Young mother, 24, is shot dead in front of her fiancé after saying "all lives matter" during an argument with Black Lives Matter supporters

First topic message reminder :

Jessica Doty Whitaker, 24, was shot dead on  July 5 in Indianapolis, Indiana
Whitaker, her fiancé Jose Ramirez and two others were reportedly walking along the canal when one of them allegedly used the n-word
A nearby group of people heard the phrase and a confrontation was sparked
During the argument, Whitaker responded 'All lives matter' when the other group said 'Black Lives Matter'
Whitaker, a home health nurse, leaves behind a three-year-old son
She was one of three people shot dead at Indianapolis' canal last week, and one of several over Fourth of July weekend


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html

Of course Black lives matter, but the organisation is being over run with hateful extremists

Nobody deserves to be murdered for an opinion and these comments show up. 

Activists from BLM have been attacking the public facebook of Jessica Whitaker.
They are celebrating her death and mocking her family members. She never even used a racial slur and this shows how dangerous the movement is becoming

This is sick beyond belief and I fear that the US is spirally down a path that will end in mass violence and civil war

phil wrote:I mean are you seriously telling ,me that in all the US states that African Americans suffer a perceived systemic racism worse than people being homeless?

Yes. Let me reverse the question, cause that's how it is best expressed: Are you seriously telling me that in all the US states, there is somewhere African Americans do not feel systematic racism...at all? There is no such covey, no matter how small.

Let me sum it up by one renowned African American:

If you're black in America, race is a factor in your life. Start with that assumption. –Henry Hampton

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:I mean are you seriously telling ,me that in all the US states that African Americans suffer a perceived systemic racism worse than people being homeless?

Yes.  Let me reverse the question, cause that's how it is best expressed: Are you seriously telling me that in all the US states, there is somewhere African Americans do not feel systematic racism...at all?  There is no such covey, no matter how small.

Let me sum it up by one renowned African American:

If you're black in America, race is a factor in your life. Start with that assumption.  –Henry Hampton

Then you are part of the problem.

I mean seriously wow

Nobody denies being black can lead to a life of stigma, but you think that is worse that having no home and living on the streets

Shows you have no idea what you are talking about

You are simple someone white, thinking you can speak for and speak over African Americans

Word to wise, you cannot

phil wrote:Nobody denies being black can lead to a life of stigma, but you think that is worse that having no home and living on the streets

Well, if you are white, yes. But, if you are black it’s worse than “a life of stigma.” If you are black you can be killed at anytime, and your killer will have complete impunity.

Take, for example, the case of Amaud Arbery, a black man. He was murdered while jogging on the streets of Brunswick, GA. The police/prosecutors tried to protect and hide the white killers until a clip of the killing appeared on the Internet. Their actions tell the killers, go ahead, exterminate blacks…just don’t get caught or we’ll have to punish you. This is the south, mind you. How many murders like this were covered up by officials before the Internet and cell phone cameras?

It's clear that the system works against people of color, and I'd rather be homeless than dead. Heavens! Wouldn't you?

If you were dead,
you wouldn't give a fuck if you were homeless !

Do others not think the BLM movement, or perhaps more accurately, the people who have latched on and are generating most of the publicity, are now causing more harm than good?

Yes... because that's what they are really interested in...

Tommy Monk wrote:


Yes... because that's what they are really interested in...

I think the kind of extremist trouble causers who latch on to any cause and always make the most noise, are obviously the ones who are causing all the resentment.
The black v white attitude seems more pronounced now than ever in some parts..

Tommy Monk wrote:Yes... because that's what they are really interested in...

Why would they seek harm? No money in it.

It's change they want.

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes... because that's what they are really interested in...

I think the kind of extremist trouble causers who latch on to any cause and always make the most noise, are obviously the ones who are causing all the resentment.
The black v white attitude  seems more pronounced now than ever in some parts..

What you are saying is that the trouble makers are distinct and separate from legitimate protesters. This is what I have been saying, too.

Looters and defacers are not BLM, but are "trouble causers", as you say, along for the ride.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I think the kind of extremist trouble causers who latch on to any cause and always make the most noise, are obviously the ones who are causing all the resentment.
The black v white attitude  seems more pronounced now than ever in some parts..

What you are saying is that the trouble makers are distinct and separate from legitimate protesters.  This is what I have been saying, too.

