In-your-face racism has returned and few are fighting against it

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

Last week on the No 9 bus, a middle-aged white woman shouted “bloody Paki” and spat at me. The sputum landed on the back of my seat, grey and revolting as she was.

No one said a thing, not even the black and Asian people around me. They all lowered or averted their eyes. I was spat at in 1972, too, after exiled Ugandan Asians with British passports arrived here. That time I was sitting quietly in a park in Oxford, reading Middlemarch. So you think it’s much better than the really bad old days? The truth is that, since 2001, in-your-face racism has returned. But those who suffer it just have to swallow the insults and degradation.

The difference is that, back then, we had politicians of all parties, including Tories, who felt keenly that racial prejudice and discrimination were unjust and reprehensible. They passed laws, used government purchasing power to get companies to operate fairly and, bit by bit, made racism unacceptable in the public space. Now those at the top – with the exception of Diane Abbott – say nothing and do even less about this stain on our society. Ethnic-minority politicians are the biggest cowards of the lot.

Even Margaret Thatcher, a little Englander, funded major projects to test the levels of race discrimination in Britain. I know because my husband, Colin Brown, was commissioned to carry out an expensive social survey paid for by her ministers. He devised empirical tests and proved that people were being denied jobs and housing because of their race or ethnicity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/inyourface-racism-has-returned-and-few-are-fighting-against-it-9850050.html

Excellent argument and so true.
All this balls about no debate on immigration, when all I Have heard about for the last few years is nothing but immigration.
This nation is sadly going backwards with some in this country and I for one will stand against such hate and bullshit.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:23 pm

what a load of waffle....not one point adressed....

the "left" dont merely want the "shareing"
they dont want merely thinking of others

it is quite clear that nothing short of abject subjugation to their idea of nirvana is good enough

how many time do I have to tell you.....I dont give a shit about who comes here or what they do....

except that that tolerance STOPS when what THEY (as incommers) want or do, interferes with or abrogates what I want to do or can have/expect

OR when what THEY (as incommers) want is going to cost ME money/time/effort

in other word (as one example) come here and use our NHS if you like...but YOU pay....dont expect me to consider having my pension pot raided to provide it for you as a good thing.

I CANT live on "feel good factor"

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:27 pm

Brasidas wrote:
sphinx wrote:

In what twisted logic can the person without the experience have a better understanding than the person with the experience?

How can I deflect points when you never hear what I say but simply insist that I am saying something completely different?

The thing you need to understand is that UKIP and Farage do not invent or create fear where none existed - they respond to fears people come to them with. UKIP were not against uncontrolled immigration until they saw the harm uncontrolled immigration was doing. UKIP are still not against immigration - they only oppose uncontrolled immigration.

Do you have any argument as to uncontrolled immigration being a good thing? (please dont quote the study released last week - the fact that the "expert author" was the man who assured us opening borders to ten new EU countries would only result in 13000 extra a year when the actual number was around 200,000 says a lot)

Absurd logic, I have experience of the people who are UKIP supporters, even more their policies and even more the rhetoric used by the, thus I have empirical evidence of UKIP, where your view is totally biased towards them, where I have the benefit of looking without bias. To put this in context, ask a religious person to look at their own faith, from the view point of an outsider, that they look as if they look at another faith or non faith as the case may be. It is a standard test, one of which I dare you to take. I do take on your points but as seen they are not logical as they are based on poor policies that UKIP holds, many of which are not based on any realities but even worse no idea what the consequences of leaving the EU will do, one that places the livelihoods of many people at risk.

There is not just one study but countless all pointing to irrefutable fact that immigration has benefited the country and no matter how you look at this the divide between those born and living here the divide is huge in money. Sorry did you just say Nigel does not invent fear, yet went onto say that nobody in their right mind would live next to a Romanian, thus making an absurd and racist fallacy view point as if there is something categorically wrong with all Romanians. That proves my point on the outsider test, you even fail to condemn something he said which many with an open mind would say is wrong. It shows you are thus not being open minded, but blinded by faith in this system and their policies. The fact is the fears people have themselves are nothing but unfounded are of their own making as there is no reason anyone cannot get along with others, To claim views of waiting and point the blame elsewhere is failing to see it is the system around why there is ques, which is what is wrong and that that needs correcting not wishing to deny others based upon an elitist system. UKIP views basically places the those at the top above all others, which you fail to see by the logic they apply. You again are blinded by what they offer, ignoring where the real problem is, within the system itself, not on people just wanting to come and work here.

So why is it you are still trying to use evidence that has proved immigration has benefited the country which UKIP does not deny, to argue that uncontrolled immigration has benefited the country?
UKIP can tell the difference - why cant you?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Hilarious, so lets start with the basics for Victor, did you teach your children to always get their way?

So your argument is based upon what some people do to then make the view anyone who comes here under the same hat, when the vast majority of people come here to make a new life and input into the system. We cannot predict just as we cannot predict of those born here who will commit crime. Your view is again based upon an unfounded fear, you are thinking again of yourself and not others, when the logical and most morally based view is to think of all others and not yourself. Your life is not in danger neither is it affected in such a way other than to maybe wait longer for something all of which is more down to the system not adapting, than any immigration.

