Coronavirus updates (gelico's original thread)

[gelico]

First topic message reminder :

seems to be spreading rapidly

tests show it started in a animal market

[Original Quill]

It substantiates everything I was saying: that the administration had notice of the virus as of January 3rd. Redfield told Azar, a cabnet secretary, and hence the administration had notice.

so what?

there is a virus, it hasn't killed anyone, it is under control and not able to pass from human to human


that was the info received so what do you expect trump or any other leader to have done with that info?

if he had acted and jumped up and closed the borders at that stage you would have said he was insane and you know it

nothing can substantiate the deep irrational hatred you have for trump

We are used to being protected by an administration that is prepared. With this administration we have no plan and none of the equipment necessary to fight this. If a nation invaded us and our leaders responded by saying it's all a hoax, it's fake news, it will all be over by the weekend, would we be happy with such fools?

We have been invaded by something much more insidious. This little microbe travels in droplets, enters the smallest of pores and kills substantial portions of the population. Now, you cannot direct your animosity toward a microbe--who, after all, is simply living its life the way it is programmed--but you can fault the protectors of the nation for gross negligence. Here is the most technologically advanced nation in the world, and the leaders are meeting this threat with it's nothing...which morphs into, Omg, how is this going to hurt me?!

This administration knows what it did wrong. It is all caused by their ideology of cost-cutting--your administration is failing you in the same way, calling it austerity--and regulation-slashing, in the hope that it encourages capitalism. But another term for regulations is public protections. If we called it public protection slashing, we would immediately see the harsh reality of it all. Conservatives are sacrificing the flesh and blood--indeed, the very lives--of their fellow citizens, in the hope of squeaking out few dollars more.

If this were a real war, and the administration had just decommissioned the 83rd and 101st Infantry, scrapped a few aircraft carriers, and cancelled research on new aircraft, or weapons, or radar, I daresay you too would be pissed. When the present administration took over, it immediately decided the entire Department of Health was frivolous and non-essential. They appointed a secretary and encouraged him to use the assets of the heath department for family vacations. They defunded the CDC--the worlds most advanced health research institution--and cancelled research projects, as well as stockpiles of test kits, masks, PPE's, ventilators, beds, vehicles, and simply hospital space. And most stunning of all, they actually disbanded the Pandemic Response Team--the equivalent of the US Navy Seals response team--when it comes to combating this very kind of threat.

Of course I dislike Trump. He is unAmerican, an agent-mole working on behalf of an enemy nation, an organized crime figure, a narcissist who puts himself before others, or his responsibilities, a cheater, a rapist, a murderer, a child abuser, and, incidentally, a person who is completely unequipped for political office and public duty. After he was elected, there were those of us who predicted that there would come a day when he would be confronted with a serious challenge...and he would inevitably fail. Well...that day is here.

[Original Quill]

March 13: Evangelical preacher Landon Spradlin of Virginia makes a Facebook post accusing "the media" of mass hysteria and of trying to use the coronavirus pandemic to attack Trump.

March 27: Landon Spradlin dies of coronavirus.

God responds.

A clever god, is he not?  

[Tommy Monk]

Closed Cases

182,393
Cases which had an outcome:

149,215 (82%)
Recovered / Discharged

33,178 (18%)
Deaths

['Wolfie]

Closed Cases

182,393
Cases which had an outcome:

149,215 (82%)
Recovered / Discharged

33,178 (18%)
Deaths

Another bullshit fake "statistics" effort from NF's troll "genius"...

Somebody tell scaremongering fucktard Tommy that the mortality rate in his own figures is is pure un-scientifik nonsense.. The genuine number of deaths has to be calculated on the total known number of cases -- not Tommy's own made up bullshittery..

Or just shoot the slimy trolling mongrel -- and put the rest of us out of our misery !

[nicko]

Can't you answer a post without your insults taking over ? Your a complete and utter wanker, and the biggest know all on the Forum, you must have a lonely life if that's what floats your boat ! -------Oh dear,I''v done a Wolfie and posted an insult !

