How many of you think you've actually had the covid19 virus?

by Tommy Monk Tue May 05, 2020 12:32 am

First topic message reminder :

Because... I'm pretty sure I've had it... my brother has had it... his Mrs has had it... my sister has had it... her fella has had it...

While none of us are on the list of being "confirmed cases" of having it...

Plus... I know dozens of other people who have said they're pretty sure that they have had it too... Having reported verifiable symptoms... Although none of these are listed on the official "confirmed cases" tally either...

And... All of these people that I know, who say they think they've had it, also say they each know dozens of others of people who say they have each had it too...

Isn't it likely that this virus has already done the rounds throughout the UK population... And most of us have already had it anyway...?

So no need for most of us to be hiding away from being infected by a virus that most of us have already had anyway...!?

by Tommy Monk Thu May 14, 2020 6:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

I do understand quill...

I posted already about why it was thought that people who had recovered from covid19 could be reinfected soon after... And why this was found to be wrong...

The evidence so far shows that reinfection isn't happening...

Having the virus and then having the body's immune system develop antibodies to fight it off, will establish a high level of immunity... in the same way as a vaccine works in triggering an immune response of forcing the body to create antibodies and thus creating a high level of immunity...

We know from other Corona viruses that the bodys immune response creates antibodies and renders immunity for varying lengths of time...

The only questions are... How long?... And how fast is the virus mutating and by how much is it changing, for the virus to be significantly different enough that it is seen by the immune system as being a new virus where existing antibodies aren't able to recognise...

by Original Quill Thu May 14, 2020 6:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The only questions are... How long?... And how fast is the virus mutating and by how much is it changing, for the virus to be significantly different enough that it is seen by the immune system as being a new virus where existing antibodies aren't able to recognise...

There is no evidence because there is no testing. Without testing, we have no idea.

Even with testing, it could still take as much as 10-15 years to come up with a vaccine. There's no directive that you could give to the body to 'hurry up!'

by Original Quill Thu May 14, 2020 7:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:We know from other Corona viruses that the bodys immune response creates antibodies and renders immunity for varying lengths of time...

Every pathogen has its own unique behavior. There is no one size fits all. As I said, you can't assume covid-19 is like "other corona viruses."

Once again, science doesn't assume.

by Tommy Monk Thu May 14, 2020 7:05 pm

Having the virus and then having the body's immune system develop antibodies to fight it off, will establish a high level of immunity... in the same way as a vaccine works in triggering an immune response of forcing the body to create antibodies and thus creating a high level of immunity...

We know from other Corona viruses that the bodys immune response creates antibodies and renders immunity for varying lengths of time...

Do you know how vaccines work...!!!???

by Original Quill Thu May 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Having the virus and then having the body's immune system develop antibodies to fight it off, will establish a high level of immunity... in the same way as a vaccine works in triggering an immune response of forcing the body to create antibodies and thus creating a high level of immunity...

No so, unless proven. There have been pathogens that develop the means to stop the development of antibodies.

Tommy Monk wrote:We know from other Corona viruses that the bodys immune response creates antibodies and renders immunity for varying lengths of time...

And that's fine for them. But not for covid-19. It's a new pathogen, that needs to be scientifically studied on its own. Science means no assumptions.[/quote]

by Tommy Monk Thu May 14, 2020 7:24 pm

This virus is fought off by the overwhelming vast majority of people... This is done by immune response creating antibodies... These antibodies remain in the system for a very long time... Rendering a high level of immunity for a length of time that is yet to be established... But is thought to be at least many months... Maybe even many years...

We know this to be true... Backed up by the science...

by Original Quill Thu May 14, 2020 8:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:This virus is fought off by the overwhelming vast majority of people... This is done by immune response creating antibodies... These antibodies remain in the system for a very long time... Rendering a high level of immunity for a length of time that is yet to be established... But is thought to be at least many months... Maybe even many years...

We know this to be true... Backed up by the science...

We don't know that to be true in this case. Covid-19 is a brand new pathogen.

by Tommy Monk Thu May 14, 2020 8:23 pm

Give up quill... It is obvious that it is you who doesn't understand the science...

by Original Quill Thu May 14, 2020 11:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Give up quill... It is obvious that it is you who doesn't understand the science...

