Stop And Search 'Often Only Happens Because The Person Is Black', Home Secretary Theresa May Says

I like Teresa May as a minister, Didge. I think she does a fairly good job and is basically honest which is rare these days in our parliament.

sounds like the police are doing the right job for a change

Mir auch. She's straightforward and doesn't take any crap.

One could of course take the view that the police look where they know looking will do some good

Irn Bru wrote:I like Teresa May as a minister, Didge. I think she does a fairly good job and is basically honest which is rare these days in our parliament.

Agreed Irn, you cannot Police based off the colour of a person's skin, those that advocate as some do here that the Police know what they are doing, then why have so many been wrongly stopped or even wrongly arrested or as we have seen a disparity in sentencing racially?
Sadly some people seem to have sold themselves to prejudice, hey ho, what is good here though, is that people are starting to wake up to this poor methodology that has been going on by the Police for years and its time to change.

Well done Teresa May.

 ::D:: 

Well as blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime, and over represented by a factor of 6-7 in prisons, is it any surprise that they are more likely to be stopped and searched?


If a crime has been committed and the police are looking for a young black man, do they start stopping old Chinese women?



About a third of our prisoners are ethnic minorities while making up only about 10% of the national population.



It might be a pain to be stopped and searched but is for the overall good, so why such a fuss?

It also acts as a deterrent for those who would otherwise be carrying drugs or maybe a weapon or other stolen goods etc.

I think you need to learn to read:

She told the House of Commons: "It is very clear that in a large number of cases the reasonable grounds for suspicion were not there and one can only therefore assume, given that black people are six times more likely to be stopped and searched than a white person, that it is precisely the fact that they are a black person that has led to that stop and search taking place.


Or do you think she is lying when she said it's disgraceful?

Tory pandering to black and ethnics in the run up to an election....?

Never!





Why were reasonable grounds not there? Because nothing was found?


Look at the statistics, blacks are over represented in crime by a factor of 6-7, and are stopped and searched 6 times more than others.


Seems to me this is just simple cause and effect.


If blacks were not responsible for so much crime then they wouldn't be getting stopped and searched as much.

Good afternoon Folks.

I wonder what the figures are for Stop & Searches carried out by black & other ethnic police officers?

Did those officers carry out any racist,illegal or mistaken searches?

You don't get many black and ethnics in the police force or the military here shady, they don't seen too keen on that, so the numbers are quite small.



But they can't get enough of our benefits systems or our prisons, making up huge disproportionate numbers there....!

I see Tommy is using illogical view points now based again on skin colouir and association fallacy yet never answered my view point in regards to biological evidence to show blacks are criminally minded.


So where is this evidence Matti/Tommy, as am still waiting?

If not then as stated by criminologist there are many factors as to why people commit crime, skin colour not being one of them, but you advocate stopping more blacks, even though now using more in prison, when even sentencing as you well know is disproportionate and has been exposed by the Ministry of Justice as also wrong.

So Tommy advocates not sound intelligence on crime, but skin colour and cannot use any science to explain why, but advocates racism for stop ad search, weird one that even though a report shows how wrong this is.

I'm very happy and surprised Theresa May admits this.

If all things were equal, and criminal responsibility was about the same between ethnic groups, then you would expect stop and search figures to be the same.



But when blacks are so hugely disproportionately responsible for so much crime and ore over represented by a factor of 6-7 in prison, then you can expect blacks to be targeted by police more.


Cause and effect.


I see nothing wrong with police targeting people matching description of crimes carried out.


It might mean innocent people are sometimes stopped, but is for the overall good so stop complaining.


It alsoacts as a deterrent to others who might be thinking about carrying drugs or weapons etc!

Still no scientist evidence from Matti that blacks are criminally minded.

Or any criminology to back up his view on skin colour as a factor in crime.

So Matti advocates guilt by association on skin colour, thankfully our Government does not.

 


Try again

The numbers are the evidence dodge.


The figures speak for themselves.

Still no evidence From poor Tommy except guilt by association.

