Five year old dies after Dr refused to see her because she was 5 minutes late for her emergency appointment.

First topic message reminder :

I truly don't know how that Dr can come to terms with this.  

" A five-year-old girl with life-threatening asthma died after being turned away from an emergency doctor's appointment because she was late, an inquest heard.
Ellie-May Clark arrived at The Grange Clinic in Newport, south Wales, five minutes after her emergency appointment at 5pm on January 25 in 2015, her mother said.
She was booked in to see Doctor Joanne Rowe, a partner in the surgery and its lead for child safeguarding, as she was wheezing and unable to walk.
Ellie-May and her mother, Shanice Clark, waited in line to see receptionist Ann Jones and reached the front of the queue between 5.10 and 5.18pm.
Dr Rowe had a "10-minute rule", where she would not see patients who arrived more than 10 minutes after their appointments, and refused to see Ellie-May as she was late, an inquest heard."




Read the full story.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/26/five-year-old-girl-died-gp-turned-away-five-minutes-late-appointment/

Didge wrote:

gelico wrote:


he does

HT wrote this,,,


''You know what, Didge.   When you have kids, and those kids have a condition that has been life threatening in the past, you don't give a shit about clogging up A and Fucking E.    You don't have to be wheezing to die of asthma either.    The child couldn't eat, speak or walk and was not responding to her meds.  That in itself should have been the red flag.''


clearly the 'you' in her post was meant in general terms as in 'one' but didge thought she was referring to him personally

over

WTF?

That was not meant in general terms

Wow yet again

Is anyone else reading this the same way Gelico is reading?

Oh give it up, Didge. Here we all are again in a thread being whipped up by your 'outrage' and 'umbrage'.

Okay just clear this up real quick, did you mean when didge has kids or when one has kids?

stamping your trotters

FFS! HT

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


Then why is it so many people cannot respond to my points?

Here you go Eddie

When I have kids?

Wow

Like i say, you are going off this based on hindsight, not actually studying what actually went on.

I have asked you simple questions, being as I do suffer with severe asthma.

Why is it over 5 days, she was not even provided steroids?

The child was able to speak if you read the article, she asked and was upset why the doctor would not see here.

Read the article.

I know what its like to not be able to speak in a full sentence.

The facts are this

She had been wheezy on and off for 5 days

She had seen two seperate doctors

Neither gave her steroids, as you know its normally a 5 to 7 day course

Neither had her admitted to hospital

Clearly she was not struggling to breath during this, until the fifth evening, which nobody could have predicted.

At no point has anyone said she should have taken her to hospital on the previous 4 days, she had been wheezy on and off and do you know why? It rubbishes everything you have been saying.

You are simple are going off the fact she did later die

All I see is the totalitarian thought police on parade

Yes, when you have kids.   What is the issue with that statement?  

If none of those doctors gave her steroids like Prednisolone, could there have been a reason?    Perhaps she'd already been on a course of them and no more could be given.  They do have side effects.    Perhaps the mother had failed to give the child regular doses of her pink inhaler?   Perhaps there was a trigger substance at the home?   Perhaps the poor mite was just so severe with her lung problems she could have been a time bomb.   So many things could have contributed.      It's not even sure she'd have survived if she'd gotten to hospital but it was the only logical thing left to do.

It's no good stamping your trotters because nobody is agreeing with you on all your 'points'.  

I do have kids

It has no relevance

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

zzzzzzzzzz

eddie wrote:Okay just clear this up real quick, did you mean when didge has kids or when one has kids?

When one has kids. Why would any parent be worried about clogging up A and E when their kid is in dire straits?

HoratioTarr wrote:zzzzzzzzzz

There you go.

I post points for you to consider, you mock that

No problem

Happy for others to respond to them

Thanks for your input

gelico wrote:stamping your trotters

FFS! HT

You know I'm right

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:zzzzzzzzzz

There you go.

I post points for you to consider, you mock that

No problem

Happy for others to respond to them

Thanks for your input

zzzzzzzzzzzz

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Yes, when you have kids.   What is the issue with that statement?  

If none of those doctors gave her steroids like Prednisolone, could there have been a reason?    Perhaps she'd already been on a course of them and no more could be given.  They do have side effects.    Perhaps the mother had failed to give the child regular doses of her pink inhaler?   Perhaps there was a trigger substance at the home?   Perhaps the poor mite was just so severe with her lung problems she could have been a time bomb.   So many things could have contributed.      It's not even sure she'd have survived if she'd gotten to hospital but it was the only logical thing left to do.

