soldier for the Hamas/Gaza cause.

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Exactly right. And Didge thinks I'm an extremist for pointing this out. Lol!

Didge clearly believes the Zionist propaganda and no matter what, will find an excuse for the murder of children.

It does beg the question whether you are antisemtic, where you failed to answer my questions, I am not saying you are but asking whether you are, because as seen you as a British Muslim have come on here and speak of the plight of Palestine, ignoring the fact Hamas are an extremist group who commits human rights violations to its own people, this does not seem to concern you in the slightest. What concerns me also with you being a British Muslim, where is the threads from you condemning Isis for example and organizing a protest at the crimes against humanity that they do?

For example today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10977704/Islamic-State-kills-270-in-Syrian-gas-field-massacre.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10977698/Christians-flee-Iraqs-Mosul-after-Islamists-tell-them-convert-pay-or-die.html

I mean considering Muslims are suffering vastly more in these areas you seem very silent on the matter and do not show the same passion and zeal that you do with the conflict in Palestine, which I do find to be very odd to say the least.

I see you have failed to answer my questions again and I have never denied as seen that extremist zionists are a problem in Israel but you ignore Hamas as if they are saints, when as seen they do not warn, and have no care for human life. If they did thy would have built shelters for people, but nothing, they have built tunnels so they can attack Israel. Again I do not want to see any loss of innocent civilians, but twice Hamas has rejected a ceasefire, showing clearly their resolve in this matter to continue this conflict, thus showing no regards for the Palestinians, something you whitewash at every turn. I am concerned if you have become extreme, because for one you do not think Hamas is extreme and two you seem only concerned about protesting against Jews and as seen not countless extremist Muslims who kill countless innocent Muslims daily.

Again, where I differ to you, is I want a more Liberal Government voted in by the Israeli people, I want the Palestinians to rid themselves of Hamas and I want both people to unite through peace. I also do not ignore where Israel has committed war crimes, which Human rights watch can point to four of the attacks being so and rightly condemn this, but by and large Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, where as Hamas does not give one flying fuck, if they did they would provide and built safety measures for the people of Gaza

The classic cry of the Zionist: if you're against Israel then you must be anti Semitic. Lol!

And then you cowardly back track by saying 'I'm not saying you are'.

So let me tell you a few things:

1. I have Arab genes and so I am a Semitic cousin of the Jews
2. I don't like Hamas. No one in the Arab world likes Hamas and would like to see Israel dismantle Hamas. I am against the Palestinians caught in the middle of a war.

You however are most definitively and absolutely condemning the of children as military targets. Are you sure Smelly hasn't hacked your account?

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:And that, after all the information you have been given about how the people of Gaza are treated and tortured every day.  Seriously was that was all your famous 'brain' could come up with?

It's a war they started, sass.  I'm sure when they elected Hamas, they didn't realize that they were giving the keys to Darth Vader and the evil empire.  But they did, and now it will take an invasion to reintroduce civil order inside Hamas/Gaza.  Fortunately, Israel is there to offer police services.  Let 's call it what it is.

Sassy wrote:Gimmee I want and you equate that with Gaza? Gimmee I'll take - Israel.

No, Israel has been around since the 1880s, perhaps before.  They have had a state since 1948.  Israel has as much right to be there as anyone.

Sassy wrote:They whole world knows Gaza is right, that's why the world has been protesting against Israel and condemning, and you have been shown proof of that.  

The world has changed its mind, if they ever questioned it.  It is clear that Hamas/Gaza started this war by lobbing missiles across the border and into Israel.  Suppose the US sent, say, 1,300 missiles into Canada and shouted, They started it.  How would that fly in world opinion?  Right...well, you are seeing the same thing at play here.

Sassy wrote:Not to worry, I always did say that you looked down on everything that was East of Europe because of your ignorance, and let's face it, to you Israel is just another bit of America, bought and paid for, so they can do no wrong, just like America when they march into other countries and destroy them.

It's not about me, sass.  How do you think your friends in Hamas/Gaza feel when they see you abandoning their case in order for you to take up your pet mugging...attacking me.  You're not even a good soldier for the Hamas/Gaza cause.

