Five year old dies after Dr refused to see her because she was 5 minutes late for her emergency appointment.

I truly don't know how that Dr can come to terms with this.  

" A five-year-old girl with life-threatening asthma died after being turned away from an emergency doctor's appointment because she was late, an inquest heard.
Ellie-May Clark arrived at The Grange Clinic in Newport, south Wales, five minutes after her emergency appointment at 5pm on January 25 in 2015, her mother said.
She was booked in to see Doctor Joanne Rowe, a partner in the surgery and its lead for child safeguarding, as she was wheezing and unable to walk.
Ellie-May and her mother, Shanice Clark, waited in line to see receptionist Ann Jones and reached the front of the queue between 5.10 and 5.18pm.
Dr Rowe had a "10-minute rule", where she would not see patients who arrived more than 10 minutes after their appointments, and refused to see Ellie-May as she was late, an inquest heard."




Read the full story.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/26/five-year-old-girl-died-gp-turned-away-five-minutes-late-appointment/

I read that it was ten minutes, but nevertheless, it's not good. I wonder how bad the girl actually was at the time.

It was 10 minutes or over after she had waited in line to check in.
The Dr didn't even look at the girls notes....its a tragic case of human error.

Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

eddie wrote:Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

Agree,
a little Background this is a Private GP, there are Medical Centres and the Emergency department of the Hospital
So even after being turned away there was no reason not to take her to one of the others places.

Why is it in the UK/Ireland section?

Original Quill wrote:Why is it in the UK/Ireland section?

Because it happened in the original Wales, not the new one where the antipodes live.

Original Quill wrote:Why is it in the UK/Ireland section?

Possibly because Wales is part of the UK.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

Agree,
a little Background this is a Private GP, there are Medical Centres and the Emergency department of the Hospital
So even after being turned away there was no reason not to take her to one of the others places.

The mother obviously didnt realise just how poorly the girl was.
Had the dr actually seen the girl she may well  have spotted the urgency.

I think the blame for the child dying lies firmly with the gp....she acted unprofessionally and arrogantly  imo.

eddie wrote:Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

My mother used to make me walk to church all the time, when I was very asthmatic as a boy. (yeah because god was going to heal me, silly woman)

It really would depend how the girl was with her asthma Eddie

Today, some GP surgeries have Nebulizors.

Also the doctor can present a letter that gets you passed A&E ques

Which has happened to me, when my asthmas was poor growing up

The point is, it depends how bad the child was at the time when she went to see the GP.

If she was alble to speak in full sentences, then calling 999 would advise to speak to a GP within one hour.

It was only later, when not seen by the GP she clearly was in a bad state and the mother did call 999,  but by then it was too late.

Some parents do not realise the severity of their childs breathing
Some do nopt recognise that a childs crying becomes very different when it struggles to breath.
Its chest and stomach will really prominantly suck in and out when it struggles and like here the child started to go blue

The fact is, the GP sent the child away and later the childs breathing escalated worse, as asthma can do. The doctor is very much at fault here. Surgeries know not to turn away patients when they have a problem with conditions like asthma. Mine always have the GP call me, if there is no appointment within an hour.

It says new south wales. Does anyone have difficulty with that terminology?

Original Quill wrote:It says new south wales.  Does anyone have difficulty with that terminology?

I read it as New south wales too

in Newport, south Wales

to make it more confusing the is a "Newport, New South Wales" too

It said Newport, south Wales, not New South Wales.

When the S is not capitalized it's not part of the name, but the area or cardinal direction.

eddie wrote:Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

my thoughts exactly. I've been hospitalised with asthma, and it's terrible. My first act would have been to take her to A and E where they put you on a nebuliser and monitor your oxygen levels. Dragging her to the doctors was folly.

Syl wrote:It was 10 minutes or over after she had waited in line to check in.
The Dr didn't even look at the girls notes....its a tragic case of human error.

I'm afraid I'd have kicked off if that doctor tried to send me away. Asthma kills...as she found out to her cost.

HoratioTarr wrote:

eddie wrote:Why would you go to a GP when you can’t breathe? Jesus Christ. When will people realise that the GP is a middle man and would’ve sent her to the hospital anyway?

I’m sorry, but who makes a wheezy little girl walk to the doctors to see why she can’t breathe properly??

my thoughts exactly.   I've been hospitalised with asthma, and it's terrible.   My first act would have been to take her to A and E where they put you on a nebuliser and monitor your oxygen levels.   Dragging her to the doctors was folly.

The child had been to A&E many times. Where also visits to the surgery and use of steroids had helped her.
The time difference here was just after 5pm with the appointment, then after 10pm when clearly she was struggling to breath and an ambulance was called.

