In-your-face racism has returned and few are fighting against it

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:19 pm

Last week on the No 9 bus, a middle-aged white woman shouted “bloody Paki” and spat at me. The sputum landed on the back of my seat, grey and revolting as she was.

No one said a thing, not even the black and Asian people around me. They all lowered or averted their eyes. I was spat at in 1972, too, after exiled Ugandan Asians with British passports arrived here. That time I was sitting quietly in a park in Oxford, reading Middlemarch. So you think it’s much better than the really bad old days? The truth is that, since 2001, in-your-face racism has returned. But those who suffer it just have to swallow the insults and degradation.

The difference is that, back then, we had politicians of all parties, including Tories, who felt keenly that racial prejudice and discrimination were unjust and reprehensible. They passed laws, used government purchasing power to get companies to operate fairly and, bit by bit, made racism unacceptable in the public space. Now those at the top – with the exception of Diane Abbott – say nothing and do even less about this stain on our society. Ethnic-minority politicians are the biggest cowards of the lot.

Even Margaret Thatcher, a little Englander, funded major projects to test the levels of race discrimination in Britain. I know because my husband, Colin Brown, was commissioned to carry out an expensive social survey paid for by her ministers. He devised empirical tests and proved that people were being denied jobs and housing because of their race or ethnicity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/inyourface-racism-has-returned-and-few-are-fighting-against-it-9850050.html

Excellent argument and so true.
All this balls about no debate on immigration, when all I Have heard about for the last few years is nothing but immigration.
This nation is sadly going backwards with some in this country and I for one will stand against such hate and bullshit.

by Ben Reilly Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:11 pm

This is why I laugh so hard when Vic talks about "civilising" me. Yes, maybe some day I too will spit and curse at someone simply for having a skin color I don't like Smile

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:10 pm

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Less does not equate to wanting none.

by Cass Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

immigration has been going on in the UK for centuries. If people want less immigration pay more taxes to secure your borders and have more people looking at applications. Change your poiliticians or make your current ones follow through on promises and policies.

BUT DON'T SPUT ON AND HUMILIATE OTHERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT TO YOU.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:33 pm

Cass wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

immigration has been going on in the UK for centuries. If people want less immigration pay more taxes to secure your borders and have more people looking at applications. Change your poiliticians or make your current ones follow through on promises and policies.

BUT DON'T SPUT ON AND HUMILIATE OTHERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT TO YOU.

+1

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:33 pm

Tell that to all the Pakistani Muslim rapists of white children over here.....

You've been warned about this, Tommy -- stop using racial slurs unless you're quoting.

Love,
Ben

by Fuzzy Zack Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:40 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

After the death of so many in WW2, Britain had a labour shortage. The UK government tried to attract as many black and Asians as possible. Immigrants rebuilt this country.

You've had a chance to register your protest at every general election since. Don't be a sore loser.

by Cass Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:40 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Tell that to all the Paki Muslim rapists of white children over here.....

you really are obsessed with the two topics aren't you?

you need a new hobby.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Tell that to all the Paki Muslim rapists of white children over here.....

Absurd view point where now you are equating all immigrants are thus criminals based off some who have committed acts and even worse here, now any immigrant no matter their ethnicity is castiagted due to some Pakistani's

In other words idiotic

by Original Quill Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:46 pm

Cass wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

immigration has been going on in the UK for centuries. If people want less immigration pay more taxes to secure your borders and have more people looking at applications. Change your poiliticians or make your current ones follow through on promises and policies.

BUT DON'T SPUT ON AND HUMILIATE OTHERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT TO YOU.

I sympathize with this. If you carry a can of Raid Insect Spray, you can use it when they do this. Surprises the piss outta 'em.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:52 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

77% want less immigration....

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/uk-britain-immigration-survey-idUKBREA0600F20140107

That is the overwhelming majority of British people who never gave their consent for immigration anyway.

After the death of so many in WW2, Britain had a labour shortage. The UK government tried to attract as many black and Asians as possible. Immigrants rebuilt this country.

You've had a chance to register your protest at every general election since. Don't be a sore loser.

Ok, tell me one election where any party said in their manifesto that they would be bringing in mass immigration...???