Again the problem stems with yourself, and you thus then need to look at yourself why you feel the wrong way and negatively. Thus if you hold negative views, then clearly the problem of your own making.

So should we just allow people to get their way?
Of course not, then you would have anarchy.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:32 pm

The difference on immigration, when it is the mass uncontrolled immigration from the free movement within the EU that has most benefited this country Sphinx on every level, that which has come from the EU and all the evidence points to that, plus also my own findings through again empirical evidence.

Why do you not take me up on my test?
Most people always shy away from this, as they cannot think unbiased, where I think logically.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:47 pm

Brasidas wrote:Hilarious, so lets start with the basics for Victor, did you teach your children to always get their way?

So your argument is based upon what some people do to then make the view anyone who comes here under the same hat, when the vast majority of people come here to make a new life and input into the system. We cannot predict just as we cannot predict of those born here who will commit crime. Your view is again based upon an unfounded fear, you are thinking again of yourself and not others, when the logical and most morally based view is to think of all others and not yourself. (WHY is it more logical to "think of others"?...what does THAT do for me?) Your life is not in danger neither is it affected in such a way other than to maybe wait longer for something all of which is more down to the system not adapting, than any immigration.

erm no.....my pension pot was raided by the good ship BROWN to give labour more money to spend on their immigration splurge..how doest THAT benefit me....like I said...i cant eat "feelgood"

Again the problem stems with yourself, and you thus then need to look at yourself why you feel the wrong way and negatively. Thus if you hold negative views, then clearly the problem of your own making.

So should we just allow people to get their way?
Of course not, then you would have anarchy.

cant fathom your thinking Didge....

why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

I am NOT a walking charity ....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:49 pm

Again all negative responses that only think of yourself.
Your response, was this.
"Me, me me"
They are thus born from a selfish need to look out for yourself and not others, where if we took that logical view you would have never received the benefits you have had throughout your life from just being born in this country, if everyone else took your stance.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:54 pm

Sweetie I cannot take you up on your test because when I look logically and analytically at UKIP policies you insist the answer is wrong because I am looking at the wrong question.

As for you thinking logically that inspires 2 thoughts - the first one being the idea that if you think you are last sane person left you are the one who is insane, the second being that in some arenas logical thought is the most dangerous type. Take logic to its natural inclusion and you find yourself supporting eugenics.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:59 pm

sphinx wrote:Sweetie I cannot take you up on your test because when I look logically and analytically at UKIP policies you insist the answer is wrong because I am looking at the wrong question.

As for you thinking logically that inspires 2 thoughts - the first one being the idea that if you think you are last sane person left you are the one who is insane, the second being that in some arenas logical thought is the most dangerous type. Take logic to its natural inclusion and you find yourself supporting eugenics.

Debate downgraded to immature names now, thus showing you are losing credibility Sphinx and have little faith in your own views.
Again an absurd analogy, my view is taking the logical view point that if you apply your logic at every turn it discriminates, because it is based off elitism, hence why my logical stance is right and where you failed to understand there is no equality in your views, as your policies only seek to benefit some and not all.
You are failing at every turn to see the bigger picture and again only ones that benefits yourself and some others, not everyone, why they are again illogical. Your view thus allows for discrimination which if applied on all apsetcs would place the elite at the top because they can use and apply the same illogical stance.
Again your life like everyone else has depended on others thinking about you and others, logically then the view to look out for everyone is the right and moral thing to do, being selective is thinking more to your own needs than to everyone.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:08 pm

Hon I have called you sweetie for months whenever you start to bore me.

Try this test - is allowing someone into the country based purely on their country of origin discriminating?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:12 pm

sphinx wrote:Hon I have called you sweetie for months whenever you start to bore me.

Try this test - is allowing someone into the country based purely on their country of origin discriminating?

Actually Sphinx you were debating with me calling me Didge, it descended when you could not counter my points with a change as seen to now sweetie and hun, I know psychology and read it very well Sphinx, to now poor excuses of boredom, which as seen is a complete contradiction.
So you do not want to do my test, sham really you may open your eyes.
In answer to your question, as seen I believe in free movement for those wishing to come here to work, abide by the laws. Where they come from is irrelevant.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:20 pm

why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:21 pm

erm no.....my pension pot was raided by the good ship BROWN to give labour more money to spend on their immigration splurge..how doest THAT benefit me....like I said...i cant eat "feelgood"

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:24 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:erm no.....my pension pot was raided by the good ship BROWN to give labour more money to spend on their immigration splurge..how doest THAT benefit me....like I said...i cant eat "feelgood"

So the system again, which you now make absurd claims to immigration, blame the system, or those in charge, the immigrants did nothing when many came here just to look for a new life just like many Brits do, all of which you think gives you some right to stamp your feet and throw your dummy out over Victor.
Sorry to burst your bubble, this again is you pointing the finger of blame in the wrong place, immigrants, and not the people who cause your pension to to be raided, when in facts it is more the banks that screwed that up.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:26 pm