Clearly if this was ongoing, the mother has an idea of the severity of her daughters breathing.
It clearly was not as severe at the time of the appointment, as I have no doubt she would have taken her straight to A&E.

I am an asthmatic myself and know whether to go to the hospital or see the GP

Should she have demanded to see the doctor?

Yes, but the doctor failed the patient here.

Most surgeries know with patients like asthmatics not to turn them away. This also shows poor training by the surgery.

I think people are wrongly concentrating on the mother, not knowing the severity of the breathing here. Doing so off hindsight that hours later the child died. The only thing I would question, is if the mother was regularly checking on the child afterwards.

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

my thoughts exactly.   I've been hospitalised with asthma, and it's terrible.   My first act would have been to take her to A and E where they put you on a nebuliser and monitor your oxygen levels.   Dragging her to the doctors was folly.

The child had been to A&E many times. Where also visits to the surgery and use of steroids had helped her.
The time difference here was just after 5pm with the appointment, then after 10pm when clearly she was struggling to breath and an ambulance was called.

Clearly if this was ongoing, the mother has an idea of the severity of her daughters breathing.
It clearly was not as severe at the time of the appointment, as I have no doubt she would have taken her straight to A&E.

I am an asthmatic myself and know whether to go to the hospital or see the GP

Should she have demanded to see the doctor?

Yes, but the doctor failed the patient here.

Most surgeries know with patients like asthmatics not to turn them away. This also shows poor training by the surgery.

I think people are wrongly concentrating on the mother, not knowing the severity of the breathing here. Doing so off hindsight that hours later the child died. The only thing I would question, is if the mother was regularly checking on the child afterwards.

Yes, I agree with you but I still would have trotted her down to A and E if the doctor turned me away particularly if she'd been hospitalised before. With asthma things can turn on a dime, and I've gone from wheezing to suffocation within minutes. If that mother was concerned enough to take her daughter to the GP, then she surely must have thought to whisk her to A and E? But that's just me and how I'd react.

Original Quill wrote:It says new south wales.  Does anyone have difficulty with that terminology?

Get to Spec Savers!

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


The child had been to A&E many times. Where also visits to the surgery and use of steroids had helped her.
The time difference here was just after 5pm with the appointment, then after 10pm when clearly she was struggling to breath and an ambulance was called.

Clearly if this was ongoing, the mother has an idea of the severity of her daughters breathing.
It clearly was not as severe at the time of the appointment, as I have no doubt she would have taken her straight to A&E.

I am an asthmatic myself and know whether to go to the hospital or see the GP

Should she have demanded to see the doctor?

Yes, but the doctor failed the patient here.

Most surgeries know with patients like asthmatics not to turn them away. This also shows poor training by the surgery.

I think people are wrongly concentrating on the mother, not knowing the severity of the breathing here. Doing so off hindsight that hours later the child died. The only thing I would question, is if the mother was regularly checking on the child afterwards.

Yes, I agree with you but I still would have trotted her down to A and E if the doctor turned me away particularly if she'd been hospitalised before.   With asthma things can turn on a dime, and I've gone from wheezing to suffocation within minutes.   If that mother was concerned enough to take her daughter to the GP, then she surely must have thought to whisk her to A and E?    But that's just me and how I'd react.  

I agree that they can quickly turn bad
I suppose everyone is different in how they react
I know i would have gone to A&E if my peakflow was below 50%

I think a combination of factors led to this child's death sadly

Does it say what the girl actually died of?


But the blame is with the mother for being late, but mainly for not rushing the child to A&E or calling an ambulance in the first place!

Original Quill wrote:It says new south wales.  Does anyone have difficulty with that terminology?

You obviously have difficulty with reading!

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:It was 10 minutes or over after she had waited in line to check in.
The Dr didn't even look at the girls notes....its a tragic case of human error.

I'm afraid I'd have kicked off if that doctor tried to send me away.   Asthma kills...as she found out to her cost.

She did kick off and it upset her child, she was told to bring the child back the next morning. The dr didn't even read the childs notes or ask why she had been given an emergency appointment.
Obviously the little girls condition worsened later on.....had the Dr seen her she would probably still be alive.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Does it say what the girl actually died of?


But the blame is with the mother for being late, but mainly for not rushing the child to A&E or calling an ambulance in the first place!

The blame is with the Dr. The child had been successfully treated at the clinic before, had the Dr bothered to even read the girls notes before arrogantly dismissing her she would have known how urgently she needed help.


