Austrian police force women to uncover their faces as country's 'burka ban' comes into force

by HoratioTarr Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

A Muslim woman was forced to remove her veil today as the ban on full-face veils came into force in Austria.
Items concealing the face in public places, such as the full Islamic veil, medical masks and scarves to cover faces have been outlawed.
Only under certain conditions, such as 'at cultural events', will people be able to wear them in public.
The laws are aimed at 'ensuring the cohesion of society in an open society' and anyone violating the rules could be hit with a €150 fine.

On Sunday, a Muslim woman defying the rule was spotted being told to remove her veil in the town of Zell am See.
In a ruling announcing the ban, officials in Vienna said: 'Acceptance and respect of Austrian values are basic conditions for successful cohabitation between the majority Austrian population and people from third countries living in Austria.'
The measures, similar to those in other European Union countries, also apply to visitors even though large numbers of Arab tourists holiday in the Alpine country.

How the burqa ban has divided opinion across Europe

There is no law restricting the wearing of garments for religious reasons.
However in March 2007 the education ministry published directives allowing directors of public establishments and denominational schools to ban the niqab veil.

Judges have on occasion refused to hear veiled women because they could not verify their identity.
The legislation, which has passed the lower house and now has to be approved by the Senate, bans the wearing of burkas, helmets and face masks on public transport as well as education, healthcare and government buildings.
The bill was proposed by Interior Minister Ronald Plasterk last year, as he believed clothing that covered the face hindered communication in public services and could pose a security threat. Violations could result in a fine of up to 410 euros.

Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere has proposed a partial burka ban. De Maiziere, one of Merkel's closest allies, said the ban would cover 'places where it is necessary for our society's coexistence' including government offices, schools and universities, courtrooms as well as demonstrations.

The first European country to ban the full-veil in public spaces with a law 'banning the hiding of the face in public spaces', with a law that took effect in April 2011.

The European Court of Human Rights upheld the burka ban in 2014, rejecting arguments that outlawing full-face veils breached religious freedom. The law has resulted in around 1,500 arrests in the past five years, and violations can result in fines of up to 150 euros.

Earlier this year, several French towns sought to ban burkinis, the full-body Islamic swimsuit. The move was successfully challenged in all but one case on the island of Corsica.
The wearing of the full veil is governed by a June 1, 2011 law. It prohibits 'appearing in places accessible to the public with a face masked or hidden, in whole or in part, in such a way as to be unidentifiable'. Exceptions exist, in particular where the workplace requires the face to be hidden, or for the carnival season. Violations can result in fines and/or up to seven days in jail.

In September, Bulgarian lawmakers approved a law that bans wearing in public clothing that partially or completely covers the face, with exceptions for health or professional reasons. Initial violations result in a fine of roughly 100 euros, while subsequent violations are fined the equivalent of 750 euros.

There is currently a debate over a 1975 law aimed at protecting public order that makes it illegal to cover one's face in public places and the provision applies to the veil, as well as motorcycle helmets and other masks.
The anti-immigrant Northern League presented in October a draft law in the Lombardy region around Milan that would ban the burka, niqab and burkini.

A region in the Italian Riviera is to ban women from wearing the Islamic niqab in hospitals and public offices.
Officials in the northern region of Liguria announced plans to enforce the ban in what is described as an attempt to defend women's freedom.

Switzerland's lower house narrowly approved in September a draft bill on a nationwide burka ban, but the measure remains far from becoming law. In the southern Tessin region however, the burka has been forbidden since July 1 and violators face a minimum fine of 100 Swiss francs.

Education Minister Torbjorn Roe Isaksen said in October that the government was seeking regulations prohibiting the full-face veil in schools and universities. Scandinavian neighbours such as Denmark and Sweden have allowed schools, administrations and companies to decide the issue for themselves, while there is no ban in Finland.
Three other countries that have not banned the burka are among those closest to the Middle East or North Africa - Greece, Portugal and Spain.

Morocco has banned the production and sale of burqa full-face Muslim veils for security reasons.
While there was no official announcement by authorities in the North African nation, the reports said the interior ministry order would take effect this week.

The ban has been imposed due to reports felons have been using the garment to help carry out their crimes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938126/Muslim-woman-forced-remove-veil-Austria.html

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:35 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:
Yes, so lets take away the small amount of freedom they have by banning it ....would it not be better to deal with the problem at source...ie an abusive husband, there are already laws to deal with abuse.