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

by nicko Fri May 15, 2020 6:26 am

Never heard of that saying Quill, a much better one is SNAFU, situation normal, all fucked up !

by Maddog Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 am

nicko wrote: Never heard of that saying Quill, a much better one is SNAFU, situation normal, all fucked up !

It's from the movies.

Imagine that. Cool

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 7:31 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Give up quill... It is obvious that it is you who doesn't understand the science...

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

But it's alright when you try saying that I don't understand science...!?

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 12:29 pm

News reportimg a university study into covid and they reckon that maybe 20 million here in UK have already had it...

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 3:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

But it's alright when you try saying that I don't understand science...!?

That is because truth has it's own being, tom. Truth is true, whether you believe it or not.

You have a metaphysical understanding of science. Your understanding is riddled with assumptions and leaps of faith that have no basis in fact. You assume that all pathogens eventually develop or provoke an adaptive immunity in the body, when we know that is not true.

If that were true, there would be no HIV. "HIV" stands for human immunodeficiency virus, a retrovirus which causes AIDS. The "I" stands for "immunodeficiency", which means--if you break the word down--that it causes the adaptive immunity system to be "deficient", or to be non-existant. Therefore HIV is a virus that defies your claim that all pathogens develop or provoke an adaptive immunity in the body.

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 4:03 pm

You say:

Tommy Monk wrote:We know from other Corona viruses that the bodys immune response creates antibodies and renders immunity for varying lengths of time...

That is your factual basis that that covid-19 will develop or provoke an adaptive immunity. But the issue isn't "other Corona viruses". It is this virus. You can't make the assumption that the two are the same. Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Quill you idiot... We are not talking about HIV... we are talking about covid19... WHICH DOES CREATE AN IMMUNE RESPONSE!!!

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 4:37 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill you idiot... We are not talking about HIV... we are talking about covid19... WHICH DOES CREATE AN IMMUNE RESPONSE!!!

You don't understand the tools of logic. You have compared covid-19 with other forms of the corona viruses, which inescapably assumes that any/all viruses share the same characteristics (all pathogens provoke an immunological response).

I raise HIV as one important exception to the rule. Ergo: the rule is not a rule at all, and one cannot rely "other corona viruses" as a standard. Each virus must be explored on its own.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 4:52 pm

Twisting again quill...

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 5:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Twisting again quill...

Not true. Can you elaborate, toms?

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 6:55 pm

Straw man...

Either stick to the points that I HAVE made... instead of trying to construct your arguments around things that you are making up and pretending that I've said... Or I will just stop bothering to reply to you at all...

It's quite simple really...!

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 7:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Straw man...

Either stick to the points that I HAVE made... instead of trying to construct your arguments around things that you are making up and pretending that I've said... Or I will just stop bothering to reply to you at all...

It's quite simple really...!

Oh, I see. Only the points that [you] HAVE made. You want me to write what you want, not what I want. Any differences will be because a poster didn't "stick to your [tommy's] points." Never mind that someone might bring up something new, or introduced a different framework...you want everyone to agree with you, or you "will just stop bothering to reply" at all.

How many of you think you've actually had the covid19 virus? - Page 3 Cf1a057044361baf06688f9db5704cf5

How many of you think you've actually had the covid19 virus? - Page 3 Cf1a057044361baf06688f9db5704cf5

You want to suppress all dialogue and debate. That's a difficult thing to do on a site that prides itself on being a debating site. But I understand, positive views on censorship are usually consistent with an authoritarian attitude in the first place. The authoritarian dislikes any disagreement.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 pm

No... You're not only just twisting again... But you are actually admitting that you have been doing exactly what I said you were doing... Throwing up complete red herrings in response to your own made up misrepresentations of what I've actually said, while not only trying to attribute me with being responsible for saying all of your made up nonsense, but then also trying to say that it is me who doesn't know what I'm talking about because I've "said" all the nonsense that you made up and claimed I had said...!!!

by Original Quill Fri May 15, 2020 8:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... You're not only just twisting again... But you are actually admitting that you have been doing exactly what I said you were doing... Throwing up complete red herrings in response to your own made up misrepresentations of what I've actually said, while not only trying to attribute me with being responsible for saying all of your made up nonsense, but then also trying to say that it is me who doesn't know what I'm talking about because I've "said" all the nonsense that you made up and claimed I had said...!!!