Oh by the way you can live off the land and feel most free doing so, where this country is only 7% urbanized, you more than anyone should not feel in the least bit bothered. You feel most free out of many in your daily life, so am sorry but am not going to buy the not feel good factor when you live it most days. The only thing wrong is you wish to stop others feeling the same.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:31 pm

Brasidas wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:erm no.....my pension pot was raided by the good ship BROWN to give labour more money to spend on their immigration splurge..how doest THAT benefit me....like I said...i cant eat "feelgood"

So the system again, which you now make absurd claims to immigration, blame the system, or those in charge, the immigrants did nothing when many came here just to look for a new life just like many Brits do, all of which you think gives you some right to stamp your feet and throw your dummy out over Victor.
Sorry to burst your bubble, this again is you pointing the finger of blame in the wrong place, immigrants, and not the people who cause your pension to to be raided, when in facts it is more the banks that screwed that up.

bull shit didge......the pension pot was raided by brown well before the banks screwed up......

blame in wrong place...I think not.....too many too soon.....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:32 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:34 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

So the system again, which you now make absurd claims to immigration, blame the system, or those in charge, the immigrants did nothing when many came here just to look for a new life just like many Brits do, all of which you think gives you some right to stamp your feet and throw your dummy out over Victor.
Sorry to burst your bubble, this again is you pointing the finger of blame in the wrong place, immigrants, and not the people who cause your pension to to be raided, when in facts it is more the banks that screwed that up.

bull shit didge......the pension pot was raided by brown well before the banks screwed up......

blame in wrong place...I think not.....too many too soon.....

They are both to blame showing how little you know Victor, again it has nothing to do with immigrants though when again they have far more than benefited this country where Brits have cost a bill of 600 billion, that speaks for itself

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:34 pm

Brasidas wrote:Oh by the way you can live off the land and feel most free doing so, where this country is only 7% urbanized, you more than anyone should not feel in the least bit bothered. You feel most free out of many in your daily life, so am sorry but am not going to buy the not feel good factor when you live it most days. The only thing wrong is you wish to stop others feeling the same.

nope...I just dont want to be the one paying to let them "feel good"
I pay MY way and for enough of our own less fortunate (which I dont mind) ...let them pay theirs...and if they cant....out........

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:35 pm

[quote="victorisnotamused"]

victorisnotamused wrote:why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

Again all negative responses that only think of yourself.
Your response, was this.
"Me, me me"
They are thus born from a selfish need to look out for yourself and not others, where if we took that logical view you would have never received the benefits you have had throughout your life from just being born in this country, if everyone else took your stance.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:36 pm

Brasidas wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

bull shit didge......the pension pot was raided by brown well before the banks screwed up......

blame in wrong place...I think not.....too many too soon.....

They are both to blame showing how little you know Victor, again it has nothing to do with immigrants though when again they have far more than benefited this country where Brits have cost a bill of 600 billion, that speaks for itself

yep, nice set of twisted figures for you lefties there...I gotta hand it to the lefty statisticians they are masters at the damned lies and statistics game....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:37 pm

Brasidas wrote:
sphinx wrote:Hon I have called you sweetie for months whenever you start to bore me.

Try this test - is allowing someone into the country based purely on their country of origin discriminating?

Actually Sphinx you were debating with me calling me Didge, it descended when you could not counter my points with a change as seen to now sweetie and hun, I know psychology and read it very well Sphinx, to now poor excuses of boredom, which as seen is a complete contradiction.
So you do not want to do my test, sham really you may open your eyes.
In answer to your question, as seen I believe in free movement for those wishing to come here to work, abide by the laws. Where they come from is irrelevant.

You have consistently refused to even acknowledge any of the responses to your points - over months if not years. Your response to UKIP is distinctly similar to JDs response towards Tories. UKIP do not come close to getting everything right - and there are issues which most members are well aware of (not least the fact that the party is deliberately attractive to individualists and when 2 clash properly the results are not pretty)

Taking every thing into consideration I still think they get more right than the other parties and do at least offer a genuine choice. An awful lot of their polices are what I came up with myself before ever thinking of joining any party - and before UKIP had anything like policies. I mean I was preaching flat taxation and a massive simplification of the countries tax system before UKIP had it (and I am not brilliantly impressed that they have pulled away from flat taxation) I considered grammar education a great idea from the time I was at school - before UKIP were even invented. I dont think they will get everything right - but I think they will get important stuff right at least for while - namely the important stuff of listening to and being driven by the electorate. If the electorate has a problem with something the correct response is not to dismiss them as ignorant uneducated bigots and ignore their wishes. Their wishes may be wrong but in a democracy the government follows those wishes.

