British Babies Killed For Being Girls

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

and your point is?

You think this is only a problem with some Muslims, its not, so you need to understand the whole issue

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

You told me it was difficult and asked me to present a case - I presented it and now you are trying to change it.

So 15 year old girl born in the UK and resided in UK since birth.

Teacher raises suspicions and she is examined and it is found she has been mutilated.

She has never been outside of her parents care for a significant amount of time.

When she was mutilated is irrelevant.  It is illegal.

Where she was mutilated is irrelevant.  It is illegal.

The parents can and should be charged with failing to seek medical attention for a life threatening/changing injury.  There is no other evidence required to take this to trial.

I said I would be the defense, are you now saying they would not do the same.

Yes it is illegal, you have to prove they were involved

Are you starting to understanding how hard it is to prove?

PhilDidge wrote:I have to go and to me there should be no mutilation of children Sphinx this includes boys as well, as to me it is going against their rights being forced onto them.

The fact is you think the law is able to prosecute on the bases os the evidence alone of the mutilation, you will find that very difficult, you have the smoking gun, but no evidence to pinpoint to who used it and a child is not in constant company of parents, this you seriously know to be true, so how can you prove they did, which is what you are missing.

Again this is a mock court here, the onus is on you to prove their involvement with the child stating they did not do it and it was relatives abroad

heavenly father wrote:circumcision is not mutilation and it does no harm but it is the only muslim retort to female genital mutilation which does a great deal of both physical and mental harm, the two cannot be compared in anyway.

still would love to know what Christians practice female genital mutilation and make their daughters abort female babies, especially in Britain.

sphinx wrote:

heavenly father wrote:circumcision is not mutilation and it does no harm but it is the only muslim retort to female genital mutilation which does a great deal of  both physical and mental harm, the two cannot be compared in anyway.

still would love to know what Christians practice female genital mutilation and make their daughters abort female babies, especially in Britain.

http://www.msmagazine.com/oct00/makingthecut.html

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:I have to go and to me there should be no mutilation of children Sphinx this includes boys as well, as to me it is going against their rights being forced onto them.

The fact is you think the law is able to prosecute on the bases os the evidence alone of the mutilation, you will find that very difficult, you have the smoking gun, but no evidence to pinpoint to who used it and a child is not in constant company of parents, this you seriously know to be true, so how can you prove they did, which is what you are missing.

Again this is a mock court here, the onus is on you to prove their involvement with the child stating they did not do it and it was relatives abroad

#

The first thing a defence lawyer has to do is check what the people he is defending are being charged with.

I am prosecuting and I am not charging the parents with procuring the procedure or carrying it out themselves.  I am accepting that it was done by people unknown at a time unknown with parental consent unknown.  I am charging the parents with failing to seek medical attention for a life threatening/changing injury that they could not be ignorant of.

heavenly father wrote:female genital mutilation happens, it is illegal, we need to clamp down on muslims who will not follow our laws it is that simple.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:female genital mutilation happens, it is illegal, we need to clamp down on muslims who will not follow our laws it is that simple.

I agree we do need to, that is not up for debate, what is though is how to prosecute this, which Sphinx thinks with no legal expertise is a piece of cake. I am no expert but understand how difficult it is, hence why the law needs to be changed  

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I agree we do need to, that is not up for debate, what is though is how to prosecute this, which Sphinx thinks with no legal expertise is a piece of cake. I am no expert but understand how difficult it is, hence why the law needs to be changed  

we could start by making it quite clear islam is not above our law and ensure anyone caught is dealt with very severely...

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:
#

The first thing a defence lawyer has to do is check what the people he is defending are being charged with.

I am prosecuting and I am not charging the parents with procuring the procedure or carrying it out themselves.  I am accepting that it was done by people unknown at a time unknown with parental consent unknown.  I am charging the parents with failing to seek medical attention for a life threatening/changing injury that they could not be ignorant of.

Again the child informs the court the parents were not aware this had happened she was afraid and embarrassed to tell them of this happening whilst she was away.

