Iraq war III...???

First topic message reminder :




Iraq is breaking up. The Kurds have taken the northern oil city of Kirkuk that they have long claimed as their capital. Sunni fundamentalist fighters vow to capture Baghdad and the Shia holy cities further south.
Government rule over the Sunni Arab heartlands of north and central Iraq is evaporating as its 900,000-strong army disintegrates. Government aircraft have fired missiles at insurgent targets in Mosul, captured by Isis on Monday, but the Iraqi army has otherwise shown no sign of launching a counter-attack.
The nine-year Shia dominance over Iraq, established after the US, Britain and other allies overthrew Saddam Hussein, may be coming to an end. The Shia may continue to hold the capital and the Shia-majority provinces further south, but they will have great difficulty in re-establishing their authority over Sunni provinces from which their army has fled.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-crisis-islamist-militants-warn-battle-will-rage-after-seizing-mosul-and-tikrit-9530899.html



There have been reports that the army have just stripped off uniform dropped weapons and just run away!!!



In Mosul there were supposed to be about 14,000 soldiers and they have run from a couple of thousand militants.




Another thing that gets me, is that when these rebels were in Syria we kept hearing how we should be supporting them, but now they are in Iraq we should be helping fight against them.....!?

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


You mean verses you misquote?

Where does it say women and children and the elderly have to pay the Jiyza?

take your time

oh dear now you're reduced t o the old "misquoted" trick are you??

from a Muslim website

http://quran.com/9

No trick you always misquote, for example you fid not even post the full hadith did you?



It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.



Whoops


So again, where is the evidence that women, children and the elderly had to pay this tax?

Take your time

Thus two separate early documents stating who pays the Jiyza, which thus means that verse 9:29 is only in regards to able bodied men who refuse to pay the tax, clearly debunking smelly's claim that this verse is about being able to kill all Non_Muslims

Never mind smelly, I am happy to always educate you

Didge wrote:Thus two separate early documents stating who pays the Jiyza, which thus means that verse 9:29 is only in regards to able bodied men who refuse to pay the tax, clearly debunking smelly's claim that this verse is about being able to kill all Non_Muslims

Never mind smelly, I am happy to always educate you

you haven't educated me didge i knew about those documents long ago and and i was wondering when you would eventually find those

it took you long enough i must say

anyway it doenst matter, because the bottom line is that the jizya WAS taken from men women and children

it was families and households and communities that were taxed collectively

if you and your wife put all your money into a joint account, and your joint account is robbed, who suffers?? you or your wife or both??

saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163:

The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.

see??? you tax the man you tax the family

Oh dear, now smelly has no answer to the facts again:



Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz wrote to his governors telling them to relieve any people who payed the jizya from paying the jizya if they became Muslims.
Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma and the magians do not have to pay any zakat on their palms or their vines or their crops or their livestock. This is because zakat is imposed on the Muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them. As long as they are in the country they have agreed to live in, they do not have to pay anything on their property except the jizya. If, however, they trade in Muslim countries, coming and going in them, a tenth is taken from what they invest in such trade. This is because jizya is only imposed on them on conditions, which they have agreed on, namely that they will remain in their own countries, and that war will be waged for them on any enemy of theirs, and that if they then leave that land to go anywhere else to do business they will haveto pay a tenth. Whoever among them does business with the people of Egypt, and then goes to Syria, and then does business with the people of Syria and then goes to Iraq and does business with them and then goes on to Madina, or Yemen, or other similar places, has to pay a tenth.
People of the Book and magians do not have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops. The sunna still continues like that. They remain in the deen they were in, and they continue to do what they used to do. If in any one year they frequently come and go in Muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing."
Al-Muwatta 17 24.46


25.13a. Who pays jizya
Jizya is taken from the men of the people of dhimma status provided that they are both free and adult. It is not taken from their women, their children, or their slaves.
[Ibn Rushd defines it thus: what is taken from the people of disbelief in repayment for their security and sparing their lives while they remain unbelievers. It is derived from jaza' (repayment) which is exchange, because they receive security in exchange for the money they pay. We offer them security and they offer money. It is not taken from three categories: women, children and slaves because Allah Almighty has obliged it on those who can fight, and generally that is men rather than women and children.]
The Risala of 'Abdullah ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani
A Treatise on Maliki Fiqh (Including commentary from ath-Thamr ad-Dani by al-Azhari)(310/922 - 386/996)


Conclusion:

Thus two separate early documents stating who pays the Jiyza, which thus means that verse 9:29 is only in regards to able bodied men who refuse to pay the tax, clearly debunking smelly's claim that this verse is about being able to kill all Non_Muslims

actually didge the above documents are false

see this part??

Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty

the only sunnah about this is the one i have already given you, and it contains no exclusions, perhaps you can provide the qur'anic scripture or an hadith where Muhammad makes specific exclusions about women and children??

if you can provide this, then i will concede, until then im afraid no matter how many example of individuals you give, it still doesn't change anything

it is Muhammad after all who is the leader and architect of Islam

smelly_bandit wrote:actually didge the above documents are false

see this part??

Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty

the only sunnah about this is the one i have already given you, and it contains no exclusions, perhaps you can provide the qur'anic scripture or an hadith where Muhammad makes specific exclusions about women and children??

if you can provide this, then i will concede, until then im afraid no matter how many example of individuals you give, it still doesn't change anything

it is Muhammad after all who is the leader and architect of Islam
 

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


So you claim two are false based on no evidence.



PMSL

If you want evidence then look for this in history because as seen this as the case in the beginnings of Islam.

All your verse does is show why the Jiyza is required, the other two go into finer detail as to who is expected to pay.

Sorry, but you are again embarrassing yourself

The Muwaṭṭaʾ (Arabic: الموطأ‎) is the first written collection of hadith comprising the subjects of Muslim law, compiled and edited by the Imam, Malik ibn Anas.[1] Malik's best-known work, Al-Muwatta was the first legal work to incorporate and join hadith and fiqh together. The work was received with wide praise


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muwatta_Imam_Malik


Smelly gets it wrong again

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:actually didge the above documents are false

see this part??

Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty

the only sunnah about this is the one i have already given you, and it contains no exclusions, perhaps you can provide the qur'anic scripture or an hadith where Muhammad makes specific exclusions about women and children??

if you can provide this, then i will concede, until then im afraid no matter how many example of individuals you give, it still doesn't change anything

it is Muhammad after all who is the leader and architect of Islam
 

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


So you claim two are false based on no evidence.



PMSL

If you want evidence then look for this in history because as seen this as the case in the beginnings of Islam.

All your verse does is show why the Jiyza is required, the other two go into finer detail as to who is expected to pay.

Sorry, but you are again embarrassing yourself  

more smilies eh??

getting a bit wound up are you??

you are getting confused didge, i understand its due to your lack of knowledge about Islam but it doesn't excuse the fact

you have provided an hadith that talks about the sunnah, if you don't understand what the sunnah are then it would explain why you don't know that the "evidence" you have given is incorrect and more than likely fabricated

in order for your "evidence" to be reliable, you need to provide the hadith which forms the sunnah that is being referenced by your hadith

chances are you haven't got a fucking clue what i am talking about because you're ignorant of how Islam works

put it this way

you have given me the answer to a mathematical equation without proving me with the equation

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 


So you claim two are false based on no evidence.



PMSL

If you want evidence then look for this in history because as seen this as the case in the beginnings of Islam.

All your verse does is show why the Jiyza is required, the other two go into finer detail as to who is expected to pay.

Sorry, but you are again embarrassing yourself  

more smilies eh??

getting a bit wound up are you??

you are getting confused didge, i understand its due to your lack of knowledge about Islam but it doesn't excuse the fact

you have provided an hadith that talks about the sunnah, if you don't understand what the sunnah are then it would explain why you don't know that the "evidence" you have given is incorrect and more than likely fabricated

in order for your "evidence" to be reliable, you need to provide the hadith which forms the sunnah that is being referenced by your hadith

chances are you haven't got a fucking clue what i am talking about because you're ignorant of how Islam works

put it this way

you have given me the answer to a mathematical equation without proving me with the equation

I am laughing at your stupidity, you ask me to provide a hadith and the work of muwatta is a collection of hadiths you dummy.

Fucking hilarious, that is why I am laughing at you.

I have given you the evidence you requested and as seen you stated if I did you would admit you were wrong, so I hold you now to your word.