You are an idiot, and an ignorant idiot and hate to be shown up for being so, so back on the old rhetoric.

Really, such ignorance is intolerable in someone who has access to the facts but refuses to read, look or understand.

This will continue until the root causes are resolved. Israel refuses to accept international legality as a base for resolving the situation with Palestine and Gaza in particular, and it's right wing government is very happy to use military force at the drop of a hat.

The rockets were firing before the so called abduction of the teenagers, and whoever did it, and that is disputed, invading a country is not a proportional response.

Israel talk about their incursions into Gaza and the death inflincted as 'mowing the lawn'. The death toll shows the the asymmetry of power, with the fourth strongest army in the world on one side, funded by America, and a virtually defenceless civilian population on the other, with Hamas having home made rockets that Israel know, because of the defences America help them set up, will never hit anything of value.

By launching the ground offensive on the pretext of the kidnappings, even though a Palestinian boy was burnt to death, Israel has burnt more houses, hospitals and water plants, displaced probably 50,000 people from their homes and turned the enclave that is Gaza into a living hell.

Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

But through it all, the reason for it is Israeli colonialism.

Yes, in 2005 Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, but under International Law it is still the occupying power. Why? Because it controls access to Gaze by land and air and sea. When Israel left it did not leave freedom, it left Gaza as an open air prison and a it's population able to be punched whenever Israel felt like it.

Hamas won a fair election in 2006, but the western allies of Israel, and Israel itself refused to recognise them, yet Gaza was supposed to be free to rule itself, so they decided on an economic way to overthrow it. In 2007 the blockade ensued, they cut Gaza off from the West Bank and the rest of the world and left the people inside it to indescribable suffering.

Proscribed under internation law, a blockade is collective punishment, so since 2007 the Gazans have been under an unrelenting, illegal seige.

The handling of the situation at the moment is normal for Netanyahu, brutal military force to keep the Gazans under control and keep them remote from the West Bank. He was opposed to the withdrawal in 2005 and he continues to reject a two state solution.

During the Kerry peace talks Netanyahu kept expanding the settlement and didn't have a constructive proposal to put. Kerry even drew up a security plan under which Israel would be able to leave the West Bank. Netanyahu dismissed it as not worth the paper.

In April, Hamas and Fatah reached an Accord, which infuriated Netanyahu, who said it was a 'Terror Pact', how dare the two areas of Palestine get together and work together. The Unity Government Accord was very moderate in it's policies and people. Mainly made of Fatah and without one member of Hamas. To try and work towards stopping the isolation, Hamas had virtually handed over power to Fatah, Fatah being remarkably pro-Western. The Unity Government accepted the conditions of the US and the EU for receiving aid, recognition of Israel, respecting past agreements and renunciation of violence.

Israel's response? Economic warfare. It stopped the government paid officials in Gaza from moving the Gaza government payroll to the Unity Government in Ramallan and it made the seige around the Gazan borders even tighter. The Unity Government thus could not happen. Israel didn't want it, they did not want a Unity Government, even if it did not have a member of Hamas in it. So they made sure they destroyed it. By doing so, they left Hamas with no choice, so after all that hard work, peace was not possible and Israel carried on talking about Hamas as a terrorist organisation and inflicted further horrors on the Gazans.

Everyone can see that a ceasefire is needed, especially the people of Gaza, but the one put up by Egypt met what Israel wanted, but didn't contain one thing for Gaza. And they didn't even bother to consult Hamas. Hamas found out through the media, there were no discussions, no seeing what was needed by both sides, it was simply Sisi allowing Netanyahu to look good. Hamas requires an end of Israeli aggression, the easing of the blockade and the return of the prisoners Israel took after the murder of the three boys. It will not accept less, and why should it?

The international community rose up against Putin over the shooting down of the Malaysian plane, because it was mostly western people who were the victims. They need to do the same to Israel and insist that it abides by the 63 UN resolutions against it, ends the occupation, give back the land it has stolen and allow the Palestinians to live in their own country in freedom or stop handing over the funding that keeps Israel strong, and have a world embargo on it products.