It's no good stamping your trotters because nobody is agreeing with you on all your 'points'.  

I do have kids

It has no relevance

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

yes you do make good points

no one is judging her as such, and yes hindsight is a wonderful thing

i bet the mother wished she had done so now

i assume the doctor also wishes she had also done things differently

ok now?

HoratioTarr wrote:

eddie wrote:Okay just clear this up real quick, did you mean when didge has kids or when one has kids?

When one has kids.    Why would any parent be worried about clogging up A and E when their kid is in dire straits?

So again, why would she need to go to A&E?

Take your time on this or do you need to phone a friend?

I would not recomend Gelico mind.

Here you go again

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:


I do have kids

It has no relevance

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

yes you do make good points

no one is judging her as such, and yes hindsight is a wonderful thing

i bet the mother wished she had done so now

i assume the doctor also wishes she had also done things differently

ok now?

When you have your integrety questioned over your children existing as a means to divert the debate

Then give me a call Gelico

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

When one has kids.    Why would any parent be worried about clogging up A and E when their kid is in dire straits?

So again, why would she need to go to A&E?

Take your time on this or do you need to phone a friend?

I would not recomend Gelico mind.

Here you go again

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

How many times are you going to keep putting up the same points?

Isn't it obvious why she should have taken her to A and E? The child couldn't eat, walk or talk due to the severity of her asthma. The doctor turned her away.

It's pointless posting the same things over and over again and hoping I'll give you a different answer.

The past four days of not being taken to A and E, or sorted out by the doctor culminating in the severe attack that killed her, should have be the answer you're looking for. Ultimately, the parent had the final responsibility to take her to A and E after the doctor cocked up or leave her hoping she'd just get better. I know what I'd have done.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


So again, why would she need to go to A&E?

Take your time on this or do you need to phone a friend?

I would not recomend Gelico mind.

Here you go again

Are you saying people can only care and look out for people as parents?

Seriously?

It was piss poor misdirection.

So now we are into the world of speculation.

We know that the doctors never prescrived her steroids. They would again if they believed her wheezing was not getting better. I know, because I spent the years 6-8 as a child being in and out of hospital. They do have side effects and why I grew up fighting all the time on the terraces. But they would not stop providing them based on it not helping her, when we know steroids do help.

Is nobody agreeing with me?

I think you are wrong on that. Read back

The facts are this, you have not been able to counter many of my points. We had a decent discussion earlier and now you think I am stamping some imaginary trotters. How about its actually you jumping to many wrong conclusions here. Just as we have seen with Tommy. Claiming a mother with an 8 week old baby and who had taken her daughter with asthma to the GP 3 times, to him cared more about facebook and TV.

The reality is this, at no point has any of you argued that she should have gone to A&E at any point over the previous 4 days she had on and off asthma. At no point have you agued that she should go to A&E everytime she was wheezy. Which as seen she had been attending A&E every  four months or so. The last occasion actually nearly a year ago. Look at the dates.

It shows because the child sadly died, you are going off hindsight and not reality, of this mother dealing with this everyday. The worst part is how people are judging her, when its clear her daughter has been admitted to hospital many times before. Its like people are claiming the mother has had some sudden amnesia and only on this fifth day and does not know what she needs to do with her wheezing.

She called the GP. As her child had been better enough to go to school. She had previously been off school. She then had asthma again being wheezy. When she picked her up from school. So explain to me, being this had been ongoing over 5 days, why would she would need to go to A&E now?

My personal opinion, believe the actual trigger was not being seen by the GP. You know as well as I, that stress can worsen asthma

How many times are you going to keep putting up the same points?    

Isn't it obvious why she should have taken her to A and E?   The child couldn't eat, walk or talk due to the severity of her asthma.   The doctor turned her away.    

It's pointless posting the same things over and over again and hoping I'll give you a different answer.  

The past four days of not being taken to A and E, or sorted out by the doctor culminating in the severe attack that killed her, should have be the answer you're looking for.    Ultimately, the parent had the final responsibility to take her to A and E after the doctor cocked up or leave her hoping she'd just get better.    I know what I'd have done.  

How many times are you going to avoid the facts, points and questions?

Its why I will continually post them and why you looked really sad, by putting loads of zz, as not interested and yet now you are interested. Seems to me, you are now again interested where before you were not, so what am I to think on that?