The will of The British people is clear and has been clearly and consistently ignored....

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:53 pm

The BNP did, yet hardly any voted for them , because the economy has always come first to many people as it will again come election time. No matter how much hype and debate there will be on immigration before the election, it will be who has the best economic plan that will win.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:57 pm

The BNP said in their manifesto that they would be bringing in mass immigration...???

And actually THe Tories were elected under their promise to bring immigration down from hundreds of thousands to tens of thousands..... as well as their promise to have a 'bonfire of The quangos'..... neither of which happened.

by Ben Reilly Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:58 pm

Tommy, I've asked you to stop using racial slurs. Please comply.

by Fuzzy Zack Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

After the death of so many in WW2, Britain had a labour shortage. The UK government tried to attract as many black and Asians as possible. Immigrants rebuilt this country.

You've had a chance to register your protest at every general election since. Don't be a sore loser.

Ok, tell me one election where any party said in their manifesto that they would be bringing in mass immigration...???

The will of The British people is clear and has been clearly and consistently ignored....

Labour (for their second term) said they will increase the staff numbers (by 1000's) in the NHS.

Considering it takes 5 years to train far fewer doctors per year, where do you think this extra labour would be coming from?

And even if it hadn't been part of any manifesto, you knew what was happening. You could have registered your protest in every election since.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:19 pm

Increased bean counters and pen pushers in The NHS.

And while they opened the floodgates on immigration they denied it was happening and shouted down anyone who questioned it as 'racist'.

Still waiting for you to show me where any party announced any intention to open up the UK to mass immigration...???

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:24 pm

Well now I did warn about this a while back

you see the word "racist" lost its "real meaning" years ago when it became a standard slur of the lefty used in order to shut down any debate about immigration or cultural issues

for instance GB and his famous "bigot" slur against that old woman.

so now it has no power, no meaning and fails to engender any feelings about it

"YOU are a RACIST" screams the lefty....

"oh? really, aint that sad" says the target.....

The problem is THEN that the REAL racists get ignored, the real racists get away with things...

because by now

due to the lefts stupidity

It has becaome a BAD thing to accuse somebody of "racism" it is like calling them a ---- (grrrr bloody swearbot ok..... cunnus)....nasty but meaningless

ah well c'est la vie

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Tell that to all the Pakistani Muslim rapists of white children over here.....

You've been warned about this, Tommy -- stop using racial slurs unless you're quoting.

Love,
Ben

'Paki' is not a racial slur, it is just an abbreviation of 'Pakistani' and easier to type.

No different to calling an Australian an 'Aussie'.

And in fact, as the 'Pak' part of Pakistan means 'holy/ pure/ clean', to be refered to as a 'Paki' could be considered as a complementary label.

http://nation.com.pk/letters/19-Jan-2013/the-true-meaning-of-pakistan

I think you are being a unnecessarily over sensitive about sometimg that is completely innocent and without any intended slur by just using a simple abbreviation.

by Fuzzy Zack Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Increased bean counters and pen pushers in The NHS.

And while they opened the floodgates on immigration they denied it was happening and shouted down anyone who questioned it as 'racist'.

Still waiting for you to show me where any party announced any intention to open up the UK to mass immigration...???

But you have had one party or another during that entire time (NF, BNP, UKIP) who have opposed immigration. You could and probably did vote for one these during this time.

But the vast majority rejected these parties.

Which means people like you are just acting like a sore loser. Boo hoo! Cry me a river.

by Fuzzy Zack Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Tell that to all the Pakistani Muslim rapists of white children over here.....

You've been warned about this, Tommy -- stop using racial slurs unless you're quoting.

Love,
Ben

'Paki' is not a racial slur, it is just an abbreviation of 'Pakistani' and easier to type.

No different to calling an Australian an 'Aussie'.

And in fact, as the 'Pak' part of Pakistan means 'holy/ pure/ clean', to be refered to as a 'Paki' could be considered as a complementary label.

I think you are being a unnecessarily over sensitive about sometimg that is completely innocent and without any intended slur by just using a simple abbreviation.

If it makes a difference, I agree with Tom.

Using the word in this context is not illegal.

