Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

What about people who leave their keys in their car?

Florida state Rep. Wengay Newton (D–St. Petersburg) is so tough on auto theft that he wants to punish the crime's victims as well.

Newton has introduced a bill that would make it a criminal offense to have your car stolen if you leave it unlocked with the keys inside. His legislation would make this a second-degree misdemeanor; violators would face fines of up to $500 and jail time of up to 60 days.

But only if the person who steals the car is a minor. Having the same unlocked car stolen by an adult would not be a criminal offense.

"We have a lot of juveniles getting access to vehicles unlawfully. However, these juveniles are not using guns or force. These vehicles are pretty much just left running with keys in them," Newton told WTSP. He claims his bill would "close this floodgate of a crime of opportunity."

Leaving one's car unlocked can already lead to a citation in Florida, but a Tampa Bay Times analysis found that these are rarely issued.

Not surprisingly, this proposal has prompted some pushback from people who say it's unfair to crime victims. That includes a number of law enforcement officials.

"I don't think it would be appropriate to charge a victim for a crime," Clearwater Police Chief Daniel Slaughter told the Tampa Bay Times. "When we're trying to build trust in the community, it wouldn't really breed a culture of trust between victims and law enforcement." St. Petersburg Police Chief Anthony Holloway expressed similar sentiments, pointing out to the paper that "people won't report it, or they'll lie to us."


http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/12/florida-bill-would-make-it-a-crime-to-be

Sorry, but I am at a loss how you are connecting rape, blaming the victim for what they wear. Compared to someone being irresponible leaving their car unlocked and the keys in there, to if a child then steals this, who could then cause a crash?

You do realise that rapists, rape either women or men, due to a form of control and powerment over their victims no matter what they wear?

Didge wrote:Sorry, but I am at a loss how you are connecting rape blaming the victim for what they wear. Compared to someone being irresponible leaving their car unlocked and the keys in there, to if a child then steals this?

You do realise that rapists, rape either women or men, due to a form of control and powerment over their victims no matter what they wear?

You are blaming the victim of a crime for not taking better preventative measures.

Didge wrote:Sorry, but I am at a loss how you are connecting rape, blaming the victim for what they wear. Compared to someone being irresponible leaving their car unlocked and the keys in there, to if a child then steals this, who could then cause a crash?

You do realise that rapists, rape either women or men, due to a form of control and powerment over their victims no matter what they wear?

How do you feel about people who don't lock their front doors when they go to sleep? How long would you put them in jail?

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:Sorry, but I am at a loss how you are connecting rape blaming the victim for what they wear. Compared to someone being irresponible leaving their car unlocked and the keys in there, to if a child then steals this?

You do realise that rapists, rape either women or men, due to a form of control and powerment over their victims no matter what they wear?

You are blaming the victim of a crime for not taking better preventative measures.

What preventative measures would that be?

Lock up all men in regards to women victims of rape?

So I am not blaming them at all.

Like Didge I don't see the connection with rape and stealing a car.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:Sorry, but I am at a loss how you are connecting rape, blaming the victim for what they wear. Compared to someone being irresponible leaving their car unlocked and the keys in there, to if a child then steals this, who could then cause a crash?

You do realise that rapists, rape either women or men, due to a form of control and powerment over their victims no matter what they wear?

How do you feel about people who don't lock their front doors when they go to sleep? How long would you put them in jail?

I would not criminalize them for this, as what crime have they committed?

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

How do you feel about people who don't lock their front doors when they go to sleep? How long would you put them in jail?

I would not criminalize them for this, as what crime have they committed?

They left their doors unlocked. They made it easy for a crime to be committed. You know, like leaving your keys in your car.

magica wrote:Like Didge I don't see the connection with rape and stealing a car.

Are they not both crimes that have victims?

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

You are blaming the victim of a crime for not taking better preventative measures.

What preventative measures would that be?

Lock up all men in regards to women victims of rape?

So I am not blaming them at all.

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

I would not criminalize them for this, as what crime have they committed?

They left their doors unlocked. They made it easy for a crime to be committed. You know, like leaving your keys in your car.  