You should have watched the iman in the video I posted who stated it should be banned based on equality reasons.

You should watch it.

You do realize also that the face veil is banned in some Muslim majority countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country

Did you watch the video I posted where the Muslim man talked with such disdain and disrespect to the veil wearing woman BECAUSE she was wearing it?
Men who treat women like shit will do so no matter what she wears or doesn't wear to cover her face.

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:38 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

You should have watched the iman in the video I posted who stated it should be banned based on equality reasons.

You should watch it.

You do realize also that the face veil is banned in some Muslim majority countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country

Did you watch the video I posted where the Muslim man talked with such disdain and disrespect to the veil wearing woman BECAUSE she was wearing it?
Men who treat women like shit will do so no matter what she wears or doesn't wear to cover her face.

So you rightly think it was wrong for the man to disrespect the woman but respect the right of women to be indoctrinated through fear to believe they should cover up, or suffer in a make believe after life?

You seem to negate the reality here, of the idea behind the veil and Burka, which was formed to control women. So this belief is treating women like shit and even worse blaming them for their looks. Even more stupidly, teaching them this will detract sexual abusers.

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:39 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:

Good for them seriously, but what of the women who are only allowed out covered?
Where would that leave them?

Feeling sorry for them doesn't help though does it? It needs action. So that they are never in that position in the first place. So they have equality in every way.

That may work for the next generation, what of the ones now ?
What of the wives of the grooming gangs, who have had to silently put up with sexual diseases and God knows what whilst their husbands are out grooming and raping young girls?
Should they, if they wear the burka on their husbands insistence, be denied even the minute amount of freedom they have now?

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:42 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

Did you watch the video I posted where the Muslim man talked with such disdain and disrespect to the veil wearing woman BECAUSE she was wearing it?
Men who treat women like shit will do so no matter what she wears or doesn't wear to cover her face.

So you rightly think it was wrong for the man to disrespect the woman but respect the right of women to be indoctrinated through fear to believe they should cover up, or suffer in a make believe after life?

You seem to negate the reality here, of the idea behind the veil and Burka, which was formed to control women. So this belief is treating women like shit and even worse blaming them for their looks. Even more stupidly, teaching them this will detract sexual abusers.

My point was some men will treat women like dirt no matter what they wear.
Dictating what they MUST wear is as bad as dictating what they CANT wear imo.

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

So you rightly think it was wrong for the man to disrespect the woman but respect the right of women to be indoctrinated through fear to believe they should cover up, or suffer in a make believe after life?

You seem to negate the reality here, of the idea behind the veil and Burka, which was formed to control women. So this belief is treating women like shit and even worse blaming them for their looks. Even more stupidly, teaching them this will detract sexual abusers.

My point was some men will treat women like dirt no matter what they wear.
Dictating what they MUST wear is as bad as dictating what they CANT wear imo.

You are still missing the point.
These women are already being dictated what to wear through backward beliefs.

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:48 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

My point was some men will treat women like dirt no matter what they wear.
Dictating what they MUST wear is as bad as dictating what they CANT wear imo.

You are still missing the point.
These women are already being dictated what to wear through backward beliefs.

And some of the women choose to wear it.

In this country (which is the one we are discussing) it would be interesting to know just what % of women are told to wear it and how many choose to wear it.

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:51 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

You are still missing the point.
These women are already being dictated what to wear through backward beliefs.

And some of the women choose to wear it.

In this country (which is the one we are discussing) it would be interesting to know just what % of women are told to wear it and how many choose to wear it.

How is it a choice when they are being driven by fear to wear?
Its a belief they should cover up or they are sinning and thus fear being punished in an after life.
Thus fear drives them to wear.

Go back to the two videos I posted this moring and watch the first part where young Muslim girls are introctrinated to believe this.

When is this point going to sink in with you?

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:52 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

I think its obvious that if you are a Muslim woman, living amongst other Muslim women, being brought up in Muslim communities, you would have a clearer idea of how a Muslim woman thinks and acts than a none Muslim man who has probably garnered his opinions from google or the Daily Mail..

Then why not listen to ex-Muslims as well as Muslims then?