It's not like in this case:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3145081.stm

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:39 pm

The public opinion on immigration is undeniable but totally ignored by those elected to represent the will of The people.

They instead increased immigration while denying it was happening and shouting down any one who dared to question it.

Nobody has ever voted FOR mass immigration and there has never been any official policy debate or vote in HOC to facilitate it, so it should never have been allowed to happen.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:03 pm

Of course "in your face" racism is going to go up.

When we have no control of our borders (and sorry Cass it is not a case of raising taxes and employing more guards - someone can walk up to the border and say "I am bankrupt criminal with no job or employable skills and I want to live in your country to look for work that does not exist and you have to let me in because my country of origin is a member of the EU" and that person does have to be let in (of course the African, Asian, or South American stood right behind them that is financially secure, has skills lacking in this country and an employer with job offer lined up can be refused entry because they are the wrong "race" - not "European") and we are seeing large numbers of lesser skilled workers (sorry didge the mass immigration was not made up of qualified doctors which relieved the stress on the NHS) there is inevitable pressure on wages, and the infrastructure of roads schools hospitals housing starts to creek.

People do not get a job and see an immigrant taking it and willing to do for less than was advertised they dont like it. They cannot get their children into the school down the road - but there are immigrant children there. They have to wait longer to see their doctor - and find immigrants in the waiting room when they do get there.

People then start to see immigrants as the actual problem (which UKIP does not) and they are angry with them and so start to reject them and yes become in your face racists.

The problem (as UKIP does recognize) is not the immigrants themselves but the uncontrolled system that has allowed the conditions I described to occur. UKIP do not want to stop immigration - they want to introduce controls into the system to make sure than Britain is able to benefit from immigration and not be wiped out by it.

UKIP want to be able to tell people wanting to come here that their race does not matter all that matters is what they can offer the country. The EU wont allow that - the EU insists race is everything, yes to the European race no matter what, everyone else can take their chances.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:06 pm

Vote UKIP!

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:19 pm

sphinx wrote:Of course "in your face" racism is going to go up.

When we have no control of our borders (and sorry Cass it is not a case of raising taxes and employing more guards - someone can walk up to the border and say "I am bankrupt criminal with no job or employable skills and I want to live in your country to look for work that does not exist and you have to let me in because my country of origin is a member of the EU" and that person does have to be let in (of course the African, Asian, or South American stood right behind them that is financially secure, has skills lacking in this country and an employer with job offer lined up can be refused entry because they are the wrong "race" - not "European") and we are seeing large numbers of lesser skilled workers (sorry didge the mass immigration was not made up of qualified doctors which relieved the stress on the NHS) there is inevitable pressure on wages, and the infrastructure of roads schools hospitals housing starts to creek.
Lie number one, yes we do have controls on our borders, but free movement for EU members, which works both ways, being as 2 million Brits live within the EU, all of which would not be possible without this free movement. Again you use the poor argument of criminality to back your view, anger, using what UKIP does best the fear factor, which is absurd. Again the best and most qualified person should get the job, all of which any person on this planet can apply for, using the elitist view point of birth right is absurd, especially when many of the companies in this country are foriegn

People do not get a job and see an immigrant taking it and willing to do for less than was advertised they dont like it. They cannot get their children into the school down the road - but there are immigrant children there. They have to wait longer to see their doctor - and find immigrants in the waiting room when they do get there.
So what, tht is life, you find another school, birth right does not mean you should be privileged over others, if they are working her paying into the economy. Your argument again is elitist. The same with the GP, many people who are born here do not even pay into the system, thus by your logic, should say some disabled people, children and housewives thus be last in the que, as they do not pay anything? Parents pay even less tax, than those single, so should single people be first in line based off your logic?