Sassy wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's a war they started, sass.  I'm sure when they elected Hamas, they didn't realize that they were giving the keys to Darth Vader and the evil empire.  But they did, and now it will take an invasion to reintroduce civil order inside Hamas/Gaza.  Fortunately, Israel is there to offer police services.  Let 's call it what it is.



No, Israel has been around since the 1880s, perhaps before.  They have had a state since 1948.  Israel has as much right to be there as anyone.



The world has changed its mind, if they ever questioned it.  It is clear that Hamas/Gaza started this war by lobbing missiles across the border and into Israel.  Suppose the US sent, say, 1,300 missiles into Canada and shouted, They started it.  How would that fly in world opinion?  Right...well, you are seeing the same thing at play here.



It's not about me, sass.  How do you think your friends in Hamas/Gaza feel when they see you abandoning their case in order for you to take up your pet mugging...attacking me.  You're not even a good soldier for the Hamas/Gaza cause.

You are an idiot, and an ignorant idiot and hate to be shown up for being so, so back on the old rhetoric.  

It's not about me, sass. Take a look at the thread title. Get a grip child...all that wasted emotion is just going up in smoke.

Keep ignoring this Quill

Really, such ignorance is intolerable in someone who has access to the facts but refuses to read, look or understand.

This will continue until the root causes are resolved. Israel refuses to accept international legality as a base for resolving the situation with Palestine and Gaza in particular, and it's right wing government is very happy to use military force at the drop of a hat.

The rockets were firing before the so called abduction of the teenagers, and whoever did it, and that is disputed, invading a country is not a proportional response.

Israel talk about their incursions into Gaza and the death inflincted as 'mowing the lawn'. The death toll shows the the asymmetry of power, with the fourth strongest army in the world on one side, funded by America, and a virtually defenceless civilian population on the other, with Hamas having home made rockets that Israel know, because of the defences America help them set up, will never hit anything of value.

By launching the ground offensive on the pretext of the kidnappings, even though a Palestinian boy was burnt to death, Israel has burnt more houses, hospitals and water plants, displaced probably 50,000 people from their homes and turned the enclave that is Gaza into a living hell.

Each side claims to be responding, Israel claiming it is to end the firing of rockets. Hamas claims it is engaged in legitimate resistance to military occupation and the rockets are in response to the violent IDF crackdown on the West Bank following the kidnappings and murder of the three boys, which still, as it was something that was suggested by the Head of Mossad the week previously, has not be proven that it wasn't a set up.

But through it all, the reason for it is Israeli colonialism.

Yes, in 2005 Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza, but under International Law it is still the occupying power. Why? Because it controls access to Gaze by land and air and sea. When Israel left it did not leave freedom, it left Gaza as an open air prison and a it's population able to be punched whenever Israel felt like it.

Hamas won a fair election in 2006, but the western allies of Israel, and Israel itself refused to recognise them, yet Gaza was supposed to be free to rule itself, so they decided on an economic way to overthrow it. In 2007 the blockade ensued, they cut Gaza off from the West Bank and the rest of the world and left the people inside it to indescribable suffering.

Proscribed under internation law, a blockade is collective punishment, so since 2007 the Gazans have been under an unrelenting, illegal seige.

The handling of the situation at the moment is normal for Netanyahu, brutal military force to keep the Gazans under control and keep them remote from the West Bank. He was opposed to the withdrawal in 2005 and he continues to reject a two state solution.

During the Kerry peace talks Netanyahu kept expanding the settlement and didn't have a constructive proposal to put. Kerry even drew up a security plan under which Israel would be able to leave the West Bank. Netanyahu dismissed it as not worth the paper.

In April, Hamas and Fatah reached an Accord, which infuriated Netanyahu, who said it was a 'Terror Pact', how dare the two areas of Palestine get together and work together. The Unity Government Accord was very moderate in it's policies and people. Mainly made of Fatah and without one member of Hamas. To try and work towards stopping the isolation, Hamas had virtually handed over power to Fatah, Fatah being remarkably pro-Western. The Unity Government accepted the conditions of the US and the EU for receiving aid, recognition of Israel, respecting past agreements and renunciation of violence.

