British Babies Killed For Being Girls

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:


Our law is more robust than Frances and covers areas the French law does not - the French prosecutors say they would have far more prosecutions and successful ones at that if they had the UK law.

I am not talking outcomes here didge I am talking about the fact that not one single case has been even attempted.

The Bill Roach case is for show - it was 40 years ago and there is no evidence it is he said she said - and nobody knows what the jury are going to do least of all the CPS.  
There are cases of FGM reported to the police with far more solid evidence - like a doctor confirming a girl has had her clitoris removed along with pictures no doubt.
It is illegal to perform this.
It is illegal to go out of the country and allow this to be performed.
It is illegal for a parent to fail to seek medical attention for a child where illness or injury are life threatening or life effecting.

So you have a girl under the age of 15 with mutilated genitals - at the very least that is a charge of failing to seek medical attention.

Yet not one single attempted prosecution.

You just repeated yourself showing again you do not understand the limitations of the law where again I have stated the law needs to change have I not on this same argument where you are repeating things you do not understand. You are dragging out old points already explained to you

Again how many people in France have suffered FGM

You are also wrong as there are 5 cases pending on FGM in this country

ALLAKAKA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


You just repeated yourself showing again you do not understand the limitations of the law where again I have stated the law needs to change have I not on this same argument where you are repeating things you do not understand. You are dragging out old points already explained to you

Again how many people in France have suffered FGM

You are also wrong as there are 5 cases pending on FGM in this country

You don't get far with ALLAH.




    

heavenly father wrote:@didge, the fact you think both are morally wrong is somewhat irrelevant, the fact remains female genital mutilation is illegal and yet so openly occurs, in the same way that young muslim women are aborting their own babies if they are girls, they know they have no defence from our laws as their religious laws are what bind them.
by the way i must have missed your answer on what grounds female genital mutilation is used if not religious!!

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


You just repeated yourself showing again you do not understand the limitations of the law where again I have stated the law needs to change have I not on this same argument where you are repeating things you do not understand. You are dragging out old points already explained to you

Again how many people in France have suffered FGM

You are also wrong as there are 5 cases pending on FGM in this country

Pending?  Really?

Carry on buying into the nice illusion if it helps you sleep at night.

The law is already robust enough.

What is not robust is our use of it.

What exactly do you think needs changing?  What is more is needed?

heavenly father wrote:@ didge, don't tell me you think the 5 pending is the some total. please!!!

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Pending?  Really?

Carry on buying into the nice illusion if it helps you sleep at night.

The law is already robust enough.

What is not robust is our use of it.

What exactly do you think needs changing?  What is more is needed?

As usual you get it wrong again

http://www.duncanlewis.co.uk/family_news/Prosecution_for_Female_Genital_Mutilation_of_baby_girl_pending_(18_November_2013).html


Your understanding of criminal law is appalling also, glad i would never have you defending anyone, they would lose

Your emotive responses are also pathetic

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


As usual you get it wrong again

http://www.duncanlewis.co.uk/family_news/Prosecution_for_Female_Genital_Mutilation_of_baby_girl_pending_(18_November_2013).html


Your understanding of criminal law is appalling also, glad i would never have you defending anyone, they would lose

Your emotive responses are also pathetic

So Mr expert are you going to tell us how the law you are so expert on needs to change?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:@ didge, don't tell me you think the 5 pending is the some total. please!!!

No what I think is at last we are starting to act.

Sphinx's argument is some lane attempt to promote her political views basing that UKIP would do different, her argument has little care for the problem but political bullshit  

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


No what I think is at last we are starting to act.

Sphinx's argument is some lane attempt to promote her political views basing that UKIP would do different, her argument has little care for the problem but political bullshit  

I think it is nothing more than a token attempt to misdirect, until the British government show no acceptance of muslim religious laws and habits we will have problems wit female genital mutilation, honour killings and everything else it brings, we need leaders of a country with a spine..

BigAndy9 wrote:As I have said before - we don't know what UKIP would do.

We didn't know what the Conservatives would do - we do now, and it is NOTHING.

You claim you want to help these people (I think everybody does) so now you know what the Conservatives have done, what will you be doing?

