Judgement day...

First topic message reminder :

Do you believe there will be a judgement day for each and every one of us?...

I mean with all this talk of gays and homophobia God is supposed to love everyone right?...

Amd if he can forgive rapists and murderers for their awful sins,then surely he can 'forgive' a person for being gay surely?

I see a few contradictions in the things folk write.

So are we all going to have our own judgement day and stand in front of God, before he decide ps wether or not we can enter heaven?

I think it's nonsense myself like,  but I do believe in spirits.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:When I used to go to church, or go to a social function to do with the church, it didn't occur to me that there were people looking at me with narrowed eyes, wanting to tell me how evil religion was!

well you were ignorant

YES there are a lot of People in this world who See Christians as nothing but Terrorists.
you even worship one, and Dispite the Lip service Christains Give, the Reality is the Actions of the followers of Christ cannot be described as anything but Violent, selfish and downright Evil.

Did you think the world Only thinks Muslims are terrorists. Anyone Standing Back says the both of you are JUST as bad as each other.

I worship a terrorist? Which one is that?

You're lumping all Christians together of course. Some people do that to Muslims as well, and we have ended up with hate crimes against them because of attitudes like yours.

Eilzel wrote:Raggamuffin, perhaps in history people never heard of the evil of religion due to firstly ignarance and then the heresy was often a criminal act.

Going way back Christians murdered pagans and forced them to convert in Saxon England; Mary I burned Protestants over their beliefs; the Spanish Inquisition and Conquistadors murdered many around the world in the name of the Christian God.

Ignorance is the only way you can not know about the evils committed by Christianity.

I was talking about my own childhood when I said religion used to be more innocent.

I know dreadful things have been done in the name of Christianity, but is that a good reason to condemn all Christians?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Raggamuffin, perhaps in history people never heard of the evil of religion due to firstly ignarance and then the heresy was often a criminal act.

Going way back Christians murdered pagans and forced them to convert in Saxon England; Mary I burned Protestants over their beliefs; the Spanish Inquisition and Conquistadors murdered many around the world in the name of the Christian God.

Ignorance is the only way you can not know about the evils committed by Christianity.

I was talking about my own childhood when I said religion used to be more innocent.

I know dreadful things have been done in the name of Christianity, but is that a good reason to condemn all Christians?

does anyone condemn all muslims or just the so called extremists..?

heavenly father wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I was talking about my own childhood when I said religion used to be more innocent.

I know dreadful things have been done in the name of Christianity, but is that a good reason to condemn all Christians?

does anyone condemn all muslims or just the so called extremists..?

I think some people do, yes, particularly after certain incidents like the 7/7 bombing and the murder of Lee Rigby.

Raggamuffin wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

does anyone condemn all muslims or just the so called extremists..?

I think some people do, yes, particularly after certain incidents like the 7/7 bombing and the murder of Lee Rigby.

islam is unique in the way it meets all comments about how violent it can be with extreme shows of violence, normally by burning someones flag or expending countless ak47 rounds in the air, lets face it how could that be misconstrued...

heavenly father wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I think some people do, yes, particularly after certain incidents like the 7/7 bombing and the murder of Lee Rigby.

islam is unique in the way it meets all comments about how violent it can be with extreme shows of violence, normally by burning someones flag or expending countless ak47 rounds in the air, lets face it how could that be misconstrued...

You mean that some Muslims do that kind of thing. You don't read about the ones who don't of course. I think you just proved my point really.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

well you were ignorant

YES there are a lot of People in this world who See Christians as nothing but Terrorists.
you even worship one, and Dispite the Lip service Christains Give, the Reality is the Actions of the followers of Christ cannot be described as anything but Violent, selfish and downright Evil.

Did you think the world Only thinks Muslims are terrorists. Anyone Standing Back says the both of you are JUST as bad as each other.

I worship a terrorist? Which one is that?

You're lumping all Christians together of course. Some people do that to Muslims as well, and we have ended up with hate crimes against them because of attitudes like yours.