Israel's response? Economic warfare. It stopped the government paid officials in Gaza from moving the Gaza government payroll to the Unity Government in Ramallan and it made the seige around the Gazan borders even tighter. The Unity Government thus could not happen. Israel didn't want it, they did not want a Unity Government, even if it did not have a member of Hamas in it. So they made sure they destroyed it. By doing so, they left Hamas with no choice, so after all that hard work, peace was not possible and Israel carried on talking about Hamas as a terrorist organisation and inflicted further horrors on the Gazans.

Everyone can see that a ceasefire is needed, especially the people of Gaza, but the one put up by Egypt met what Israel wanted, but didn't contain one thing for Gaza. And they didn't even bother to consult Hamas. Hamas found out through the media, there were no discussions, no seeing what was needed by both sides, it was simply Sisi allowing Netanyahu to look good. Hamas requires an end of Israeli aggression, the easing of the blockade and the return of the prisoners Israel took after the murder of the three boys. It will not accept less, and why should it?

The international community rose up against Putin over the shooting down of the Malaysian plane, because it was mostly western people who were the victims. They need to do the same to Israel and insist that it abides by the 63 UN resolutions against it, ends the occupation, give back the land it has stolen and allow the Palestinians to live in their own country in freedom or stop handing over the funding that keeps Israel strong, and have a world embargo on it products.

BTW, if you google this piece and find it in the comments section in the Guardian, Keep Hoping is me, I haven't plagiarised it, I often write in the comments section.

I'm sure someone will be along soon howling and screaming like a Banshee warrior to dismiss this as nothing more than promoting hate instead of peace and reconciliation and it's just supporting Hamas.

Wait and see.

If those of you who were there think back to the old sky forum I asked a question THEN


"just who? are the nazi's now??"

This was written by a Jewish lady who lives in Gaza, who's mother was in Belsen, so I guess she would know what she was talking about. It was a few years ago now, but nothing has changed.

Amira Hass, who has lived in Gaza, describes it as a prison that shames her people. She recalls how her mother, Hannah, was being marched from a cattle-train to the Nazi concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen on a summer’s day in 1944. "[She] saw these German women looking at the prisoners, just looking," she wrote. "This image became very formative in my upbringing, this despicable 'looking from the side'."

"Looking from the side" is what those of us do who are cowed into silence by the threat of being called anti-Semitic. Looking from the side is what too many western Jews do, while those Jews who honour the humane traditions of Judaism and say, "Not in our name!" are abused as "self-despising". Looking from the side is what almost the entire US Congress does, in thrall to or intimidated by a vicious Zionist "lobby". Looking from the side is what "even-handed" journalists do as they excuse the lawlessness that is the source of Israeli atrocities and supress the historic shifts in the Palestinian resistance, such as the implicit recognition of Israel by Hamas. The people of Gaza cry out for better.


http://johnpilger.com/articles/looking-to-the-side-from-belsen-to-gaza

A piece in the New Statesman made a good point as well:

For its many supporters in the west, Israel is being unfairly singled out for criticism. As the country’s former foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami angrily said to me in an interview for al-Jazeera English in 2013: “You are trying to turn Israel into a special case.”

According to the likes of Ben-Ami, there are much more vile regimes, and more violent groups, elsewhere in the world. Why pick on plucky Israel? What about the Chinas, Russias, Syrias, Saudi Arabias, Irans, Sudans and Burmas? Where are the protests against Isis, Boko Haram or the Pakistani Taliban?

There are various possible responses to such attempts at deflection. First, does Israel really want to be held to the standards of the world’s worst countries? Doesn’t Israel claim to be a liberal democracy, the “only” one in the Middle East?