Looters and defacers are not BLM, but are "trouble causers", as you say, along for the ride.

Yes that's what I see happening. The bigger problem will come IF legitimate BLM supporters are carried along by the propaganda.

Syl wrote:Do others not think the BLM movement, or perhaps more accurately, the people who have latched on and are generating most of the publicity, are now causing more harm than good?

Yes. Because they have an agenda that has little to do with decreasing police abuse. They just see BLM as a popular movement to corrupt for their own needs.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:Do others not think the BLM movement, or perhaps more accurately, the people who have latched on and are generating most of the publicity, are now causing more harm than good?

Yes. Because they have an agenda that has little to do with decreasing police abuse. They just see BLM as a popular movement to corrupt for their own needs.  

Seems like for once you and Quill agree.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yes. Because they have an agenda that has little to do with decreasing police abuse. They just see BLM as a popular movement to corrupt for their own needs.  

Seems like for once you and Quill agree.

Not really. There are plenty of people not looting or defacing that will use this movement for their own agenda.

Looters dont really have a political agenda. They just want stuff or to destroy the stuff of others.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

Seems like for once you and Quill agree.

Not really. There are plenty of people not looting or defacing that will use this movement for their own agenda.  

Looters dont really have a political agenda.  They just want stuff or to destroy the stuff of others.  

That's true too, the video's of the blacks in America looting the sportswear shops was pretty self explanatory.
The ones who are doing a lot of the shouting and encouraging hatred are worse, they are the ones who are causing further division between black and white.

Anyway, you and Quill both agreed with a point I made, so in fact you did agree with each other....in a roundabout way.

Dont fight it.

Syl wrote:Anyway, you and Quill both agreed with a point I made, so in fact you did agree with each other....in a roundabout way.

Dont fight it.

Hahaha...best not to mention that. Red is massively jealous of me, and any suggestion of congruence will tickle that itch.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Not really. There are plenty of people not looting or defacing that will use this movement for their own agenda.  

Looters dont really have a political agenda.  They just want stuff or to destroy the stuff of others.  

That's true too, the video's of the blacks in America looting the sportswear shops was pretty self explanatory.
The ones who are doing a lot of the shouting and encouraging  hatred are worse,  they are the ones who are causing further division between black and white.

I think Policeman Derek Chauvin was a sufficient trigger in that regard.

Basically, southerners and white supremacists are the "ones who are causing further division between black and white."

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Anyway, you and Quill both agreed with a point I made, so in fact you did agree with each other....in a roundabout way.

Dont fight it.

Hahaha...best not to mention that.  Red is massively jealous of me, and any suggestion of congruence will tickle that itch.

Jealousy is a strong word to use on a forum. I have seen what looks to me suspiciously like jealousy in a very few female posters ,(not here) never in the males.
I think it's more a case of you and Maddog just lock horns because you are usually on opposite sided of whichever fence is under discussion.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

That's true too, the video's of the blacks in America looting the sportswear shops was pretty self explanatory.
The ones who are doing a lot of the shouting and encouraging  hatred are worse,  they are the ones who are causing further division between black and white.

I think Policeman Derek Chauvin was a sufficient trigger in that regard.

Basically, southerners and white supremacists are the "ones who are causing further division between black and white."

I think Derek Chauvin was a gift to the BLM extremists and hangers on.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I think Policeman Derek Chauvin was a sufficient trigger in that regard.

Basically, southerners and white supremacists are the "ones who are causing further division between black and white."

I think Derek Chauvin was a gift to the BLM extremists and hangers on.

That's because you don't really care about black lives...or perhaps, you don't believe it is really happening. You see this as a competition, and George Floyd's death as merely a fortuitous opportunity for one side.

I think most whites follow that line of thinking. Whites tend to think slavery is behind them, segregation is over, and that incidents like Chauvin's killing of George Floyd are isolated incidents of a malignant personality.

Statistics like police kill 3.5 black men for every white man in America, are generally dismissed or chalked up to the need for harsher treatment in the inner city...thinking effect, when it is in fact the cause. Don't feel bad...southerners actually consciously promote that thinking, they so hate blacks.