Jesus was tired and convicted of Sedition, which in modern day laws would make him a terrorist.

ALL Christian by definition worship Jesus therefore they all worship a terrorist.

Raggamuffin wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

islam is unique in the way it meets all comments about how violent it can be with extreme shows of violence, normally by burning someones flag or expending countless ak47 rounds in the air, lets face it how could that be misconstrued...

You mean that some Muslims do that kind of thing. You don't read about the ones who don't of course. I think you just proved my point really.

OK       
Maybe your a decent Christian (I'll see If I can put in a good word with the Rainbow Serpent for you   )

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I worship a terrorist? Which one is that?

You're lumping all Christians together of course. Some people do that to Muslims as well, and we have ended up with hate crimes against them because of attitudes like yours.

Jesus was tired and convicted of Sedition, which in modern day laws would make him a terrorist.

ALL Christian by definition worship Jesus therefore they all worship a terrorist.

  

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Raggamuffin, perhaps in history people never heard of the evil of religion due to firstly ignarance and then the heresy was often a criminal act.

Going way back Christians murdered pagans and forced them to convert in Saxon England; Mary I burned Protestants over their beliefs; the Spanish Inquisition and Conquistadors murdered many around the world in the name of the Christian God.

Ignorance is the only way you can not know about the evils committed by Christianity.

I was talking about my own childhood when I said religion used to be more innocent.

I know dreadful things have been done in the name of Christianity, but is that a good reason to condemn all Christians?

If you were talking solely about your own child hood I may have jumped the gun.

But It has only been really 50 years since laws stop Christian destroying, Sacred sites and forcing Natives to convert to get handouts. In Australia there influence Caused the Gov't to take half castes (anything but pure aboriginal) Children away from their mothers and force them to be raised Christian. In Christian Boarding houses, Which then exposed them to all the paedophiles (and yes there are people alive today getting compensation for BOTH, A LOT of suffering All in the name of Jesus Christ         )

AND by supporting the power structures that did and still do terrible things it is a reason to 'condemn all Christians'... Although Like your Previous Post, We All should remember that every one is a individual and some may have more good sense than the group they have lumped themselves with        

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I worship a terrorist? Which one is that?

You're lumping all Christians together of course. Some people do that to Muslims as well, and we have ended up with hate crimes against them because of attitudes like yours.

Jesus was tired and convicted of Sedition, which in modern day laws would make him a terrorist.

ALL Christian by definition worship Jesus therefore they all worship a terrorist.

that's the most ignorant thing I have ever read yet. Jesus described as a terrorist for being kind loving compassionate and even suffering on a cross willingly . You must really hate Christians and Jesus to even think like that and that's very worrying .

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I was talking about my own childhood when I said religion used to be more innocent.

I know dreadful things have been done in the name of Christianity, but is that a good reason to condemn all Christians?

If you were talking solely about your own child hood I may have jumped the gun.

But It has only been really 50 years since laws stop Christian destroying, Sacred sites and forcing Natives to convert to get handouts. In Australia there influence Caused the Gov't to take half castes (anything but pure aboriginal) Children away from their mothers and force them to be raised Christian. In Christian Boarding houses, Which then exposed them to all the paedophiles (and yes there are people alive today getting compensation for BOTH, A LOT of suffering All in the name of Jesus Christ         )

AND by supporting the power structures that did and still do terrible things it is a reason to 'condemn all Christians'... Although Like your Previous Post, We All should remember that every one is a individual and some may have more good sense than the group they have lumped themselves with        

I did say earlier than one doesn't have to be a member of an organisation to be a Christian. One can have faith and never set foot in a church or support any particular religious group. I think you're talking about structured religious organisations rather than Christianity itself.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


Jesus was tired and convicted of Sedition, which in modern day laws would make him a terrorist.

ALL Christian by definition worship Jesus therefore they all worship a terrorist.

  

Don't Worry Moses and Mohammad were both terrorists too.