Now your response - I have to assume from your answer that you believe any penniless unskilled worker from Nigeria, India, Brazil, where ever should be allowed to move here to search for work with no obstacles?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:37 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Brasidas wrote:Oh by the way you can live off the land and feel most free doing so, where this country is only 7% urbanized, you more than anyone should not feel in the least bit bothered. You feel most free out of many in your daily life, so am sorry but am not going to buy the not feel good factor when you live it most days. The only thing wrong is you wish to stop others feeling the same.

nope...I just dont want to be the one paying to let them "feel good"
I pay MY way and for enough of our own less fortunate (which I dont mind) ...let them pay theirs...and if they cant....out........

Me, me me counter again, thus you are the issue here, not anyone else.
You do not even see that, where your own selfish needs that are holding you back which again you would never have taught your own children.
Seriously you never would have given into everything your child wanted, why do you think everyone should just bow down to your needs, when the needs of the many, everyone will always outweigh the needs of the few.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:41 pm

in fact those figures are fucking lies full stop

they factor in all those "working benefits" which are in fact pure and simple govt subsidies to exploitative employers...

before "maggie" the govt directly subsidised many industries, and tghus there was no-one to "blame " for the costs
after maggie, the subsidy was transferred in stages to the "workers" via various benefits

so now you can left and right alike use those figures to eithe berate the poor or beat the immigrant protester with....

a few years ago that 600 billion (or its equivalent )would not show as it went to industry direct...

so bollcks to it I say.......

now...refute that.....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:42 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

sigh.......

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:44 pm

Brasidas wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

nope...I just dont want to be the one paying to let them "feel good"
I pay MY way and for enough of our own less fortunate (which I dont mind) ...let them pay theirs...and if they cant....out........

Me, me me counter again, thus you are the issue here, not anyone else.
You do not even see that, where your own selfish needs that are holding you back which again you would never have taught your own children.
Seriously you never would have given into everything your child wanted, why do you think everyone should just bow down to your needs, when the needs of the many, everyone will always outweigh the needs of the few.

thats the point you miss...I dont....but neither do I think that I should be the provider of anyone elses "selfish needs" either

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:46 pm

sphinx wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Actually Sphinx you were debating with me calling me Didge, it descended when you could not counter my points with a change as seen to now sweetie and hun, I know psychology and read it very well Sphinx, to now poor excuses of boredom, which as seen is a complete contradiction.
So you do not want to do my test, sham really you may open your eyes.
In answer to your question, as seen I believe in free movement for those wishing to come here to work, abide by the laws. Where they come from is irrelevant.

You have consistently refused to even acknowledge any of the responses to your points - over months if not years. Your response to UKIP is distinctly similar to JDs response towards Tories. UKIP do not come close to getting everything right - and there are issues which most members are well aware of (not least the fact that the party is deliberately attractive to individualists and when 2 clash properly the results are not pretty)

Taking every thing into consideration I still think they get more right than the other parties and do at least offer a genuine choice. An awful lot of their polices are what I came up with myself before ever thinking of joining any party - and before UKIP had anything like policies. I mean I was preaching flat taxation and a massive simplification of the countries tax system before UKIP had it (and I am not brilliantly impressed that they have pulled away from flat taxation) I considered grammar education a great idea from the time I was at school - before UKIP were even invented. I dont think they will get everything right - but I think they will get important stuff right at least for while - namely the important stuff of listening to and being driven by the electorate. If the electorate has a problem with something the correct response is not to dismiss them as ignorant uneducated bigots and ignore their wishes. Their wishes may be wrong but in a democracy the government follows those wishes.

Now your response - I have to assume from your answer that you believe any penniless unskilled worker from Nigeria, India, Brazil, where ever should be allowed to move here to search for work with no obstacles?

You can think all you like, all your response was is just an opinion, not based on any facts, logical or rational thinking, if it was you would then see how discriminating the UKIP party really this, which goes down to my test for you, which if you seriously took looking from an outside view you would see also.
I did this with the Tory part and have seen that they have more views at odds with any rational view and thus no party I see holds the correct rational logical views.

At every level I have countered your views, you though have not even attempted to challenge them except with claims of me not knowing UKIP, which is a deflection, nothing more. Your view is that unless I go down to the UKIP daily tea and biscuit meetings that I am unable to form views about their policies. What you are saying is that I should come down and be indoctrinated, when I would no doubt be kicked out for easily arguing against their views as I do with yourself on here. That may seem arrogant, but as seen you have not even addressed my views.
They may even have some good ideas, but most of thier views are based on immigration, the EU and nationalism, all of which is connected to their other views, they are reliant on policies of denying free movement and of leaving the EU, all at great risk to the nation., of which they have no contingency plans, just some guesses as to what might happen. They think they have the finances all figured out, when it is a complete lottery to what effect it would have if we left, as nobody can predict what will happen. Even worse they have failed to factor in the worst case scenario and this all down to a selfish concept they have for this country based around an illusion, sovereignty.

Sometimes even the majority in a country gets it wrong, 43% once voted in Hitler,where all his views were based off fear, nationalism, prejudice, discrimination, all of which I see in UKIP

Yes any unskilled worker should have the right to aplly for a job here, need I tell you about this person.?