Again onus, you need to prove they even knew this had been performed on the child

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:

No Heavenly Father was the original title of the male half of the pair claiming to be Christian on sky - the female half was originally Vicar of Dibley.

They both went through several other names on the various forums including the male half calling himself God is Good (GiG)

Thank you Sphinx, because after the things he did, I'd fan the flames if he was on fire and laugh.   So he is going on ignore permanently.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Again the child informs the court the parents were not aware this had happened she was afraid and embarrassed to tell them of this happening whilst she was away.

Again onus, you need to prove they even knew this had been performed on the child

I need to prove it to a jury - I have presented a solid enough case for it to be bought to trial.

heavenly father wrote:a case of female genital mutilation would never get to court because:
A  the girl would be terrified and never do it.
B by the time she had spoken to anyone who could do anything about it her family would do the honourable thing and kill her.
C she would probably assume it was perfectly normal and do nothing about it.

I'm sure there are many more reasons everyone else can come up with the show it will continue for as long as islam stays out of control.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:a case of female genital mutilation would never get to court because:
A  the girl would be terrified and never do it.
B by the time she had spoken to anyone who could do anything about it her family would do the honourable thing and kill her.
C she would probably assume it was perfectly normal and do nothing about it.

I'm sure there are many more reasons everyone else can come up with the show it will continue for as long as islam stays out of control.

Absurd arguments, Islam again, your logic is very warped on this issue.
Things will change and are changing with more nations banning the practice, again more needs to be done, you are a defeatist, not a realist and it will be only a matter of time before they finally convict someone. So it is a case of when they will not if they will.

My view is all such nations where it still happen should have checks for young girls who Uk resident to have a screening before passing customs back into the UK, and as the practice will have happened recently whilst they were away the mutilation would be fresh, thus east to spot or to learn how to spot

Bye for now

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Absurd arguments, Islam again, your logic is very warped on this issue.
Things will change and are changing with more nations banning the practice, again more needs to be done, you are a defeatist, not a realist and it will be only a matter of time before they finally convict someone. So it is a case of when they will not if they will.

My view is all such nations where it still happen should have checks for young girls who Uk resident to have a screening before passing customs back into the UK, and as the practice will have happened recently whilst they were away the mutilation would be fresh, thus east to spot or to learn how to spot

Bye for now

Well there you go, Phildidge has declared my arguement absurd, no point debating it further, he must be right.   

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I need to prove it to a jury - I have presented a solid enough case for it to be bought to trial.

Yes it is down to a jury, and the main witness the child, has testified against your claims and without actual evidence of proof linking them to the clinic, the doctor or countless of other things, then you would have no case, which if you had bothered to read the link I sent you on this then you would then understand. You would be reliant on hardly any real evidence, all you have is the mutilation, and all others have closed ranks including the child, of which again you would have to prove the child is lying. You see Sphinx it is not as easy as you think and also you are reliant on emotive views and not evidence to swing the Jury, which would bring about a conviction. If you can find countless cases solely won and not overturned in appeal with just emotive arguments being used with little evidence that has swung the Jury on emotive views alone ? .

Again I think the law needs to change, I think we should have checks for people who are residents of the UK, when they leave to nations with high FGM be checked at customs, this would be the best way to catch them in the act would it not?
Be expensive mind to detain so many UK residents they fly back and forth between these nations, but would be worth it  

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Yes it is down to a jury, and the main witness the child, has testified against your claims and without actual evidence of proof linking them to the clinic, the doctor or countless of other things, then you would have no case, which if you had bothered to read the link I sent you on this then you would then understand. You would be reliant on hardly any real evidence, all you have is the mutilation, and all others have closed ranks including the child, of which again you would have to prove the child is lying. You see Sphinx it is not as easy as you think and also you are reliant on emotive views and not evidence to swing the Jury, which would bring about a conviction. If you can find countless cases solely won and not overturned in appeal with just emotive arguments being used with little evidence that has swung the Jury on emotive views alone ? .