Voting for another 5 years of nothing or letting another group try?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

I think it is nothing more than a token attempt to misdirect, until the British government show no acceptance of muslim religious laws and habits we will have problems wit female genital mutilation, honour killings and everything else it brings, we need leaders of a country with a spine..

FGM is not Islamic or religious

Christians and other faiths carry out this barbaric act:

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

So Mr expert are you going to tell us how the law you are so expert on needs to change?

May help if you understand the present law

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/female_genital_mutilation/

Never claimed to be an expert, I just detest when people use said arguments for political reason, they are pathetic, you really are a UKIP drone

ALLAKAKA wrote:


DEBATE with you ? LOL, While most posters on these Forums are individuals and post their personal views , opinions and personal observations all this IRL . I think that posters are becoming aware of your CRUSADE on forums ,but as yet not fully aware of the extent.

While you demand a simple YES or NO answer for others ,so as to pin them down , you carefully avoid giving yes or no answers and are VERY selective in the posts you reply to.



This Ignored post proves the point.

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


FGM is not Islamic or religious

Christians and other faiths carry out this barbaric act:

really, i'm sure you have sources, who do we seem to have the problem with in this country?

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


May help if you understand the present law

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/female_genital_mutilation/

Never claimed to be an expert, I just detest when people use said arguments for political reason, they are pathetic, you really are a UKIP drone

Again you have stated the law needs to change - so please tell us how it has to change.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Again you have stated the law needs to change - so please tell us how it has to change.

Well as I have done this before would you like the link to the other thread where i said what to do, or do you suffer from memory issues?

Did I say about medical professional informing the Police when they notice a change has happened to a girl, where after being abroad or not. do you remember me saying this?
Do you want me to thus go over old ground again?

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Again you have stated the law needs to change - so please tell us how it has to change.

Well as I have done this before would you like the link to the other thread where i said what to do, or do you suffer from memory issues?

Did I say about medical professional informing the Police when they notice a change has happened to a girl, where after being abroad, do you remember me saying this?
Do you want me to thus go over old ground again?

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Well as I have done this before would you like the link to the other thread where i said what to do, or do you suffer from memory issues?

Did I say about medical professional informing the Police when they notice a change has happened to a girl, where after being abroad, do you remember me saying this?
Do you want me to thus go over old ground again?

Thats a red herring if ever I saw one.  Medical professionals are going to be the last to notice a change after a child has been abroad especially if she has been mutilated because she will be kept away from medical professionals
(please note this is already a crime)


The professionals most likely to notice changes are teachers especially PE teachers and the law already covers that with teachers allowed or even encouraged to report suspicions at which point the child will be medically examined with the results being already exempt from confidentiality for law.

So again how does the law need to change to ensure prosecution of all the hundreds of cases already being reported to authorities.

ALLAKAKA wrote:

GP's struck off for failing to note this in medical records ?

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:


Thats a red herring if ever I saw one.  Medical professionals are going to be the last to notice a change after a child has been abroad especially if she has been mutilated because she will be kept away from medical professionals
(please note this is already a crime)


The professionals most likely to notice changes are teachers especially PE teachers and the law already covers that with teachers allowed or even encouraged to report suspicions at which point the child will be medically examined with the results being already exempt from confidentiality for law.

So again how does the law need to change to ensure prosecution of all the hundreds of cases already being reported to authorities.

Which is what I said the law needs to change DOH and medical professionals are going to notice of which does happen a girl with complications will they not?
That was absurd to say teachers would, I never knew they were experts with complications if a girl complains of pain urinating for example, you talk some real crap  at times  

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Which is what I said the law needs to change DOH and medical professionals are going to notice of which does happen a girl with complications will they not?
That was absurd to say teachers would, I never knew they were experts with complications if a girl complains of pain urinating for example, you talk some real crap  at times  

Nothing I said involved a law change.

Mutilated girls will be kept away from doctors - which is illegal in itself.
Other professionals may already report suspicions resulting in a medical examination - that is already law so does not need changing.
Absurd accusation, again complications arise from this practice and they will need to seek medical attention, hence why numbers are very well known, or did that part escape your attention?