That's the reason for Amexit, and getting rid of the southern states. The correction is not going to happen on its own. We will go to thinking it’s over, until another George Floyd incident reveals that it’s not. Then we will go back to sleep, until it happens again…then back to sleep, and it happens again. And on it goes… We’ve all seen enough to know what I’m talking about it true. Until we breach that divide, there will always be racism. We need to cut out the malignancy, and let them drift away on their own.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I think Derek Chauvin was a gift to the BLM extremists and hangers on.

That's because you don't really care about black lives...or perhaps, you don't believe it is really happening.  You see this as a competition, and George Floyd's death as merely a fortuitous opportunity for one side.

I think most whites follow that line of thinking.  Whites tend to think slavery is behind them, segregation is over, and that incidents like Chauvin's killing of George Floyd are isolated incidents of a malignant personality.

Statistics like police kill 3.5 black men for every white man in America, are generally dismissed or chalked up to the need for harsher treatment in the inner city...thinking effect, when it is in fact the cause.  Don't feel bad...southerners actually consciously promote that thinking, they so hate blacks.

That's the reason for Amexit, and getting rid of the southern states.  The correction is not going to happen on its own.  We will go to thinking it’s over, until another George Floyd incident reveals that it’s not.  Then we will go back to sleep, until it happens again…then back to sleep, and it happens again.  And on it goes…  We’ve all seen enough to know what I’m talking about it true.  Until we breach that divide, there will always be racism.  We need to cut out the malignancy, and let them drift away on their own.

I care about all lives, and that's what people who are driven by seeing racism round every corner don't understand.

I am not black, so I cant pretend I know about the subtle racism that may happen here, but like Nicko I have black relatives, and I see them in the exact same way I see my white relatives.

You as a none Brit obviously cant see that I and I suspect millions of other Brits don't treat black people any different to white people, so I for one cant share your paranoia that everyone but you is driven by racism.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's because you don't really care about black lives...or perhaps, you don't believe it is really happening. You see this as a competition, and George Floyd's death as merely a fortuitous opportunity for one side.

I think most whites follow that line of thinking. Whites tend to think slavery is behind them, segregation is over, and that incidents like Chauvin's killing of George Floyd are isolated incidents of a malignant personality.

Statistics like police kill 3.5 black men for every white man in America, are generally dismissed or chalked up to the need for harsher treatment in the inner city...thinking effect, when it is in fact the cause. Don't feel bad...southerners actually consciously promote that thinking, they so hate blacks.

That's the reason for Amexit, and getting rid of the southern states. The correction is not going to happen on its own. We will go to thinking it’s over, until another George Floyd incident reveals that it’s not. Then we will go back to sleep, until it happens again…then back to sleep, and it happens again. And on it goes… We’ve all seen enough to know what I’m talking about it true. Until we breach that divide, there will always be racism. We need to cut out the malignancy, and let them drift away on their own.

I care about all lives, and that's what people who are driven by seeing racism round every corner don't understand.

I am not black, so I cant pretend I know about the subtle racism that may happen here, but like Nicko I have black relatives, and I see them in the exact same way I see my white relatives.

You as a none Brit obviously cant see that I and I suspect millions of other Brits don't treat black people any different to white people, so I for one cant share your paranoia that everyone but you is driven by racism.

I know you care, but you just don't care enough to do something about the greater proportion by which blacks lose their lives to police. In fact, any systemic bias is too remote and abstract. In fairness to you, I think that is the position of most white people. It's not that they are racists, it is just that they are indifferent to the hardships that are visited on others...even if it's loss of life.

But, if you take this universally, why did the UK go to war when Czechoslovakia was invaded by Germany? As a matter of fact, what pulled the US into that war? The US Congress had passed four Neutrality Acts in an effort to stay out of Europe's wars.

Blacks are at war, by now, in real time with the police, and indeed with systemic racism. Conflict is conflict. If you are indifferent, you will forgive the fact that Congress passed the four Neutrality Acts and almost kept America out of WWII. It was indifference. It took an atrocious act—Pearl Harbor—to pull the US, kicking and screaming, into Europe's war. Otherwise, indifference.

So you see, events like George Floyd's death are pulling America into another civil war. We can't go on needlessly killing blacks, and hope to get away with it. I'm not saying it's a European problem, but it is an American issue. I'm not upset that you take the position that you do, because you don't count. But I do think it matters in America.

That's why I back Amexit...severing southern states, and setting them adrift. It's a way to avoid war. It's a peaceful solution. If reasonable people come to an agreement that neither side can accept the other—which is the reality here—we will be able to part and go our separate ways. There is no slack to take in. With the destructive capabilities that we have, it is perhaps the only answer.