Second, isn’t this “whataboutery” of the worst sort? David Cameron told those of us who opposed the Nato intervention in Libya in 2011: “The fact that you cannot do the right thing everywhere does not mean that you should not do the right thing somewhere.” Well, quite. And the same surely applies to criticism of Israel – that we cannot, or do not, denounce every other human-rights-abusing regime on earth doesn’t automatically mean we are therefore prohibited from speaking out against Israel’s abuses in Gaza and the West Bank. (Nor, for that matter, does the presence of a small minority among the Jewish state’s critics who are undoubtedly card-carrying anti-Semites.)

Trying to hide Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians behind, say, Syria’s barrel bombs, China’s forced labour camps or Russia’s persecution of gays won’t wash. After all, on what grounds did we “single out” apartheid South Africa in the 1980s for condemnation and boycott? Weren’t there other, more dictatorial regimes in Africa at the time, those run by black Africans such as Mengistu in Ethiopia or Mobutu in Zaire? Did we dare excuse the crimes of white Afrikaners on this basis?

Taking a moral stand inevitably requires us to be selective, specific and, yes, even inconsistent. “Some forms of injustice bother [people] more than others,” wrote Peter Beinart, the author of The Crisis of Zionism, in December 2013. “The roots of this inconsistency may be irrational, even disturbing, but it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t act against the abuses they care about most.”

Third, Israel is “singled out” today, but by its friends and not just by its enemies. It has been singled out for unparalleled support – financial, military, diplomatic – by the western powers. It is indeed, to quote Ben-Ami, a “special case”.

Which other country is in receipt of $3bn a year in US aid, despite maintaining a 47-year military occupation in violation of international law? Which other country has been allowed to develop and stockpile nuclear weapons in secret?

Which other country’s prime minister could “humiliate” – to quote the newspaper Ma’ariv – a sitting US vice-president on his visit to Israel in March 2010, yet still receive 29 standing ovations from Congress on his own visit to the US a year later? And which other country is the beneficiary of comically one-sided resolutions on Capitol Hill, in which members of Congress fall over each other to declare their undying love and support for Israel – by 410 to eight, or 352 to 21, or 390 to five?

Indeed, which other country has been protected from UN Security Council censure by the US deployment of an astonishing 42 vetoes? For the record, the number of US vetoes exercised at the UN on behalf of Israel is greater than the number of vetoes exercised by all other UN member states on all other issues put together. Singling out, anyone?

Fourth, the inconvenient truth is that we in the west can happily decry the likes of, say, Assad or Ayatollah Khamenei yet we can do little to influence their actual behaviour. Have sanctions stopped Assad’s killing machine? Or Iran’s nuclear programme? In contrast, we have plenty of leverage over Israel – from trade deals to arms sales to votes at the UN. Israel is our special friend, our close ally.

Yet when Israel started bombing Gaza this month, claiming it was acting in response to incoming rocket fire and was trying to kill Hamas operatives, Cameron merely “reiterated the UK’s staunch support for Israel” and “underlined Israel’s right to defend itself”. And the hundreds of Palestinian dead? Didn’t they have a right to self- defence? There was not a word from our PM. This, ultimately, is the fundamental difference when it comes to comparing Israel’s abuses with those of other “rogue” nations. We single out Israel because, shamefully, we are complicit in its crimes.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/07/we-single-israel-out-because-we-west-are-shamefully-complicit-its-crimes

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:


It does beg the question whether you are antisemtic, where you failed to answer my questions, I am not saying you are but asking whether you are, because as seen you as a British Muslim have come on here and speak of the plight of Palestine, ignoring the fact Hamas are an extremist group who commits human rights violations to its own people, this does not seem to concern you in the slightest. What concerns me also with you being a British Muslim, where is the threads from you condemning Isis for example and organizing a protest at the crimes against humanity that they do?

For example today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10977704/Islamic-State-kills-270-in-Syrian-gas-field-massacre.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10977698/Christians-flee-Iraqs-Mosul-after-Islamists-tell-them-convert-pay-or-die.html

I mean considering Muslims are suffering vastly more in these areas you seem very silent on the matter and do not show the same passion and zeal that you do with the conflict in Palestine, which I do find to be very odd to say the least.