But I bet you try and weasel out of doing so

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

more smilies eh??

getting a bit wound up are you??

you are getting confused didge, i understand its due to your lack of knowledge about Islam but it doesn't excuse the fact

you have provided an hadith that talks about the sunnah, if you don't understand what the sunnah are then it would explain why you don't know that the "evidence" you have given is incorrect and more than likely fabricated

in order for your "evidence" to be reliable, you need to provide the hadith which forms the sunnah that is being referenced by your hadith

chances are you haven't got a fucking clue what i am talking about because you're ignorant of how Islam works

put it this way

you have given me the answer to a mathematical equation without proving me with the equation

I am laughing at your stupidity, you ask me to provide a hadith and the work of muwatta is a collection of hadiths you dummy.

Fucking hilarious, that is why I am laughing at you.

I have given you the evidence you requested and as seen you stated if I did you would admit you were wrong, so I hold you now to your word.

But I bet you try and weasel out of doing so

yes didge i know you laugh alot, the hundreds and hundreds of smilies is evidence of how much you laugh at things

the bottom line is that your hadith is making a direct reference to a sunnah that it is using as its own validation

until you can provide the hadith that shows the sunnah being referenced than i cannot accept it as reliable

i am i wrong ill admit it straight up, but im not going to admit im wrong just because you tell me im wrong you clown   

if you're "evidence" is flawed then you haven't proved me wrong have you??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


I am laughing at your stupidity, you ask me to provide a hadith and the work of muwatta is a collection of hadiths you dummy.

Fucking hilarious, that is why I am laughing at you.

I have given you the evidence you requested and as seen you stated if I did you would admit you were wrong, so I hold you now to your word.

But I bet you try and weasel out of doing so

yes didge i know you laugh alot, the hundreds and hundreds of smilies is evidence of how much you laugh at things

the bottom line is that your hadith is making a direct reference to a sunnah that it is using as its own validation

until you can provide the hadith that shows the sunnah being referenced than i cannot accept it as reliable  

i am i wrong ill admit it straight up, but im not going to admit im wrong just because you tell me im wrong you clown   

if you're "evidence" is flawed then you haven't proved me wrong have you??

I knew you would try and weasel out, how predicable.

You stated:

perhaps you can provide the qur'anic scripture or an hadith where Muhammad makes specific exclusions about women and children?? if you can provide this, then i will concede,


The Muwaṭṭaʾ is the first written collection of hadith comprising the subjects of Muslim law, compiled and edited by the Imam, Malik ibn Anas



DOH

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

yes didge i know you laugh alot, the hundreds and hundreds of smilies is evidence of how much you laugh at things

the bottom line is that your hadith is making a direct reference to a sunnah that it is using as its own validation

until you can provide the hadith that shows the sunnah being referenced than i cannot accept it as reliable  

i am i wrong ill admit it straight up, but im not going to admit im wrong just because you tell me im wrong you clown   

if you're "evidence" is flawed then you haven't proved me wrong have you??

I knew you would try and weasel out, how predicable.

You stated:

perhaps you can provide the qur'anic scripture or an hadith where Muhammad makes specific exclusions about women and children?? if you can provide this, then i will concede,


The Muwaṭṭaʾ is the first written collection of hadith comprising the subjects of Muslim law, compiled and edited by the Imam, Malik ibn Anas



DOH

where in the "evidence" you have provided me with, does it mention exclusions made Muhammad at all??

highlight it in red and ill concede

Oh dear someone is trying to now move the goal posts ha ha ha

Didge wrote:Oh dear someone is trying to now move the goal posts ha ha ha

i guess you've just read the evidence you posted eh??

no mention of Muhammad anywhere is there??

good try didge

almost had me, would have had me if i didn't already know you would use that hadith

 :/pwn://: 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:Oh dear someone is trying to now move the goal posts ha ha ha

i guess you've just read the evidence you posted eh??

no mention of Muhammad anywhere is there??

good try didge

almost had me, would have had me if i didn't already know you would use that hadith

 :/pwn://: 

Ha Ha, now I know I have you by posting owned.

Gotcha


As usual smelly, you have been weighed, measured and left found wanting as per usual.