Biological evidence please?

Criminology evidence?

Take you time

Tommy, the only way your numbers would prove anything is if it were already established that the criminal justice system was not biased.

It's not a fair system, though: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/courts-are-biased-against-blacks-with-white-offenders-less-likely-to-be-jailed-for-similar-crimes-says-official-report-8959804.html

Blacks are over represented in prisons by a factor of 6-7, which tells me they are responsible for disproportionate amounts of crime.
Then it is no surprise that they are more likely to be stopped and searched.
If there has been a crime committed by a young black man, who should the police stop and search?

Still no biological evidence from Matti?

As seen we know Blacks are also 20% more than whites sentenced for the same crimes, as proven by the Ministry of Justice, thus far more whites would be in jail, which they are not thus the stats are very unreliable to make a view point on crimes, when many whites get off being sent to jail. You failed on this one claiming the report was poor and ended up with egg on your face on that.

So again biological evidence please blacks are more criminally minded?

Criminology evidence please?


Never seen somebody avoid questions so much as Matti does

And Ben, small study, not taking into account all the other facts and/or mitigating circumstances involved.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
So the fact that blacks are more likely to be stopped and searched is quite right!
The police should be allowed to get on with their job and not be hand cuffed by political correctness.

Tommy Monk wrote:Blacks are over represented in prisons by a factor of 6-7, which tells me they are responsible for disproportionate amounts of crime.
Then it is no surprise that they are more likely to be stopped and searched.
If there has been a crime committed by a young black man, who should the police stop and search?

Tommy, the only way your numbers would prove anything is if it were already established that the criminal justice system was not biased.

It's not a fair system, though: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/courts-are-biased-against-blacks-with-white-offenders-less-likely-to-be-jailed-for-similar-crimes-says-official-report-8959804.html

Since I can tell you didn't read anything in that link, here's the important part:

Judges and magistrates are institutionally racist, consistently handing down more lenient sentences to white criminals, an official Government study has revealed.

The disturbing report, produced by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), shows that black and Asian defendants are almost 20 per cent more likely to be sent to jail than those who are white. At the same time, the average prison sentence given to Caucasian criminals by courts in England and Wales is seven months shorter than those given to Afro-Caribbean offenders.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Since I can tell you didn't read anything in that link, here's the important part:

Judges and magistrates are institutionally racist, consistently handing down more lenient sentences to white criminals, an official Government study has revealed.

The disturbing report, produced by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), shows that black and Asian defendants are almost 20 per cent more likely to be sent to jail than those who are white. At the same time, the average prison sentence given to Caucasian criminals by courts in England and Wales is seven months shorter than those given to Afro-Caribbean offenders.

Thanks Ben, was going to post this, he made mistakes about this report but it proves the stats in Jail are poor to say the least, because 20% more whites should be in jail.

He needs to offer biological evidence, something he is unable to do at every turn

Read it before, small study, not itself unbiased, and fails to take into account other mitigating factors involved in sentencing.
But if you can't accept the actual prison numbers as fact and cling to the illusion that blacks aren't really guilty at all and just the victims of racism, Then read my links which highlight the racial breakdown of crimes committed.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html

Tommy Monk wrote:Read it before, small study, not itself unbiased, and fails to take into account other mitigating factors involved in sentencing.
But if you can't accept the actual prison numbers as fact and cling to the illusion that blacks aren't really guilty at all and just the victims of racism, Then read my links which highlight the racial breakdown of crimes committed.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


That is not biological evidence


Try again

And dodge, you are wrong again, even if it were true that blacks were unfairly 20% more likely to get prison sentence then that would mean that there should be 20% less blacks in prison, which still doesn't account for the huge disproportionate over representation by a factor of 6-7 times!!!!
If there were a fifth less in prison then they would still be over represented by a massive factor!
Look at my links showing who is responsible for crime, and tell me why blacks shouldn't be given more attention by the police than everybody else?