They may have forgotten to do so, which would make such a law arbitrary.

Again this has no connection to rape, as again men or women rape their victims, no matter how they are dressed.

In fact some studies have shown that revealing clothing shows a confidence in women, that scares off rapiests who are looking for someone submissive.

Here, have a read on this at page 20

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1109&context=djglp

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

What preventative measures would that be?

Lock up all men in regards to women victims of rape?

So I am not blaming them at all.

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

Clothes have nothing to with how a victim is targeted. How they are targeted is based on how they see someone as weak, submissive.
What you are doing is trying provide excuses for the rapist.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

They left their doors unlocked. They made it easy for a crime to be committed. You know, like leaving your keys in your car.  

They may have forgotten to do so, which would make such a law arbitrary.

Again this has no connection to rape, as again men or women rape their victims, no matter how they are dressed.

In fact some studies have shown that revealing clothing shows a confidence in women, that scares off rapiests who are looking for someone submissive.

Here, have a read on this at page 20

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1109&context=djglp

OK, blame them for walking alone. The point is that you are blaming the victim of the crime for not taking better preventative measures.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

Clothes have nothing to with how a victim is targeted. How they are targeted is based on how they see someone as weak, submissive.
What you are doing is trying provide excuses for the rapist.

You are trying to provide excuses for a thief.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

They may have forgotten to do so, which would make such a law arbitrary.

Again this has no connection to rape, as again men or women rape their victims, no matter how they are dressed.

In fact some studies have shown that revealing clothing shows a confidence in women, that scares off rapiests who are looking for someone submissive.

Here, have a read on this at page 20

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1109&context=djglp

OK, blame them for walking alone. The point is that you are blaming the victim of the crime for not taking better preventative measures.

 

So now women cannot walk alone?

Wow

So you want the Police to provide all women who work late in offices, to have escorts?

Your argument is so ridiculous, you might as well tell people never to venture outside, based on their might be victims of attacks.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

OK, blame them for walking alone. The point is that you are blaming the victim of the crime for not taking better preventative measures.

 

So now women cannot walk alone?

Wow

So you want the Police to provide all women who work late in offices, to have escorts?

Your argument is so ridiculous, you might as well tell people never to venture outside, based on their might be victims of attacks.

So people can't leave their keys in their cars?

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Clothes have nothing to with how a victim is targeted. How they are targeted is based on how they see someone as weak, submissive.
What you are doing is trying provide excuses for the rapist.

You are trying to provide excuses for a thief.  

Am I?

How would the thief even know some place in unlocked, unless they actually dry the door or window?

It means, they would have already decided on a place no matter if locked or not.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

You are trying to provide excuses for a thief.  

Am I?

How would the thief even know some place in unlocked, unless they actually dry the door or window?

It means, they would have already decided on a place no matter if locked or not.

Yes, you are making an excuse for someone who steals a car because they see the keys in it.

Also from the article.

Newton insists his bill wouldn't punish real victims. "I had a lady follow me after a panel, saying let me get this straight, Representative, you want to punish me because they steal my car?" Newton said to WTSP. "I said no ma'am, only when you give it away."

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Am I?

How would the thief even know some place in unlocked, unless they actually dry the door or window?

It means, they would have already decided on a place no matter if locked or not.

Yes, you are making an excuse for someone who steals a car because they see the keys in it.

So if the keys are in the car, how do they even know the door is open?

They would have to try, and that is called an opportunist criminal.

However with a rapist, they target what they see as weak or submissive and as seen revealing clothes can and does scares rapists. To say a woman wearing relevaling clothes in this context means, you are saying that woman has unlocked her vagina or anus for access. Its so ridiculous, its not even a reasoned argument.

So there is nothing comparable here, because it shows you are just doing what many people do when brought up with a Christian ethos upbringing.

Its the blame a woman for the original sin syndrone.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yes, you are making an excuse for someone who steals a car because they see the keys in it.

So if the keys are in the car, how do they even know the door is open?

They would have to try, and that is called an opportunist criminal.