You see this is how people fall foul to what the papers claim
At no point did the mother claim the child could not walk because of her breathing.
She did say, she was upset and that is why she did carry her.
The Telegraph claimed she could not walk

Do you see how words can lead people to conclusions
Have you ever met a child able to walk very upset?
I mean, going off being a parent myself, that its very hard, that they will want to actually walk.
Do you see how you have read into something and come to a completely different conclusion?
Does now every child carried upset suffer with asthma?

I am posting many points for you to consider, you though in your arrogance and mockery clearly did not consider them. Hence why you turned the debate onto my family and trying to get at me

You have failed to achieve your objectives

Sorry

Now you are really being subjective in your last comments
So the parents must in your reasoning take the child to A&E on every bout of asthma?
I mean over the last four days, of which two days were not seen by a GP, should she had gone to A&E?

You see, you are just making things up as you go along, to make your judgemental view point fit
It does not make any sense, when you actually consider this mother has taken her daughter to hospital before.

The final responsibility is with the doctor and I know Eddie will like this. If 3 previous GP's do not advise the hospital or prescribe steroids. Why then would the mother then think she needs to take her daughter to the hospital? Just because she has been denied the latest appointment? On the previous two appointments she was not advised to do this or given steroids. What you are actually suggesting is that this mother disconsider every previous advice she has been given on this. That she should not listen to medical advice. What you are claiming is that 3 GP's she has seen over 3 years. Should always be treated with complete skeptism on treating asthma.

Its why you are not a lawyer and why people like you will never be. You do not think rationally and think things through. As seen when i reason how your views are poor and not backed by reason, you look to mock. When that does not work you invent further bullshit

I think its pretty obvious by now that people have different opinions.
Thats the interesting thing about forums, we can all read the same news report, but we dont all come to the same conclusion re who should have done what or why.

I know the mother will never forgive herself, she  will always wish she had taken the girl to A&E, insisted the girl be seen at the surgery, phoned 999 before she did, all that and more.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

As for the Dr, no matter what the inquest conclusion is, she has to live with the knowledge that she failed miserably in her duty, and that girl may still be alive if she had seen her .

The conclusion of the inquest is


"The GP who turned away Ellie-May Clark, 5, who later died after an asthma attack, has been allowed to continue to practice after only receiving a slap on the wrist"
Dr Rowes warning will be publicly available on the medical register until 2021"

I cant post links on tablet, but the report also says Dr Rowe, who was suspended on full pay for 6 months  whilst the investigation was taking place, is now working at another GP surgery in Cardiff.

She may still be practicing, but her reputation as a caring Dr is forever tarnished. As for the title she held as 'Lead for child safeguarding'....words fail.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5715709/gp-turned-away-girl-dying-asthma-attack-warning-allowed-back/

A confidential report into the child’s death, seen by the paper, paints a damning portrait of the GP.

The investigation, compiled by Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, which is responsible for the Grange Clinic, paints a portrait of Dr Rowe as an aloof and unapproachable GP capable of treating patients and colleagues alike with disdain.

It states: “Dr D [as Dr Rowe is referred to in the paperwork] refused to see EM [Ellie-May], knowing that she was a child, because she was brought in late for an emergency appointment and she did not make any clinical assessment of EM either directly or indirectly before refusing to see her.”
The way in which Dr Rowe reportedly turned Ellie-May away — according to receptionist Ann Jones with a brusque, “No, I’m not seeing her. She’s late”. — seems even more questionable given Dr Rowe’s schedule that day.

Nobody is disputing the fact that the Dr could easily have seen the child... and that she probably should have done so...


But she didn't... and the mother didn't seek medical attention elsewhere... which she should have done...!

Syl wrote:She may still be practicing, but her reputation as a caring Dr is forever tarnished. As for the title she held as  'Lead for child safeguarding'....words fail.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5715709/gp-turned-away-girl-dying-asthma-attack-warning-allowed-back/

A confidential report into the child’s death, seen by the paper, paints a damning portrait of the GP.

The investigation, compiled by Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, which is responsible for the Grange Clinic, paints a portrait of Dr Rowe as an aloof and unapproachable GP capable of treating patients and colleagues alike with disdain.

It states: “Dr D [as Dr Rowe is referred to in the paperwork] refused to see EM [Ellie-May], knowing that she was a child, because she was brought in late for an emergency appointment and she did not make any clinical assessment of EM either directly or indirectly before refusing to see her.”
The way in which Dr Rowe reportedly turned Ellie-May away — according to receptionist Ann Jones with a brusque, “No, I’m not seeing her. She’s late”. — seems even more questionable given Dr Rowe’s schedule that day.