Al-Muwata is a complete record of the legal and social parameters of the original Muslim community in Al-Madina. Imam Malik composed the 'Muwatta' over a period of forty years to represent the "well-trodden path" of the people of Madinah. Its name also means that it is the book that is "many times agreed upon"- about whose contents the people of Madinah were unanimously agreed. Its high standing is such that people of every school of fiqh and all of the imams of hadith scholarship agree upon its authenticity. Imam Shafi'i famously said, "There is not on the face of the earth a book - after the Book of Allah - which is more authentic than the book of Malik."



Oh dear

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

i guess you've just read the evidence you posted eh??

no mention of Muhammad anywhere is there??

good try didge

almost had me, would have had me if i didn't already know you would use that hadith

 :/pwn://: 

Ha Ha, now I know I have you by posting owned.

Gotcha


As usual smelly, you have been weighed, measured and left found wanting as per usual.

declaring yourself the winner again eh??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Ha Ha, now I know I have you by posting owned.

Gotcha


As usual smelly, you have been weighed, measured and left found wanting as per usual.

declaring yourself the winner again eh??

Hardly and have no need to, I never have a need to with you in fact and if you look you were the one claiming you owned me on this debate, so that is comical.

It was you stating you would concede, and yet you fail to do so when surrounded by such damning evidence, you now are just make poor excuses showing to the forum what a weasel you really are mate.

Lets read this again just to embarrass you further:


Al-Muwata is a complete record of the legal and social parameters of the original Muslim community in Al-Madina. Imam Malik composed the 'Muwatta' over a period of forty years to represent the "well-trodden path" of the people of Madinah. Its name also means that it is the book that is "many times agreed upon"- about whose contents the people of Madinah were unanimously agreed. Its high standing is such that people of every school of fiqh and all of the imams of hadith scholarship agree upon its authenticity. Imam Shafi'i famously said, "There is not on the face of the earth a book - after the Book of Allah - which is more authentic than the book of Malik."



Oh dear

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

declaring yourself the winner again eh??

Hardly and have no need to, I never have a need to with you in fact and if you look you were the one claiming you owned me on this debate, so that is comical.

It was you stating you would concede, and yet you fail to do so when surrounded by such damning evidence, you now are just make poor excuses showing to the forum what a weasel you really are mate.

Lets read this again just to embarrass you further:


Al-Muwata is a complete record of the legal and social parameters of the original Muslim community in Al-Madina. Imam Malik composed the 'Muwatta' over a period of forty years to represent the "well-trodden path" of the people of Madinah. Its name also means that it is the book that is "many times agreed upon"- about whose contents the people of Madinah were unanimously agreed. Its high standing is such that people of every school of fiqh and all of the imams of hadith scholarship agree upon its authenticity. Imam Shafi'i famously said, "There is not on the face of the earth a book - after the Book of Allah - which is more authentic than the book of Malik."



Oh dear

irrelevant

it is not Muhammad decree

you fail to provide evidence of MUHHAMAD making stipulation to the jizya

since you cannot provide any credible evidence, we must conclude that the actions of ISIS and the like, are perfectly in line with islamic teachings

after all ISIS are Muslims, they would know best

Baghdad (AINA) -- According to Alsumaria News, an Arabic language website, the High Commission for Human Rights in Iraq has confirmed that ISIS has begun imposing the jizya, a poll tax, on Christian citizens in Mosul in an attempt to put pressure on them and displace them from the city. The Commission denounced this and called on the government and the international community to put an end to it.

A member of the Council of High Commission for Human Rights in Iraq, Salama AlKhafaji, stated in an interview that ISIS "is imposing on Christians a minimum payment of $250, with amount varying depending on the type of work/profession performed by Christian citizens." She further said that "the economic situation in Mosul is extremely difficult, and there are no financial resources or job opportunities except for vegetable shops, any other businesses are non-existent. Citizens are at a loss now as to how to make ends meet; how can they pay those amounts to ISIS?"

Ms. AlKhafaji denounced "this work", calling on the Iraqi government and the international community to "put an end to this matter."

Sources in the Nineveh province confirmed on Friday that ISIS has begun imposing jizya on Christians in Mosul, so as not to kill them or seize their property

http://www.aina.org/news/20140621123203.htm

The religion of peace and tolerance....

Fucking wankers.

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Hardly and have no need to, I never have a need to with you in fact and if you look you were the one claiming you owned me on this debate, so that is comical.

It was you stating you would concede, and yet you fail to do so when surrounded by such damning evidence, you now are just make poor excuses showing to the forum what a weasel you really are mate.