You are not making any sense. A 'red herring' is something you drag across the path of the foxhounds to throw them off. Metaphorically, what is the 'red herring' that you accuse me of using?

Let me help you by centering the issue: what is useful about other corona viruses in the study of covid-19? Or do you deny saying that, now?

by 'Wolfie Sat May 16, 2020 11:39 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Give up quill... It is obvious that it is you who doesn't understand the science...

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

Tommy Monk is a clueless fuckwit...

We know that from his endless anti-climate, anti-evolution, Fascism is 'left-wing'/"Hitler was a socialist" rants..

Tommy claims "science" -- but as always, consistently fails to provide even one iota of actual evidence to supporr his bullshittery.

by nicko Sat May 16, 2020 12:43 pm

Your off again Wolfie Mad

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 4:10 pm

'Wolfie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

Tommy Monk is a clueless fuckwit...

We know that from his endless anti-climate, anti-evolution, Fascism is 'left-wing'/"Hitler was a socialist" rants..

Tommy claims "science" -- but as always, consistently fails to provide even one iota of actual evidence to supporr his bullshittery.

He seems to have, somewhere in all his arguments, an undying faith in some metaphysical premise. During the LBG debate, he was arguing that homosexuality was against nature's purpose--as if nature were some person with a written plan. Here he links two microbes as having the same characteristics, with no evidence whatsoever.

Like all religious freeks, he is unshakable when it comes to his metaphysical assumptions. His faith in them is such that he doesn't even recognize what is being said. Like, to question them is heresy. Shocked

by Tommy Monk Sat May 16, 2020 7:49 pm

'Wolfie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers." --Socrates

So you think science should be based upon assumption?

There is an old saying in the Army: Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups! That is the reason why science relies solely on empiricism, and does not assume that this pathogen behaves like that pathogen.

Tommy Monk is a clueless fuckwit...

We know that from his endless anti-climate, anti-evolution, Fascism is 'left-wing'/"Hitler was a socialist" rants..

Tommy claims "science" -- but as always, consistently fails to provide even one iota of actual evidence to supporr his bullshittery.

I always provide evidence for claims that I make here!!!

And I have previously asked you to provide evidence that proves my claims and evidence wrong... and you ran away without providing anything at all...!!!

All mouth and no trousers!!!

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 8:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I always provide evidence for claims that I make here!!!

No you don't. You make assumptions, and then refuse sub silentio to substantiate them.

But I understand your failure to recognize this. Your assumptions are tacit, and taken for granted.

by Tommy Monk Sat May 16, 2020 8:19 pm

I don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact...

If I offer my own personal opinion on things then I am clear that it is my opinion...

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 8:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact...

If I offer my own personal opinion on things then I am clear that it is my opinion...

Then why did you bring up other corona viruses? The issue is not about opinions, but about your claimed facts.

You assume that there is a similitude between the covid-19 virus and other corona viruses, and yet offer no proof. If you can't prove something, you can't claim it.

by Tommy Monk Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 pm

I have never said that this covid19 corona virus is the same as other corona viruses... or that any other corona viruses are the same...

Only that this covid19 virus is a corona virus... and that it provokes an immune response... as do other corona viruses... resulting in the production of antibodies that fight off the virus...

And that it is known that the antibody response creates a level of immunity in other corona viruses for a varied length of time... and this is so far what is being seen to be happening in the same sense with this covid19 corona virus...

This is what the scientists are saying... And it is scientists that I've heard who are looking at these corona viruses in comparative ways... Not something that I've just pulled out of my arse for the fun of it...

But if you had been properly following and understanding the science on all this... Then you would know this to be true and wouldn't be asking stupid questions...!

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 11:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Only that this covid19 virus is a corona virus... and that it provokes an immune response... as do other corona viruses... resulting in the production of antibodies that fight off the virus...

Proof?