Srinivasa Ramanujan

Not everyone has the advantages you have sphinx, it does not mean they are not capable if not better than doing the job than you and everyone deserves a chance to apply for that job, birth right is an illusion to deny people. Skilled is nothing ore than being at an advantage, which you only gained from being born here or through wealth

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:50 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:why should I do anything that DIS-benefits me for any reason
why should I do anything that is benefit neutral to me (except that if it dont affect me or mine i cant be arsed to be an arse and deny someone their whatever )

logically I am only going to do things that are of benefit to me.....even if sometimes the "benefit" may be tenuous or subjective in nature.....

sigh.......

Me, me me counter again, thus you are the issue here, not anyone else.
You do not even see that, where your own selfish needs that are holding you back which again you would never have taught your own children.
Seriously you never would have given into everything your child wanted, why do you think everyone should just bow down to your needs, when the needs of the many, everyone will always outweigh the needs of the few.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:52 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Me, me me counter again, thus you are the issue here, not anyone else.
You do not even see that, where your own selfish needs that are holding you back which again you would never have taught your own children.
Seriously you never would have given into everything your child wanted, why do you think everyone should just bow down to your needs, when the needs of the many, everyone will always outweigh the needs of the few.

thats the point you miss...I dont....but neither do I think that I should be the provider of anyone elses "selfish needs" either

Why not, your whole chance to advance in life came off countless others, not it seems that you can even see that. You never made this happen, a system did, which you only benefited off by being born here.
Thus your logic would have mean using your view that you would and should have been left with out anything to help you.
Which is what you fail to see.
Your view is like Victorian England

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:53 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:in fact those figures are fucking lies full stop

they factor in all those "working benefits" which are in fact pure and simple govt subsidies to exploitative employers...

before "maggie" the govt directly subsidised many industries, and tghus there was no-one to "blame " for the costs
after maggie, the subsidy was transferred in stages to the "workers" via various benefits

so now you can left and right alike use those figures to eithe berate the poor or beat the immigrant protester with....

a few years ago that 600 billion (or its equivalent )would not show as it went to industry direct...

so bollcks to it I say.......

now...refute that.....

Ha ha, lies based on what?
Your view

Grow up

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:59 pm

so you cant give any logical reasoning

just you usual waffle when cornered.....

christ on a bike...answer the question

Logically....why SHOULD i do ANYTHING that disbenefits me?

logically .....why SHOULD I do anything that is benefit neutral to me

logically I am ONLY going to do things that are of benefit to me (not withstanding the fact that, were I to want to do something which it could reasonably be shown to be a significant disbenefit to another,that fact would make me seriously consider the NEED to do such an act)

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:02 pm

Brasidas wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:in fact those figures are fucking lies full stop

they factor in all those "working benefits" which are in fact pure and simple govt subsidies to exploitative employers...

before "maggie" the govt directly subsidised many industries, and tghus there was no-one to "blame " for the costs
after maggie, the subsidy was transferred in stages to the "workers" via various benefits

so now you can left and right alike use those figures to eithe berate the poor or beat the immigrant protester with....

a few years ago that 600 billion (or its equivalent )would not show as it went to industry direct...

so bollcks to it I say.......

now...refute that.....

Ha ha, lies based on what?
Your view

Grow up

getting rattled Didge???

Lies based on the fact that that 600 billion includes WORKING benefits...which as i said are effectively a subsidy to industry..whether YOU like it or not...
lies based on the fact that not very long ago that subsidy would have gone DIRECTLY to industry
and thus not be counted....

about time YOU grew up and opened your eyes little kitten.....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:04 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:so you cant give any logical reasoning

just you usual waffle when cornered.....

christ on a bike...answer the question

Logically....why SHOULD i do ANYTHING that disbenefits me?

logically .....why SHOULD I do anything that is benefit neutral to me

logically I am ONLY going to do things that are of benefit to me (not withstanding the fact that, were I to want to do something which it could reasonably be shown to be a significant disbenefit to another,that fact would make me seriously consider the NEED to do such an act)

I told you, thae fact is your status was born from other people benefiting you.
You thus started without any benefits, which it was others benefiting you.
Not sure how many times to explain this, because your stance is you started out being benefited now wish to deny others based on your own selfish view
Illogical, thus if we took your view you would still be uneducated, poor not even able to use a gun and hunt because the majority of society would not be bothered as you are not bothered about them.

has this sunk in yet?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:06 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Ha ha, lies based on what?
Your view

Grow up

getting rattled Didge???

Lies based on the fact that that 600 billion includes WORKING benefits...which as i said are effectively a subsidy to industry..whether YOU like it or not...
lies based on the fact that not very long ago that subsidy would have gone DIRECTLY to industry
and thus not be counted....

about time YOU grew up and opened your eyes little kitten.....