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:53 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

And some of the women choose to wear it.

In this country (which is the one we are discussing) it would be interesting to know just what % of women are told to wear it and how many choose to wear it.

How is it a choice when they are being driven by fear to wear?
Its a belief they should cover up or they are sinning and thus fear being punished in an after life.
Thus fear drives them to wear.

Go back to the two videos I posted this moring and watch the first part where young Muslim girls are introctrinated to believe this.

When is this point going to sink in with you?

Maybe around the same time it will take you to realise than many women wear the face coverings by CHOICE and for many different reasons.

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:55 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

How is it a choice when they are being driven by fear to wear?
Its a belief they should cover up or they are sinning and thus fear being punished in an after life.
Thus fear drives them to wear.

Go back to the two videos I posted this moring and watch the first part where young Muslim girls are introctrinated to believe this.

When is this point going to sink in with you?

Maybe around the same time it will take you to realise than many women wear the face coverings by CHOICE and for many different reasons.

How is it a choice when fear makes them wear?

They believe if they do not cover up, they are sinning and fear facing punishment.

Again when is this going to sink in?

The choice is on the belief they follow. That belief commands them to cover up.

Thus they are being dictated what to wear

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:57 pm

Didge wrote:
gelico wrote:

nobody lives by leviticus or deuteronomy or any other book in the bible though syl

christianity is merely the church

the state is a different thing altogether

you do not have that in islam. the religion and the state are the same thing entirely and every law made comes from whatever interpretation they put on the hadiths or koran

that's the difference

Its not the same thing in all Muslim majority countries and basically what you are doing is claiming all Muslims, are extremists. Talk about ensuring the world then becomes further divided.

Your idea to class Islam as terrorist has no bases and makes little sense. As you are then classing all Muslims as terrorists. Which is absurd. Basically sticking two fingers up to Muslims who flee oppression.

i have not done any such thing,

so basically, you cannot differentiate between an individual human being and a set of rules

it's the set of rules which is bad not the individual

get back to me when you understand that basic concept

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:01 pm

gelico wrote:
Didge wrote:

Its not the same thing in all Muslim majority countries and basically what you are doing is claiming all Muslims, are extremists. Talk about ensuring the world then becomes further divided.

Your idea to class Islam as terrorist has no bases and makes little sense. As you are then classing all Muslims as terrorists. Which is absurd. Basically sticking two fingers up to Muslims who flee oppression.

i have not done any such thing,

so basically, you cannot differentiate between an individual human being and a set of rules

it's the set of rules which is bad not the individual

get back to me when you understand that basic concept

If you make Islam a terrorist organisation, when its a belief, which is varied by how it is followed and interpreted, you thus make all branches of Islam, terrorism. Thus making them all terrorists.

The beliefs is what is the problem

Now do all Muslims follow the beliefs the same or differently?

Example, not all Muslim women believe they are commanded to wear the hijab. Others disagree. Even though there is nothing in the Quran on this.

We already have certain Islamic extremist groups classed as terrorists based on their beliefs.

The ironic thing here is that you actually are being comparable to Saudi Arabia, which bans other religious beliefs.

Let me remind you Gelico, we live in a secular society, not one that is Totalitarian.

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Didge wrote:
gelico wrote:

i have not done any such thing,

so basically, you cannot differentiate between an individual human being and a set of rules

it's the set of rules which is bad not the individual

get back to me when you understand that basic concept

If you make Islam a terrorist organisation, when its a belief, which is varied by how it is followed and interpreted, you thus make all branches of Islam, terrorism. Thus making them all terrorists.

The beliefs is what is the problem

Now do all Muslims follow the beliefs the same or differently?

Example, not all Muslim women believe they are commanded to wear the hijab. Others disagree. Even though there is nothing in the Quran on this.

We already have certain Islamic extremist groups classed as terrorists based on their beliefs.

The ironic thing here is that you actually are being comparable to Saudi Arabia, which bans other religious beliefs.

Let me remind you Gelico, we live in a secular society, not one that is Totalitarian.

any branch of islam still revolves around mohammed who was a terrorist

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:16 pm

gelico wrote:
Didge wrote:

If you make Islam a terrorist organisation, when its a belief, which is varied by how it is followed and interpreted, you thus make all branches of Islam, terrorism. Thus making them all terrorists.