Original Quill wrote:

phil wrote:Nobody denies being black can lead to a life of stigma, but you think that is worse that having no home and living on the streets

Well, if you are white, yes.  But, if you are black it’s worse than “a life of stigma.”  If you are black you can be killed at anytime, and your killer will have complete impunity.

Take, for example, the case of Amaud Arbery, a black man.  He was murdered while jogging on the streets of Brunswick, GA.  The police/prosecutors tried to protect and hide the white killers until a clip of the killing appeared on the Internet.  Their actions tell the killers, go ahead, exterminate blacks…just don’t get caught or we’ll have to punish you.  This is the south, mind you.  How many murders like this were covered up by officials before the Internet and cell phone cameras?

It's clear that the system works against people of color, and I'd rather be homeless than dead.  Heavens!  Wouldn't you?

That is complete gibberish

Someone homeless, has to fight in winter every year the fear of freezing to death
Dying of hypothermia
Staving to death
Being raped
Drug overdose

Just some examples and you think the potential for maybe suffering racism due to their pigmentation of their skin is worse?

One word to say to that

Bollocks

Didgee wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Well, if you are white, yes.  But, if you are black it’s worse than “a life of stigma.”  If you are black you can be killed at anytime, and your killer will have complete impunity.

Take, for example, the case of Amaud Arbery, a black man.  He was murdered while jogging on the streets of Brunswick, GA.  The police/prosecutors tried to protect and hide the white killers until a clip of the killing appeared on the Internet.  Their actions tell the killers, go ahead, exterminate blacks…just don’t get caught or we’ll have to punish you.  This is the south, mind you.  How many murders like this were covered up by officials before the Internet and cell phone cameras?

It's clear that the system works against people of color, and I'd rather be homeless than dead.  Heavens!  Wouldn't you?

That is complete gibberish

Someone homeless, has to fight in winter every year the fear of freezing to death
Dying of hypothermia
Staving to death
Being raped
Drug overdose

Just some examples and you think the potential for maybe suffering racism due to their pigmentation of their skin is worse?

One word to say to that

Bollocks

Blacks have to worry about white bullets, white arrests, white prosecutions, white juries, white prisons, and death by whites.  They face open hostility, from a much greater population.  See, Killing of Ahmaud Arbery, February 23, 2020, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery

The homeless just have to get to warm climes in the fall.  The rest of the pitfalls you mention--hunger, hypothermia, rape, drugs--are  common to everyone.  Being on the loose actually can be a chosen lifestyle if you like open freedom.  See, Orwell, George, Down and Out in Paris and London (1933).  Although homelessness is an admitted problem, many people actually choose that lifestyle.

Who would choose a mob chasing you with a noose and a shotgun?

Quill proving yet again that he has no comprehension on the percentage of risk factors

Homeless people are at greater risk of:

Freezing to death
Dying of hypothermia
Staving to death
Being raped
Drug overdose
Murder

Than the general population

"Homeless people are more likely to die young, with an average age of death of 47 years old and even lower for homeless women at 43, compared to 77 for the general population, 74 for men and 80 for women. It is important to note that this is not life expectancy; it is the average age of death of those who die on the streets or while resident in homeless accommodation."

"At the ages of 16-24, homeless people are at least twice as likely to die as their housed contemporaries; for 25-34 year olds the ratio increases to four to five times, and at ages 35-44, to five to six times. Even though the ratio falls back as the population reaches middle
age, homeless 45-54 year olds are still three to four times more likely to die than the general population, and 55-64 year olds one and a half to nearly three times."

On top of that its a daily struggle to survive and live and often in appalling conditions. Which have a major effect on their mental health, physical health.


Like, I said, its very easy for me to prove that Quill is talking bollocks

Worse case scenario....being homeless AND black.......in the US.

Didgee wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yes.

How?

All of the things you mention--unemployment, lack of universal medical care, relative poverty--or could mention, are either derived from, or exacerbated by racial discrimination.  Black unemployment rate is nearly 17% as opposed to just over 10% for whites--even while more blacks serve more in essential, if menial jobs.