Lets read this again just to embarrass you further:


Al-Muwata is a complete record of the legal and social parameters of the original Muslim community in Al-Madina. Imam Malik composed the 'Muwatta' over a period of forty years to represent the "well-trodden path" of the people of Madinah. Its name also means that it is the book that is "many times agreed upon"- about whose contents the people of Madinah were unanimously agreed. Its high standing is such that people of every school of fiqh and all of the imams of hadith scholarship agree upon its authenticity. Imam Shafi'i famously said, "There is not on the face of the earth a book - after the Book of Allah - which is more authentic than the book of Malik."



Oh dear

irrelevant

it is not Muhammad decree

you fail to provide evidence of MUHHAMAD making stipulation to the jizya

since you cannot provide any credible evidence, we must conclude that the actions of ISIS and the like, are perfectly in line with islamic teachings

after all ISIS are Muslims, they would know best  

Epic fail and all can see it as well, as stated you once again got schooled on something you claim to be an expert on, funny that.

You were given credible evidence, you offered none from the beginnings, after asking over 50 times, you failed.

I suggest you get over that, because it proves you can never admit when you are wrong, you could not even prove children are charge with having to pay and gave some lame crap on families, that was both desperate and funny.

Hey ho, always fun showing you up

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

irrelevant

it is not Muhammad decree

you fail to provide evidence of MUHHAMAD making stipulation to the jizya

since you cannot provide any credible evidence, we must conclude that the actions of ISIS and the like, are perfectly in line with islamic teachings

after all ISIS are Muslims, they would know best  

Epic fail and all can see it as well, as stated you once again got schooled on something you claim to be an expert on, funny that.

You were given credible evidence, you offered none from the beginnings, after asking over 50 times, you failed.

I suggest you get over that, because it proves you can never admit when you are wrong, you could not even prove children are charge with having to pay and gave some lame crap on families, that was both desperate and funny.

Hey ho, always fun showing you up

desperate didge doing your  :-:bravo:-: trick again eh??

you have given me exactly nothing

there is no evidence that Muhammad made exclusions to he jizya

you are saying that Muhammad is not the prophet of Islam but rather this malik is, since you seem to think the word of some other Muslim overrides Muhammads

you have given "evidence" to how a single person has acted and you've called it "historical evidence"

as for children being charged?? i noticed that you were really hard up on that so i let you run with it, but please tell me how you think a child could be charged money when they dont earn income??

you've made a big deal about how good jizya is because it isn't enforced against children

no shit sherlock  ::smthg:: even Muslims are that stupid to think they can get money out of babes and children

now where is the evidence that muhhamad made exclusions to the jizya??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:



Epic fail and all can see it as well, as stated you once again got schooled on something you claim to be an expert on, funny that.

You were given credible evidence, you offered none from the beginnings, after asking over 50 times, you failed.

I suggest you get over that, because it proves you can never admit when you are wrong, you could not even prove children are charge with having to pay and gave some lame crap on families, that was both desperate and funny.

Hey ho, always fun showing you up

desperate didge doing your  :-:bravo:-: trick again eh??

you have given me exactly nothing

there is no evidence that Muhammad made exclusions to he jizya

you are saying that Muhammad is not the prophet of Islam but rather this malik is, since you seem to think the word of some other Muslim overrides Muhammads

you have given "evidence" to how a single person has acted and you've called it "historical evidence"

as for children being charged?? i noticed  that you were really hard up on that so i let you run with it, but please tell me how you think a child could be charged money when they dont earn income??

you've made a big deal about how good jizya is because it isn't enforced against children

no shit sherlock  ::smthg:: even Muslims are that stupid to think they can get money out of babes and children

now where is the evidence that muhhamad made exclusions to the jizya??

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

That is the point you fuckwit children do not earn money, well done, so how could they be charged, so how is it a verse that allows to kill all Non-Muslims?

Fucking hilarious he proves himself wrong, with a little help in the right direction of course.

Score smelly I knew you would get there in the end, even though we both know you got utterly schooled on this already but won't accept when you are wrong 

So you are saying Malik is not taught as an authentic authority by Muslims on hadiths now?