However with a rapist, they target what they see as weak or submissive and as seen revealing clothes can and does scares rapists. To say a woman wearing relevaling clothes in this context means, you are saying that woman has unlocked her vagina or anus for access. Its so ridiculous, its not even a reasoned argument.

So there is nothing comparable here, because it shows you are just doing what many people do when brought up with a Christian ethos upbringing.

Its the blame a woman for the original sin syndrone.

So, it should be illegal to "tempt" a criminal?

Oh, an fuck off the Christian ethos bullshit. I don't need a shrink, and I doubt you're qualified.

The point here is victim shaming. I don't think it should happen, and you seem to think it's OK in some cases.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

So if the keys are in the car, how do they even know the door is open?

They would have to try, and that is called an opportunist criminal.

However with a rapist, they target what they see as weak or submissive and as seen revealing clothes can and does scares rapists. To say a woman wearing relevaling clothes in this context means, you are saying that woman has unlocked her vagina or anus for access. Its so ridiculous, its not even a reasoned argument.

So there is nothing comparable here, because it shows you are just doing what many people do when brought up with a Christian ethos upbringing.

Its the blame a woman for the original sin syndrone.

So, it should be illegal to "tempt" a criminal?

Tempt?

So by this, do you mean, its tempting to hit a Jew, someone black,, someone white, someone Muslim, someone with giner hair? Someone short, someone obese etc?

Can you elaborate on your meaning here?

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

So, it should be illegal to "tempt" a criminal?

Tempt?

So by this, do you mean, its tempting to hit a Jew, someone black,, someone white, someone Muslim, someone with giner hair? Someone short, someone obese etc?

Can you elaborate on your meaning here?

Tempt, as in leaving keys where they may see them.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Tempt?

So by this, do you mean, its tempting to hit a Jew, someone black,, someone white, someone Muslim, someone with giner hair? Someone short, someone obese etc?

Can you elaborate on your meaning here?

Tempt, as in leaving keys where they may see them.

But was it deliberately done?

Again its arbitrary.

So again you really have no leg to stand on with this poor comparison.

Where again you seem to think keys and short skirts are comprable to having access.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Tempt, as in leaving keys where they may see them.

But was it deliberately done?

Again its arbitrary.

So again you really have no leg to stand on with this poor comparison.

Where again you seem to think keys and short skirts are comprable to having access.

It doesn't matter if it was deliberate. The fact is, with this law it would be a crime to do it. Doesnt matter if you meant to do it.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

But was it deliberately done?

Again its arbitrary.

So again you really have no leg to stand on with this poor comparison.

Where again you seem to think keys and short skirts are comprable to having access.

It doesn't matter if it was deliberate. The fact is, with this law it would be a crime to do it. Doesnt matter if you meant to do it.

Well lets see if they do end up making it law.

Its still so far removed from your argument on short skirts and has no comparrison.

Like I say, a short skirt is not comparable to car keys.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

It doesn't matter if it was deliberate. The fact is, with this law it would be a crime to do it. Doesnt matter if you meant to do it.

Well lets see if they do end up making it law.

Its still so far removed from your argument on short skirts and has no comparrison.

Like I say, a short skirt is not comparable to car keys.

So you think it's a good law?

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Well lets see if they do end up making it law.

Its still so far removed from your argument on short skirts and has no comparrison.

Like I say, a short skirt is not comparable to car keys.

So you think it's a good law?

Nope

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

So you think it's a good law?

Nope

Me either. You spent 25 minutes being an ass defending a law that you feel is not a good one?

OK.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Nope

Me either. You spent 25 minutes being an ass defending a law that you feel is not a good one?

OK.  

Sorry, but at what point did I ever agree or defend it?

I stated quite clearly that it was not even remotely comparable a short skirt and car keys.

Maybe you can show where I did defend such a law?

I totally get the comparisons Maddog is making - I am not sure why anyone is splitting hairs over it.

eddie wrote:I totally get the comparisons Maddog is making - I am not sure why anyone is splitting hairs over it.

Okay, explain how car keys left inside a car which allows an opportunist theft is comparable to a woman wearing a short skirt, making a view this gives open access to her vagina or anus?