People then start to see immigrants as the actual problem (which UKIP does not) and they are angry with them and so start to reject them and yes become in your face racists.
Yes stupidly when they view things as badly as I have shown, where it is people like UKIP and others that stoke up unwarranted fear of people and even worse make up lies, case example Farage stating he would not live next to a Romanian, not even knowing many Romanians himself. An argument born from ignorance going off some crime stats

The problem (as UKIP does recognize) is not the immigrants themselves but the uncontrolled system that has allowed the conditions I described to occur. UKIP do not want to stop immigration - they want to introduce controls into the system to make sure than Britain is able to benefit from immigration and not be wiped out by it.
No it was some lazy Brits enjoying the benefit system, not wishing to get off their arse and get a job, which had many employers screaming out for people to fill vacancies of which many immigrants did, because there is in the country a culture of people thinking some jobs are beneath them. all of which you ignore

UKIP want to be able to tell people wanting to come here that their race does not matter all that matters is what they can offer the country. The EU wont allow that - the EU insists race is everything, yes to the European race no matter what, everyone else can take their chances.

Yep heard these same claims before, and already we see many of the people that are in UKIP and their views, hiding behind a falsehood where they will trick people into buying their stance then if in power the screws will turn. It is evident the views of many of UKIP and many of those who follow them, you being an exception, mainly because I think you have not realised you have been deceived yet

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

'Paki' is not a racial slur, it is just an abbreviation of 'Pakistani' and easier to type.

No different to calling an Australian an 'Aussie'.

And in fact, as the 'Pak' part of Pakistan means 'holy/ pure/ clean', to be refered to as a 'Paki' could be considered as a complementary label.

I think you are being a unnecessarily over sensitive about sometimg that is completely innocent and without any intended slur by just using a simple abbreviation.

If it makes a difference, I agree with Tom.

Using the word in this context is not illegal.

It's not like in this case:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3145081.stm

You do realise though he is intending its use to be derogatory, with the intent to insult.
It may not be illegal, but he is intending its use to be an insult.
It also shows his immaturity.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:28 pm

Didge which of us do you think knows - really knows - more UKIPers than the other? Which of us do you think spends time talking with them and listening to them and knows what they are like?

I believe it is me - as I am active in the party.

What you hear from me is typical of what most kippers are saying - I am not the exception, very definitely not the exception. I cannot get why you insist that my position is unusual among followers. You are trying to tell me that my own experiences are not the reality while what you describe to me and I have never experienced is the reality when all the while you have never got close enough to have your own first class experiences.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:35 pm

sphinx wrote:Didge which of us do you think knows - really knows - more UKIPers than the other? Which of us do you think spends time talking with them and listening to them and knows what they are like?

I believe it is me - as I am active in the party.

What you hear from me is typical of what most kippers are saying - I am not the exception, very definitely not the exception. I cannot get why you insist that my position is unusual among followers. You are trying to tell me that my own experiences are not the reality while what you describe to me and I have never experienced is the reality when all the while you have never got close enough to have your own first class experiences.

Again you think you know, you may meet like minded people, but I see and read and meet people of UKIP with the arguments used, that is all I need to know about the people behind UKIP and as seen have seen Farage many times and the rhetoric he uses, which is very much fear based.
I think in time you will see you are being deceived, I just think many people where again off the back of a recession look to point the finger of blame at people and immigrants are an easy target, so is the EU. Such rhetoric does unite people because it is based off fear and seeks to make people look away from real problems. Immigration has been very beneficial to this country even more so with foreign investment and companies, all of which this country could place at risk with a xenophobic view, which is used against immigrants, none of which you can deny. Anyone should have the right to apply for work in any country, just as Brits have the same right to do also. Nationalism can be a uniting factor for a nation where it can bring a sense of pride and joy, but it is also very dangerous when used to incite hate and discrmination

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:39 pm

Didge you are the man on the side of the pool who has never been deeper than his ankles shouting instructions to the person swimming in the deep end.

You think because you have read about swimming your advice is good and relevant - only problem is what you read was for scuba divers.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:43 pm

Actually I am an excellent swimmer, but your views are nothing more than a deflection to my points.
Your arguments are elitist and discriminating based on birth right, so it matters not how you perceive my views, because my views are logical and correct here. The reality is your own views conflict when you use view points as seen by waiting times or being near to the nearest school, none of which has any sense or logic to them, which of course by the same illogical stance could be used to discriminate against others based upon input and how much.
Again I have met UKIP people, I have read their policies and have heard their rhetoric, which means I have plunged into the deep end of the water, knowing full well how to swim.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:44 pm

sphinx wrote:Didge you are the man on the side of the pool who has never been deeper than his ankles shouting instructions to the person swimming in the deep end.