[Tommy Monk]

Closed Cases

182,393
Cases which had an outcome:

149,215 (82%)
Recovered / Discharged

33,178 (18%)
Deaths

Another bullshit fake "statistics" effort from NF's troll "genius"...

Somebody tell scaremongering fucktard Tommy that the mortality rate in his own figures is is pure un-scientifik nonsense.. The genuine number of deaths has to be calculated on the total known number of cases -- not Tommy's own made up bullshittery..

Or just shoot the slimy trolling mongrel -- and put the rest of us out of our misery !

Says the slimy trolling mongrel who needs shooting...

[Tommy Monk]

Figures are from here...


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[Tommy Monk]

A case fatality rate (CFR, also case fatality risk, or case fatality ratio) is the ratio of deaths from a certain disease to the total number of people diagnosed with this disease for a certain period of time. A CFR is conventionally expressed as a percentage and represents a measure of disease severity.[1] CFRs are most often used for diseases with discrete, limited time courses, such as outbreaks of acute infections. CFR can only be considered final when all the cases have been resolved (either died or recovered). The CFR number during the course of an outbreak with a high daily increase and long resolution time would be substantially lower than the final CFR.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_fatality_rate



So... given that this is a new virus in humans... and that there are so many new cases happening, so quickly... what I said in my previous post applies...


Looking at the actual RESOLVED CASES is a clearer indication of what the final case fatality rate (mortality rate) is...

[Tommy Monk]

UK coronavirus outbreak showing signs of slowing, says top scientist

Anna Menin
4 hrs ago

A top scientist has said the UK outbreak is showing signs of slowing A top scientist has said the UK outbreak is showing signs of slowing

The coronavirus epidemic in the United Kingdom is showing signs of slowing and antibody tests for the disease could be ready in days, a top epidemiologist has said.

“We think the epidemic is just about slowing in the UK right now,” Neil Ferguson, a professor of mathematical biology at Imperial College London, told the BBC today.

Ferguson said a third or even 40 per cent of people with Covid-19 do not get any symptoms, and that two to three per cent of the United Kingdom’s population may have been infected, but added that the data was not yet good enough to make extrapolations.

The scientist said that antibody tests, which would determine whether people had had coronavirus in the past rather than just if they were currently infected, were in the final stage of validation.

[Original Quill]

UK coronavirus outbreak showing signs of slowing, says top scientist

Anna Menin
4 hrs ago

A top scientist has said the UK outbreak is showing signs of slowing A top scientist has said the UK outbreak is showing signs of slowing

The coronavirus epidemic in the United Kingdom is showing signs of slowing and antibody tests for the disease could be ready in days, a top epidemiologist has said.

“We think the epidemic is just about slowing in the UK right now,” Neil Ferguson, a professor of mathematical biology at Imperial College London, told the BBC today.

Ferguson said a third or even 40 per cent of people with Covid-19 do not get any symptoms, and that two to three per cent of the United Kingdom’s population may have been infected, but added that the data was not yet good enough to make extrapolations.

The scientist said that antibody tests, which would determine whether people had had coronavirus in the past rather than just if they were currently infected, were in the final stage of validation.

The coronavirus behaves that way.  Look at the followiing graph:



Before a spike, in most all regions, there is a abatement in cases just before the huge spike.  It's very much like the proverbial calm before the storm.

https://relief.unboundmedicine.com/relief/view/Coronavirus-Guidelines/2355041/all/Epidemic__Epi__Curves_for_Coronavirus_COVID_19 (third graph down, titled: Global Epidemic Curve for COVID-19).

[Tommy Monk]

NHS England says 9000 are being treated in hospital...


But the corona virus web site shows only 163 cases are serious/critical.


I would have thought that any case needing hospital treatment would have been classed as at least being 'serious'.

[Original Quill]

NHS England says 9000 are being treated in hospital...

But the corona virus web site shows only 163 cases are serious/critical.

I would have thought that any case needing hospital treatment would have been classed as at least being 'serious'.