"Rob Sowersby, representing Ellie-May's family, told the inquest: "Dr Rowe made a clinical decision without any clinical information whatsoever.
"She sent away a five-year-old patient from an emergency appointment without even opening her records.
"Dr Rowe agreed that when she opened the letter from the hospital, stating that Ellie-May was at risk of serious/life threatening asthma, she should have recorded that prominently on Ellie-May's clinical record.
"If she had done that, then that would have been obvious to her when the clinical records were opened."

Mr Sowersby said Ellie-May's mother was "sure" that the usual treatment provided to the girl when she attended the surgery - steroids - would have helped as they had in the past.
"There is no reason to suggest they wouldn't have worked this time," Mr Sowersby said."

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I'm afraid I'd have kicked off if that doctor tried to send me away.   Asthma kills...as she found out to her cost.

She did kick off and it upset her child, she was told to bring the child back the next morning. The dr didn't even read the childs notes or ask why she had been given an emergency appointment.
Obviously the little girls condition worsened later on.....had the Dr seen her she would probably still be alive.

If she'd have taken her to A and E instead she might still be alive.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

She did kick off and it upset her child, she was told to bring the child back the next morning. The dr didn't even read the childs notes or ask why she had been given an emergency appointment.
Obviously the little girls condition worsened later on.....had the Dr seen her she would probably still be alive.

If she'd have taken her to A and E instead she might still be alive.

Its easy to be wise after the event.
The mother obviously didn't know her daughter would get seriously ill 5 hours later.
The Dr ...had she bothered to read the childs notes, would have been aware of this and could have either prescribed the usual drugs the child received on the other occasions she had been to the surgery, or fast tracked her to A &E if she thought that was necessary.

I'm bemused why some people cant see the Dr failed badly in her duty here ...blame the parent, is that an easier option?

It was a child and an emergency appointment, what is so difficult, the doctor should have seen her.

Vintage wrote:It was a child and an emergency appointment, what is so difficult, the doctor should have seen her.

Of course she should.
The mum was only 5 minutes late in any case.
The fact that she then had to wait another 10 minutes or so to check in was the surgeries fault not hers, so the arrogant dr should blame her own system, not the mother for being late.

The rigid 10 minute self imposed rule this Dr set up is ridiculous, if someone, especially a child is being seen as an emergency she should have been seen and helped.

The doctors a disgrace. Refusing to see the little girl because she's 5 mins late. What about the wait we have in the doctors.

I hope this doctor is bought to book over this. She should hang her head in shame.

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

If she'd have taken her to A and E instead she might still be alive.

Its easy to be wise after the event.
The mother obviously didn't know her daughter would get seriously ill 5 hours later.
The Dr ...had she bothered to read the childs notes, would have been aware of this and could have either prescribed the  usual drugs the child received on the other occasions she had been to the surgery, or fast tracked her to A &E if she thought that was necessary.

I'm bemused why some people cant see the Dr failed badly in her duty here ...blame the parent, is that an easier option?

I have to disagree, as the kid was taken to hospital before, so as a parent you'd err on the side of caution. Well, I would.

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

If she'd have taken her to A and E instead she might still be alive.

Its easy to be wise after the event.
The mother obviously didn't know her daughter would get seriously ill 5 hours later.
The Dr ...had she bothered to read the childs notes, would have been aware of this and could have either prescribed the  usual drugs the child received on the other occasions she had been to the surgery, or fast tracked her to A &E if she thought that was necessary.

I'm bemused why some people cant see the Dr failed badly in her duty here ...blame the parent, is that an easier option?

I do agree the doctor failed her. But it doesn't end with the doctor. She could have taken her to A and E, and if she was bad enough to see the doc in the first place with breathing problems then that's where she'd have ended up anyway. It's a no brainer.

I agree Mags.

Doctor Joanne Rowe, is a partner in the surgery and its lead for child safeguarding,

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Its easy to be wise after the event.
The mother obviously didn't know her daughter would get seriously ill 5 hours later.
The Dr ...had she bothered to read the childs notes, would have been aware of this and could have either prescribed the  usual drugs the child received on the other occasions she had been to the surgery, or fast tracked her to A &E if she thought that was necessary.

I'm bemused why some people cant see the Dr failed badly in her duty here ...blame the parent, is that an easier option?

I do agree the doctor failed her.   But it doesn't end with the doctor.   She could have taken her to A and E, and if she was bad enough to see the doc in the first place with breathing problems then that's where she'd have ended up anyway.  It's a no brainer.

The surgery had sorted the little girl out before with the steroids she presumably needed between hospital appointments, so its understandable to me that the mum thought she was doing the right thing at the time.