No just found your answer so silly to claim aspects that have no bearing on the study being as it was off a time period, to then go off a period before this to then blame this for people costing the country when as seen many immigrants benefited shows you clearly not only did not read the report but failed to even understand it.
Hence your answer was in anger your self, hence you need to grow up mate, as that was embarressing

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:07 pm

Sorry if slow to reply, I am replying to Cipher with his comical replies elsewhere

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:11 pm

Brasidas wrote:Sorry if slow to reply, I am replying to Cipher with his comical replies elsewhere

PM inbound

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:12 pm

Brasidas wrote:
sphinx wrote:

You have consistently refused to even acknowledge any of the responses to your points - over months if not years. Your response to UKIP is distinctly similar to JDs response towards Tories. UKIP do not come close to getting everything right - and there are issues which most members are well aware of (not least the fact that the party is deliberately attractive to individualists and when 2 clash properly the results are not pretty)

Taking every thing into consideration I still think they get more right than the other parties and do at least offer a genuine choice. An awful lot of their polices are what I came up with myself before ever thinking of joining any party - and before UKIP had anything like policies. I mean I was preaching flat taxation and a massive simplification of the countries tax system before UKIP had it (and I am not brilliantly impressed that they have pulled away from flat taxation) I considered grammar education a great idea from the time I was at school - before UKIP were even invented. I dont think they will get everything right - but I think they will get important stuff right at least for while - namely the important stuff of listening to and being driven by the electorate. If the electorate has a problem with something the correct response is not to dismiss them as ignorant uneducated bigots and ignore their wishes. Their wishes may be wrong but in a democracy the government follows those wishes.

Now your response - I have to assume from your answer that you believe any penniless unskilled worker from Nigeria, India, Brazil, where ever should be allowed to move here to search for work with no obstacles?

You can think all you like, all your response was is just an opinion, not based on any facts, logical or rational thinking, if it was you would then see how discriminating the UKIP party really this, which goes down to my test for you, which if you seriously took looking from an outside view you would see also.
I did this with the Tory part and have seen that they have more views at odds with any rational view and thus no party I see holds the correct rational logical views.

At every level I have countered your views, you though have not even attempted to challenge them except with claims of me not knowing UKIP, which is a deflection, nothing more. Your view is that unless I go down to the UKIP daily tea and biscuit meetings that I am unable to form views about their policies. What you are saying is that I should come down and be indoctrinated, when I would no doubt be kicked out for easily arguing against their views as I do with yourself on here. That may seem arrogant, but as seen you have not even addressed my views.
They may even have some good ideas, but most of thier views are based on immigration, the EU and nationalism, all of which is connected to their other views, they are reliant on policies of denying free movement and of leaving the EU, all at great risk to the nation., of which they have no contingency plans, just some guesses as to what might happen. They think they have the finances all figured out, when it is a complete lottery to what effect it would have if we left, as nobody can predict what will happen. Even worse they have failed to factor in the worst case scenario and this all down to a selfish concept they have for this country based around an illusion, sovereignty.

Sometimes even the majority in a country gets it wrong, 43% once voted in Hitler,where all his views were based off fear, nationalism, prejudice, discrimination, all of which I see in UKIP

Yes any unskilled worker should have the right to aplly for a job here, need I tell you about this person.?

Srinivasa Ramanujan

Not everyone has the advantages you have sphinx, it does not mean they are not capable if not better than doing the job than you and everyone deserves a chance to apply for that job, birth right is an illusion to deny people. Skilled is nothing ore than being at an advantage, which you only gained from being born here or through wealth

If I call you didge instead of sweetie will you try listening and not go off on another waffle attack.

You are trying to evade answering my question directly because you think you know where I am coming from - you dont so try answering truthfully and see where it leads.

I did not ask you if you thought all should have the right to apply for a job here (and I am not after individual examples to prove a point because I am not coming from where you think I am and the point you are trying to prove is irrelevant) I asked whether all should have the right to move here to look for a job to apply for.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:13 pm

Brasidas wrote:Sorry if slow to reply, I am replying to Cipher with his comical replies elsewhere

Has it reared its ugly head again?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:16 pm

Brasidas wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

getting rattled Didge???

Lies based on the fact that that 600 billion includes WORKING benefits...which as i said are effectively a subsidy to industry..whether YOU like it or not...
lies based on the fact that not very long ago that subsidy would have gone DIRECTLY to industry
and thus not be counted....

about time YOU grew up and opened your eyes little kitten.....

No just found your answer so silly to claim aspects that have no bearing on the study being as it was off a time period, to then go off a period before this to then blame this for people costing the country when as seen many immigrants benefited shows you clearly not only did not read the report but failed to even understand it.

oh I understand it all right didge...its just you dont like the idea .....
Hence your answer was in anger your self, hence you need to grow up mate, as that was embarressing

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:22 pm

sphinx wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

You can think all you like, all your response was is just an opinion, not based on any facts, logical or rational thinking, if it was you would then see how discriminating the UKIP party really this, which goes down to my test for you, which if you seriously took looking from an outside view you would see also.
I did this with the Tory part and have seen that they have more views at odds with any rational view and thus no party I see holds the correct rational logical views.