You think because you have read about swimming your advice is good and relevant - only problem is what you read was for scuba divers.

In-your-face racism has returned and few are fighting against it 3408175593

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:47 pm

Hey ho happy with Victors response as he is just learning to ditch his armbands not knowing he could always float without them.

Smile

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:51 pm

Didge lies again... British lived and worked in other European countries before free movement!!!

So for you to say it wouldn't be possible without free movement is a total lie!!!

Here's one for all you "progressives" out there....!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6jiNMg1PAk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The mind reading bit is particularly apt for Didge as he claims to know what I really mean by using the abbreviation 'Paki'.... even though I have already completely explained my position....!

lol!

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:51 pm

Still puts him deeper in the pool and more experienced than you

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:56 pm

No it does not and all you are doing and is a very poor attempt and deflecting from the points at hand. You know why I understand better Sphinx here, even ore so than the logic to my points is history.
I have heard much of the same rhetoric used today being used before.
It is always the same, and it is ugly, one that seeks again to deflect people away from real problems and looks to point the finger.

Now you can keep diverging Sphinx, but your arguments have no validity.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:58 pm

So did people come here before the free movement Tommy, but you need to understand that how many have left within the time of free movement which is again vast to say the least, but then there is no point debating you, as you have the immaturity of a 2 year old who has just been told he has to share his sweets, where you then proceed to have a tantrum.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:59 pm

Young Britons forced out of the housing market at home are turning their eyes abroad in an effort to get on the first rung of the property ladder.

In the past year there has been an 80 per cent spike in interest in buying foreign properties among British people aged under 40 in the past year, according to new figures.

It is a trend that is gathering pace: a similar study published in September 2013 found the number of people in their thirties buying abroad had risen by 25 per cent in two years, according to investment advisers MoneyCorp. Then the US and Spain were the most popular markets.

Recent data from ONS shows that two million people between the ages of 25 and 44 left the UK in the decade to 2012. But the overall rate of emigration is on the decline, suggesting that interest in foreign property could be driven by the desire to get on the property ladder.

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/mortgages/young-britons-buying-foreign-homes-as-way-of-getting-on-to-property-ladder-9849240.html

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:07 pm

Yes people did come here before free movement.

It was called controlled immigration.... visa and work permit system.

And it worked very well.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:12 pm

It worked far better after being as seen the country vastly benefited from mass European migration.
So thanks you just proved it is better today with immigration when it is free movement of any skilled and qualified people coming here where already we have controlled immigration outside the EU.
The door swings both ways where countless Brits have also benefited.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:21 pm

back to the OP and why racism is on the increase.....

do I give a toss if dome lefty twit says to me "you're a racist"

nope, because they have used it so much over such stupid things that it has lost all meaning....

moreover society is beginning to take the same view....which is WHY its more "in your face" again...

lefty failures, the majority dissilusioned with the "lefty promise of some sort of immigrated utopia" and the stark varience between what the lefties waffle on about and what is REALLY happening coupled by people realising that in reality there IS only so much to go round are bound to create the conditions we see.

the reality is that more and more people are beginning to see that the "lefty utopia " makes as much sense as "the american dream" and is just as illusiory./

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:26 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:back to the OP and why racism is on the increase.....

do I give a toss if dome lefty twit says to me "you're a racist"

nope, because they have used it so much over such stupid things that it has lost all meaning....

moreover society is beginning to take the same view....which is WHY its more "in your face" again...

lefty failures, the majority dissilusioned with the "lefty promise of some sort of immigrated utopia" and the stark varience between what the lefties waffle on about and what is REALLY happening coupled by people realising that in reality there IS only so much to go round are bound to create the conditions we see.

the reality is that more and more people are beginning to see that the "lefty utopia " makes as much sense as "the american dream" and is just as illusiory./