Obviously the little girl deteriorated badly between 5 and 10.30 pm....unfortunately, it was too late to save her by then.

Syl wrote:I agree Mags.

Doctor Joanne Rowe, is a partner in the surgery and its lead for child safeguarding,

You know Syl, many do die from asthma attacks, normally elderly. Being so young, this doctor should've seen her.

magica wrote:

Syl wrote:I agree Mags.

Doctor Joanne Rowe, is a partner in the surgery and its lead for child safeguarding,

You know Syl, many do die from asthma attacks, normally elderly. Being so young, this doctor should've seen her.

She may have done if she had bothered to read the childs notes to understand why she needed an emergency appointment......sadly she didn't even bother to open the girls file.

The sad thing is, the Dr didn't even have any other appointments booked when she turned the child away.

An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...

Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...

Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...

Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...


If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...


Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!


A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...

Didge wrote: So that takes precedent over a more pressing life threatening situation with a child with asthma with appointments?

Really?

In this day and age, a phone can have a GP call through for a repeat prescription to the chemist. Let alone, you can do this online

We are talking about a life threatening situation. Which with asthma, can seriously escalate quickly if not dealt with in steroids or a Nebulizor

Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...

Didge wrote: That is not life threatening.

Whilst extremely painful

Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...

Didge wrote: That is not life threatening.

Whilst extremely painful

Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...

Didge wrote: That is not life threatening.

Whilst extremely painful

If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...

Didge wrote: The  you do not understand breathing difficulties

Someone maybe short of breath and have a history of this and the best course of action is to see the doctor and obtain a course of steroids. Its far cheaper and quicker to do than wait at A&E

Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!

Didge wrote: The child clearly was not at the time needing A&E or 999 care. As read by in the story,
the child had been to hospital many times. Thus there is many levels of shortness of breath
It cleary escalated 5 hours laters, which if seen by the doctor and prescribed steroids could have relived the asthma. If it did not, then the next point of call would be A&E

Going straight to A&E with every shortness of breath cost far more than seeing a gp

A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

You are confusing shortness of breath with struggling to breath
If the child was struggling to breath, then its always 999, as it is with an adult
This where people certainly do not understand what they are talking about
The child had a history of asthma, that means she would have bouts of asthma episodes
Struggling to breath is going blue in the face or unable to speak in full sentences, which is what happened later when the ambulance was called. Maybe this is why 999 is clogged up with idiots like you think you are brain surgeons. As you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 999 is for life threatening emergencies. This was not the case when she saw the GP, as it was 5 hours later, that she then struggled to breath.

So shut up with yout utter bollocks on this, because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about

You are nothing more than a daft dick, when it comes to such issues

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...



Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...



Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...


Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...


If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...


Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!



A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

You are confusing shortness of breath with struggling to breath
If the child was struggling to breath, then its always 999, as it is with an adult
This where people certainly do not understand what they are talking about
The child had a history of asthma, that means she would have bouts of asthma episodes
Struggling to breath is going blue in the face or unable to speak in full sentences, which is what happened later when the ambulance was called. Maybe this is why 999 is clogged up with idiots like you think you are brain surgeons. As you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 999 is for life threatening emergencies. This was not the case when she saw the GP, as it was 5 hours later, that she then struggled to breath.

So shut up with yout utter bollocks on this, because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about

You are nothing more than a daft dick, when it comes to such issues

i have asthma, had it most of my life. I've been hospitalised several times with it. The last attack I had I got rushed into A and E and put on a nebuliser. But guess what? My oxygen levels were normal, yet I was struggling to breathe. I could feel every cell in my body suffocating. It was horrible. Also, with asthma, the problem is often about being unable to breath out, as well as struggling to breathe in.

There are different types of asthma too. People think asthma is asthma but it's not. Asthma is a disease of the airways, not the alveoli in the lung. The alveoli continue to work OK in people with asthma. Although airway narrowing means that less air reaches the alveoli, once the air has arrived, it can pass into the blood. It can take a long time for oxygen levels to drop in patients with asthma. When it does eventually fall, it can indicate respiratory failure. So that kid taking all that time to die...? Which is why you get them to hospital if you're even remotely worried. Because sometimes that normal oxygen reading can fool people into thinking all is ok when it's not. Whenever I've been hospitalised with asthma, I've always had priority in A and E. They get you straight in with the nebuliser.

I'm taking it that this kid was already using corticosteroids? Asthma is such a serious killer because it can be stealthy and take you unawares. You think you're ok, and then something can flash trigger it and the next thing you can't fucking breathe. Or you're dead.