Moses is pretty obvious they are fucking proud of it, Ramses the Second is Considered one of the greatest Rulers of Egypt and reigned over an era of peace and prosperity And there is Moses threatening to kill all the first born Children.         

and Mohammad is... but he was far more successful  , He was declared the equivalent of a terrorist by the Gov't of Mecca which sent soldiers to kill him but instead he converted them and they became the core of his army. After years he ended up taking over Mecca so.. never convicted because he over throw the people that were calling him a terrorist.      

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

  

Don't Worry Moses and Mohammad were both terrorists too.

Moses is pretty obvious they are fucking proud of it, Ramses the Second is Considered one of the greatest Rulers of Egypt and reigned over an era of peace and prosperity And there is Moses threatening to kill all the first born Children.         

and Mohammad is... but he was far more successful  , He was declared the equivalent of a terrorist by the Gov't of Mecca which sent soldiers to kill him but instead he converted them and they became the core of his army. After years he ended up taking over Mecca so.. never convicted because he over throw the people that were calling him a terrorist.      

There is no comparison between Jesus and Moses, or Jesus and Mohammed. Moses and Mohammed were just men, Jesus is not.

Raggamuffin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


If you were talking solely about your own child hood I may have jumped the gun.

But It has only been really 50 years since laws stop Christian destroying, Sacred sites and forcing Natives to convert to get handouts. In Australia there influence Caused the Gov't to take half castes (anything but pure aboriginal) Children away from their mothers and force them to be raised Christian. In Christian Boarding houses, Which then exposed them to all the paedophiles (and yes there are people alive today getting compensation for BOTH, A LOT of suffering All in the name of Jesus Christ         )

AND by supporting the power structures that did and still do terrible things it is a reason to 'condemn all Christians'... Although Like your Previous Post, We All should remember that every one is a individual and some may have more good sense than the group they have lumped themselves with        

I did say earlier than one doesn't have to be a member of an organisation to be a Christian. One can have faith and never set foot in a church or support any particular religious group. I think you're talking about structured religious organisations rather than Christianity itself.

Not really....
The Bible still say your going to hell. And you still give them political support for the agendas (well YOU might not    do you support gay marriage?) if you just want to believe in the sky giant (monotheist god) but will throw away the bible AND use logic and reasoning in your decision making, that is fine in my opinion.



And regarding Moses Jesus and Mohammad
Jesus is the 'Only the Son of God' if you read up to book two (or only seen up to Empire Strikes back  ::lightsab::  )
But Book 3 (Return of the Jedi  ::lightsab:: ) Explains Jesus was a Prophet Like Moses and we are all Children of God, therefore Jesus was the Son of God, but so is every other man.          

If you can read all 3 equally (without prejudicing your own faith) Mohammad is the best except for the marrying a child part when he was an old man   

Still None are as good as the Iliad, the Aeneid or the Maxims of Ptahhotep

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I did say earlier than one doesn't have to be a member of an organisation to be a Christian. One can have faith and never set foot in a church or support any particular religious group. I think you're talking about structured religious organisations rather than Christianity itself.

Not really....
The Bible still say your going to hell. And you still give them political support for the agendas (well YOU might not    do you support gay marriage?) if you just want to believe in the sky giant (monotheist god) but will throw away the bible AND use logic and reasoning in your decision making, that is fine in my opinion.



And regarding Moses Jesus and Mohammad
Jesus is the 'Only the Son of God' if you read up to book two (or only seen up to Empire Strikes back  ::lightsab::  )
But Book 3 (Return of the Jedi  ::lightsab:: ) Explains Jesus was a Prophet Like Moses and we are all Children of God, therefore Jesus was the Son of God, but so is every other man.          

If you can read all 3 equally (without prejudicing your own faith) Mohammad is the best except for the marrying a child part when he was an old man   

Still None are as good as the Iliad, the Aeneid or the Maxims of Ptahhotep

Who said anything about throwing away the Bible? One can have a Bible at home you know - you don't need to be a member of a religious organisation to have one.