Again I think the law needs to change, I think we should have checks for people who are residents of the UK, when they leave to nations with high FGM be checked at customs, this would be the best way to catch them in the act would it not?
Be expensive mind to detain so many UK residents they fly back and forth between these nations, but would be worth it  

No didge - the problem was to get the case to trial - the opposing councils do not decide the outcome  against one another they just have to show the case can be taken to trial.  Read back and you will see repeatedly my issue is that there has not been a single case bought to trial.
Incorrect sufficient evidence is required to proceed with a trial  

You are still not even defending against the charges bought - you are still defending under FGM law and I am not using that.  I am using the failure to seek medical attention so as defence you have to persuade 12 people that a girl can be seriously mutilated and her parents remain oblivious.
All you have is the smoking gun, you have no concept of criminal law either, I have shown the main witness, the person who the crime was committed on has made your claims in conflict, being as she is the only witness. So you are saying the Jury is going to think that her testimony, even though she is the victim will be a lie? Even though you have no witnesses or evidence to point to their guilt apart from an association to the child being the parents. In fact with  this example I have every reason to believe that if you could not counter the victims testimony, your case would be thrown out  

As for the child - you are busy imagining she has turned against me because that would make your case easier if you want to pretend that fine.  It does not affect my case.
Emotive response yet again, I am playing devil's advocate her showing you why it is so difficult to charge people with this, you then think no child would not go back on what they said? Even then you never stated the child was your witness, I said present your case, hence your screw up

I will present evidence the girl has been mutilated.
No problem
I will present expert medical evidence on the effect of that mutilation immediately after it is done including blood loss, pain etc, and likely healing time if there are no complications.
Great, when was she last checked for a medical exam? Is it also possible the mutilation can be reopened at a later date?
I will present evidence that the girl has not been outside of her parents care for any period of care longer than a weekend. (statements from neighbours, schools, clubs, local shops)
So you have evidence the child did not once leave the parents side for every day since her last medical exam showing she had no mutilation?Cannot wait to see that.
I will present evidence that the only time the girl was outside of the country was for 2 weeks when she was accompanied by her parents.
As seen they travelled together but the child was sating with family whilst they had a holiday for themselves The defnce will prove further flight tickets with their names on and written testimonies of the child being out of the country even though you have just as much admitted she was
I will present evidence that during that 2 weeks the parents had contact with her at least once every day (using their own family photographs which will have been seized under a properly executed search warrant)
I would love to see that evdence after the fact you have no witnesses that know this family, they hold the aces here, and as only Photo's have the parents in them, it backs their claim they were no where with the child
I will present evidence that the child was never taken to a doctor for treatment for FGM.
The child states clearly she did not inform the parents through the reasons already provided. She also backs up the view the parents were unaware that this had happened, she is the main witness, your case just fell apart

I will then contend to the jury that no child could undergo the procedure without suffering severe distress and pain that would last longer than 3 days.  I will contend no parent could fail to notice such a state of distress and pain in their child.  I will state that having noticed the pain and distress the parents had a legal duty to seek medical attention which they failed to do.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

No didge - the problem was to get the case to trial - the opposing councils do not decide the outcome  against one another they just have to show the case can be taken to trial.  Read back and you will see repeatedly my issue is that there has not been a single case bought to trial.
Incorrect sufficient evidence is required to proceed with a trial  

You are still not even defending against the charges bought - you are still defending under FGM law and I am not using that.  I am using the failure to seek medical attention so as defence you have to persuade 12 people that a girl can be seriously mutilated and her parents remain oblivious.
All you have is the smoking gun, you have no concept of criminal law either, I have shown the main witness, the person who the crime was committed on has made your claims in conflict, being as she is the only witness. So you are saying the Jury is going to think that her testimony, even though she is the victim will be a lie? Even though you have no witnesses or evidence to point to their guilt apart from an association to the child being the parents. In fact with  this example I have every reason to believe that if you could not counter the victims testimony, your case would be thrown out  

As for the child - you are busy imagining she has turned against me because that would make your case easier if you want to pretend that fine.  It does not affect my case.
Emotive response yet again, I am playing devil's advocate her showing you why it is so difficult to charge people with this, you then think no child would not go back on what they said? Even then you never stated the child was your witness, I said present your case, hence your screw up