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

You really cannot make it up how desperate you are

precisely the point didge

how do children get fed??

where do their clothes come from?

you correctly point out that children do not work therefore we know that children are reliant on their parents for their lifes needs which their parents earn money to provide

Muslims tax the parents of the child and those parents can no longer support the child, the child suffers

so tell us again how the children aren't taxed??

as for your hadith didge it is not the final authority on Islam is it??

malik is not Muhammad

it is irrelevant what malik said or did,because he is not acting in the manner of the earliest Muslims ie Muhammad

ISIS however are, in fact if Muhammad was alive today he would be leading ISIS

keep the smilies going didge it REALLY lets people know how relaxed you are

any danger of a hadith where MUHAMMAD makes exclusions to the jizya??

smelly_bandit wrote:precisely the point didge
how do children get fed??
where do their clothes come from?
you correctly point out that children do not work therefore we know that children are reliant on their parents for their lifes needs which their parents earn money to provide
Muslims tax the parents of the child and those parents can no longer support the child, the child suffers
so tell us again how the children aren't taxed??
as for your hadith didge it is not the final authority on Islam is it??
malik is not Muhammad
it is irrelevant what malik said or did,because he is not acting in the manner of the earliest Muslims ie Muhammad
ISIS however are, in fact if Muhammad was alive today he would be leading ISIS  
keep the smilies going didge it REALLY lets people know how relaxed you are
any danger of a hadith where MUHAMMAD makes exclusions to the jizya??

You have proved my point, if children are thus not charged a tax proving my point they are exempt, which you claimed they were charged earlier by the way, now you back track, how can they be legitimate targets to kill?

I have shown you evidence for the time, what did you offer for the time.

Zero

Take your time

never claimed children were charged once on this thread didge

i said women and men were charged and i maintain that to be the case based on what is happening in Muslim countries

as for evidence of the time



Bukhari (53:386)
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."

no exclusions

Muslim (19:4294)
If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

no exclusions

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

no exclusions



even osama bin laden agrees

Osama bin Laden echoes this order from his prophet: "Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam … . Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.”

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

no exclusions anywhere

So it is not a verse to kill all Non-Muslims, because now you are exempting children.

Oh dear.

Women were exempt also, which has been proven, which you can offer no verses to show otherwise for the time

So now you hinge your argument on what Bin Laden thought?

And he now represents all of Islam did he?

Fuck me, how desprate can you get.

So with the logic of smelly, Brevik represented all of Christendom.

Didge wrote:So it is not a verse to kill all Non-Muslims, because now you are exempting children.

Oh dear.

Women were exempt also, which has been proven, which you can offer no verses to show otherwise for the time

So now you hinge your argument on what Bin Laden thought?

And he now represents all of Islam did he?

Fuck me, how desprate can you get.

So with the logic of smelly, Brevik represented all of Christendom.

its a verse to kill all non Muslim until they convert or pay the jizya men and women,unless of course you cannot read and understand english.

children are not "exempt" you fuckwit, saying children are exempt form the jizya is like saying uk children are exempt from paying income tax to inland revenue you retard  ::smthg:: 

bin laden represents the purest Muhammadan male, OBL followed in the footsteps of his prophet, he even echoes his thoughts and words and lived his life by Muhammad example, so in a sense OBL does represent ISLAM

little fake wannbe Muslims like sexymama are pale imitations of what Muslim should be and would be killed by the more devout ones like OBL

bottomline is that i have now provided you several times over with examples of how Islam was practiced by MUHAMMAD the founder of the religion, his subsequent followers followed in his footsteps and are doing so today

there is no arguing the fact that individual Muslim commanders and governors may have been compassionate and merciful to their non Muslim subjects,but overall those were only a few

the rest acted like ISIS and AL-Q

So smelly has proved himself it is not a verse that allows to kill all Non_Muslims, hilarious, so easy to lull him into showing his own views are wrong.

I have shown women were exempt from the beginnings of Islam, you have provided no evidence from the time to refute this, so your just clutching yet again at straws

So now you attack Sexy and now claim she is not a Muslim, which by your logic around 1,499 million Muslims are now fake Muslims.

You have provided fuck all, and you are getting schooled on history and theology, as you always do.

I suggest you put up or shut up sunshine, because as seen you have failed to provide any evidence to back your claim from the beginnings that women had to pay this tax. Even though you have made an own goal now admitting that children are exempt and thus when extremists kill children, they are thus going against Islam, so really the 1,499 million Muslims are not fake after all then, because they do not kill children or believe they should. I mean children do not have to pay a tax, so why would you fight them until them do?