I can imagine cases needing hospitalization that would be considered 'not serious'. However, they would be 'serious' if they were not hospitalized.

[Guest]

NHS England says 9000 are being treated in hospital...


But the corona virus web site shows only 163 cases are serious/critical.


I would have thought that any case needing hospital treatment would have been classed as at least being 'serious'.

That is because most cases in the last couple of weeks, Those mostly tested in the UK,  have been only of people who have needed hospital care. It means we most likely have to multiple that by 5-6 times to get the true figure of how many people in the Uk have contracted the virus Tommy. Being as those who need hospitalisation is near 18-20% who have this. Of those hospitalised and critical is around 6%. So based on this I would say of the 9000. Around 3,000-4,000 are critical. The web site is only accurate on tests done and deaths

[gelico]

Closed Cases

182,393
Cases which had an outcome:

149,215 (82%)
Recovered / Discharged

33,178 (18%)
Deaths

Another bullshit fake "statistics" effort from NF's troll "genius"...

Somebody tell scaremongering fucktard Tommy that the mortality rate in his own figures is  is pure un-scientifik nonsense..  The genuine number of deaths has to be calculated on the total known number of cases --  not Tommy's own made up bullshittery..

Or just shoot the slimy trolling mongrel --  and put the rest of us out of our misery !

er, no, no bullshit fake statistics

tommy is showing clearly the mumber of cases which have had a recordable outcome.


no made up bullshittery as you like to call it

what on earth is wrong with you?

can't you respond to anything without mindless insults?

[Ben Reilly]

Closed Cases

182,393
Cases which had an outcome:

149,215 (82%)
Recovered / Discharged

33,178 (18%)
Deaths

Another bullshit fake "statistics" effort from NF's troll "genius"...

Somebody tell scaremongering fucktard Tommy that the mortality rate in his own figures is  is pure un-scientifik nonsense..  The genuine number of deaths has to be calculated on the total known number of cases --  not Tommy's own made up bullshittery..

Or just shoot the slimy trolling mongrel --  and put the rest of us out of our misery !

Can't believe anybody greened your frothy-mouthed bile. Yes, we don't know how many people in the UK are really infected, due to the fact that not everyone has been tested. Yes, this means that the 18 percent figure is likely widely inflated.

But there was no need for all the insults, and especially no need for the call to shoot Tommy. Stop it, or you'll be punished.

[gelico]

Another bullshit fake "statistics" effort from NF's troll "genius"...

Somebody tell scaremongering fucktard Tommy that the mortality rate in his own figures is  is pure un-scientifik nonsense..  The genuine number of deaths has to be calculated on the total known number of cases --  not Tommy's own made up bullshittery..

Or just shoot the slimy trolling mongrel --  and put the rest of us out of our misery !

Says the slimy trolling mongrel who needs shooting...

stop there, tommy and don't slide down to his level. rise above it

for what it's worth, i at least, can see what you're posting and know that it's not BS, so can many others.

those that attack you, clearly don't want you to speak out

their problem, not yours

[gelico]

meanwhile,,,,,, back at the ranch,,,


Coronavirus Cases:
780,506

Deaths:
37,551


Recovered:
164,631

[Tommy Monk]

I was just repeating the words that Wolfie directed at me...

[gelico]

I was just repeating the words that Wolfie directed at me...

i know exactly what you were doing, tommy, but just don't ok because you don't need to.

leave wolfie in the gutter where he belongs,

FFS don't join him and splash about spraying shit everywhere, when you don't need to.

just rise above it,,,,,,,,and know that you are right

[eddie]

I was just repeating the words that Wolfie directed at me...

i know exactly what you were doing, tommy, but just don't ok because you don't need to.

leave wolfie in the gutter where he belongs,

FFS don't join him and splash about spraying shit everywhere, when you don't need to.

just  rise above it,,,,,,,,and know that you are right

Quite. Insults are for those who have nothing but anger.
And

Anger at an opinion???

Odd.