As for teachers - where do you think most reports come from?  It is not just the complications - it is teachers noticing girls fearful before anything happens, and behavioural changes afterwards without any "complications".  I mean shockingly our government is currently cutting the funding providing teachers with training and guidelines in spotting the problems -but the fact is teachers do notice and do report and can report.
Yes most reports come from medical sources

You have shown no argument that without a law changes prosecutions cannot happen.  

nicko wrote:just clear up what didge said about me"buying of bullies"  your a bit mixed up there son,it was dean who you were arguing with about buying of bullies.i suppose an apology is out of the queston?    by the way, posters would respect you more if you admitted you were wrong once in a while.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Which is what I said the law needs to change DOH and medical professionals are going to notice of which does happen a girl with complications will they not?
That was absurd to say teachers would, I never knew they were experts with complications if a girl complains of pain urinating for example, you talk some real crap  at times  

Nothing I said involved a law change.

Mutilated girls will be kept away from doctors - which is illegal in itself.
Other professionals may already report suspicions resulting in a medical examination - that is already law so does not need changing.

As for teachers - where do you think most reports come from?  It is not just the complications - it is teachers noticing girls fearful before anything happens, and behavioural changes afterwards without any "complications".  I mean shockingly our government is currently cutting the funding providing teachers with training and guidelines in spotting the problems -but the fact is teachers do notice and do report and can report.

You have shown no argument that without a law changes prosecutions cannot happen.  

Sassy wrote:I'm for the mother having an abortion if that is what she wants and she has made up her own mind.   Normally when it is gender, the father or family are putting pressure on her, a different thing.  

I doubt many women would abort because of a cleft lip.  In the case of not being able to handle another baby, only the mother knows that and knows why she wouldn't be able to, be it too many children, depression or simply being at the wrong time in her life.

I would never have had an abortion, but that was my decision, I have no right to make another woman live by that rule, she is the one who has to look after the child and all the consequences that entails.

PhilDidge wrote:Before I go:




Intercollegiate Group draws up ground-breaking recommendations for tackling Female Genital Mutilation

A unique coalition of Royal Colleges, trade unions and Equality Now launches the report Tackling FGM in the UK: Intercollegiate recommendations for identifying, recording and reporting at the House of Commons today.  This ground-breaking report and collaboration recognises that implementing a comprehensive multi-agency action plan is urgently required to ensure that young girls at risk of undergoing Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) are protected by the existing UK legal framework (which has been in place since1985).

The report makes nine recommendations for tackling FGM in the UK and considers issues such as the lack of consistent data collection about FGM in the NHS. The recommendations suggest that babies, children and young girls suspected of going to be cut or presenting with FGM should be considered as potential victims of crime and referred to support services and the police, as appropriate.

The report recommendations include:

Treat FGM as Child Abuse: FGM is a severe form of violence against women and girls. It is child abuse and must be integrated into all UK child safeguarding procedures in a systematic way.
Implement an awareness campaign: The Government should implement a national FGM awareness campaign, similar to previous domestic abuse and HIV campaigns.
Hold frontline professionals accountable: The NHS and local authorities should systematically measure the performance of frontline health professionals against agreed standards for addressing FGM and publish outcomes to enable effective benchmarking.


Other recommendations include: documenting and collecting information regarding FGM and sharing this information systematically; identifying girls at risk and referring them as part of child safeguarding obligation; and reporting cases of FGM.

According the charity Forward, in 2007 in the United Kingdom 66,000 women in England and Wales are estimated to have undergone FGM and over 24,000 girls under 15 are potentially at risk of undergoing the practise. This is despite the fact that the UK has specific legislation, which has banned FGM since 1985. The law, updated in 2003 (2005 in Scotland) to include an extra-territorial clause (extending rights beyond borders), carries severe penalties and offenders face a prison sentence of up to 14 years.

In the report’s foreword Keir Starmer QC, Director of Public Prosecutions, said: “Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is a crime that affects some of the most vulnerable girls and women in our society. Through working together closely with the police, health and social care professionals and the third sector, we are now in a much better place to have a successful prosecution against those who perpetrate this practice. It is only a matter of time before this happens and this will send a very powerful message that FGM is a crime that will not be tolerated.

"This important publication sets out recommendations aimed at those professionals who are key to bringing about the changes needed in the UK to help eradicate FGM.”