Tommy Monk wrote:And dodge, you are wrong again, even if it were true that blacks were unfairly 20% more likely to get prison sentence then that would mean that there should be 20% less blacks in prison, which still doesn't account for the huge disproportionate over representation by a factor of 6-7 times!!!!
If there were a fifth less in prison then they would still be over represented by a massive factor!
Look at my links showing who is responsible for crime, and tell me why blacks shouldn't be given more attention by the police than everybody else?

Oh it makes a big difference if you factor in the number of white people getting off jail sentences, something you are unable to refute because how many white people are in jail, factor that by 20% and the disparity becomes much smaller, let alone the factor is many whites are getting away with crimes because they are not targeted by stop and search, thus they also have less chances of being caught, showing how disparity happens in a society when it uses poor methods. So on all fronts you have not a scooby doo

Again though you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:And dodge, you are wrong again, even if it were true that blacks were unfairly 20% more likely to get prison sentence then that would mean that there should be 20% less blacks in prison, which still doesn't account for the huge disproportionate over representation by a factor of 6-7 times!!!!
If there were a fifth less in prison then they would still be over represented by a massive factor!
Look at my links showing who is responsible for crime, and tell me why blacks shouldn't be given more attention by the police than everybody else?

Oh it makes a big difference if you factor in the number of white people getting off jail sentences, something you are unable to refute because how many white people are in jail, factor that by 20% and the disparity becomes much smaller, let alone the factor is many whites are getting away with crimes because they are not targeted by stop and search, thus they also have less chances of being caught, showing how disparity happens in a society when it uses poor methods. So on all fronts you have not a scooby doo

Again though you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer

Evening Didge.

You would be as well stopping asking because Tommy doesn't have any biological evidence to support his views.
I think it's fairly well established that crime levels are linked to deprivation and lack of opportunity and not to the colour of someone's skin.

Tommy Monk wrote:You don't get many black and ethnics in the police force or the military here shady, they don't seen too keen on that, so the numbers are quite small.



But they can't get enough of our benefits systems or our prisons, making up huge disproportionate numbers there....!

Not exactly patriotic these ethnics are they??

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:



Oh it makes a big difference if you factor in the number of white people getting off jail sentences, something you are unable to refute because how many white people are in jail, factor that by 20% and the disparity becomes much smaller, let alone the factor is many whites are getting away with crimes because they are not targeted by stop and search, thus they also have less chances of being caught, showing how disparity happens in a society when it uses poor methods. So on all fronts you have not a scooby doo

Again though you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer

Evening Didge.

You would be as well stopping asking because Tommy doesn't have any biological evidence to support his views.
I think it's fairly well established that crime levels are linked to deprivation and lack of opportunity and not to the colour of someone's skin.

Evening Irn

People with common sense get the links to crime as seen by countless evidence coming from criminologists, but sadly people with racial agenda's do not.
He has no answer anyway to the fact that if you have inequality in stop and search then it stands to reason more white people are less likely to be caught and if you also have disparity on sentencing where 20% of whites get off prison sentences, the disparity further increases.
As Ben ha stated before it would be good to see the stats of those in jail according to those living in deprivation and poverty.

"As seen" is didges new catchphrase as seen by his repeated use of it

Didge sees many things it would seem

smelly_bandit wrote:"As seen" is didges new catchphrase as seen by his repeated use of it

Didge sees many things it would seem

Wow, another informative reply from smelly   , do you want the lotto numbers as well for Saturday?

How about the Football results too?

smelly_bandit wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:You don't get many black and ethnics in the police force or the military here shady, they don't seen too keen on that, so the numbers are quite small.



But they can't get enough of our benefits systems or our prisons, making up huge disproportionate numbers there....!

Not exactly patriotic these ethnics are they??

Have you won one of these smelly?

We have plenty of factual statistical evidence that shows a clear difference, the trend is also the same in other countries.
The 20% study doesn't say 20% of whites get off you cretin. Your attempts to fudge the figures are astounding!!!
Plus the fact that that study was extremely limited, not unbiased in itself, and did not take into account of other mitigating circumstances in sentencing so worthless.
It also does not account for the gross over representation of blacks in prisons.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
The figures speak for themselves!