Wrong and wrong on any level, which means you think fear and fear based arguments are valid, when they have no evidence and are unfounded and have no substance to them. Where people hold an illusion belief they should have some elitist view to discriminate against others based on birth right. What is wrong there is we are not showing why such a view is wrong and that all should have a chance in life.
Your view is that a utopia that allows for all to benefit is denied because you cannot have your way. Your way is again born from an illusion, one which seems to think you can as stated many times before hold a selfish view which goes against every principle on how we teach children on how to share. You share this planet and create boundaries where none should even exist in the first place. Once you realize that then this world can then begin to advance together.
The reality is this hate has been seen before many times and it always seeks to point the finger, where they are real problems, many made by people themselves. Start to look at that and you will see the real reason for the rise of racism. Racism is again an elitist concept.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:38 pm

Waffle....

The system is creaking heavily under the strain, youth unemployment has sky rocketed, national debt and borrowing is at all time high, pressure on housing with costs of living through the roof and wages being driven down, national identity being eroded with British feeling like strangers in their own towns and cities.

But the most important thing is That we have lost our sovereignty and control over our own country and borders.

We have lost democracy when the wishes of The British people are trampled on.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:45 pm

Sovereignty is also an illusion, this is what you fail to see, you again wish to place imaginary boundaries between people based off again an elitist concept, whee you benefit off a system you never created. You center on unemployment here which is not the fault of immigrants but the system in the country, hence why people look to point the finger wrongly at others .

Again there would have been less immigration here if there had not been an elitist culture of some people here thinking some jobs were beneath them and that the system allowed for them to be better off out of work than in work. Your concept allows for the elite of any society to gain over others based upon an illusion. The fact is you should look to seek how we can improve the system for all and not just a select few, because that view logically only ever benefits the rich or those with power. Again yours is a view of selfishness, none of which you have any right to deny others. You wrongly think it does based only on being born onto a land you never helped create the system you were lucky enough to be born into.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:51 pm

Sovereignty is now an illusion while in The grasp of The corrupt dictatorship that is the EU.

Leave EU, regain sovereignty and control over our country and borders.

It is definately the current system that is To blame and that I, why it needs changing and some order restored.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Sovereignty is now an illusion while in The grasp of The corrupt dictatorship that is the EU.

Leave EU, regain sovereignty and control over our country and borders.

It is definately the current system that is To blame and that I, why it needs changing and some order restored.

Sovereignty is an illusion, where your view is you do not want to have rules made by all of many people made in the EU, but by people in London. There is no difference, only that one you view laws should be made only here, when it should not matter where the laws are made, only that the laws are right.
Again you wish to place imaginary boundaries between people, based again off nothing more than birth right. You are born here wrongly believing that nothing you did gives you rights to deny others.
One day the world will need no boundaries, that is the future you should look for, not one that is creating a new Berlin wall to keep people from getting in or out from.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:02 pm

Brasidas wrote:No it does not and all you are doing and is a very poor attempt and deflecting from the points at hand. You know why I understand better Sphinx here, even ore so than the logic to my points is history.
I have heard much of the same rhetoric used today being used before.
It is always the same, and it is ugly, one that seeks again to deflect people away from real problems and looks to point the finger.

Now you can keep diverging Sphinx, but your arguments have no validity.

In what twisted logic can the person without the experience have a better understanding than the person with the experience?

How can I deflect points when you never hear what I say but simply insist that I am saying something completely different?

The thing you need to understand is that UKIP and Farage do not invent or create fear where none existed - they respond to fears people come to them with. UKIP were not against uncontrolled immigration until they saw the harm uncontrolled immigration was doing. UKIP are still not against immigration - they only oppose uncontrolled immigration.