Tommy Monk wrote:An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...

Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...

Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...

Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...


If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...


Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!


A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

I have to agree with you for all the reason stated in my above post. Asthma can kill you quickly or slowly. I don't ever underestimate it. You might think a period of breathlessness is just being breathless, but if those inhalers don't touch it, then it's time to get to A and E.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...

Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...

Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...

Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...


If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...


Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!


A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

I have to agree with you for all the reason stated in my above post.    Asthma can kill you quickly or slowly.   I don't ever underestimate it.    You might think a period of breathlessness is just being breathless, but if those inhalers don't touch it, then it's time to get to A and E.

Then you are clogging up A&E, a smany already do when they do not need to go to A&E

How many hours would she have waited also to be seen at A&E?

If she rang 999 at the time she went to the GP, she would have been assessed using the pathways system, and they would have advised her to speak to a GP within one hour.

When my inhalers do not help, I go to the GP and get steroids or ring the surgery to have the GP call me back if there is no appointments.

Again the mother was best placed to assess the shortness of breath, not people on a forum in hindsight after the child has died

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I have to agree with you for all the reason stated in my above post.    Asthma can kill you quickly or slowly.   I don't ever underestimate it.    You might think a period of breathlessness is just being breathless, but if those inhalers don't touch it, then it's time to get to A and E.

Then you are clogging up A&E, a smany already do when they do not need to go to A&E

How many hours would she have waited also to be seen at A&E?

If she rang 999 at the time she went to the GP, she would have been assessed using the pathways system, and they would have advised her to speak to a GP within one hour.

When my inhalers do not help, I go to the GP and get steroids or ring the surgery to have the GP call me back if there is no appointments.

Again the mother was best placed to assess the shortness of breath, not people on a forum in hindsight after the child has died

Well, clearly not, as her kid is dead.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:

You are confusing shortness of breath with struggling to breath
If the child was struggling to breath, then its always 999, as it is with an adult
This where people certainly do not understand what they are talking about
The child had a history of asthma, that means she would have bouts of asthma episodes
Struggling to breath is going blue in the face or unable to speak in full sentences, which is what happened later when the ambulance was called. Maybe this is why 999 is clogged up with idiots like you think you are brain surgeons. As you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 999 is for life threatening emergencies. This was not the case when she saw the GP, as it was 5 hours later, that she then struggled to breath.

So shut up with yout utter bollocks on this, because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about

You are nothing more than a daft dick, when it comes to such issues

i have asthma, had it most of my life.   I've been hospitalised several times with it.    The last attack I had I got rushed into A and E and put on a nebuliser.   But guess what?   My oxygen levels were normal, yet I was struggling to breathe.   I could feel every cell in my body suffocating.   It was horrible.   Also, with asthma, the problem is often about being unable to breath out, as well as struggling to breathe in.    

There are different types of asthma too.  People think asthma is asthma but it's not.   Asthma is a disease of the airways, not the alveoli in the lung. The alveoli continue to work OK in people with asthma. Although airway narrowing means that less air reaches the alveoli, once the air has arrived, it can pass into the blood. It can take a long time for oxygen levels to drop in patients with asthma. When it does eventually fall, it can indicate respiratory failure.   So that kid taking all that time to die...?   Which is why you get them to hospital if you're even remotely worried.  Because sometimes that normal oxygen reading can fool people into thinking all is ok when it's not.  Whenever I've been hospitalised with asthma, I've always had priority in A and E.   They get you straight in with the nebuliser.

I'm taking it that this kid was already using corticosteroids?   Asthma is such a serious killer because it can be stealthy and take you unawares.   You think you're ok, and then something can flash trigger it and the next thing you can't fucking breathe.   Or you're dead.

Then you were not struggling to breath if your oxygen stats were normal
I guess it was more panic than anything, which is more the case many times with people when they have shortness of breath and the inhalers do not seem to be working. This is very typical in many asthma suffers is a view they cannot breath, when they can, but panic is making the mind think they cannot breath.
If you are able to speak in a full sentence, then you are not struggling to breath.

I mean many COPD patients are continually short of breath, that is how they now live and in how they have to manage their condition. Those that ring up know they need a go to A&E and they have nebulizors and even sometimes oxygen. So to say you need to go to A&E everytime someone is short of breath is wrong and simple clogs up A&E. When again this should be managed within the bounds of the surgery

I have been in hospital many times with asthma and only when steroids do not work and my oxygen stats are borderline or under 90.

So I understand the condition very well, as I have had this since I was one years of age

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


Then you are clogging up A&E, a smany already do when they do not need to go to A&E

How many hours would she have waited also to be seen at A&E?