At every level I have countered your views, you though have not even attempted to challenge them except with claims of me not knowing UKIP, which is a deflection, nothing more. Your view is that unless I go down to the UKIP daily tea and biscuit meetings that I am unable to form views about their policies. What you are saying is that I should come down and be indoctrinated, when I would no doubt be kicked out for easily arguing against their views as I do with yourself on here. That may seem arrogant, but as seen you have not even addressed my views.
They may even have some good ideas, but most of thier views are based on immigration, the EU and nationalism, all of which is connected to their other views, they are reliant on policies of denying free movement and of leaving the EU, all at great risk to the nation., of which they have no contingency plans, just some guesses as to what might happen. They think they have the finances all figured out, when it is a complete lottery to what effect it would have if we left, as nobody can predict what will happen. Even worse they have failed to factor in the worst case scenario and this all down to a selfish concept they have for this country based around an illusion, sovereignty.

Sometimes even the majority in a country gets it wrong, 43% once voted in Hitler,where all his views were based off fear, nationalism, prejudice, discrimination, all of which I see in UKIP

Yes any unskilled worker should have the right to aplly for a job here, need I tell you about this person.?

Srinivasa Ramanujan

Not everyone has the advantages you have sphinx, it does not mean they are not capable if not better than doing the job than you and everyone deserves a chance to apply for that job, birth right is an illusion to deny people. Skilled is nothing ore than being at an advantage, which you only gained from being born here or through wealth

If I call you didge instead of sweetie will you try listening and not go off on another waffle attack.

You are trying to evade answering my question directly because you think you know where I am coming from - you dont so try answering truthfully and see where it leads.

I did not ask you if you thought all should have the right to apply for a job here (and I am not after individual examples to prove a point because I am not coming from where you think I am and the point you are trying to prove is irrelevant) I asked whether all should have the right to move here to look for a job to apply for.

You see you call my views waffle sphinx and thus have no respect for my views claiming I am not listening then expecting me to listen to you, when you are not doing the same.
Contradiction
I do listen to your views, think you are very intelligent, but on this I have read up on UKIP and to me I see much wrong in their views as I have debate.
Again I believe in free movement, if you understand what that is, you have the answer to your question, as already stated, that again if people come here they do so to work and abide by the laws. So of course they can come here to look for work.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:22 pm

sphinx wrote:
Brasidas wrote:Sorry if slow to reply, I am replying to Cipher with his comical replies elsewhere

Has it reared its ugly head again?

Yep just replied to it.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:28 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Brasidas wrote:Sorry if slow to reply, I am replying to Cipher with his comical replies elsewhere

PM inbound

Thanks Victor, very interesting and replied.

Cheers

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Brasidas wrote:
sphinx wrote:

If I call you didge instead of sweetie will you try listening and not go off on another waffle attack.

You are trying to evade answering my question directly because you think you know where I am coming from - you dont so try answering truthfully and see where it leads.

I did not ask you if you thought all should have the right to apply for a job here (and I am not after individual examples to prove a point because I am not coming from where you think I am and the point you are trying to prove is irrelevant) I asked whether all should have the right to move here to look for a job to apply for.

You see you call my views waffle sphinx and thus have no respect for my views claiming I am not listening then expecting me to listen to you, when you are not doing the same.
Contradiction
I do listen to your views, think you are very intelligent, but on this I have read up on UKIP and to me I see much wrong in their views as I have debate.
Again I believe in free movement, if you understand what that is, you have the answer to your question, as already stated, that again if people come here they do so to work and abide by the laws. So of course they can come here to look for work.

I did not call your views waffle I said you were having a waffle attack to try and avoid answering my question ( I did in an earlier post liken the to JDs views of the Tory party but you did not seem to mind that)

Right to to pin you down you believe any person from anywhere in the world should have free access to come here and look for work. Good. I was hoping you would say that.

The reason I was hoping you would say that is because it is totally at odds with what the EU wants for this country and allows for this country.

I would rather have you show integrity and be totally unbiased that resort to the backwards alternative racism the EU promotes and upholds while claiming the opposite.

You would rather treat every man the same and let them in regardless. UKIP would rather treat every man the same in and award points for deciding entry regardless. The organization at odds with this belief is the EU that wants everything decided on the grounds of is EU/is not EU.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:36 pm

That is still showing disrespect, by claiming my stance of attack is waffle.

Who says I even back the EU as a body, I am going on about free movement. I want to see a world that has no boundaries, that will take time, my view on the EU is a stepping stone to this but has many faults to start with, where more democratic process to vote in an elected European government would be better in my books. As what difference does it make again if the laws made are right?
It does not make any difference.

I want to allow anyone a chance, by placing a points system is thus discriminating, where someone who could be of value, is thus denied based on where they may have been born which denied them the benefits you had. That is not equal but elitist again.

So my views are even different to the EU, so taking that approach is not going to work based off their policies.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:41 pm

Brasidas wrote:That is still showing disrespect, by claiming my stance of attack is waffle.