The beliefs is what is the problem

Now do all Muslims follow the beliefs the same or differently?

Example, not all Muslim women believe they are commanded to wear the hijab. Others disagree. Even though there is nothing in the Quran on this.

We already have certain Islamic extremist groups classed as terrorists based on their beliefs.

The ironic thing here is that you actually are being comparable to Saudi Arabia, which bans other religious beliefs.

Let me remind you Gelico, we live in a secular society, not one that is Totalitarian.

any branch of islam still revolves around mohammed who was a terrorist

He was a minor warlord that committed as I would call it, war crimes. as we would class them today.

So by your reasoning is Richard the Lionheart a terrorist?

How about Henry V?

The problem within Islam, is that they teach Muslims to emulate Muhammad and worse basically elevate him to deity standing. As they have by classing his deeds as if comparable to the Sura's of the Quran. This is where most of the problems are found is more so in the hadiths. Thoug the Quran is bad enough. They take unreliable stories and defiy the unsubstanciated deeds of Muhammad, as if commands from Allah. Neglecting that this then makes the Quran redundent itself. It makes the Quran an incomplete book and also their deity incompetant. Or it makes Muslims that deify Muhammad through the hadiths as in conflict with the Quran itself. The problem with the Abrahamic religions, is they teach a religious apartheid system. That believers are above non-believers. It plays on the fears and insecurities of people to then control them through fear.

We did not progress in the west by banning, but by challenging poor beliefs.

by Syl Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:48 pm

Didge wrote:
gelico wrote:

any branch of islam still revolves around mohammed who was a terrorist

He was a minor warlord that committed as I would call it, war crimes. as we would class them today.

So by your reasoning is Richard the Lionheart a terrorist?

How about Henry V?

The problem within Islam, is that they teach Muslims to emulate Muhammad and worse basically elevate him to deity standing. As they have by classing his deeds as if comparable to the Sura's of the Quran. This is where most of the problems are found is more so in the hadiths. Thoug the Quran is bad enough. They take unreliable stories and defiy the unsubstanciated deeds of Muhammad, as if commands from Allah. Neglecting that this then makes the Quran redundent itself. It makes the Quran an incomplete book and also their deity incompetant. Or it makes Muslims that deify Muhammad through the hadiths as in conflict with the Quran itself. The problem with the Abrahamic religions, is they teach a religious apartheid system. That believers are above non-believers. It plays on the fears and insecurities of people to then control them through fear.

We did not progress in the west by banning, but by challenging poor beliefs.

Unless its the burka? Rolling Eyes

by Guest Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

He was a minor warlord that committed as I would call it, war crimes. as we would class them today.

So by your reasoning is Richard the Lionheart a terrorist?

How about Henry V?

The problem within Islam, is that they teach Muslims to emulate Muhammad and worse basically elevate him to deity standing. As they have by classing his deeds as if comparable to the Sura's of the Quran. This is where most of the problems are found is more so in the hadiths. Thoug the Quran is bad enough. They take unreliable stories and defiy the unsubstanciated deeds of Muhammad, as if commands from Allah. Neglecting that this then makes the Quran redundent itself. It makes the Quran an incomplete book and also their deity incompetant. Or it makes Muslims that deify Muhammad through the hadiths as in conflict with the Quran itself. The problem with the Abrahamic religions, is they teach a religious apartheid system. That believers are above non-believers. It plays on the fears and insecurities of people to then control them through fear.

We did not progress in the west by banning, but by challenging poor beliefs.

Unless its the burka?

I do not believe in banning

I have shown a reason to ban based off inequality

You clearly never watched the video

More to the point you back and argue to defend men controlling women.

Do I need to say again how this belief was formed to make women fear, to thus control them to wear the hijab and ace veil.

Now I once said to sexy, why do not Muslim women who claim to feminists. Take a stand and refuse to wear the hijab and veil, until countries stop foring this on their Muslim sisters.

She actually argued against this.

Which shows she would rather wrongly believe Muslim women conditioned to believe they should wear have more rights than those forced to wear, because she places her beliefs over the plight of those oppressed.

That is all you need to understand about the problems of religion.

by HoratioTarr Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:46 am

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Feeling sorry for them doesn't help though does it? It needs action. So that they are never in that position in the first place. So they have equality in every way.