By the way, you do realise that Maddog does not even believe women wearing short skirts is like car keys being left in the car for an opportunist crime.

His main point was on how he disagreed with this law.

I starting to get maddog's reasoning on things to see how people react.

Didge wrote:By the way, you do realise that Maddog does not even believe women wearing short skirts is like car keys being left in the car for an opportunist crime.

His main point was on how he disagreed with this law.

I starting to get maddog's reasoning on things to see how people react.

I meant I got where he was coming from, not that I agreed. We all know, for instance, short skirts are nothing to do with rape and everything to do with power.
But the comparisons are the same if you just take the words for what they are.

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:By the way, you do realise that Maddog does not even believe women wearing short skirts is like car keys being left in the car for an opportunist crime.

His main point was on how he disagreed with this law.

I starting to get maddog's reasoning on things to see how people react.

I meant I got where he was coming from, not that I agreed.  We all know, for instance, short skirts are nothing to do with rape and everything to do with power.
But the comparisons are the same if you just take the words for what they are.  

That makes absolute zero sense Eddie

If short skirts are nothing to do with how and why people are raped, how then is the comparrisons the same?

As opportunists do see how they can steal a car easier, if the door is unlocked

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

What preventative measures would that be?

Lock up all men in regards to women victims of rape?

So I am not blaming them at all.

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

You really are "full of shit" with this thread here today,  Maddog...

Looks like you have been reading too many of Smelly's posts in quick succession lately  ?!?

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

You really are "full of shit" with this thread here today,  Maddog...

Looks like you have been reading too many of Smelly's posts in quick succession lately  ?!?

You do realise he was making more a point on how bad this law was?

Maddog like me, likes to generate discussion

He does not believe women wearing short skirts are asking for rape

Conflating two quite disparate and unrelated subjects into attempting to make one (often shaky..) argument...

That's the kind of irrational and illogical approach we might expect from Smelly', Tommy or Deano, with some of their more desperate efforts..

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Conflating two quite disparate and unrelated subjects into attempting to make one (often shaky..) argument...

That's the kind of irrational and illogical approach we might expect from Smelly', Tommy or Deano, with some of their more desperate efforts..

He was making apoint on how poor this law was. Sadly with a poor comparrison, but I later understood his reasoning.

He simple choose a poor argument.


Maddog, is certainly not what he comes accross, he will though push the buttons of people.

He is in fact very liberal, though I doubt he would admit to this

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:By the way, you do realise that Maddog does not even believe women wearing short skirts is like car keys being left in the car for an opportunist crime.

His main point was on how he disagreed with this law.

I starting to get maddog's reasoning on things to see how people react.

I meant I got where he was coming from, not that I agreed.  We all know, for instance, short skirts are nothing to do with rape and everything to do with power.
But the comparisons are the same if you just take the words for what they are.  

That makes absolute zero sense Eddie

If short skirts are nothing to do with how and why people are raped, how then is the comparrisons the same?

As opportunists do see how they can steal a car easier, if the door is unlocked

To be fair I've just read that back didge and I'm not sure what I meant Hahahahahaha
I sort of knew what I meant at the time though? Okay I'll shut up now

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:

That makes absolute zero sense Eddie

If short skirts are nothing to do with how and why people are raped, how then is the comparrisons the same?

As opportunists do see how they can steal a car easier, if the door is unlocked

To be fair I've just read that back didge and I'm not sure what I meant Hahahahahaha
I sort of knew what I meant at the time though? Okay I'll shut up now

I love how batty you are at times Eddie  

In the best possible way..

I think I grasp where you were coming from, more to the point Maddog was making on how he did not agree with the law. Not on his comparrison

I think that is fair to say

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:I totally get the comparisons Maddog is making - I am not sure why anyone is splitting hairs over it.

Okay, explain how car keys left inside a car which allows an opportunist theft is comparable to a woman wearing a short skirt, making a view this gives open access to her vagina or anus?

Name another crime, besides rape, that has historic overtones about blaming the victim?