DOH

Fucking hilarious, to easily show up the daft logic of smelly

I suggest you put up or shut up sunshine, because as seen you have failed to provide any evidence to back your claim from the beginnings that women had to pay this tax. Even though you have made an own goal now admitting that children are exempt and thus when extremists kill children, they are thus going against Islam, so really the 1,499 million Muslims are not fake after all then, because they do not kill children or believe they should



i guess you think this is evidence of how well Muslims treat non Muslim children eh didge??

No that is not evidence I asked for.

Put up or shut up sunshine ha ha

Children abducted by ISIS may be used in suicide attacks

ANSAmed) - BEIRUT - The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) warned on Wednesday that the 145 Kurdish elementary students kidnapped on May 29 in northern Syria by jihadists were at risk of being brainwashed and used in suicide attacks. The NGO blamed the abduction on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), which controls vast swathes of northeastern Syria and which last week launched an offensive in northern Iraq with the declared intention of creating a transnational 'Caliphate'. The London-based human rights organization, which uses a large network of informers inside Syria to collect information, the children were taken hostage on the road between Aleppo and Manbej on their way to their hometown Kobani, after taking year-end exams in regime-held areas of Aleppo. Some residents of Kobani have expressed concerns that the children might be brainwashing into sacrificing their lives in suicide attacks. Five of the children - who managed to escape - have said that they had received lectures from their kidnappers ''on jihad against God's enemies and apostates''. In late May, ISIS kidnapped 193 other Kurdish civilians between the ages of 17 and 70 in the town of Qubasin, near Al-Bab in the Aleppo province. ISIS, which includes many foreign fighters in its ranks and among its leaders, is fighting in Syria both against the regime and against other rebel groups including Jabhat Al-Nusra, an Al-Qaeda affiliate. ISIS was also initially part of Al-Qaeda but later broke away from it. In the areas under its control it has imposed harsh rules and corporal punishment inspired by traditional Islamic law. It bans alcohol and smoking and forces women to wear niqabs or full Islamic veils in public. (ANSAmed).

http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2014/06/18/children-abducted-by-isis-may-be-used-in-suicide-attacks_28ae32e1-f7a9-4add-acc8-7c9789b8da2b.html

Pictured: The football fans, some as young as 11, who fell victim to suicide bomber who targeted World Cup watchers in Nigeria

The dead lie stacked up on trays, while the survivors fight for their lives in hospital.

These are the young victims of a suicide bomber triggered an explosion while football fans were watching the World Cup in Nigeria.

At least 14 people were killed in the blast which went off in Damaturu, the capital of Yobe state, soon after the Brazil vs Mexico game on Tuesday night.

Witnesses said a tricycle taxi was driven into the outdoor area before the bomb went off.

Police said the death toll was 14, with 26 people wounded. One hospital worker told the BBC however that he had counted 21 bodies.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility but Boko Haram, an armed Islamic group that wants to turn Nigeria into an Islamic state, was suspected.

Security experts have warned that Islamic militants might attack crowds watching the World Cup in public places in Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda, as they did in 2010 in Uganda.

The explosions in Kampala, Uganda, at two sites where people watched the 2010 World Cup final on TV killed 74 people. Al-Shabab, a Somali insurgent group, set off those bombs.

Nigeria's military has promised increased security but appears incapable of halting a stream of attacks by extremists holding more than 250 schoolgirls hostage.

Police assistant superintendent Nathan Cheghan said rescue workers were being careful for fear of secondary explosions, often timed to kill people who rush to the scene of a bomb blast.

The kidnapping of the girls two months ago and failure of Nigeria's military and government to rescue them has roused international concern.

The United States is searching for the girls with drones and has sent experts along with Britain and France to help in counter-terrorism tactics and hostage negotiation.

Boko Haram's leader Abubakar Shekau has threatened to sell the girls into slavery unless the government agrees to exchange them for detained extremists, but President Goodluck Jonathan has said he will not exchange prisoners.

Nigeria's military has said it knows where the girls are but that any military campaign could get them killed.