If she rang 999 at the time she went to the GP, she would have been assessed using the pathways system, and they would have advised her to speak to a GP within one hour.

When my inhalers do not help, I go to the GP and get steroids or ring the surgery to have the GP call me back if there is no appointments.

Again the mother was best placed to assess the shortness of breath, not people on a forum in hindsight after the child has died

Well, clearly not, as her kid is dead.

Again, easy to say in hindsight, which is why she was not taken to cout but the GP was.

This guideline from the Asthma UK website.

Never delay seeking urgent help because you’re worried about making a fuss or you’re fed up of going to hospital. Getting emergency treatment quickly can make the difference between life and death with asthma attacks. Tragically, three people in the UK die from an asthma attack every day, with nearly half of those (45 per cent) dying before they’ve received emergency medical care.

HoratioTarr wrote:This guideline from the Asthma UK website.

Never delay seeking urgent help because you’re worried about making a fuss or you’re fed up of going to hospital. Getting emergency treatment quickly can make the difference between life and death with asthma attacks. Tragically, three people in the UK die from an asthma attack every day, with nearly half of those (45 per cent) dying before they’ve received emergency medical care.

She did seek medical care at the surgery twice in the same week. I suggest people fully read the article

Hence why the GP is in court

Mr Sowersby said Ellie-May's mother was "sure" that the usual treatment provided to the girl when she attended the surgery - steroids - would have helped as they had in the past.

"There is no reason to suggest they wouldn't have worked this time," Mr Sowersby said.

Miss Clark told the inquest that Ellie-May began suffering with a wheezy chest and was first admitted to hospital in November 2011, two months before her second birthday.

She was prescribed inhalers but returned to hospital every three to four months, with the last admission before her death in March 2014.

In May, a consultant wrote to The Grange Clinic stating: "Ellie-May has previously had severe exacerbations of asthma requiring admission to the high dependency unit.

"This places her at risk of having another episode of severe/life threatening asthma."

Dr Rowe received the letter but did not prominently record that Ellie-May was at high-risk on her medical records.

Ellie-May was kept off school for four days and attended the surgery on January 22 due to wheezing.

Miss Clark said her daughter was wheezy when she collected her from Malpas Court Primary School at 3pm on January 25.

She carried her crying daughter to her mother's house and phoned the doctor's surgery at 3.30pm to request a home visit.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/26/five-year-old-girl-died-gp-turned-away-five-minutes-late-appointment/

So clearly the child has ongoing asthma, which is managed by the surgery and every few months she is admitted to hospital.

In this instance she had been to the surgery already 3 days earlier and the child had remained off school. The child went back to school (clearly was better) when she picked her up she found her wheezy ( not struggling to breath. Which also begs the question why the school did not ring the mother)

The mother did the right thing and phoned the surgery. The GP should be well aware of her condition and records and thus made a huge failing here. People with severe asthma have plans in place. Hence why I think people are being completely unfair to the mother.

The only thing I would question, is why did she not call the OOH doctor

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

i have asthma, had it most of my life.   I've been hospitalised several times with it.    The last attack I had I got rushed into A and E and put on a nebuliser.   But guess what?   My oxygen levels were normal, yet I was struggling to breathe.   I could feel every cell in my body suffocating.   It was horrible.   Also, with asthma, the problem is often about being unable to breath out, as well as struggling to breathe in.    

There are different types of asthma too.  People think asthma is asthma but it's not.   Asthma is a disease of the airways, not the alveoli in the lung. The alveoli continue to work OK in people with asthma. Although airway narrowing means that less air reaches the alveoli, once the air has arrived, it can pass into the blood. It can take a long time for oxygen levels to drop in patients with asthma. When it does eventually fall, it can indicate respiratory failure.   So that kid taking all that time to die...?   Which is why you get them to hospital if you're even remotely worried.  Because sometimes that normal oxygen reading can fool people into thinking all is ok when it's not.  Whenever I've been hospitalised with asthma, I've always had priority in A and E.   They get you straight in with the nebuliser.

I'm taking it that this kid was already using corticosteroids?   Asthma is such a serious killer because it can be stealthy and take you unawares.   You think you're ok, and then something can flash trigger it and the next thing you can't fucking breathe.   Or you're dead.

Then you were not struggling to breath if your oxygen stats were normal
I guess it was more panic than anything, which is more the case many times with people when they have shortness of breath and the inhalers do not seem to be working. This is very typical in many asthma suffers is a view they cannot breath, when they can, but panic is making the mind think they cannot breath.
If you are able to speak in a full sentence, then you are not struggling to breath.