[gelico]

i know exactly what you were doing, tommy, but just don't ok because you don't need to.

leave wolfie in the gutter where he belongs,

FFS don't join him and splash about spraying shit everywhere, when you don't need to.

just  rise above it,,,,,,,,and know that you are right

Quite.  Insults are for those who have nothing but anger.
And

Anger at an opinion???

Odd.

hey edds, glad you're ok

but it's not anger at an opinion

wolfie seems to have a massive problem with the truth

tommy has only ever posted stats of cases with a known outcome

he did that from the start of this virus and has continued to do so

he has never lied or been any kind of fearmonger, just reported the figures and as when released by official websites

[Original Quill]

wolfie seems to have a massive problem with the truth

As do you, gelico. Remember, the Trump administration was advised of the coronavirus by his staff on January 3rd. You seem to twist the facts to fit your thesis. Shame on you.

[nicko]

Wolfie and his "bum boy" Quill, should get a Room !

[Original Quill]

Wolfie and his "bum boy" Quill, should get a Room !

Jealous?

['Wolfie]

Wolfie and his "bum boy" Quill, should get a Room !

Now it seems that the senile and noisy old troll nicko is having homosexual fantasies towards Quill and my most humble self  !!!

Unfortunately for nicko's newfound proclivities, neither Quill nor I swing in that direction,  preferring good wimmin folks ahead of nicko's fantasies..

Nicko would be much better off if he turned his same sex desires towards his fellow neo-nazi scumbags --  I reckon that smelly bandit, Deano and Stormee would be more to nicko's tastes.

['Wolfie]

Quite.  Insults are for those who have nothing but anger.
And

Anger at an opinion???

Odd.

hey edds, glad you're ok

but it's not anger at an opinion

wolfie seems to have a massive problem with the truth

tommy has only ever posted stats of cases with a known outcome

he did that from the start of this virus and has continued to do so

he has never lied or been any kind of fearmonger, just reported the figures and as when released by official websites

More fucking lying bullshit from the trolls gallery...

I have no problem with the actual facts..

What I do have a problem with is you lying shitheaded scaremongers (Tommy, nicko, and now you..) twisting the "truth" to suit your own trolling fearmongering agendas.

You attack me, and now Quill --  but not once have you pathetic losers actually proved me wrong --  rather you obnoxious trolls simply keep on calling me "liar,  troll,  mysogynist, unhappy.." etc.  

I have supplied links and references to back my comments on here over recent weeks --  while unlike people such as you, Tommy and Fatdog, I avoid those bullshit "truths" emanating from Facebook and Instagram..

You really are a disgusting and pathetic excuse for a human being..

['Wolfie]

i know exactly what you were doing, tommy, but just don't ok because you don't need to.

leave wolfie in the gutter where he belongs,

FFS don't join him and splash about spraying shit everywhere, when you don't need to.

just  rise above it,,,,,,,,and know that you are right

Quite.  Insults are for those who have nothing but anger.
And

Anger at an opinion???

Odd.

Tommy isn't posting "opinions" on here, though, is he...

As with the lying bullshit he regularly posts on other subjects (e.g. nazis; evolution; climate change), Tommy is posting fearmongering bullshit in the guise of faux "statistics" -- and continues to do so daily despite being proven wrong by both eilzel and myself a couple of weeks back..

And today gelico has shown us just what a lowlife piece of trolling slime she is -- launching yet more of her lying and slanderous personal attacks against me above there.

It would be a different matter if only Tommy and gelico had provided some actual facts to back up their manufactured "truths"..

[nicko]

What's wrong with you wolfie ? You just can't help yourself can you ? your inferiority complex blazes out of nearly every post you make. do you think that all your "hard talk"makes posters think your a tough man ? If that's what you think your sadly mistaken, most of us,[except Quill of course] think your just a Keyboard Warrior who tries to "big himself up" on line. you do make I laugh with your pathetic attempts to appear tough.It doesn't work son, your just a loser !

[Tommy Monk]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



I always post facts... But flea keeper refuses to see them...