Do you have any argument as to uncontrolled immigration being a good thing? (please dont quote the study released last week - the fact that the "expert author" was the man who assured us opening borders to ten new EU countries would only result in 13000 extra a year when the actual number was around 200,000 says a lot)

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:06 pm

the lefty agenda...seen above

the twisted inside out logic of the lefty

quote
"Your view is that a utopia that allows for all to benefit is denied because you cannot have your way"

when the truth is

I am to be denied "my way (whatever THAT means) in order that someone else can have "their way"

in other words

I am expected to extinguish my rights, my freedoms, my safety, whatever point you wish to make....

in order that someone else...from another nation.....can have theirs

NOW IF you wish to claim (as no doubt you will) that NONE of the above are being extinguished

then that first statement (in red) is a load of twisted lefty rhetoric, that DOES NOT adress the question.....and is utterly irrelevant to the point.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:11 pm

sphinx wrote:
Brasidas wrote:No it does not and all you are doing and is a very poor attempt and deflecting from the points at hand. You know why I understand better Sphinx here, even ore so than the logic to my points is history.
I have heard much of the same rhetoric used today being used before.
It is always the same, and it is ugly, one that seeks again to deflect people away from real problems and looks to point the finger.

Now you can keep diverging Sphinx, but your arguments have no validity.

In what twisted logic can the person without the experience have a better understanding than the person with the experience?

How can I deflect points when you never hear what I say but simply insist that I am saying something completely different?

The thing you need to understand is that UKIP and Farage do not invent or create fear where none existed - they respond to fears people come to them with. UKIP were not against uncontrolled immigration until they saw the harm uncontrolled immigration was doing. UKIP are still not against immigration - they only oppose uncontrolled immigration.

Do you have any argument as to uncontrolled immigration being a good thing? (please dont quote the study released last week - the fact that the "expert author" was the man who assured us opening borders to ten new EU countries would only result in 13000 extra a year when the actual number was around 200,000 says a lot)

Absurd logic, I have experience of the people who are UKIP supporters, even more their policies and even more the rhetoric used by the, thus I have empirical evidence of UKIP, where your view is totally biased towards them, where I have the benefit of looking without bias. To put this in context, ask a religious person to look at their own faith, from the view point of an outsider, that they look as if they look at another faith or non faith as the case may be. It is a standard test, one of which I dare you to take. I do take on your points but as seen they are not logical as they are based on poor policies that UKIP holds, many of which are not based on any realities but even worse no idea what the consequences of leaving the EU will do, one that places the livelihoods of many people at risk.

There is not just one study but countless all pointing to irrefutable fact that immigration has benefited the country and no matter how you look at this the divide between those born and living here the divide is huge in money. Sorry did you just say Nigel does not invent fear, yet went onto say that nobody in their right mind would live next to a Romanian, thus making an absurd and racist fallacy view point as if there is something categorically wrong with all Romanians. That proves my point on the outsider test, you even fail to condemn something he said which many with an open mind would say is wrong. It shows you are thus not being open minded, but blinded by faith in this system and their policies. The fact is the fears people have themselves are nothing but unfounded are of their own making as there is no reason anyone cannot get along with others, To claim views of waiting and point the blame elsewhere is failing to see it is the system around why there is ques, which is what is wrong and that that needs correcting not wishing to deny others based upon an elitist system. UKIP views basically places the those at the top above all others, which you fail to see by the logic they apply. You again are blinded by what they offer, ignoring where the real problem is, within the system itself, not on people just wanting to come and work here.

by Guest Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:14 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:the lefty agenda...seen above
the twisted inside out logic of the lefty

quote
"Your view is that a utopia that allows for all to benefit is denied because you cannot have your way"

when the truth is

I am to be denied "my way (whatever THAT means) in order that someone else can have "their way"

in other words

I am expected to extinguish my rights, my freedoms, my safety, whatever point you wish to make....

in order that someone else...from another nation.....can have theirs

NOW IF you wish to claim (as no doubt you will) that NONE of the above are being extinguished

then that first statement (in red) is a load of twisted lefty rhetoric, that DOES NOT adress the question.....and is utterly irrelevant to the point.

What rights? Another illusion.
Another fallacy, left and right in views is also an illusion in this concept, where your view is wanting to have your way, and not thinking in the interest of others, born again from a selfish view point again of which you would never teach your children. So by your logic we should teach children they should always get their way now then Victor?
Really did you apply that to teaching your own children they could do as they pleased without any consequences? I think not, you see your view is completely illogical and at odds with everything you have taught, because we teach to think of others, that means everyone and not just ourselves.

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:23 pm

This is OUR country, and OUR govt that is charged with looking after OUR interests first and foremost.

Other people have THEIR OWN countries to do the same for them.

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