I mean many COPD patients are continually short of breath, that is how they now live and in how they have to manage their condition. Those that ring up know they need a go to A&E and they have nebulizors and even sometimes oxygen. So to say you need to go to A&E everytime someone is short of breath is wrong and simple clogs up A&E. When again this should be managed within the bounds of the surgery

I have been in hospital many times with asthma and only when steroids do not work and my oxygen stats are borderline or under 90.

So I understand the condition very well, as I have had this since I was one years of age

Unless your airways are completely blocked at least a little bit of air still gets through those tight lungs, and that little bit of air is usually enough to keep the blood oxygen level within the lower limits of the normal range. It’s usually not until you’ve been working really hard to breath over a period of several hours, or sometimes even days, that your body can no longer compensate and that’s when your O2 sats will start to drop and things can get dangerous.

Everyone is different with asthma, Didge. Your or mine experience won't be the same for others. It's an insult to asthma sufferers to trivialise their attacks by stating they are not struggling to breathe just because of the 02 sat readings or saying it's merely a panic attack. It's not that simple. If your sat level is higher than 95%, it doesn't mean that you’re not sick or not suffering, it just means that you’re still able to oxygenate your body at that time. And that can change very very quickly. And don't forget some factors will affect a reading. Dirty fingers, nail polish and poor circulation to the extremities will all alter the accuracy of a pulse oximeter reading.

Asthma is not a disease that normally effects our ability to oxygenate unlike emphysema.

When I went to A and E they insisted in keeping me in overnight to monitor me. Why? Because of all that I've stated about 02 sats.

I totally agree that this doctor was a dick and should have had that kid on high alert or been managing her asthma better? But I also think due to the history going on that the mother should have taken her to A and E sooner.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Didge wrote:


Then you were not struggling to breath if your oxygen stats were normal
I guess it was more panic than anything, which is more the case many times with people when they have shortness of breath and the inhalers do not seem to be working. This is very typical in many asthma suffers is a view they cannot breath, when they can, but panic is making the mind think they cannot breath.
If you are able to speak in a full sentence, then you are not struggling to breath.

I mean many COPD patients are continually short of breath, that is how they now live and in how they have to manage their condition. Those that ring up know they need a go to A&E and they have nebulizors and even sometimes oxygen. So to say you need to go to A&E everytime someone is short of breath is wrong and simple clogs up A&E. When again this should be managed within the bounds of the surgery

I have been in hospital many times with asthma and only when steroids do not work and my oxygen stats are borderline or under 90.

So I understand the condition very well, as I have had this since I was one years of age

Unless your airways are completely blocked at least a little bit of air still gets through those tight lungs, and that little bit of air is usually enough to keep the blood oxygen level within the lower limits of the normal range. It’s usually not until you’ve been working really hard to breath over a period of several hours, or sometimes even days, that your body can no longer compensate and that’s when your O2 sats will start to drop and things can get dangerous.

Everyone is different with asthma, Didge.  Your or mine experience won't be the same for others.   It's an insult to asthma sufferers to trivialise their attacks by stating they are not struggling to breathe just because of the 02 sat readings or saying it's merely a panic attack.  It's not that simple.    If your sat level is higher than 95%, it doesn't mean that you’re not sick or not suffering, it just means that you’re still able to oxygenate your body at that time.   And that can change very very quickly.   And don't forget some factors will affect a reading.  Dirty fingers, nail polish  and poor circulation to the extremities will all alter the accuracy of a pulse oximeter reading.  

Asthma is not a disease that normally effects our ability to oxygenate unlike emphysema.

When I went to A and E they insisted in keeping me in overnight to monitor me.   Why?   Because of all that I've stated about 02 sats.

I totally agree that this doctor was  a dick and should have had that kid on  high alert or been managing her asthma better?   But I also think due to the history going on that the mother should have taken her to A and E sooner.

If your airways were completely blocked, you would not have normal oxygen stats. You would go blue and die very quickly Horatio. Like I say if your oxygen stats are normal, then I would say its more panic that is making your wheezing worse. An A&E department would place you still on a nebulizor as this helps also to ease the panic people also suffer with. I have had my stats be below 90 on 3 occasions and at that point, my peak flow was below 25%. In each case I was in hospital for over a week. Not overnight, but over a week. They will keep you in overnight as a precaution. This is why people should keep and maintain a peak flow to understand how severe their wheezing is. I never even claimed you are okay if your stats are at 95, you will still be wheezy.