She should be struck off

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:She may still be practicing, but her reputation as a caring Dr is forever tarnished. As for the title she held as  'Lead for child safeguarding'....words fail.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5715709/gp-turned-away-girl-dying-asthma-attack-warning-allowed-back/

A confidential report into the child’s death, seen by the paper, paints a damning portrait of the GP.

The investigation, compiled by Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, which is responsible for the Grange Clinic, paints a portrait of Dr Rowe as an aloof and unapproachable GP capable of treating patients and colleagues alike with disdain.

It states: “Dr D [as Dr Rowe is referred to in the paperwork] refused to see EM [Ellie-May], knowing that she was a child, because she was brought in late for an emergency appointment and she did not make any clinical assessment of EM either directly or indirectly before refusing to see her.”
The way in which Dr Rowe reportedly turned Ellie-May away — according to receptionist Ann Jones with a brusque, “No, I’m not seeing her. She’s late”. — seems even more questionable given Dr Rowe’s schedule that day.

She should be struck off

Given the circumstances and her failure towards the ill child, plus the fact she obviously lied when she said she was tending to another patient...I agree 100%.

Didge has previously posted about it being wrong to blame the mother for failing to seek medical attention elsewhere, because that was somehow looking at things with 'hindsight' and only because the child died...


But isn't it the case that Dr's refuse to see people who are late for appointments all the time... and the Dr is only facing blame because of the same 'hindsight', and only getting blame because the child later died...?


Should every Dr, who has ever refused to see someone who turned up late, be struck off...?


Or only if the person died 5 hours later...?


Or isn't it the case that if someone is late and doesn't get seen... then it is up to them to seek medical attention elsewhere if needed... and they are perfectly able to do so at A&E or other places...!?


It was the mothers decision not to do this!!!

I think Tommy needs to read the inquest verdict again

Tommy Monk wrote:Didge has previously posted about it being wrong to blame the mother for failing to seek medical attention elsewhere, because that was somehow looking at things with 'hindsight' and only because the child died...


But isn't it the case that Dr's refuse to see people who are late for appointments all the time... and the Dr is only facing blame because of the same 'hindsight', and only getting blame because the child later died...?


Should every Dr, who has ever refused to see someone who turned up late, be struck off...?


Or only if the person died 5 hours later...?


Or isn't it the case that if someone is late and doesn't get seen... then it is up to them to seek medical attention elsewhere if needed... and they are perfectly able to do so at A&E or other places...!?


It was the mothers decision not to do this!!!

But the Dr was the only GP who stuck rigidly to the 10 minute rule Tommy, and the policy in that surgery was never to turn away children or old people if they had an emergency appointment.

We can all say what we would have done if we had been that childs mother, because it is easy to be wise after the event.

The Dr however was paid to not make mistakes, yet she made several that day, then she lied, her reputation is in ruins, and frankly, she deserves it to be.

Rather late to this but here's my 2 cents...

The Doctor should have seen the girl, because she could have.

The parent should absolutely have sought help elsewhere when it was clear the doctor wouldn't see her child.

However, why be late in the first place? I expect the ten minute rule exists for a reason- like when it is busy. And it can be inconvenient when people come let, throwing schedules out of sync. And they weren't 5 mins late, they were over 10 mins late. The were 5 mins past the leeway the doctor already allowed.

The doctor should have seen the girl, obviously, she had time. But she may not have on a different occasion. So while the doctor is cold, and partly to blame, more lies with the parent imo.

Eilzel wrote:Rather late to this but here's my 2 cents...

The Doctor should have seen the girl, because she could have.

The parent should absolutely have sought help elsewhere when it was clear the doctor wouldn't see her child.

However, why be late in the first place? I expect the ten minute rule exists for a reason- like when it is busy. And it can be inconvenient when people come let, throwing schedules out of sync. And they weren't 5 mins late, they were over 10 mins late. The were 5 mins past the leeway the doctor already allowed.

The doctor should have seen the girl, obviously, she had time. But she may not have on a different occasion. So while the doctor is cold, and partly to blame, more lies with the parent imo.

They were 5 minutes late and were in a que waiting to see the receptionist.

There maybe many reasons that patients can end up delayed, through no fault of their own, so that is just plain ridiculous to lay claim and place empathasis on the parent. The surgery has a rule not to turn away children and parents with emergency appointments.