I see you have failed to answer my questions again and I have never denied as seen that extremist zionists are a problem in Israel but you ignore Hamas as if they are saints, when as seen they do not warn, and have no care for human life. If they did thy would have built shelters for people, but nothing, they have built tunnels so they can attack Israel. Again I do not want to see any loss of innocent civilians, but twice Hamas has rejected a ceasefire, showing clearly their resolve in this matter to continue this conflict, thus showing no regards for the Palestinians, something you whitewash at every turn. I am concerned if you have become extreme, because for one you do not think Hamas is extreme and two you seem only concerned about protesting against Jews and as seen not countless extremist Muslims who kill countless innocent Muslims daily.

Again, where I differ to you, is I want a more Liberal Government voted in by the Israeli people, I want the Palestinians to rid themselves of Hamas and I want both people to unite through peace. I also do not ignore where Israel has committed war crimes, which Human rights watch can point to four of the attacks being so and rightly condemn this, but by and large Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, where as Hamas does not give one flying fuck, if they did they would provide and built safety measures for the people of Gaza

The classic cry of the Zionist: if you're against Israel then you must be anti Semitic. Lol!

And then you cowardly back track by saying 'I'm not saying you are'.

So let me tell you a few things:

1. I have Arab genes and so I am a Semitic cousin of the Jews
2. I don't like Hamas. No one in the Arab world likes Hamas and would like to see Israel dismantle Hamas. I am against the Palestinians caught in the middle of a war.

You however are most definitively and absolutely condemning the of children as military targets. Are you sure Smelly hasn't hacked your account?

Well I heard some news that seems to confirm my suspicions that some Muslims in this country are being indoctrinated with hate against Jews and yet are not  as stated being taught the same to do something about other Muslim countries against extremist groups..There is clearly something very underhanded going on in this country with indoctrination to young Muslims. You see if people disagree with you then you associate with someone far right or they must be Zionist, proving my point, I though am asking which is where there is a difference

You are a human being and biologically we are all one race and I do not condemn any children, I condemn Hamas when they place 20 rockets in a school confirming they are using children as human shields, which to me proves the pointing they want as many innocent people to die and are assisting in this happening by such tactics which you seem to ignore is the case. I want a ceasefire and have stated as such all the time, of which Hamas has refused to do, something which has escaped you at every turn and if they did the fighting would stop. I do not want to see any loss of life, but I also believe Israel has a right to defend itself and that people should not be bought by the fact that Hamas has manipulated the media because they are using civilians as human shields. Not in all cases and as stated I admit that Israel has committed some war crimes, but they have warned people to leave and have tried to minimize casualties, Hamas do not do the same and every rocket they launch is a crime against humanity.


So nothing cowardly. I have concerns  and I do not see the same passion you have against other conflicts going on, which to me and anyone would raise questions and I fail to see why you do not understand that, which to me is why we see young Muslims going off to Syria and Iraq, they are being indoctrinated and being as you are a British Muslims you will place doubt into people where your loyalties are with. This then raises concerns people have, or do you not even see that?

So you hate Hamas, well why is it you do not show the same passion to unite people to rid Gaza of Hamas, you do that I will give the same passion and zeal to bring about change in Israel and to bring people around to voting in a more Liberal Government, where if this occurs then there is a chance of lasting peace.

Deal?

Well, well, well.   So Didge, saying that people only care about Palestine, finds it odd that others care about Syria, and yet he's been asking why we don't care about Syria.   We do, I did a thread, and explained why I thought people were going out to Syria to try and help because of the immense suffering there.  But beside the point.   Stop defecting and stick to what is happening Gaza, it's bad enough.  

Didge, who says every Muslim on forums should support him, because he 'stands up for them' turns on Zack about his loyalties when Zack has the audacity to stand up for Gaza.   That is exactly what Zionist Jews do to Jews that stand up for their beliefs and say what is happening in Gaza is wrong.