Jesus is not merely a prophet - IMO.

Re gay marriage, I have no objection to it, but I think that religious organisations should be able to choose whether to conduct them or not. Is this where you tell me that I'm "cherry picking" from the Bible?  

mohammed is the best, the one who was actually a terrorist..lol this must b a wind up... :D :D :D 

Star Wars was good, but I kind of lost track after that.  :D 

Raggamuffin wrote:Star Wars was good, but I kind of lost track after that.  :D 

lol I haven't seen Star wars of course I know about it but yeah , I lost track also   

scrat wrote:

nice photo. :D 

heavenly father wrote:

scrat wrote:

nice photo. :D 

Judgement day, this church was built on top of a pagan ceremonial mound, in fact most churches are built near pagan ceremonial mounds, the same as most Christian ceremonies are pagan, although some might argue that the church itself desecrated a spiritual ground and thus remains a ruin.

scrat wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

nice photo. :D 

Judgement day, this church was built on top of a pagan ceremonial mound, in fact most churches are built near pagan ceremonial mounds, the same as most Christian ceremonies are pagan, although some might argue that the church itself desecrated a spiritual ground and thus remains a ruin.

I'm aware of that, I think it was because that area already held some significance to the population so when i was"overtaken" it will still seem normal..

problem is if we avoided every burial ground for all time we could never build anywhere..

the church in Christianity has always been the people no the building but none the less buildings have been erected.

Ragamuffin no one is condemning all Christians. It is the religion that is the problem.

Eilzel wrote:Ragamuffin no one is condemning all Christians. It is the religion that is the problem.

there is nothing wrong with the tenets of the Christian faith but some people will always try to alter them to their own use or ends it is human nature.

Eilzel wrote:Ragamuffin no one is condemning all Christians. It is the religion that is the problem.

It's a fine line isn't it? I've been told that I support a terrorist because I'm Christian.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

  

Don't Worry Moses and Mohammad were both terrorists too.

Moses is pretty obvious they are fucking proud of it, Ramses the Second is Considered one of the greatest Rulers of Egypt and reigned over an era of peace and prosperity And there is Moses threatening to kill all the first born Children.         

and Mohammad is... but he was far more successful  , He was declared the equivalent of a terrorist by the Gov't of Mecca which sent soldiers to kill him but instead he converted them and they became the core of his army. After years he ended up taking over Mecca so.. never convicted because he over throw the people that were calling him a terrorist.      

...I'm not religious but this is the first ever time I've heard anyone say Jesus or god were terrorists!!   

I note you said the Brits were brutal to other people from other nations, but I believe every country was brutal at one time or another to others ...
Weren't the Australians brutal to the Aborigine Australians and steal their land?

Joy Division wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


Don't Worry Moses and Mohammad were both terrorists too.

Moses is pretty obvious they are fucking proud of it, Ramses the Second is Considered one of the greatest Rulers of Egypt and reigned over an era of peace and prosperity And there is Moses threatening to kill all the first born Children.         

and Mohammad is... but he was far more successful  , He was declared the equivalent of a terrorist by the Gov't of Mecca which sent soldiers to kill him but instead he converted them and they became the core of his army. After years he ended up taking over Mecca so.. never convicted because he over throw the people that were calling him a terrorist.      

...I'm not religious but this is the first ever time I've heard anyone say Jesus or god were terrorists!!   

I note you said the Brits were brutal to other  people from other nations, but I believe every country was brutal at one time or another to others ...
Weren't the Australians brutal to the Aborigine Australians and steal their land?

it shocked me too, Jesus a terrorist...

or the white man and the native american...

heavenly father wrote:

Joy Division wrote:



...I'm not religious but this is the first ever time I've heard anyone say Jesus or god were terrorists!!   