As for medical care:

ABA wrote:...the National Academy of Medicine (NAM)—released a report documenting that the poverty in which black people disproportionately live cannot account for the fact that black people are sicker and have shorter life spans than their white complements. NAM found that “racial and ethnic minorities receive lower-quality health care than white people—even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable...NAM reported that minority persons are less likely than white persons to be given appropriate cardiac care, to receive kidney dialysis or transplants, and to receive the best treatments for stroke, cancer, or AIDS. It concluded by describing an “uncomfortable reality”: “some people in the United States were more likely to die from cancer, heart disease, and diabetes simply because of their race or ethnicity, not just because they lack access to health care.”

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-state-of-healthcare-in-the-united-states/racial-disparities-in-health-care/

As for poverty:

Wiki wrote:"Income levels vary along racial/ethnic lines: 21% of all children in the United States live in poverty, about 46% of black children and 40% of Latino children. The poverty rate is 9.9% for black married couples, and only 30% of black children are born to married couples (see Marriage below)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Income%20levels%20vary%20along%20racial,couples%20(see%20Marriage%20below).

See also: https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

There probably is no measurement for degradation and humiliation that people of color must suffer in the United States of America.  Only that it is worse in southern states.

Syl wrote:Worse case scenario....being homeless AND black.......in the US.

Being homeless and female is worse.

Ben did a local piece in the homeless aound here when he worked for the Star Telegram.

I wont post it. He or Eddie can if they like.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:Worse case scenario....being homeless AND black.......in the US.

Being homeless and female is worse.  

Ben did a local piece in the homeless aound here when he worked for the Star Telegram.

I wont post it. He or Eddie can if they like.  

Yes it must be incredibly scary to be a female out on the streets with nowhere to call home.

Original Quill wrote:

Didgee wrote:

How?

All of the things you mention--unemployment, lack of universal medical care, relative poverty--or could mention, are either derived from, or exacerbated by racial discrimination.  Black unemployment rate is nearly 17% as opposed to just over 10% for whites--even while more blacks serve more in essential, if menial jobs.


There probably is no measurement for degradation and humiliation that people of color must suffer in the United States of America.  Only that it is worse in southern states.

Yet again a load of horseshit, because those homeless will be far worse off than the demographics you provided
And with poverty levels, this level of poverty would  be lower for those homeless, who have no home, wealth of any means, food etc

Any more barrels for you to scrape out of?

Again homeless people are by a large margin the most disadvantaged group in societies

Your argument was that Blacks suffer worse due to racism.

Which as seen you are no longer arguing off

You have now moved the goal posts and as seen, that renders your arguments sunk

End of discussion

I suggest next time you do not come up with just about the dumbest argument going

Being as not all black people are in poverty

All homeless people are in utter poverty

Some black people have medical insurance

All homeless people do not

On every conceivable scale Quill your argument was dumb and ridiculous

Nobody denies the potential stigma, that black people face, which also homeless people face also, but to suggest. As you did that this is worse than being homeless, has been shown to be rank stupidity

Nor more needed to be said

Laters

Your word, no matter how emphatic, is not an answer to cold, hard statistical fact. QED.  You haven't said anything, didge, except to serve up more faux outrage and repeat your vacuous claims about homelessness over racism.

Faux outrage is commonplace with you; it doesn't affect me.  Repetition has no persuasive effect, except upon those already cheering.  To respond to your post would be gratuitous.

May I recommend: Chang, Hasok, “How to Take Realism beyond Foot-Stamping”, in Philosophy (vol. 76, No. 295, Jan. 2001).  See: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3752174?seq=1

And when quill cannot counter my indisputable factual points

He offers me instead a book on philosophy



Case closed

phil wrote:You lack knowledge of america history and will never be able to form a comprehensive answer based on your own ideology

I live here. I see the white myth everyday, seen through the white myopia. You are white, are you not?

We are heading toward a second civil war. I'll be over here, if you want to hear my told you so...

It would be interesting to know what you actually do about this racism Quill.

I know you talk a lot about in on here, and that may have an knock on effect on people's attitude who are reading, (one way or another) but in real life do you actively do anything to support the black community more than the average poster here?

Syl wrote:It would be interesting to know what you actually do about this racism Quill.

I know you talk a lot about in on here, and that may have an knock on effect on people's  attitude who are reading, (one way or another) but in real life do you actively do anything to support the black community more than the average poster here?