That's where the comparison lies, not between the seriousness of the crime.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Okay, explain how car keys left inside a car which allows an opportunist theft is comparable to a woman wearing a short skirt, making a view this gives open access to her vagina or anus?

Name another crime, besides rape, that has historic overtones about blaming the victim?

That's where the comparison lies, not between the seriousness of the crime.

Religious commands

Didge wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Conflating two quite disparate and unrelated subjects into attempting to make one (often shaky..) argument...

That's the kind of irrational and illogical approach we might expect from Smelly', Tommy or Deano, with some of their more desperate efforts..

He was making apoint on how poor this law was. Sadly with a poor comparrison, but I later understood his reasoning.

He simple choose a poor argument.


Maddog, is certainly not what he comes accross, he will though push the buttons of people.

He is in fact very liberal, though I doubt he would admit to this

I am a social liberal in that I don't really care what other people do. I am also a classical liberal in the vein of Jefferson or Madison.

I am most definitely a fan of civil liberties, which has a strong "liberal" bent. (get a warrant copper )

The problem with me is, most Europeans and Brits have zero experience with people like me. They have been raised since birth to think collectively. I believe in the rights of the individual, over the rights of the group. I'd be a shitty European.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Name another crime, besides rape, that has historic overtones about blaming the victim?

That's where the comparison lies, not between the seriousness of the crime.

Religion

Religion is not a crime.

Religion may be used to judge people, but that is different.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Wear different clothes. Walk in groups. Stay out of certain parts of town with higher crime rates. Don't drink too much around men. Don't be around drunk men.

You really are "full of shit" with this thread here today,  Maddog...

Looks like you have been reading too many of Smelly's posts in quick succession lately  ?!?

What is your opinion of the law?

How long do you think someone should spend in jail for leaving their keys in the car?

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:


He was making apoint on how poor this law was. Sadly with a poor comparrison, but I later understood his reasoning.

He simple choose a poor argument.


Maddog, is certainly not what he comes accross, he will though push the buttons of people.

He is in fact very liberal, though I doubt he would admit to this

I am a social liberal in that I don't really care what other people do. I am also a classical liberal in the vein of Jefferson or Madison.

I am most definitely a fan of civil liberties, which has a strong "liberal" bent. (get a warrant copper  )

The problem with me is, most Europeans and Brits have zero experience with people like me. They have been raised since birth to think collectively. I believe in the rights of the individual, over the rights of the group. I'd be a shitty European.  

Well I guess what you are mate  

You are a true secularist and fully enlightened, but it has no constraints

You are a full adovate of free speech and most likely dislike PC intently

So do we all, and you just like to push people to their limits.

But with me, I understand this.

I try to see both sides of an argument

The reailty is though, what rights?

Do human rights really exist?

They are after all a social construct, rightly based on the golden rule.

Maddog wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


You really are "full of shit" with this thread here today,  Maddog...

Looks like you have been reading too many of Smelly's posts in quick succession lately  ?!?

What is your opinion of the law?

How long do you think someone should spend in jail for leaving their keys in the car?

I reckon the proposed law goes too far...

It should only be a minor misdemeanour -- treated like some other minor traffic infringements or local ordinance infringements..

Jail time shouldn't even come into it.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:


Religion

Religion is not a crime.

Religion may be used to judge people, but that is different.

It certainly has historic overtones and it certainly blames the victim

It fits your question

You must agree on that, as its then based on the arbitrary view point on that religion.

Like for example, the Abrahamic concept of original sin, with eve.

It has to be the worst illogical view point

A god creates a man and a woman, both with the intellect of Toddlers, not knowing right from wrong and then blames the woman. For listening to the serpent. Who was right, that if she eats from the fruit, her eyes will be open. The snake was right and yet God condemns the woman, who before eating, had no conception of right and wrong. Where because of this, the whole Christian belief system, is based on this original sin. Where by this, and because of this, women have wrongly been seen as inferior and a bad influence.

That has to be the most classic example of blaming a victim, as what crime did Eve commit?

None

Yet women have suffered centuries of discrimination off this and still do today