Again read back on the points I have already made in regards to this child having already on and off asthma for 5 days and where she had already seen to GP's previously in those days, because i cannot be arsed to continually repeat myself, when others cannot be bothered to read through the thread

Your 'points' are suplerfluous...


And you have spammed this thread enough already, so stop boring everyone with your waffle...!


You are not the king of opinion here... just king of the ring sting!

Tommy Monk wrote:Your 'points' are suplerfluous...


And you have spammed this thread enough already, so stop boring everyone with your waffle...!


You are not the king of opinion here... just king of the ring sting!

When it comes to reason against you

Its not even a contest, you are an idiot

Hence why you ran away from answering just about every point and reason I made

So either go back and tackle them or find that you will  be ignored on this thread until you do.
I am bored of you constantly evading everything on any thread that constantly makes your arguments weak.

Dont forget you were the one that made the outrageous and completely unfounded claims, the mother cared more for TV and facebook, than her children, one which was 8 weeks old. 

So there is great reasons why she could have been late, one the demands is of an 8 week old baby and if that was the reason and a surgery cannot understand that, then they are not fit to practice

Its why Eilzel was downright lazy, clearly never reading the article and assumes, nobody has valid reasons they could be late. The fact the doctor had no other appointments proved he was too lazy to even read the through the debate.

Bore off ring sting...

Tommy Monk wrote:Bore off ring sting...

He keeps on spouting the same boring old drivel post after post. Kills it dead. I'm surprised you're still arguing with him.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Bore off ring sting...

He keeps on spouting the same boring old drivel post after post.   Kills it dead.   I'm surprised you're still arguing with him.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Bore off ring sting...

He keeps on spouting the same boring old drivel post after post.   Kills it dead.   I'm surprised you're still arguing with him.

Ah the Superintendent of the thought police at her best

So I killed it dead, by you constantly debating eh?

Nothing worse than a sore loser contradicting herself, when she was taken to task over her poor views.

Like i said, I look at this more than anything with empathic intelligence. by also looking at the evidence.

You and others went off hindsight that the child sadly later died.

Not once did you place your arguments in the same context of the previous days, when she was wheezy also

The whole case against the GP is based on hindsight after the child died, you idiot...!!!


If the child hadn't have died, there would be no case!!!


But it's not the Drs fault the child died... 5 hours after missing appointment... it's the mothers fault for not getting medical attention elsewhere during that time!!!


You can't argue that the child was just a bit wheezy, and not really in a serious condition at all, therefore the mother was right not to seek medical attention elsewhere... but also try to argue that the childs condition was that serious that she died because she didn't get medical attention from the GP...!!!


Either childs condition wasn't serious, so mother isn't to blame for not taking her to hospital, and therefore the GP isn't to blame either... or the childs condition was serious, in which case, the mother should have had her up the hospital...!?


Which is it, ring sting...!?

Tommy just ignoring all my points yet again

So lets take apart Tommy's views

Asthma can turn into serious problem. It can escalate in minutes, but you cannot predict if it will.

Hence why a GP practice has to ensure a preventative plan is put in place.

The Coroner stated, the GP never did this, and failed to not even enter the letter sent on her condition.

The surgery failed to act.

Thus the mother cannot be at any fault, if there is no prevantative plan in place.

She did what she thinks is best based on her daughter had suffered this for 3 years. Again she knows how bad the breathing is, when she had been admitted to hospital.

Here though here child was wheezy on and off for 5 days. Of which in that time she had seen two other doctors. None of which prescribed a course of steroids. Remember the mother was under the impression this would always clear this up. Showing again no prevantive plan was put in place by the surgery. What people have done here, is read that she died and assummed the child earlier must have been struggling to breath, when she was wheezy. Where clearly the mother having picked her child up from school and found her wheezy again. After clearly her daughter being better in the morning and attending school, needed to see the doctor again. Being as this had gone on and off for 5 days.

I mean considering nobody argued she needs to go to hospital everytime she is wheezy, then the claim she needs to on this day she could not get an appointment. Has no bases. Its only made simple because she sadly later died. At no point did the two previous visits to see different doctors, have them admit the girl to hospital or even attend A&E to have a nebulizor. That was not even advised. So clearly by this, we have to consider if then 2 doctors did not consider her wheezying to be serious.

So why would the mother think she needed to attend A&E and only on that day, after 5 days of on and off wheezying?