Thats a bit far fetched to say on the readings. There is always a very good indicator also on low oxygen stats, if they struggle to obtain blood ffrom your veins. During such attacks of asthma, when its bad, they will struggle to locate the vein and obtain a blood sample. I have had the times where both arms later are black and blue on the inner part of my elbows. Another indicator is whether someone can speak in a full sentence. With a child, if their stomach and chest are really prominantly sucking in and out. With a baby, they will not be able to cry properly as well.

I am not trying to trivilize anything. I have read the account and at the time the child was picked up from school she was wheezy. Not struggling to breath. She had been off school recently and been to the surgery with wheezing. She had been to hospital on a number of occasions. So again its clear the mother had a good understanding here. Again its easy to say in hindsight what the mother should have done. The mother kept close watch of her child as seen in the article. To me, and I am guessing the child suffers regularly with wheezing and is normal for this child. I guess the mother did not expect it to deteriorate to the level it did so quickly. We can debate this all day, but she clearly was doing what she had always done and clearly at the time she was wheezy did not make her believe the child needed to go straight to A&E

One thing I will add and many people do not realise.
If at the time she had of rang 999, when her child was wheezy.
They would have advised her to speak to a GP within one hour. At the time she was wheezy and not struggling to breath.

Now a surgery has a duty of care to see a patient, when advised by the new pathways system. They will even get a copy of the call to the surgery which is sent through the system. People can use this to ensure they do get an appointment with the surgery or have the GP call them back. So if a receptionist tries to throb you off and you have a call taken with either 999 or 111. And they advise a timescale for you to be seen or spoken to within surgery opening times. Then that surgery has a duty of care to see or speak to the patient.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:An 'emergency' appointment at a Dr's is one of a few appointment slots that are given out daily for people who need to see their GP for fairly general/non life threatening things but can't wait a few days (or up to two weeks sometimes) for next available regularly allocated appointment slot... for example... someone may need an urgent prescription issued for an ongoing problem cos they have run out of meds for some reason...

Or someone has got up that morning with severe back pain and struggling to walk cos of a trapped nerve in spine and needs some real strong pain killers and cream to put on affected area...

Or Dr may have a patient who they have just seen in recent days and issued treatment to, but told them to come back immediately if symptoms still bad/or worsen after couple days, or if the patient gets side effects from meds etc...

Or someone may suffer from occasional bouts of severe anxiety/panic attacks, maybe only a couple of times a year, so normally not taking any meds and won't have any meds to take, but needs to get seen quick to get a prescription issued...


If I had a young child who was struggling to breathe properly, then I would be rushing them straight up to the nearest A&E/hospital, or calling an ambulance...


Not waited 5 hours for child to die, after fannying around after being late for an 'emergency' GP appointment...!!!


A child struggling to breathe is an immediate 999 ambulance call 'emergency'... or rush to A&E/hospital by any quicker means of transport!!!

I have to agree with you for all the reason stated in my above post.    Asthma can kill you quickly or slowly.   I don't ever underestimate it.    You might think a period of breathlessness is just being breathless, but if those inhalers don't touch it, then it's time to get to A and E.

Thanks HT... and yes I know how serious and life threatening asthma can be... which is why I posted what I did...!


The OP article says the child was 'wheezing and unable to walk'... Also that the mother had to carry the distressed child from the school to childs grandmothers house...


Another post of article quote says that a call was made to GP at 3.30 that day, requesting a home visit...


Plus previous history of seriousness was also mentioned...


So clearly the child was in need of immediate hospital emergency treatment, and the mother was well aware of the seriousness of childs condition, the highly likelyhood of requirement of emergency hospital treatment, as well as the risk to childs life if not urgently taken to hospital to receive that specialist emergency treatment...!


Maybe Didge is right that the mother didn't want to take child to hospital because she might have had to hang around up there while child was treated... and that was 'inconvenient' for her for some reason... maybe she didn't want to miss some tv shows, or she had important 'facebook' stuff to read/post... or some other important 'me time' stuff to do...!?

Didge wrote:One thing I will add and many people do not realise.
If at the time she had of rang 999, when her child was wheezy.
They would have advised her to speak to a GP within one hour. At the time she was wheezy and not struggling to breath.

Now a surgery has a duty of care to see a patient, when advised by the new pathways system. They will even get a copy of the call to the surgery which is sent through the system. People can use this to ensure they do get an appointment with the surgery or have the GP call them back. So if a receptionist tries to throb you off and you have a call taken with either 999 or 111. And they advise a timescale for you to be seen or spoken to within surgery opening times. Then that surgery has a duty of care to see or speak to the patient.

Oooh er Mrs...!