Who says I even back the EU as a body, I am going on about free movement. I want to see a world that has no boundaries, that will take time, my view on the EU is a stepping stone to this but has many faults to start with, where more democratic process to vote in an elected European government would be better in my books. As what difference does it make again if the laws made are right?
It does not make any difference.

I want to allow anyone a chance, by placing a points system is thus discriminating, where someone who could be of value, is thus denied based on where they may have been born which denied them the benefits you had. That is not equal but elitist again.

So my views are even different to the EU, so taking that approach is not going to work based off their policies.

The EU is not a stepping stone to free movement it is redrawing of boundaries to make free movement less possible. Sure those inside the boundaries can move freely with it - but it wants those outside to face barriers to getting inside.

How is a points system discriminating? The EU denies on where someone was born. A points system looking at skills criminality etc has got nothing to do with where someone was born.

I take it you are saying that the systems used by the US, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand are all elitist and should be removed?

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:43 pm

Anyway I am shattered - cant be bothered to play with the hag tonight might come up with something tomorrow. Will continue this tomorrow as well.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:47 pm

sphinx wrote:
Brasidas wrote:That is still showing disrespect, by claiming my stance of attack is waffle.

Who says I even back the EU as a body, I am going on about free movement. I want to see a world that has no boundaries, that will take time, my view on the EU is a stepping stone to this but has many faults to start with, where more democratic process to vote in an elected European government would be better in my books. As what difference does it make again if the laws made are right?
It does not make any difference.

I want to allow anyone a chance, by placing a points system is thus discriminating, where someone who could be of value, is thus denied based on where they may have been born which denied them the benefits you had. That is not equal but elitist again.

So my views are even different to the EU, so taking that approach is not going to work based off their policies.

The EU is not a stepping stone to free movement it is redrawing of boundaries to make free movement less possible. Sure those inside the boundaries can move freely with it - but it wants those outside to face barriers to getting inside.

How is a points system discriminating? The EU denies on where someone was born. A points system looking at skills criminality etc has got nothing to do with where someone was born.

I take it you are saying that the systems used by the US, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand are all elitist and should be removed?

You misread, it is a stepping stone to world governed under one system, where again my view is on free movement for all, where at present the EU does not represent many of my views, so again you are going down the wrong path and argument, to now which is the best of two bad polices, which again UKIP will always come off worst, as it is based on an antiquated ideal called nationalism.
The EU is wrong to deny people based off where they were born and so is UKIP to base a view which is based off where someone is born, because some places people are born will not see them have the benefits of a good education or of learning skills.
Yes the systems in all those countries are elitist, because they have a system that is not equality.
Again anyone should have a right to come here, where nobody should be denied a chance of a new life if they want to come and work and abide by laws

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:48 pm

sphinx wrote:Anyway I am shattered - cant be bothered to play with the hag tonight might come up with something tomorrow. Will continue this tomorrow as well.

Night Sphinx

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:54 pm

Brasidas wrote:
sphinx wrote:

The EU is not a stepping stone to free movement it is redrawing of boundaries to make free movement less possible. Sure those inside the boundaries can move freely with it - but it wants those outside to face barriers to getting inside.

How is a points system discriminating? The EU denies on where someone was born. A points system looking at skills criminality etc has got nothing to do with where someone was born.

I take it you are saying that the systems used by the US, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand are all elitist and should be removed?

You misread, it is a stepping stone to world governed under one system, where again my view is on free movement for all, where at present the EU does not represent many of my views, so again you are going down the wrong path and argument, to now which is the best of two bad polices, which again UKIP will always come off worst, as it is based on an antiquated ideal called nationalism.
The EU is wrong to deny people based off where they were born and so is UKIP to base a view which is based off where someone is born, because some places people are born will not see them have the benefits of a good education or of learning skills.
Yes the systems in all those countries are elitist, because they have a system that is not equality.
Again anyone should have a right to come here, where nobody should be denied a chance of a new life if they want to come and work and abide by laws

Yes didge, thats all very nice and all that, and to be fair i wouldnt have a problem with that, since it of course would work both ways and I could maove where I wanted to ..and still get all I am entitled to the same.....great.....

BUT it WONT WORK...for the same reason that even the best and purest form of communism wont work......PEOPLE....

there will always be some greedy bastard who wants it all...not just his bit he's entitled to but mine yours and everyone elses too.....
as I have said to you before..the startrekkian dream (which is what i think you allude to) is unworkable......because you would have to get EVERYONE one board...ALL however may billion of us stupid stubborn humans there are....one...just one, clever unscruoulous individual could turn your dream upside down in no time

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:57 pm

Never say never Victor, many have before when they though something was not possible.
The more people are educated and throw off doctrines that seek to hold them back through nothing more than faith, the better the chance is humanity progressing. Some beliefs are okay, take yours based around the earth itself, it is not based around imposing your views onto others or the need that people even have to believe. That is how many concepts should be.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:04 pm

Have to go, night Victor.

This was very interesting tonight, so cheers for that.

Laughing

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