I note you said the Brits were brutal to other  people from other nations, but I believe every country was brutal at one time or another to others ...
Weren't the Australians brutal to the Aborigine Australians and steal their land?

it shocked me too, Jesus a terrorist...

or the white man and the native american...

...indeed Favva, I was like    

Just wanted to ask you Favva, or anyone else savvy on religion....

If a baby or child dies, do  they stand before God before judgement ?

Joy Division wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

it shocked me too, Jesus a terrorist...

or the white man and the native american...

...indeed Favva, I was like    

Just wanted to ask you Favva, or anyone else savvy on religion....

If a baby or child dies, do  they stand before God before judgement ?

no they are innocents and go straight to heaven ,,

heavenly father wrote:

Joy Division wrote:



...indeed Favva, I was like    

Just wanted to ask you Favva, or anyone else savvy on religion....

If a baby or child dies, do  they stand before God before judgement ?

no they are innocents and go straight to heaven ,,

That's what I was hoping to hear..because they are innocent

PhilDidge wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:Yes God forgives gays why wouldn't he , as a believer I do believe that those who don't believer in Jesus will be judged , but its never too late to repent and ask for forgiveness .

So all anyone has to do is wait until their death bed, after living a life of debauchery and repent, whilst many other people who lead a pious life yet do not believe in him are condemned.
It does not get anymore illogical than that

  

Not quite, 'Didge...

In those more traditionalist beliefs the "day of judgement" isn't on one's death bed ~ but rather a few million years down the track, with the "End of Days"..

AND the Judgement Day" cometh !  ::alahoo:: 

Beekeeper wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:



So all anyone has to do is wait until their death bed, after living a life of debauchery and repent, whilst many other people who lead a pious life yet do not believe in him are condemned.
It does not get anymore illogical than that

  

Not quite, 'Didge...

In those more traditionalist beliefs the "day of judgement" isn't on one's death bed ~ but rather a few million years down the track, with the "End of Days"..

AND the Judgement Day" cometh !    ::alahoo:: 

That differs somewhat from what Favva says Bee!!...

Bless you.  

Maine coon lover wrote:

Joy Division wrote:


..I must admit I agree with you FTL, while some do practice religion peacefully, many others do not and like you say use it for violence , control , killing etc...

Funny thing is a while back on ADO, made a thread titled....' Who was around first, God or Allah?'....and not one of our religious experts were able to give a definite , clear answer!!  ::smthg:: 

God . allah is a false god

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

God . allah is a false god

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

I think she's been fine here, going by the majority of her posts SM.

Catman wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

I think she's been fine here, going by the majority of her posts SM.

Shes always 'fine' when she starts off.

And judging by her post that i have quoted she isnt ' fine'

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

God . allah is a false god

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

I don't know who they are. He/she seems fine to me.

Raggamuffin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

I don't know who they are. He/she seems fine to me.

She is from the old Sky forums, and the partner of HF.

She isn't anything like him though, and has a compassionate side to her.

Catman wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't know who they are. He/she seems fine to me.

She is from the old Sky forums, and the partner of HF.

She isn't anything like him though, and has a compassionate side to her.

Who is HF?

Catman wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't know who they are. He/she seems fine to me.

She is from the old Sky forums, and the partner of HF.

She isn't anything like him though, and has a compassionate side to her.

Really? Because it was her not her wanker husband who said those things about my children Phil.

She also has said pretty nasty things about Sassy's late daughter. Id be very careful if i were you.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Catman wrote:

She is from the old Sky forums, and the partner of HF.

She isn't anything like him though, and has a compassionate side to her.

Really? Because it was her not her wanker husband who said those things about my children Phil.

She also has said pretty nasty things about Sassy's late daughter. Id be very careful uf i were you.

Well if I see anyone saying anything about Sassy's young lass I will have more than something to say...no matter who they are.

I don't think they are going to be doing that JD, they probably don't want to add to my dossier.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Catman wrote:

She is from the old Sky forums, and the partner of HF.

She isn't anything like him though, and has a compassionate side to her.