I taught university at schools in the New York area, designing several classes on race at Rutgers University and John Jay College of Criminal Justice of the City University of New York, and again at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  I also taught at the Arizona Silverbell Police Academy, and transferred over to the Arizona Civil Rights Division of the Arizona Attorney General's Office, designing statistical studies on racial patterns in law enforcement.  Turning to private practice, I started out as a civil rights lawyer and won many large judgments for women and people of color.  That still is a significant part of my firm's practice in Arizona and California.

I write legislation, position papers, books, articles, and participate in Democratic party activities as well.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:It would be interesting to know what you actually do about this racism Quill.

I know you talk a lot about in on here, and that may have an knock on effect on people's  attitude who are reading, (one way or another) but in real life do you actively do anything to support the black community more than the average poster here?

I taught university at schools in the New York area, designing several classes on race at Rutgers University and John Jay College of Criminal Justice of the City University of New York, and again at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  I also taught at the Arizona Silverbell Police Academy, and transferred over to the Arizona Civil Rights Division of the Arizona Attorney General's Office, designing statistical studies on racial patterns in law enforcement.  Turning to private practice, I started out as a civil rights lawyer and won many large judgments for women and people of color.  That still is a significant part of my firm's practice in Arizona and California.

I write legislation, position papers, books, articles, and participate in Democratic party activities as well.

Thank you for answering in such depth Quill.
I never believed people when they said you were all gas and wind anyway.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I taught university at schools in the New York area, designing several classes on race at Rutgers University and John Jay College of Criminal Justice of the City University of New York, and again at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  I also taught at the Arizona Silverbell Police Academy, and transferred over to the Arizona Civil Rights Division of the Arizona Attorney General's Office, designing statistical studies on racial patterns in law enforcement.  Turning to private practice, I started out as a civil rights lawyer and won many large judgments for women and people of color.  That still is a significant part of my firm's practice in Arizona and California.

I write legislation, position papers, books, articles, and participate in Democratic party activities as well.

Thank you for answering in such depth Quill.
I never believed people when they said you were all gas and wind anyway.

They are just jealous. Those are people who were never able to achieve themselves. I pay no mind to them.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I taught university at schools in the New York area, designing several classes on race at Rutgers University and John Jay College of Criminal Justice of the City University of New York, and again at the University of Arizona in Tucson.  I also taught at the Arizona Silverbell Police Academy, and transferred over to the Arizona Civil Rights Division of the Arizona Attorney General's Office, designing statistical studies on racial patterns in law enforcement.  Turning to private practice, I started out as a civil rights lawyer and won many large judgments for women and people of color.  That still is a significant part of my firm's practice in Arizona and California.

I write legislation, position papers, books, articles, and participate in Democratic party activities as well.

Thank you for answering in such depth Quill.
I never believed people when they said you were all gas and wind anyway.

You should.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:

Thank you for answering in such depth Quill.
I never believed people when they said you were all gas and wind anyway.

You should.  

Case in point.  

Never mind how this thread digressed.
No one should be shot for saying something just like no one should be shot by police for no reason

So let’s just say, people who kill for no reason are scumbags.

Right, Quill?

eddie wrote:So let’s just say, people who kill for no reason are scumbags.

Right, Quill?

It depends on circumstances. For example, if a woman whose husband beats her weekly, starts in again and this time she has a handgun...might be self-defense.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:So let’s just say, people who kill for no reason are scumbags.

Right, Quill?

It depends on circumstances.  For example, if a woman whose husband beats her weekly, starts in again and this time she has a handgun...might be self-defense.

That’s not “no reason” though.

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It depends on circumstances.  For example, if a woman whose husband beats her weekly, starts in again and this time she has a handgun...might be self-defense.

That’s not “no reason” though.

Yes, I missed that caveat.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It depends on circumstances.  For example, if a woman whose husband beats her weekly, starts in again and this time she has a handgun...might be self-defense.

That’s not “no reason” though.

Yes, I missed that caveat.

No problem. Like me, you’re probably a speed-reader who sometimes misses stuff.
Happens to me on here at times and I have to hold my hand up.

Didgee wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yes.

How?

I guess you just don't understand how intensely bad racism is here in America. With Trump encouraging on the white supremacists, it's only gotten worse.

Now, Trump has created his own Brown Shirted SA troops, and is deploying them to the center cities, specifically to go after blacks, particularly cities with black mayors like Chicago, Kansas City, etc.