Tommy Monk wrote:We have plenty of factual statistical evidence that shows a clear difference, the trend is also the same in other countries.
The 20% study doesn't say 20% of whites get off you cretin. Your attempts to fudge the figures are astounding!!!
Plus the fact that that study was extremely limited, not unbiased in itself, and did not take into account of other mitigating circumstances in sentencing so worthless.
It also does not account for the gross over representation of blacks in prisons.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html
The figures speak for themselves!

Dear me the desperation of a dummy, try again and actually the number is no doubt higher than 20% for whites getting off, so you are right it is not 20%, if 20% more blacks receive sentences than whites being as whites represent a much higher figure in jails and the white population being bigger. 
Oh my what an own goal


Oh it makes a big difference if you factor in the number of white people getting off jail sentences, something you are unable to refute because how many white people are in jail, factor that by 20% plus and the disparity becomes much smaller, let alone the factor is many whites are getting away with crimes because they are not targeted by stop and search, thus they also have less chances of being caught, showing how disparity happens in a society when it uses poor methods. So on all fronts you have not a scooby doo

Again though you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer

You are twisting what is said in a worthless study as basis for your argument.
What a twat!
Statistical evidence has shown there are startling differences in crime by races of biological difference.
Can you show us how this massively high over representation by blacks for crime is not down to some biological difference?

Tommy Monk wrote:You are twisting what is said in a worthless study as basis for your argument.
What a twat!
Statistical evidence has shown there are startling differences in crime by races of biological difference.
Can you show us how this massively high over representation by blacks for crime is not down to some biological difference?

Actually the stats show that a massive amounts of whites are getting away with not going to prison, that is a fact, no matter how poorly you try to argue different, in fact it being no doubt way higher than 20%, because the stats you are using, the prison stats as seen show a bias towards sentences where many whites get away with it with cautions, even if they have previous convictions. Let alone the data on stop and search showing how even though whites commit vastly more crime that blacks, they are stopped less, thus decreasing the chances of catching white criminals let alone them be arrested another area where there is a huge disparity.

On all levels, you have no argument and again you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer, so why do you keep avoiding this last point at every turn? Your argument on stats has been shown to be utterly flawed by the Ministry of Justice, who it goes against them, so why would they produce a report that shows its own failings?

Flawed and irrelevant study, showing only a possible slight difference, which doesn't explain the huge disparity and massive over representation overall.



But besides this prison population argument, what have you got to say about the before trial figures.....



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html

As seen Matti cannot counter my points

Try again and stop avoiding or at least wipe that egg off your face


Actually the stats show that a massive amounts of whites are getting away with not going to prison, that is a fact, no matter how poorly you try to argue different, in fact it being no doubt way higher than 20%, because the stats you are using, the prison stats as seen show a bias towards sentences where many whites get away with it with cautions, even if they have previous convictions. Let alone the data on stop and search showing how even though whites commit vastly more crime that blacks, they are stopped less, thus decreasing the chances of catching white criminals let alone them be arrested another area where there is a huge disparity.

On all levels, you have no argument and again you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer, so why do you keep avoiding this last point at every turn? Your argument on stats has been shown to be utterly flawed by the Ministry of Justice, who it goes against them, so why would they produce a report that shows its own failings?

Dodge you are getting carried away with your own waffle there.


You keep banging on about a flawed study which even if correct would not account for the massive over representation. You are conflating points around this, either deliberately to confuse the issue or because you don't really understand the basic maths around how percentages work.


But besides all this, let's have a look at some of the before trial arrest data......



"...Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street
crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife
crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan
Police to have been committed by black men...."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html

"...Police hold black men responsible for more than two-thirds of shootings and more than half of robberies and street crimes in London, according to figures released by Scotland Yard...."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html

Tommy Monk wrote:Dodge you are getting carried away with your own waffle there.