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 11:28 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And that it is known that the antibody response creates a level of immunity in other corona viruses for a varied length of time... and this is so far what is being seen to be happening in the same sense with this covid19 corona virus...

Proof?

by Original Quill Sat May 16, 2020 11:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:This is what the scientists are saying... And it is scientists that I've heard who are looking at these corona viruses in comparative ways... Not something that I've just pulled out of my arse for the fun of it...

Do you have a citation that the above two claims "are what the scientists are saying". No second-authorities.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 17, 2020 2:27 am

Firstly... You show me where I have ever said that covid19 is the same as all viruses... And specifically HIV...?

Which you accused me of doing, a few posts back on this thread...?

by Original Quill Sun May 17, 2020 3:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Firstly... You show me where I have ever said that covid19 is the same as all viruses... And specifically HIV...?

Which you accused me of doing, a few posts back on this thread...?

Well, I don't want to accuse you of anything, tommy. Especially when you have just admitted my argument.

We'll just leave it at this: it is not established that covid-19 will elicit an immunological response.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 17, 2020 5:13 pm

You are totally wrong... The fact that there are tests for antibodies which are created as an immune response proves you don't have a clue what you're talking about...!

Also the plasma of blood from recovered cases is being used to treat other patients... Because this plasma is full of the antibodies that were created by the recovered doner case as an immune response, and these antibodies fought off the virus...

And... Why do you think the scientists are creating a vaccine for this virus...!?

Do you know how vaccines work...!!!???

They work by the injection of a tiny part of the virus after rendering it uninfectious... But still looks like the virus to the body... Which then triggers the immune response to in turn force the body to create antibodies for the virus... Thus creating a level of immunity from any future infections for a period of time...!

You're best of sticking at being a pretend lawyer quill... Science is obviously beyond you...

by Original Quill Sun May 17, 2020 5:42 pm

You need to devote yourself less to hurling insults, and more to seeing the logic. You admit that the covid-19 is not the same as other viruses, but skip to "antibodies which are created as an immune response".

What immune response, if covid-19 is unlike other viruses? Covid-19 has yet to be studied, and there is nothing else to compare it to.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 17, 2020 6:03 pm

Covid19 is a corona virus, and it triggers an immune response which results in the body creating antibodies to fight the virus off.

It is similar in ways that other Corona viruses are... And is of the same type of virus... The other Corona viruses also trigger an immune response... And antibodies are created which also fight off these other Corona viruses and remain in the body for some time giving a level of immunity...

by Tommy Monk Sun May 17, 2020 6:10 pm

Quill... It is obvious you don't understand the science... Otherwise you would not be failing to understand what I've been saying...

by Original Quill Mon May 18, 2020 3:53 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... It is obvious you don't understand the science... Otherwise you would not be failing to understand what I've been saying...

You are not saying anything. Your points all depend on your tommy-leap into some faith-based argument, better left to the Vicar. Unless you can empirically prove something, it is better left unsaid.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 18, 2020 5:20 pm

https://www.webmd.com/lung/antibody-testing-covid-19

Proof that covid19 provokes an immune response and the creation of antibodies...

Now... What else would you like proof of...???

lol!

by Original Quill Mon May 18, 2020 7:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:https://www.webmd.com/lung/antibody-testing-covid-19

Proof that covid19 provokes an immune response and the creation of antibodies...

Now... What else would you like proof of...???

Yes tommy, and why is this news on the front page of every newspaper in the world? It is because yesterday it did not exist. Just as I told you.

It is good news, as it means that covid-19 is amenable to conventional defenses. It will still take a year-and-a-half to concoct it, test it, and distribute it on a fast-track basis. But it is progress.

Now you see what deregulation and the destruction of the 'deep state' has gotten us into? This probably would have been discovered in due course 2-years ago, had not Trump waged a war on Obama's research on pandemics. After all, they were in the course of investigating all forms of SARS, and aggressively seeking knowledge of what could develop.

A lot of lives could have been saved if the Pandemic Research Team had not been demolished. But conservatives are always looking backwards, and this is the result. As every lorry driver knows, you've got to keep eyes on the road ahead.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 18, 2020 7:45 pm

This news is not new news...