[Tommy Monk]

A case fatality rate (CFR, also case fatality risk, or case fatality ratio) is the ratio of deaths from a certain disease to the total number of people diagnosed with this disease for a certain period of time. A CFR is conventionally expressed as a percentage and represents a measure of disease severity.[1] CFRs are most often used for diseases with discrete, limited time courses, such as outbreaks of acute infections. CFR can only be considered final when all the cases have been resolved (either died or recovered). The CFR number during the course of an outbreak with a high daily increase and long resolution time would be substantially lower than the final CFR.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_fatality_rate



So... given that this is a new virus in humans... and that there are so many new cases happening, so quickly... what I said in my previous post applies...


Looking at the actual RESOLVED CASES is a clearer indication of what the final case fatality rate (mortality rate) is...

More facts with link...

[Tommy Monk]

Neither flea keeper or Eilsel have ever proved me wrong on anything I've ever posted on any forum!

[gelico]

wolfie seems to have a massive problem with the truth

As do you, gelico.  Remember, the Trump administration was advised of the coronavirus by his staff on January 3rd.  You seem to twist the facts to fit your thesis.  Shame on you.

what facts did i twist, quill?

i never even questioned your post

my question to you is simply this

if you were leader of the USA and had notification that a virus had sprung up in China. As far as your intel is informed, It started in a market and some people are sick with respiratory problems. It is containable and no healthworkers have been affected by it so the virus itself can't be transmitted from one human to another. and certainly no one has died.


what action would you take?

[Tommy Monk]

Thanks for your support here Gelico.

[gelico]

Thanks for your support here Gelico.

yeah, well tommy, the website is there for us all to see. i don't see any alternative numbers being offered. no argument just mindless abuse

wolfie seems incapable of discussing the issue without resorting to abuse so clearly has nothing to offer

he cant do any better,,,,,,you can and you do so just saying don't sink down there with him

you're doing fine

[Original Quill]

Thanks for your support here Gelico.

Yes Tom, it's so hard to maintain these gang wars without your cohorts.

[Original Quill]

what facts did i twist, quill?

For one, you tried to put over on folks that the first notice to governments was January 18, not January 3rd, in order to minimize their gross negligence.

[Victorismyhero]

admin...."Victor is watching you"
poster......"insult gibber bile insult"
admin......"Victor is watching you"
poster ....."are you called victor?"
admin......" NO"
poster...."then who is victor"
admin..."Oh that would be the rottweiler over there" points>

[Original Quill]

admin...."Victor is watching you"
poster......"insult gibber bile insult"
admin......"Victor is watching you"
poster ....."are you called victor?"
admin......" NO"
poster...."then who is victor"
admin..."Oh that would be the rottweiler over there"    points>

Vic...you overestimate your importance, fgs.  One of the consequences of driving this place into the infertile RW soil, is that it's no great surprise if the place finally croaks.  You are using the same business model as Dean, and there are nothing but echos down that hall.

BTW...where are all those new members?  I quite enjoyed many of them--particularly, drsynne--for the brief blink or two that they were on.

[Maddog]

Wolfie is intelligent, but for a grown man he has some serious issues. The tenor he sets with his explosions of vile and nasty insults is going to keep membership pretty low around here. Sane people, even those with a similar political ideology, will steer clear of that hate spewing trainwreck and places he frequents.

[Original Quill]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I always post facts... But flea keeper refuses to see them...

With all due respect, Tom, that's because you don't even understand the concept of "facts".  For example, back in the debate about homosexuality, you start out assuming that Nature is a person, and assume s/he has a purpose (remember?).  Hence, your conclusion: Homosexuality is contrary to nature!  You held that out as a fact.

All facts are empirically verified.  But you allow your values and opinions to creep into many of your arguments.

[gelico]

what facts did i twist, quill?

For one, you tried to put over on folks that the first notice to governments was January 18, not January 3rd, in order to minimize their gross negligence.

gross negligence?