Hence why Tommy needs to actually read what the inquiry found

Guardian wrote:Recording a narrative conclusion, the Gwent coroner, Wendy James, said: “It is not possible for me to determine with certainty whether an earlier intervention would have altered the outcome for Ellie, but nonetheless Ellie should have been seen by a GP that day and she was let down by the failures in the system.

“Ellie-May Clark died of natural causes where the opportunity to provide potentially life-saving treatment was missed.”

The coroner added: “Ellie’s care was disjointed. There was no one doctor or clinician allocated to oversee Ellie’s long-term management or care even though she suffered with a life-threatening condition.

She was dealt with by three doctors in the surgery in five days. Had she been seen by one doctor, things maybe been different for Ellie.

“It is unacceptable that patients should be refused to be seen at an emergency appointment without any clinical assessment of their condition or any advice given. Especially when that patient is a five-year old child with a history of severe acute asthma.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/26/ellie-may-clark-asthma-died-after-newport-clinic-doctor-turned-her-away-emergency-appointment-inquest-hears

Always good to check other sources.

Hence the mother did the right thing each time and the surgery and doctors let her down[/quote]

If you have a sick child with a potentially life threatening condition, one that has previously been hospitalised with that condition... and are not getting satisfactory results from your GPs... then you don't fuk about... you get your child up the hospital...!!!


Simple as that!!!

“Ellie-May Clark died of natural causes where the opportunity to provide potentially life-saving treatment was missed.”


Taking child to hospital would have provided potentially life saving treatment...


"...Especially when that patient is a five-year old child with a history of severe acute asthma.”



The mother knew how serious the condition was, so should have taken her to hospital!!!

So Tommy avoids every point and now thinks everytime anyone is unwell and cannot see the doctor, they need to go to the hospital.

Which is generally happenning and why waiting times are at critical.

If the surgery had entered the details onto its system, being also this GP was supposed to involved in child care also. This would never have happened. The fact that two different GP's failed to act in previous days. The fact the GP on the day had failed to even look at her history on their own system, is a failing.

I never get turned away from my GP. They know if there is not an appointent, I always have the GP call me back within an hour. When my wheezying is poor and my peak flow is below 50%. To then have me given a presciption of steroids.
Plus other measures like seeing the clinical asthma nurse during the year. They also have advised me what to do.

That is a prevantive plan

Now my points again

Tommy just ignoring all my points yet again

So lets take apart Tommy's views

Asthma can turn into serious problem. It can escalate in minutes, but you cannot predict if it will.

Hence why a GP practice has to ensure a preventative plan is put in place.

The Coroner stated, the GP never did this, and failed to not even enter the letter sent on her condition.

The surgery failed to act.

Thus the mother cannot be at any fault, if there is no prevantative plan in place.

She did what she thinks is best based on her daughter had suffered this for 3 years. Again she knows how bad the breathing is, when she had been admitted to hospital.

Here though here child was wheezy on and off for 5 days. Of which in that time she had seen two other doctors. None of which prescribed a course of steroids. Remember the mother was under the impression this would always clear this up. Showing again no prevantive plan was put in place by the surgery. What people have done here, is read that she died and assummed the child earlier must have been struggling to breath, when she was wheezy. Where clearly the mother having picked her child up from school and found her wheezy again. After clearly her daughter being better in the morning and attending school, needed to see the doctor again. Being as this had gone on and off for 5 days.

I mean considering nobody argued she needs to go to hospital everytime she is wheezy, then the claim she needs to on this day she could not get an appointment. Has no bases. Its only made simple because she sadly later died. At no point did the two previous visits to see different doctors, have them admit the girl to hospital or even attend A&E to have a nebulizor. That was not even advised. So clearly by this, we have to consider if then 2 doctors did not consider her wheezying to be serious.

So why would the mother think she needed to attend A&E and only on that day, after 5 days of on and off wheezying?

Hence why Tommy needs to actually read what the inquiry found

Didge... what is wrong with you...!!!???


If you have a sick child with a potentially life threatening condition, one that has previously been hospitalised with that condition... and are not getting satisfactory results from your GPs... then you don't fuk about... you get your child up the hospital...!!!


Forget the fukking GP for the moment... when your childs life is at risk... YOU GET THE CHILD TO THE FUKKING HOSPITAL!!!


And if that means someone there with a small cut has to wait a bit longer... then so be it!!!


If the mother had bothered to do that... then the child would most likely still be alive!!!


Stop wittering on about bloody preventive plans and bollocks!!!


I'll explain in simple terms for you as you are a real simple simpleton...