Boko Haram wants to enforce an Islamic state in Nigeria, Africa's biggest oil producer, with a population almost equally divided between Christians and Muslims.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2660943/Suicide-bombing-targets-football-fans-watching-World-Cup-Nigeria-At-seven-dead-attack-Brazil-vs-Mexico-match.html#ixzz35UMk028q
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Militants with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria recently staged a festive public execution in Syria where small children were welcomed to the event as spectators.

In video of the event posted online, a child can clearly be seen toting a machine gun and dozens of others take front row seats among the other spectators. On at least two occasions, a baby can be heard crying in the background.

The point-blank execution shooting of the two men, who were not identified, was capped off by enthusiastic shouts of “Allahu akbar” and the crucifixion-style tying up of the slain men as a chilling deterrent to those who oppose the jihadist terrorist group.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/19/isis-holds-festive-public-execution-in-syria-complete-with-music-and-small-children-in-attendance-graphic/

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

Still no evidence from the beginnings of Islam, just poor examples of what extremists do.

Try again

“…two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed…”

(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 819)

well on that we can agree didge

Muhammad was definitely an "extremist"

Still no evidence.

Try again

so in conclusion to a very tedious thread

we see that Muhammad himself approved of the killing of women and children

we see that Muhammad placed on a single criteria on those who should be fought and killed - they had to be non Muslims

we have seen that individual Muslims throughout history have shown mercy and compassion towards their non Muslim subjects but that these individuals were only a few

we see that Muslims like OBL echo the thoughts of Muhammad and we see Muslims jihadists acting the manner they are told to by Muhammad - including killing women and children

we see these groups like ISIS extorting a protection tax from non Muslims in return for not killing them and we can see that the only threat faced by non Muslims are the Muslims themselves

thus we conclude that jizya is nothing more than an extortion tax, no different to what the mafia do

end of conversation

Conclusion, the verse does not advocate killing all Non-Muslims, no evidence presented to back such an assertion from the beginnings of Islam and after pages of asking no evidence is forth coming.

Smelly has just immortalized the term clutching at straws.


Evidence?

Put up or shut up, it is that simple

Children who have reached puberty are charged but are still children, also a family will be charged as a collective group and more demanded from them based on number of family, or A group of Christians will be charged as a collective, so all technically charged.



This still does not get away from the fact that this is simply a local extortion racket, demanding protection money to not be killed by the 'protectors'.



ie saying the Muslims who are the only threat to their safety to not kill them.



They are no more than bullies, don't here much out of them when they are in small numbers. But when big enough group of them they start feeling brave and harassing others with their ridiculous demands and extortion racket.

Still does not back the view this is Islamic teaching, again provide evidence from the beginnings of Islam, not what some extremists believe, as if we use that logic again Brevik represents all of Christendom

False argument as Brfvik was just one lone nut case.



We have huge organised groups of Muslims behaving in exactly the same way.



Plus their guide book that tells them it's alright to persecute non Muslims and extort money from them in return for not killing them.....



Plus all the examples shown above.



Denial is just making you look silly dodge and completely without impartiality.

Is he just one such nut case?

Incorrect


So again no evidence to back your assertions from the beginnings of Islam.

Try again

Brevik was definately one lone nut case.


However it is indisputable that Muslims are operating in large numbers in a way they think is instructed in their guide book.



The subjugation of non Muslims is proclaimed in this book and enforcement of jizya is also proclaimed.



This is nothing more than an extortion style protection racket as has already been discussed.


The only protection needed is from the very people who are demanding payment, along with the very real threat of 'pay up or else'....



You almost sound like you Are defending this extortion Dodge...???



You already earlier on this thread described this jizya extortion as being 'our tax'..... it most certainly is not ours as in UK/British/non Muslim..... so I can only assume that you were meaning 'our tax' as 'our Muslim tax on non Muslims' and therefore identifying yourself as a Muslim and a supporter of This extortion on non Muslims....!!!???



On another thread elsewhere when previously talking about white British being less than 50% in London, you previously stated "...they still are the biggest race in London...".


"They", not "we" as would be expected by someone who classes themselves as white British as you claim to be.....



Just another slip up to be added to The list from you dodge.....!!!

So deflecting now because you have no evidence an there is also other far right Christian extremists that have killed, so you have not the first clue what you are talking about.

Again post evidence from the beginnings of Islam?


Not sure how many times am going to ask this and have countless excuses provided