That may work for the next generation, what of the ones now ?
What of the wives of the grooming gangs, who have had to silently put up with sexual diseases and God knows what whilst their husbands are out grooming and raping young girls?
Should they, if they wear the burka on their husbands insistence, be denied even the minute amount of freedom they have now?

There's no need for any of this to be going on in this country though. That's the whole point. These women have a
chance to say no...but guess what stops them. Nobody spoke out about this ghastly crime, the Muslim community kept quiet because these women are frightened to death of the men who control them. This is unacceptable in our society. Doesn't matter what faith you are.

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:19 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:

That may work for the next generation, what of the ones now ?
What of the wives of the grooming gangs, who have had to silently put up with sexual diseases and God knows what whilst their husbands are out grooming and raping young girls?
Should they, if they wear the burka on their husbands insistence, be denied even the minute amount of freedom they have now?

There's no need for any of this to be going on in this country though. That's the whole point. These women have a
chance to say no...but guess what stops them. Nobody spoke out about this ghastly crime, the Muslim community kept quiet because these women are frightened to death of the men who control them. This is unacceptable in our society. Doesn't matter what faith you are.

Of course its unacceptable, it isn't only Muslim women who are controlled by men in this country either, but they do seem to be the ones who mix into society less than others.

Take away their face coverings and they will be allowed to mix even less....will that help them?

I heard from a nurse once that many Muslim women never have intimate health checks like routine smears or mammograms, education and advice is always available, I can imagine these women will be even more ignorant of the health risks if they are not allowed out...IF the burka is ever banned.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:27 pm

the bhurka if anything allows Muslim men to beat their wives with impunity.

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:32 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:the bhurka if anything allows Muslim men to beat their wives with impunity.

Not in this country it doesn't.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:34 pm

Syl wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:the bhurka if anything allows Muslim men to beat their wives with impunity.

Not in this country it doesn't.

do you possess x-ray eyes to see bruising under the veil??

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:37 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Syl wrote:

Not in this country it doesn't.

do you possess x-ray eyes to see bruising under the veil??

Do you really think wife beaters wouldn't treat their wives the same with or without a veil?

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:55 pm

Syl wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

do you possess x-ray eyes to see bruising under the veil??

Do you really think wife beaters wouldn't treat their wives the same with or without a veil?

not the point is it??

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:09 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Syl wrote:

Do you really think wife beaters wouldn't treat their wives the same with or without a veil?

not the point is it??

Well its the point you made, I was just answering it.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Syl wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

not the point is it??

Well its the point you made, I was just answering it.

you missed the point i was making

again

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:09 pm

You implied the burka would hide the bruises of a beaten wife.
I replied that a man so inclined would beat his wife anyway...whether she was wearing a burka or not.

Change the goalposts if you like, but be honest about it.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:13 pm

Syl wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

not the point is it??

Well its the point you made, I was just answering it.

Smelly is actually making a very interesting point here.

As you well know it is allowed within Islam for husbands to beat their wivies.

Now of course not all Muslims take this literally, but the more literal the believer. Like Wahhabism, which has the belief women should cover up wearing the face viel, they also back the right for men to beat their wivies. Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

Now when a woman is a victim of domestic violence, there is clearly signs on her body and face to this and all the make up in the world will not hide that. Of course a victim of this may in fear try to explain away the bruises as an accident that has occured. But it will make people sit up if this is a regular occurance to question if something more sinister is going on. To offer help and advice for those.

With the Burka, this would never ever be seen.
That woman would then continually suffer in silence.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

Well its the point you made, I was just answering it.

Smelly is actually making a very interesting point here.

As you well know it is allowed within Islam for husbands to beat their wivies.

Now of course not all Muslims take this literally, but the more literal the believer. Like Wahhabism, which has the belief women should cover up wearing the face viel, they also back the right for men to beat their wivies. Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

Now when a woman is a victim of domestic violence, there is clearly signs on her body and face to this and all the make up in the world will not hide that. Of course a victim of this may in fear try to explain away the bruises as an accident that has occured. But it will make people sit up if this is a regular occurance to question if something more sinister is going on. To offer help and advice for those.

With the Burka, this would never ever be seen.
That woman would then continually suffer in silence.

green

very well put

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:23 pm

The law of the land over rides Islam law in this country....so in fact husbands are NOT allowed to beat their wives.