Everyone knows this...


Sick child + no joy from GP = HOSPITAL!!!

There is nothing wrong with me, there clearly is with you when you continually avoid my points.

Also it was a siezure that the child had late that night, that rendered her unconcious.

Nobody could have prediceted that would happen and happens very rarely in asthma patients

But prevantive measures in place would have prevented this

Now again Tommy, last chance to respond to, as you always avoid everything said.

That is not going to happen in this debate

So Tommy avoids every point and now thinks everytime anyone is unwell and cannot see the doctor, they need to go to the hospital.

Which is generally happenning and why waiting times are at critical.

If the surgery had entered the details onto its system, being also this GP was supposed to involved in child care also. This would never have happened. The fact that two different GP's failed to act in previous days. The fact the GP on the day had failed to even look at her history on their own system, is a failing.

I never get turned away from my GP. They know if there is not an appointent, I always have the GP call me back within an hour. When my wheezying is poor and my peak flow is below 50%. To then have me given a presciption of steroids.
Plus other measures like seeing the clinical asthma nurse during the year. They also have advised me what to do.

That is a prevantive plan

Now my points again

Tommy just ignoring all my points yet again

So lets take apart Tommy's views

Asthma can turn into serious problem. It can escalate in minutes, but you cannot predict if it will.

Hence why a GP practice has to ensure a preventative plan is put in place.

The Coroner stated, the GP never did this, and failed to not even enter the letter sent on her condition.

The surgery failed to act.

Thus the mother cannot be at any fault, if there is no prevantative plan in place.

She did what she thinks is best based on her daughter had suffered this for 3 years. Again she knows how bad the breathing is, when she had been admitted to hospital.

Here though here child was wheezy on and off for 5 days. Of which in that time she had seen two other doctors. None of which prescribed a course of steroids. Remember the mother was under the impression this would always clear this up. Showing again no prevantive plan was put in place by the surgery. What people have done here, is read that she died and assummed the child earlier must have been struggling to breath, when she was wheezy. Where clearly the mother having picked her child up from school and found her wheezy again. After clearly her daughter being better in the morning and attending school, needed to see the doctor again. Being as this had gone on and off for 5 days.

I mean considering nobody argued she needs to go to hospital everytime she is wheezy, then the claim she needs to on this day she could not get an appointment. Has no bases. Its only made simple because she sadly later died. At no point did the two previous visits to see different doctors, have them admit the girl to hospital or even attend A&E to have a nebulizor. That was not even advised. So clearly by this, we have to consider if then 2 doctors did not consider her wheezying to be serious.

So why would the mother think she needed to attend A&E and only on that day, after 5 days of on and off wheezying?

Hence why Tommy needs to actually read what the inquiry found

If I had been to the GPs three times for the same thing (especially for my child) there’s no way I’d have gone to them a fourth time. I mean, what part of going to the GP’s has been helping? Why keep going back?

Parents aren’t perfect and she should’ve taken her child to the hospital - she may even sadly I have died there, who knows? - but come on, you’d have just gone to the hospital.

Regarding the GP, she had no idea the girl was so bad as she was sitting in her office, so I don’t know how she’s to blame.
The only person who knew how bad the child was, was the mother.

You see the reason why Tommy's argument is so poor is that its based on hindsight. Its based on a view, everyone should predict based on hindsight and that everyone should think as he thinks based on hindsight.

So I will ask him a simple question.

Why did not two doctors, after seeing her, not have her admitted to hospital? Sent to hospital to have a nebulizor? Not even prescribe steroids?

Why then based on this, after 5 days of this, would then the mother think she would need to go to A&E that night, when she had an appointment again the next day to see the GP? What worsening plans did the GP's provide?

So you tell me?

Eddie... can you do something about the idiot keeping on spamming please...?

eddie wrote:If I had been to the GPs three times for the same thing (especially for my child) there’s no way I’d have gone to them a fourth time. I mean, what part of going to the GP’s has been helping? Why keep going back?

Parents aren’t perfect and she should’ve taken her child to the hospital - she may even sadly I have died there, who knows? - but come on, you’d have just gone to the hospital.

Regarding the GP, she had no idea the girl was so bad as she was sitting in her office, so I don’t know how she’s to blame.  
The only person who knew how bad the child was, was the mother.  

So you are expecting her to be you.

Even if she had gone to A&E, that would have only been a short term fix.