I notice that you didn't answer the rest of my post so I'll ask it again



if you were leader of the USA and had notification that a virus had sprung up in China. As far as your intel is informed, It started in a market and some people are sick with respiratory problems. It is containable and no healthworkers have been affected by it so the virus itself can't be transmitted from one human to another. and certainly no one has died.


what action would you take?




an answer to that would be good

[Maddog]

For one, you tried to put over on folks that the first notice to governments was January 18, not January 3rd, in order to minimize their gross negligence.

gross negligence?

I notice that you didn't answer the rest of my post so I'll ask it again



if you were leader of the USA and had notification that a virus had sprung up in China. As far as your intel is informed, It started in a market and some people are sick with respiratory problems. It is containable and no healthworkers have been affected by it so the virus itself can't be transmitted from one human to another. and certainly no one has died.


what action would you take?




an answer to that would be good

Very few world leaders took this seriously.

Our CDC and FDA botched this thing terribly.

Trump isn't really the issue in the beginning. The system is supposed to be ready for this stuff and our oppressive and silly regulations delayed pivoting to take this in by several weeks. Of course Trump is the president and has some responsibility, but usually presidents swing into action after the system proves ineffective.

This is like 911. Multiple agencies following policies that were years old, couldnt adapt to a changing enemy.

[gelico]

845,526 cases
41,429 deaths

[Victorismyhero]

admin...."Victor is watching you"
poster......"insult gibber bile insult"
admin......"Victor is watching you"
poster ....."are you called victor?"
admin......" NO"
poster...."then who is victor"
admin..."Oh that would be the rottweiler over there"    points>

Vic...you overestimate your importance, fgs.  One of the consequences of driving this place into the infertile RW soil, is that it's no great surprise if the place finally croaks.  You are using the same business model as Dean, and there are nothing but echos down that hall.

BTW...where are all those new members?  I quite enjoyed many of them--particularly, drsynne--for the brief blink or two that they were on.

irrelevant....regardless...victor is watching you.....

[Original Quill]

For one, you tried to put over on folks that the first notice to governments was January 18, not January 3rd, in order to minimize their gross negligence.

gross negligence?

I notice that you didn't answer the rest of my post so I'll ask it again

if you were leader of the USA and had notification that a virus had sprung up in China. As far as your intel is informed, It started in a market and some people are sick with respiratory problems. It is containable and no healthworkers have been affected by it so the virus itself can't be transmitted from one human to another. and certainly no one has died.

what action would you take?

an answer to that would be good

I wasn't interested in that question.  But I'll answer it in terms of what our president should have done.

First, the experiences with Swine flu, H1N1 and Ebola, were a lesson to the US.  The US has the capability to be the world's health police.  Dr. Obama set the wheels in motion with regard to the insights that such experiences taught us.  He set up the Pandemic Response Team, and written instructions of what to do in the event of a pandemic.

Second, pandemics don't stop, or even pause at borders.  So, don't be selfish about it...right off, it's a leader’s problem at first hint.  If you have the world's most advanced medical establishment, the public health answers, and the means of tracking the patterns statistically...WTF would you not?  I't gonna kill your mother, sure as its gonna kill those black people's mothers!

Third, having studied pandemics, and the knowledge in the field tells us that they travel, you need to have stockpiles.  The wealthiest nation ever, on the face of the earth, runs out of face masks???  Doesn't have PPE?  Can't find ventilators?  You know that this crisis was and is being handled by real amateurs.

Fourth, you take the problems seriously, at the beginning.  When the Trump administration took office, the first thing they did (besides looking to appease Russia), was to defund and dismantle all manner of public protections, in every industry.  But they looked upon the health issue with particular disdain.  Trump appointed a dilettante as Secretary of Health and Human Services...Tom Price.  Trump treated the Health Department as frivolous, at best.  Price proceeded to use departmental resources to take his family and friends on various vacations and junkets round the world. It was a joke, shouted so loudly in the press that Price had to be sacrificed.