And of course, Didge knows more that a woman who watched her mother being taken into Belsen and says what Israel is doing in Gaza is inhumane and an atrocity and what the West is doing is exactly the same as the Germans did as they watched her mother.

victorisnotamused wrote:If those of you who were there think back to the old sky forum  I asked a question THEN

"just who? are the nazi's now??"

Obviously, the Palestinians are. Fortunately they are out-muscled by Israel, so they are not able to accomplish what Hitler was. That's why this is inapt.

Back in Vietnam a tactic was developed of putting women and children at risk, using them as shields, etc., then blaming the opposition when the women and children are killed.

This tactic has been perfected by the Iranians, who use Hamas to provoke a war with Israel in Gaza, and then moan and cry when the women and children are killed. That is why an Israeli invasion of Gaza is so essential...to stop the Islamic sacrifices. It's the only humanitarian thing that a civilized nation can do.

So, no answers to the very detailed reasons for the conflict and why Israel are committing war crimes, just diversion and avoidance of the posts you can't answer.   This is not about you trying to look clever Quill, which you clearly don't, this is about children being massacred, genocide being committed against a people and war crimes being carried out by Israel, especially, as you have obviously read on the other thread, with the weapons they are using in a action that is supposedly to take out rockets, but are only useful in inflicting dreadful wounds on civilians.

For once in your life, stop making it about you and make it about the people who are suffering, read, learn, inwardly digest and acknowledge the crimes that are being committed instead of finding excuses for them.

And PS, Victor, and many, many others, including many Jews, are saying that the Israeli Government are the Nazi's now.

Sassy wrote:Well, well, well.   So Didge, saying that people only care about Palestine, finds it odd that others care about Syria, and yet he's been asking why we don't care about Syria.   We do, I did a thread, and explained why I thought people were going out to Syria to try and help because of the immense suffering there.  But beside the point.   Stop defecting and stick to what is happening Gaza, it's bad enough.  

Didge, who says every Muslim on forums should support him, because he 'stands up for them' turns on Zack about his loyalties when Zack has the audacity to stand up for Gaza.   That is exactly what Zionist Jews do to Jews that stand up for their beliefs and say what is happening in Gaza is wrong.

And of course, Didge knows more that a woman who watched her mother being taken into Belsen and says what Israel is doing in Gaza is inhumane and an atrocity and what the West is doing is exactly the same as the Germans did as they watched her mother.

That shows you did not understand anything I just asked Zack, because I am not asking any Muslims to support me because of how I defend against discrimination in this country, not once did I say that, your words not mine and he brought up reference to genes, not I. Which proves again not only do you lie about hacking crap. but you also lie here
Then of course Sassy brings in the old victim status argument of what and how one holocaust survivor feels whilst neglecting how other Jews feel, like one who is 98 survivor and cannot move to get to a bomb shelter, so please spare me your pathetic tactics as I can easily turn them onto you and show then in the same vein, it shows you cannot debate and rely solely on the blame game as you always have done.

My point is valid and would raise any concern, we see countless killings going on daily in for example Syria and Iraq, let alone countless overs, where Muslims Christians etc all innocent are being butchered yet this does not create the same passion and zeal that it does with Israel and Palestine and as I am a Non-Muslim I will question where I find things that do not add up, which is for Zack to answer, which as you are not a Muslim, you cannot answer

Didge all that is just waffle and you know it, and nothing to do with the suffering of the people of Gaza.

'In contrast, we have plenty of leverage over Israel – from trade deals to arms sales to votes at the UN. Israel is our special friend, our close ally.

Yet when Israel started bombing Gaza this month, claiming it was acting in response to incoming rocket fire and was trying to kill Hamas operatives, Cameron merely “reiterated the UK’s staunch support for Israel” and “underlined Israel’s right to defend itself”. And the hundreds of Palestinian dead? Didn’t they have a right to self- defence? There was not a word from our PM. This, ultimately, is the fundamental difference when it comes to comparing Israel’s abuses with those of other “rogue” nations. We single out Israel because, shamefully, we are complicit in its crimes.'


We could act and we do not, because we are part of helping Israel commit war crimes.