A controlling husband...one who thinks he has the right to beat his wife and insists she covers her face, would probably not even let her out with an uncovered face if the burka was banned.

But If he did, he would find plenty other places to hit her.

A pig I knew used to regularly kick his pregnant wife in the stomach and between her legs to 'discipline' her.
No bruises on show...job done.

by Original Quill Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:26 pm

Didge wrote:Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

How interesting. Do you have any statistics to verify this? Or is this just speculation.

Didge wrote:With the Burka, this would never ever be seen.
That woman would then continually suffer in silence.

Would you recommend women go naked? Or would bikinis do?

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:30 pm

Syl wrote:The law of the land over rides Islam law in this country....so in fact husbands are NOT allowed to beat their wives.

A controlling husband...one who thinks he has the right to beat his wife and insists she covers her face, would probably not even let her out with an uncovered face if the burka was banned.

But If he did, he would find plenty other places to hit her.

A pig I knew used to regularly kick his pregnant wife in the stomach and between her legs to 'discipline' her.
No bruises on show...job done.

The law of the land certainly does overide Islamic law, but tell that to wahhabist believers.

You see what you fail to grasp Syl, is that those who believe they are commanded to wear the face veil, are the most literal Islamic beleivers. Who are the most homophobic, antisemitic and believe they are chattle to men. They are indoctrinated to believe this.

He can let her go out, as she believes he can beat her and that going out covered up, is never going to raise any questions, is it?

Well are you telling me, your friend was not in pain and was able to hide this pain in her stomach?

How did you know she was suffering domestic violence?

Again you use a strawman argument, neglecting that many women suffering domestic violence will often be hit in the face. You cannot make your argument based on one individual you know.

The point is two fold here. One these Wahhabist Muslim women will not come forward if beaten and wearing the burka and nobody will have any clue that they have been.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:34 pm

gelico wrote:
Didge wrote:

Smelly is actually making a very interesting point here.

As you well know it is allowed within Islam for husbands to beat their wivies.

Now of course not all Muslims take this literally, but the more literal the believer. Like Wahhabism, which has the belief women should cover up wearing the face viel, they also back the right for men to beat their wivies. Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

Now when a woman is a victim of domestic violence, there is clearly signs on her body and face to this and all the make up in the world will not hide that. Of course a victim of this may in fear try to explain away the bruises as an accident that has occured. But it will make people sit up if this is a regular occurance to question if something more sinister is going on. To offer help and advice for those.

With the Burka, this would never ever be seen.
That woman would then continually suffer in silence.

green

very well put

Thanks Gelico

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

How interesting. Do you have any statistics to verify this? Or is this just speculation.

Didge wrote:With the Burka, this would never ever be seen.
That woman would then continually suffer in silence.

Would you recommend women go naked? Or would bikinis do?

How an absurd a question.

Wahhabist believe they can beat their wivies

Why then would there be statistics on this?

Take your time

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:37 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:The law of the land over rides Islam law in this country....so in fact husbands are NOT allowed to beat their wives.

A controlling husband...one who thinks he has the right to beat his wife and insists she covers her face, would probably not even let her out with an uncovered face if the burka was banned.

But If he did, he would find plenty other places to hit her.

A pig I knew used to regularly kick his pregnant wife in the stomach and between her legs to 'discipline' her.
No bruises on show...job done.

The law of the land certainly does overide Islamic law, but tell that to wahhabist believers.

You see what you fail to grasp Syl, is that those who believe they are commanded to wear the face veil, are the most literal Islamic beleivers. Who are the most homophobic, antisemitic and believe they are chattle to men. They are indoctrinated to believe this.

He can let her go out, as she believes he can beat her and that going out covered up, is never going to raise any questions, is it?

Well are you telling me, your friend was not in pain and was able to hide this pain in her stomach?

How did you know she was suffering domestic violence?

Again you use a strawman argument, neglecting that many women suffering domestic violence will often be hit in the face. You cannot make your argument based on one individual you know.

The point is two fold here. One these Wahhabist Muslim women will not come forward if beaten and wearing the burka and nobody will have any clue that they have been.

Women wear a face covering for different reasons.
The ones who do so out of fear need help....do you really think banning the burka will help them when they are so controlled?