Again what is needed is a preventative plan. Which should have been in place, as the surgery had a letter, which was meant to be on the system, which this GP failed to do

The GP called out, that she was not seeing her because she was late

That is dumb and even more so because she failed to enter into the system after the letter given. Even more so the nature of the visit was with her wheezying. Thus the doctor is incompetant.

Thus if on the system, it would have flagged up the nature off her condition.

Clearly the surgery and GP's did not take her contion seriously, where a paediatrician did, hence the letter sent.

The mother may not even have been aware of what was in that letter either. The reality is she has to follow medical advise, which is meant to come by your doctors.

So to lay claim what you would do, is utterly irrelevant. You were not in her shoes and have no idea how much the mother actually knew. With children so young, they do not like to diagnose children so young with asthma.

So there are many things people are simple not looking at

Tommy Monk wrote:Eddie... can you do something about the idiot keeping on spamming please...?

Look, even more evidence Tommy wants to control the debate and get out of points he cannot answer

Its not spamming when you constantly avoid points which render your views moot

Tommy, I don’t need think debating a topic and writing a lot of posts on it is considered spamming.

Oh and the letter form the paediatrician was sent months previously.

She should of based off this letter have the surgery contact the mother to arrange an appointment for her daughter to put into place a prevantative plan.

It shows that if the surgery had not put the letter on their system, this doctor may have not even classed her daughter as an asthmatic. Its also very probable, that the mother was not aware just how life threatening her childs condition was. Again which would have been a failing from the Doctor. She had read the letter months previously. The fact she never put this on the system or called the child in for an appointment off this. Says to me, one of two things. Either she was lazy/negligent or she disagreed with the paediatrician.

Now I can only guess, but it would fit here that she disagreed. As it had been sent months before and no prevantive plan was in place. That then the other two GP's were not aware of the letter by the paediatrician. Where again doctors are reluctant to diagnose asthma in children. Though the other doctors here would be blameless, if they were unaware of the letter.

So there is many things here people are not considering.

eddie wrote:Tommy, I don’t need think debating a topic and writing a lot of posts on it is considered spamming.

No that is not spamming... but keeping on posting the same wall of waffle, is...!

Meanwhile, Ms Clark also spoke of her regret on the show and described her feelings when she was five minutes late to the clinic and said: 'I wish I took her to hospital.'  

She was asked what she would have done in hindsight and said: 'I would have put my foot down in the surgery and said 'I'm not leaving until the doctor sees me'.

'And if that didn't worked I would have taken her to the hospital, which I wish I had done.'

She added: 'I was five minutes late. I could not get there any sooner. I asked to see the doctor and she said that because we were late she was not able to see us.

'I have never heard of it before and I have since heard that that was the first time they have turned away an emergency appointment which is very bizarre to be honest.'

Asked about what it felt like to be turned away after she was given the appointment just 30 minutes earlier, she said: 'I was angry.

'I was really frustrated because I had rushed around and tried my hardest to get down there on time.'

Ms Clark said her daughter's breathing had improved so she took her home but phoned 999 when her breathing 'got worse'.

She added: 'At that point, we were in the surgery and she was walking and talking and her breathing had improved.

'At that point I was not too worried I took her home and I thought if she gets any worse I will take her to the hospital and when she got worse I rang 999.'

She added: 'I think there needs to be procedures put in place that emergency appointments do not get turned away ever, especially children.

'Whether you're five minutes later or half an hour late you should be seen if it's an emergency and that needs to happen.

'I have got a three year old who keeps me going and keeps me on my toes. I've got my family and friends and I take it day by day.'

Last month, Gwent Coroner Wendy James recorded a narrative verdict and ruled: 'Ellie-May Clark died from natural causes where the opportunity to provide potential life-saving treatment was missed.'

Tearful Shanice said after the hearing in Newport: 'I'm disappointed that the coroner ruled out neglect - we all felt there was enough evidence to show my little girl was neglected by the medical profession.

'I will have to live with the fact that my little girl was sent home to die by a doctor who refused to see her because we were a few minutes late.

After being turned away, the little girl was left in tears and asked her worried mother: 'Why won't the doctor see me, mummy?'

Ms Clark, 26, put her daughter to bed when they got home and planned to take her back to the GP the next day.

But she found Ellie-May not breathing at 10.30pm. An ambulance was called but doctors could not save her.

Ellie-May died of a severe asthma attack brought on by a viral infection on January 26, 2015.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5481543/Mothers-regrets-not-putting-foot-down.html#ixzz59H6ePQV3
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