Fifth, when your predecessor studies the problem so deeply, and goes so far as to hand pick a Pandemic Response Team of the finest experts in the field, and write a book of instructions for you so that you know immediately what to do, and how to act...you don't throw it all in the trash and show the Pandemic Response Team the door.

Trump ignored things even though pandemics have shown to be as great a threat as Pearl Harbor in 1941.  Remember?  He was fussing over which NATO nation should pay for things, and whining like a brat arguing over who should pay for lunch.  He was treating things like health and trade as frivolous.  It's only one thing that he never stopped to think was dangerous.  Trump failed to keep up stockpiles, as though that was something that the maid should do.  He probably told Secretary Price that the job was a fluff cruise, because no one obviously impressed on Price the importance of his department.

The final act of idiocy was to disregard and jettison everything that his predecessor had done on precisely this eventual crisis.  OBVIOUSLY, SOMEONE KNEW THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!  SOMEONE PREPARED FOR IT!!  Trump tossed the instructions, and fired the Pandemic Response Team in 2018, even though they were precisely the ones who were telling him this is eventually as big a problem as Pearl Harbor in 1941.

Now, we hear the strained cries like, ‘every leader missed the boat’…or ‘how could he have predicted?’  Well, every leader is not the head of the richest nation on earth, or had a panel of experts to advise him on precisely this problem, or tossed out stockpiles and tore up the instruction book, or fired a team (which could not have cost that much) of experts who had studied this problem, and was telling him that this would happen.  This is quite probably the most colossal blunder that any president has made...ever, anywhere, under any conditions, in the history of the earth...precisely because the organization that was handed to him had set him up so perfectly!  He squandered it all on conspiracy theories and the ideological premise that it was all deep state, and either frivolous or dangerous.

[Tommy Monk]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I always post facts... But flea keeper refuses to see them...

With all due respect, Tom, that's because you don't even understand the concept of "facts".  For example, back in the debate about homosexuality, you start out assuming that Nature is a person, and assume s/he has a purpose (remember?).  Hence, your conclusion: Homosexuality is contrary to nature!  You held that out as a fact.

All facts are empirically verified.  But you allow your values and opinions to creep into many of your arguments.

I never said nature was a person.

You have constructed your whole post around arguing against something that I did not say!

[Tommy Monk]

Thanks for your support here Gelico.

Yes Tom, it's so hard to maintain these gang wars without your cohorts.

I'm not part of any gang... And if one individual poster happens to agree with another individual poster on occasion, then that doesn't make them cohorts...


Also... I see the expression of an opinion as a fundamental freedom... It's interesting how you see yourself as being part of a war against the expression of opinions that you don't approve of...

[Original Quill]

Yes Tom, it's so hard to maintain these gang wars without your cohorts.

I'm not part of any gang... And if one individual poster happens to agree with another individual poster on occasion, then that doesn't make them cohorts...

Also... I see the expression of an opinion as a fundamental freedom... It's interesting how you see yourself as being part of a war against the expression of opinions that you don't approve of...

Pleeze...everyone listening knows what is going on.

[Original Quill]

With all due respect, Tom, that's because you don't even understand the concept of "facts".  For example, back in the debate about homosexuality, you start out assuming that Nature is a person, and assume s/he has a purpose (remember?).  Hence, your conclusion: Homosexuality is contrary to nature!  You held that out as a fact.

All facts are empirically verified.  But you allow your values and opinions to creep into many of your arguments.

I never said nature was a person.

You have constructed your whole post around arguing against something that I did not say!

No, but you said nature had a purpose.  Only people have a conscious plan, or purpose.  If you reverse engineer nature, you find only chance and necessity.  You've got to have conscious self-awareness in order to have a purpose.

[gelico]

[quote="Original Quill"]

I never said nature was a person.

You have constructed your whole post around arguing against something that I did not say!

No, but you said nature had a purpose.  Only people have a conscious plan, or purpose.  If you reverse engineer nature, you find only chance and necessity.  You've got to have conscious self-awareness in order to have a purpose.[/quote]


what, like sperm?

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