I knew of the woman because I knew her sister....its a long time ago when police called cases like this 'domestics' and tended to keep out of the situation. Of course she was in pain, she had one miscarriage but was soon pregnant again....btw she was white as was her husband....controlling wife beaters come in all shapes and sizes.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:41 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

The law of the land certainly does overide Islamic law, but tell that to wahhabist believers.

You see what you fail to grasp Syl, is that those who believe they are commanded to wear the face veil, are the most literal Islamic beleivers. Who are the most homophobic, antisemitic and believe they are chattle to men. They are indoctrinated to believe this.

He can let her go out, as she believes he can beat her and that going out covered up, is never going to raise any questions, is it?

Well are you telling me, your friend was not in pain and was able to hide this pain in her stomach?

How did you know she was suffering domestic violence?

Again you use a strawman argument, neglecting that many women suffering domestic violence will often be hit in the face. You cannot make your argument based on one individual you know.

The point is two fold here. One these Wahhabist Muslim women will not come forward if beaten and wearing the burka and nobody will have any clue that they have been.

Women wear a face covering for different reasons.
The ones who do so out of fear need help....do you really think banning the burka will help them when they are so controlled?

I knew of the woman because I knew her sister....its a long time ago when police called cases like this 'domestics' and tended to keep out of the situation. Of course she was in pain, she had one miscarriage but was soon pregnant again....btw she was white as was her husband....controlling wife beaters come in all shapes and sizes.

All Muslims who wear the face veil do so out of fear.
A fear that if they do not, they will be sinning and would face eternal hell fire.
Now again a Muslim women who follows Wahhabism, believes also they their husbands can beat them.

So many of these women will actually think its okay they are beaten and the Burka, would enable Muslims who beat their wivies to then get around British laws on Domestic violence. As nobody is ever going to notice if they suffer.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:50 pm

The most appalling part is that some Muslims, like Wahhabist, will break law with marital rape and this will go unpunished by British law. Because as seen we have Muslims indoctrinated to believe they do not have a right to say no to their husbands. So how is anyone to know is she has bruises or cuts wearing the Burka?

by Original Quill Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:57 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

How interesting. Do you have any statistics to verify this? Or is this just speculation.

Would you recommend women go naked? Or would bikinis do?

How an absurd a question.

Wahhabist believe they can beat their wivies

Why then would there be statistics on this?

Take your time

Your declaration is a quantitative statement. I'm just asking for your link.

If you'd like, I'll explain statistics more fully for you: It's a binomial comparison of, in this case, women who have been beaten versus a general pool of women, expressed in a common denominator such as percentages or coefficients. That is how you prove a statistical statement.

Surely you wouldn't make a declaration without proof. Shocked

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:58 pm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-24/confronting-domestic-violence-in-islam/8458116

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

How an absurd a question.

Wahhabist believe they can beat their wivies

Why then would there be statistics on this?

Take your time

Your declaration is a quantitative statement. I'm just asking for your link.

If you'd like, I'll explain statistics more fully for you: It's a binomial comparison of, in this case, women who have been beaten versus a general pool of women, expressed in a common denominator such as percentages or coefficients. That is how you prove a statistical statement.

Surely you wouldn't make a declaration without proof.

I see the point has gone over your head.

As per usual and that you think this is funny says everything

Why again would there be many Salafist Muslims reporting marital rape and domestic violence, if they think its a blessing from Allah?

Watch the video

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:01 pm

Didge wrote:

The most appalling part is that some Muslims, like Wahhabist, will break law with marital rape and this will go unpunished by British law. Because as seen we have Muslims indoctrinated to believe they do not have a right to say no to their husbands. So how is anyone to know is she has bruises or cuts wearing the Burka?

Sickening though that video is, it contradicts what you and Smelly have said...the husband, is not allowed to leave any marks, bleeding or bruises on the wife. Rolling Eyes

by eddie Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:02 pm

Syl wrote:The law of the land over rides Islam law in this country....so in fact husbands are NOT allowed to beat their wives.

A controlling husband...one who thinks he has the right to beat his wife and insists she covers her face, would probably not even let her out with an uncovered face if the burka was banned.

But If he did, he would find plenty other places to hit her.