It looks plausible that these are training runs for a coup if he is voted out of office. He's already talking about the election being rigged, citing mail-in voting, which makes no sense.

I'm pretty sure we will need the military to oust him from the White House. Hence his SA troops to fight for him. It will be interesting to watch.

I do believe that's part of the problem on forums.
Take race and racism....we all have our own experiences, and when people live in different countries, as in the UK and the US...we may listen to one another, but we cant really understand the attitudes of the people, police, government towards any minority group if we haven't actually lived amongst it as part of our own lives.

Instead of accusing others of being racist or not caring about black lives, maybe try to understand that.

Syl wrote:I do believe that's part of the problem on forums.
Take race and racism....we all have our own experiences, and when people live in different countries, as in the UK and the US...we may listen to one another, but we cant really understand the attitudes of the people, police, government towards any minority group if we haven't actually lived amongst it as part of our own lives.

Instead of accusing others of being racist or not caring about black lives, maybe try to understand that.

One thing I have learned off the Internet, is that people off-shore to us simply don't. and can't understand the depth of the racial issue.  That is because they have had no history with slavery and racism.  So, they view it existentially, as if it only happened yesterday, and tomorrow it will be gone.

This compels a sort of two-dimensional picture, where you only see the here and now.  For example, you only see that blacks live in ghettos and don't take care of their children, are prone to crime, or uneducated and work menial jobs.  Judgements flow from that picture.  People don't realize that the white, dominate population has forced blacks to live that way; they don't see it, because they don't live it.  They have no history with slavery and racism—the missing dimension.

So, racism is a complex problem, having depth, in addition to width and height.  It's hard to see a dimension—history—that you haven't lived.  Even northerners in this country learn about it from school, but think it's over, in the past, a memory, because they don't experience it existentially—until something like George Floyd happens.  That explains the magnitude of outrage over Floyd...it's honest, northern people, saying Oh fook, I thought that was all over!!

White southerners, of course, see it every day, but they like the life of racism.  After all, racism in the south has been a steady lifestyle, and they live at the top and get all of the advantages.

Well Quill, that's exactly what I said. If people have not lived alongside racism, no matter how empathetic we are, we cant pretend to truly know how deep it's ingrained in some societies.

That isn't to say that we don't care, it's not us wearing blinkers, it's just us being honest.
In the UK I personally don't just see blacks in ghettos any more than I see whites living in poverty. Everyone has the same chance of education, which is obviously the key to liberating any element in society.

I'm not pretending that some people wherever they may live are not racist, or sexist, or ageist or just plain ignorant,  but all one can do is speak out when they see anything, and believe me I do.

To be told on a forum that I simply don't care about some people because they are black....is you being blinkered not me.

Syl wrote:Well Quill, that's exactly what I said. If people have not lived alongside racism, no matter how empathetic we are, we cant pretend to truly know how deep it's ingrained in some societies.

I know. Your well-reasoned post was what prompted my thoughts.

I wanted to point out in greater detail, where if one has "not lived alongside racism", one gets a skewed perspective on this complicated issue.

You have to live within it, in order to understand. I wasn't pointing out any presumed 'not-caring' factor; I was pointing out the different picture one gets without the benefit of the historical dimension.

Nor was it even you I had in mind when I wrote that. Some people (particularly non-American) take remedial efforts to be a arithmetic assault on equality: to give x what one does not give y, seems inequitable, until you take into account the historical advantage that x has had over y all these decades.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Well Quill, that's exactly what I said. If people have not lived alongside racism, no matter how empathetic we are, we cant pretend to truly know how deep it's ingrained in some societies.

I know.  Your well-reasoned post was what prompted my thoughts.

I wanted to point out in greater detail, where if one has "not lived alongside racism", one gets a skewed perspective on this complicated issue.

You have to live within it, in order to understand.  I wasn't pointing out any presumed 'not-caring' factor; I was pointing out the different picture one gets without the benefit of the historical dimension.

Nor was it even you I had in mind when I wrote that.  Some people (particularly non-American) take remedial efforts to be a arithmetic assault on equality: to give x what one does not give y, seems inequitable, until you take into account the historical advantage that x has had over y all these decades.

Well you did write this in response to what I had said..."That's because you don't really care about black lives...or perhaps, you don't believe it is really happening" so yep, I did think you meant me.

Anyway....it's sorted now.