Really? Because it was her not her wanker husband who said those things about my children Phil.

She also has said pretty nasty things about Sassy's late daughter. Id be very careful if i were you.

Point taken SM.

She was very supportive of me when my mum died.

Catman wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Really? Because it was her not her wanker husband who said those things about my children Phil.

She also has said pretty nasty things about Sassy's late daughter. Id be very careful if i were you.

Point taken SM.

She was very supportive of me when my mum died.

Ok

Maine coon lover wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


Jesus was tired and convicted of Sedition, which in modern day laws would make him a terrorist.

ALL Christian by definition worship Jesus therefore they all worship a terrorist.

that's the most ignorant thing I have ever read yet. Jesus described as a terrorist for being kind loving compassionate and even suffering on a cross willingly . You must really hate Christians and Jesus to even think like that and that's very worrying .

For inciting people to Rebel against a legal gov't, he was executed like a common criminal..
So Bin Laden wasn't a terrorist Because of all the Good things (from a Muslim perspective) he did in Afghanistan in the 80/90's?
How does what you said in anyway change the fact that we was a terrorist, he held illegal rallies to convince people to resist the gov't. the bible tells of him Actively inciting terrorism (from the perspective of the legal gov't of the time)

He is no different than the Imam comign to London and preaching that you need sharia laws.

heavenly father wrote:mohammed is the best, the one who was actually a terrorist..lol this must b a wind up... :D :D :D 

No HF, it is no wind up I have read all the books equally already knowing that I Beleive in something more accurate. Mohammad was the best because he was the most successful and generally what he says makes more sense. Additonally the Koran is has been edited less, you do have the majority of the work being from a single source, the bible as a document is pretty poor because of the mixed authours and obvious editting.

the Idea that God is the father of all things is also expressed in the Bible, You will not find a quote form Jesus that suggests he is the Only Son of God. Mohammad clears this up in the Koran , The Koran is quite full of praise for Jesus you know? Thats why Mulsims don't attack him like Christian do Mohammad. It clearly says he was a very important prophet.

veya_victaous wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

that's the most ignorant thing I have ever read yet. Jesus described as a terrorist for being kind loving compassionate and even suffering on a cross willingly . You must really hate Christians and Jesus to even think like that and that's very worrying .

For inciting people to Rebel against a legal gov't, he was executed like a common criminal..
So Bin Laden wasn't a terrorist Because of all the Good things (from a Muslim perspective) he did in Afghanistan in the 80/90's?
How does what you said in anyway change the fact that we was a terrorist, he held illegal rallies to convince people to resist the gov't. the bible tells of him Actively inciting terrorism (from the perspective of the legal gov't of the time)

He is no different than the Imam comign to London and preaching that you need sharia laws.

...I never knew there was a government back then   

Does it say anywhere in the bible that Jesus killed anyone or was unjustly violent or caused others to be?

heck of a terrorist, love your neighbour, if someone strikes you on the left cheek offer him the right cheek to, if someone ask for your shirt give them your jacket too, if someone bids you to walk a mile walk two...

yep a real hard face terrorist...

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Maine coon lover wrote:

God . allah is a false god

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?

@SM
dont worry that ust comes across has highly uneducated from Maine Coon


Allah = God

the Chrisitan God isn't even just called God, despite what these uneducated narrow minded individuals think     
he is Jeahova and Jeahova is Allah.

heavenly father wrote:heck of a terrorist, love your neighbour, if someone strikes you on the left cheek offer him the right cheek to, if someone ask for your shirt give them your jacket too, if someone bids you to walk a mile walk two...

yep a real hard face terrorist...

Deny the divine Ceaser, the State deity.  
that is the same as someone in the middle ages refusing to swear on a bible, saying it is lies (which it is) and the christians did the same they put to person to death.

OF course Jesus is worse because he is inciting other people to also deny the State Deity.

You don't actually have a point? you know terrorist/freedom fighter are interchangable depending on perspective?