You keep banging on about a flawed study which even if correct would not account for the massive over representation. You are conflating points around this, either deliberately to confuse the issue or because you don't really understand the basic maths around how percentages work.


But besides all this, let's have a look at some of the before trial arrest data......



"...Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street
crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife
crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan
Police to have been committed by black men...."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html

As seen Matti cannot counter my points

Street crimes?

Oh my, it gets dafter by the minute, as do you actually read the links you post:


Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan Police to have been committed by black men.
Or at least, the police “proceed against” black men in those proportions for each of those crimes.
Crime statistics have to be approached with extreme caution, because it is very easy to leap to conclusions which are not justified by the figures.

Thanks for further proving my point, so now assuming is stats to you, PMSL and even shows who they proceed against, oh my, another Matti own goal

So try again and stop avoiding or at least wipe that egg off your face


Actually the stats show that a massive amounts of whites are getting away with not going to prison, that is a fact, no matter how poorly you try to argue different, in fact it being no doubt way higher than 20%, because the stats you are using, the prison stats as seen show a bias towards sentences where many whites get away with it with cautions, even if they have previous convictions. Let alone the data on stop and search showing how even though whites commit vastly more crime that blacks, they are stopped less, thus decreasing the chances of catching white criminals let alone them be arrested another area where there is a huge disparity.

On all levels, you have no argument and again you need to show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer, so why do you keep avoiding this last point at every turn? Your argument on stats has been shown to be utterly flawed by the Ministry of Justice, who it goes against them, so why would they produce a report that shows its own failings?

So the police own crime record figures are wrong too?



Your waffle is stupendous!


You have no points!!!


And biological evidence???


What are you going on about you cretin??



We know there are biological differences between races, and blacks evidently have a higher propensity towards crime as shown in all the stats and figures!!!



Areas where blacks live there are higher levels of crime.


These high crime areas are given extra police and resources to tackle this.


So there are more police and more stop and searches going on.


When the police are looking for people suspected of crimes, if it is a young black man suspected, which it often is, 12% of London are black but over 50% of street crimes committedby blacks, then they will be targeted more than anyone else.



Simple cause and effect.



Police doing a good job!

So lots of abuse and no answers to my points as per usual.

Never laughed at such poor debating in all my life, so lets get each point answered.

Yes the figures are wrong too, because we know they are wrong on arrests and stop and search, which is why your own link landed you with egg on your face


Show me biological evidence Blacks are more criminally minded, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer.


Will wait until your answer, then you will then address the rest of my points instead of continually avoiding

You have no points.



The two newspaper links I posted clearly talk of police figures for reported crimes.




There is biological evidence to show differences between races.


There are also statistics and figures to show blacks have a higher propensity towards crime.



And as blacks are responsible for a high and disproportionate amount of crime, it will also follow that they will be targeted more by police.


Nothing strange there.


If a crime is reported done by a young black man, who should the police target for stop and search in that area?



Take your time......!

Yes they report the same thing and as seen the Telegraph admits about the Police going after blacks, which you missed which was funny, proving again disparity.

So still no answer and more avoidance to my points

So again show biological evidence, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer?

You forget the stats are flawed for the simple factors already explained, because of stop and search, arrest and sentencing bias, with a new one yet to be confirmed of not reporting, so on all levels, you are up the creek without a paddle, I even showed with the numbers of those not sentenced would be massive for the white group, something you also avoided.
But hey, this is just repeating points which you also could not counter, so lets start with you answering the one question you know that there is no scientific evidence to back your view blacks are more criminally minded, but it sure is fun to watch you squirm

This will not stop until you answer, so I have for as long as we are both posting on this forum

Show me the biological evidence that blacks are more criminally minded, I have asked you around a hundred times, with not once you providing an answer?

Good luck

What more evidence do you need?


The figures speak for themselves!

Plus as the victims in over half of these crimes are also black, I thought you might be a bit more concerned, rather than just waffling on and trying to make out that it's not really happening.....?!