It has been known for quite some time... And you would know this if you understood the science better...

by Original Quill Mon May 18, 2020 8:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:This news is not new news...

It has been known for quite some time... And you would know this if you understood the science better...

Oh...and you just discovered it's name? Why is it the first time you have spoken of an extant vaccine. It's called the Moderna vaccine. Here is this mornings announcement:

Reuters wrote:
HEALTH NEWS MAY 18, 2020
5:02 AM / UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO

(Reuters) - Early data from Moderna Inc’s COVID-19 vaccine, the first to be tested in the United States, showed that it produced protective antibodies in a small group of healthy volunteers, the company said on Monday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-idUSKBN22U1KQ

This is very good news. Please cite where you have heard of it before. Reuters thinks it is news to the world.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 18, 2020 9:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:This news is not new news...

It has been known for quite some time... And you would know this if you understood the science better...

Oh...and you just discovered it's name? Why is it the first time you have spoken of an extant vaccine. It's called the Moderna vaccine. Here is this mornings announcement:

Reuters wrote:
HEALTH NEWS MAY 18, 2020
5:02 AM / UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO

(Reuters) - Early data from Moderna Inc’s COVID-19 vaccine, the first to be tested in the United States, showed that it produced protective antibodies in a small group of healthy volunteers, the company said on Monday.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-idUSKBN22U1KQ

This is very good news. Please cite where you have heard of it before. Reuters thinks it is news to the world.

Quill... You are again proving that you haven't got a clue about what I'm talking about... as you clearly don't have a clue about science...!!!

My above post about proof was specifically about...

a) Being infected by the actual covid19 virus triggers an immune response in the body.

b) This immune response results in the body producing antibodies to fight off the covid19 viral infection.

c) These antibodies remain present in the body for a substantial length of time after the covid19 virus has been eliminated in the body. (The exact length of time is not known for sure, and won't be known for sure until we actually see how long antibodies last in the systems of known and recovered covid19 cases, by continued observations of them over the months/years ahead... although it is widely thought that these antibodies will be prevalent for somewhere between at least a year to a few years... Likely that it could well be 5 years or even more)

d) The presence of these antibodies in recovered covid19 cases gives a very high level of immunity to reinfection by the same covid19 virus.

e) The fact that there are tests for antibodies in people to detect if the person has had a previous infection of this covid19 virus, and the fact that these antibody tests have been available in countries round the world for the last 2/3 months or so... Prove that not only does this virus provoke an immune response, and also that antibodies are created by the body to fight it off... but also that this has been known about for quite some time too...!!!

I wasn't posting about any news about any vaccine being reported as being any breakthrough... As you seem to be going on about in your above post...

My only mention of potential vaccines being worked on was to try to explain to you that for a vaccine to be a possibly viable option, would require the basic fact that the actual virus itself would cause an immune response in those infected with it!!!

Which backs up what I've been saying all along!!!

Give it up quill... you clearly don't understand science... and you are making yourself look more silly the more you keep on going with your nonsense here...!

lol!

by Original Quill Mon May 18, 2020 11:45 pm

You have no cite? You have no proof. My point is made.

ta...

by Tommy Monk Tue May 19, 2020 12:28 am

I've given the proof that you asked for to back up the things THAT I DID SAY...

I don't know why you are going on about some moderna vaccine in your reuters link...???

It's not something that I've posted about on this thread... So I am bemused as to why you are asking me about it...???

by Tommy Monk Tue May 19, 2020 1:09 am

Quill... This is what you said...

"...We'll just leave it at this: it is not established that covid-19 will elicit an immunological response..."

by Original Quill Tue May 19, 2020 2:35 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... This is what you said...

"...We'll just leave it at this: it is not established that covid-19 will elicit an immunological response..."

Uh-oh. The US aircraft supercarrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, which has a ship's company of about 3, 200, has shown repeat positives for the coronavirus. Sailors, who once tested positive and recovered, are testing positive again. How could they be infected again...unless, the antibodies didn't work?

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/theodore-roosevelt-sailors-positive-coronavirus-retest-185838315.html

Seems the adaptive immune system isn't working with convid-19. Disappointing.

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