I will present evidence the girl has been mutilated.
No problem
I will present expert medical evidence on the effect of that mutilation immediately after it is done including blood loss, pain etc, and likely healing time if there are no complications.
Great, when was she last checked for a medical exam? Is it also possible the mutilation can be reopened at a later date?
I will present evidence that the girl has not been outside of her parents care for any period of care longer than a weekend. (statements from neighbours, schools, clubs, local shops)
So you have evidence the child did not once leave the parents side for every day since her last medical exam showing she had no mutilation?Cannot wait to see that.
I will present evidence that the only time the girl was outside of the country was for 2 weeks when she was accompanied by her parents.
As seen they travelled together but the child was sating with family whilst they had a holiday for themselves The defnce will prove further flight tickets with their names on and written testimonies of the child being out of the country even though you have just as much admitted she was
I will present evidence that during that 2 weeks the parents had contact with her at least once every day (using their own family photographs which will have been seized under a properly executed search warrant)
I would love to see that evdence after the fact you have no witnesses that know this family, they hold the aces here, and as only Photo's have the parents in them, it backs their claim they were no where with the child
I will present evidence that the child was never taken to a doctor for treatment for FGM.
The child states clearly she did not inform the parents through the reasons already provided. She also backs up the view the parents were unaware that this had happened, she is the main witness, your case just fell apart

I will then contend to the jury that no child could undergo the procedure without suffering severe distress and pain that would last longer than 3 days.  I will contend no parent could fail to notice such a state of distress and pain in their child.  I will state that having noticed the pain and distress the parents had a legal duty to seek medical attention which they failed to do.

You just set the parents free!

PhilDidge wrote:I will answer this fully when back either later or tomorrow. What you fail to understand is the evidence you claim to have in this hypothetical case is not forth coming in any of the cases, you really went overboard with that amount of balderdash sphinx and it showed because you were more interested in proving me wrong than whether understanding how difficult it is to prosecute.

I am interested to know who you obtained your evidence, because the reality is most of what you claim you would not have

Oh, I now have the written testimony and the paperwork of the who carried out the mutilation, which has the Grand parents names as guardians whilst the parents were on holiday and who approved the treatment. The Grand Father also has written stating the parents knew nothing of this and it was his wife that set this all up. I can go on and on adding more here to the defense case, you have assumptions and nobody can trace a child's where about daily over months an claim they were always with the parents, that is absurd

Again my view is the law needs to change and place a better view to check all uk residents being checked if girls from these countries that still practice FGM, you then have traceability

See ya    .

PhilDidge wrote:I will answer this fully when back either later or tomorrow. What you fail to understand is the evidence you claim to have in this hypothetical case is not forth coming in any of the cases, you really went overboard with that amount of balderdash sphinx and it showed because you were more interested in proving me wrong than whether understanding how difficult it is to prosecute.

I am interested to know who you obtained your evidence, because the reality is most of what you claim you would not have

Oh, I now have the written testimony and the paperwork of the who carried out the mutilation, which has the Grand parents names as guardians whilst the parents were on holiday and who approved the treatment. The Grand Father also has written stating the parents knew nothing of this and it was his wife that set this all up. I can go on and on adding more here to the defense case, you have assumptions and nobody can trace a child's where about daily over months an claim they were always with the parents, that is absurd

Again my view is the law needs to change and place a better view to check all uk residents being checked if girls from these countries that still practice FGM, you then have traceability

See ya    .

Sassy wrote:Am I right, is Heavenly Father that disgusting piece of dog turd Gig?   If so, he's going on ignore immediately.   If he isn't, apologies to him for associating him with such a complete low life.

Clarkson wrote:

Sassy wrote:Am I right, is Heavenly Father that disgusting piece of dog turd Gig?   If so, he's going on ignore immediately.   If he isn't, apologies to him for associating him with such a complete low life.

Who is Gig???

Another person perchance you have shafted?

You seem to have an awful lot of enemies Sassy. You really must stop knifing others in the back its just not cricket you old bag.