A pig I knew used to regularly kick his pregnant wife in the stomach and between her legs to 'discipline' her.
No bruises on show...job done.

Exactly. And let's also not forget that wife-beaters come in all colours and religions.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:03 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

How an absurd a question.

Wahhabist believe they can beat their wivies

Why then would there be statistics on this?

Take your time

Your declaration is a quantitative statement. I'm just asking for your link.

If you'd like, I'll explain statistics more fully for you: It's a binomial comparison of, in this case, women who have been beaten versus a general pool of women, expressed in a common denominator such as percentages or coefficients. That is how you prove a statistical statement.

it's the rules of islam (sharia)

that does not need statistics

they are set for all time

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:03 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

The most appalling part is that some Muslims, like Wahhabist, will break law with marital rape and this will go unpunished by British law. Because as seen we have Muslims indoctrinated to believe they do not have a right to say no to their husbands. So how is anyone to know is she has bruises or cuts wearing the Burka?

Sickening though that video is, it contradicts what you and Smelly have said...the husband, is not allowed to leave any marks, bleeding or bruises on the wife.

It actually proves our point.

How can then anyone tell if she has bruises or cuts, when she is covered head to toe in the Burka?

Has the point ffinally sunk in?

You see many Muslim women have to submit to sex and thinks its okay their husbands can force them to have sex, as they have to be obediant to them.

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:04 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:The law of the land over rides Islam law in this country....so in fact husbands are NOT allowed to beat their wives.

A controlling husband...one who thinks he has the right to beat his wife and insists she covers her face, would probably not even let her out with an uncovered face if the burka was banned.

But If he did, he would find plenty other places to hit her.

A pig I knew used to regularly kick his pregnant wife in the stomach and between her legs to 'discipline' her.
No bruises on show...job done.

Exactly. And let's also not forget that wife-beaters come in all colours and religions.

They were a white Christian couple Eddie.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:

Exactly. And let's also not forget that wife-beaters come in all colours and religions.

They were a white Christian couple Eddie.

Again not surprised.

There has been years off indoctrination of Pauline Christianity. Where the sexist teachings of Paul are what has formed Christianity today. He steered Christianity to be sexist, when Jesus never was.

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:08 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:

Exactly. And let's also not forget that wife-beaters come in all colours and religions.

They were a white Christian couple Eddie.

could he claim that Jesus himself said it was ok and acceptable?

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm

gelico wrote:
Syl wrote:

They were a white Christian couple Eddie.

could he claim that Jesus himself said it was ok and acceptable?

I suppose you could based on one passage from the Gosple of Matthew.

Which to me shows Matthew contradicts to the teachings of Jesus.

Can you think of the verse I am talking about Gelico, out of interest?

by Syl Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:12 pm

gelico wrote:
Syl wrote:

They were a white Christian couple Eddie.

could he claim that Jesus himself said it was ok and acceptable?

Who cares, he was a bullying arshole just as any man of any religion is who hits his wife..

by Original Quill Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:17 pm

gelico wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Your declaration is a quantitative statement. I'm just asking for your link.

If you'd like, I'll explain statistics more fully for you: It's a binomial comparison of, in this case, women who have been beaten versus a general pool of women, expressed in a common denominator such as percentages or coefficients. That is how you prove a statistical statement.

it's the rules of islam (sharia)

that does not need statistics

they are set for all time

You didn't say that. You said, in fact, that there were more "likely" wife-beatings in those kinds of families.

Didge wrote:Thus these Wahhabist Muslim women are that more likely to suffer domestic violence based on Wahhabist beliefs.

That is a simple quantitative statement.

Or, don't you wish to converse in English anymore? Perhaps some other language, not reliant upon logic?

by Guest Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:
gelico wrote:

it's the rules of islam (sharia)

that does not need statistics

they are set for all time

You didn't say that. You said, in fact, that there were more wife-beating in those kinds of families. That is a simple quantitative statement.

Or, don't you wish to converse in English anymore? Perhaps some other language, not reliant upon logic?

Ah the sign of a true racist. Now use whether someone can converse in English.

I posted a link the other day about the Muslim wivies of those who had husbands that were child groomers.

All had been forced in submission with sex

That is marital rape

Its on the Uk section.

The problem is within Islam, that it is taught in many cases that women are chattel and have to be obediant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence

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