Public Health Minister Jane Ellison, who is hosting the report launch, said: “One of my priorities as Public Health Minister is to work towards eradicating female genital mutilation. Having supported this report during its development, I welcome its publication and the lead that the organisations involved, representing so many healthcare workers, are showing.

“Female genital mutilation is illegal and we have to both safeguard girls from this form of child abuse and address the longer-term health needs of those girls and women living with FGM. We are already working actively with the Health and Social Care Information Centre to look at how best the NHS could collect and share data and I am working hard, with colleagues across Government, to protect future generations of girls from this abhorrent practice.”

The Intercollegiate group is made up of the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of Nursing, Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Unite/Community Practitioners and Health Visitors Association, and Equality Now. Other supporters of the project are the Royal College of General Practitioners; Royal College of Paediatricians and Child Health, Royal College of Psychiatrists and the charity Daughters of Eve, as well as FGM survivors.

Commenting on the report, the Royal College of Midwives Chief Executive Cathy Warwick said: “I am pleased that the Royal Colleges, trade unions, NGOs and survivors have come together to call for strategic and coordinated action to tackle FGM. We cannot expect communities or girls and young women tackle this issue by themselves. FGM robs girls of their childhood and it is an abuse of their human rights. This is why we must work collaboratively to ensure that these recommendations, aligned to current policy frameworks, are implemented and monitored. I applaud the coalition for its hard work.

“FGM is a violation of children and women’s human rights, and there is a real need to raise awareness about the damage that FGM can do to young girls and women within the communities that practise it. We as midwives must advocate for young girls and take a lead on protecting and safeguarding the current generation.”

Dr David Richmond, President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG), said: “FGM is violence against women and we must find ways to eradicate this harmful and unacceptable practice.  When it is done on girls, it is a form of child abuse with many long-term consequences.

“It is the duty of all healthcare professionals to identify the girls whom they believe are at-risk and to share such information in good faith with the local safeguarding networks so these girls can be monitored and protected by social services.  Such an approach follows the life-course model of health and social care that the RCOG advocates.”

Efua Dorkenoo, OBE, Advocacy Director of FGM Programme, Equality Now, said: “The UK is well on its way to developing a 'joined-up' response to FGM, which will ensure that existing prevention and prosecution measures are properly implemented in a coordinated way. Recent work by key agencies such as the Crown Prosecution Service and the Met Police has been encouraging. However, we need to re-double our efforts to ensure that the right systems are institutionalised, that the correct data is gathered and shared and that every front-line professional knows what action they need to take to ensure that girls at risk of undergoing FGM are fully protected from the moment they are born”.

Dr Deborah Hodes, Consultant Community Paediatrician from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, said: “Female genital mutilation has been illegal in the UK for more than 25 years. This report, which will be crucial in raising awareness of this issue within the medical profession and beyond, aims to end this form of violence against women and children forever.

“In the UK, there are women who come from countries where FGM is common. Many of their children, despite being born here, are at risk of having this procedure forced upon them.

“It is, therefore, crucial that all paediatricians have the confidence to talk to parents about the issue and the ability to recognise the signs and respond appropriately when the child is at risk.  They must also understand which children are most vulnerable.

“A vulnerable child could come into contact with a paediatrician for any reason and in any setting. This guidance will be invaluable in supporting all healthcare professionals to protect the child.”

The Royal College of Nursing’s Director of Nursing Janet Davies said: “All health and social care professionals have a responsibility to do all they can to identify and prevent this abuse. This important guidance makes it clear that nurses, midwives and doctors must work with the police, teachers and social services when they have concerns.

“These intercollegiate recommendations will help create systems that will work to identify and report suspected cases of at risk girls, or where this abuse may have taken place. This is a growing problem in the UK, and it requires different agencies working together to try to eradicate FGM.

“We know nursing and midwifery staff want to play their part in protecting these vulnerable girls and women, and when implemented these recommendations will be a step in the right direction.”

Lead Professional Officer for Unite/Community Practitioners’ and Health Visitors’ Association Obi Amadi said: “We are really pleased to have been partners in this important work. This is ‘joined up thinking’ and we are all committed to acting together on this issue. FGM devastates the lives of girls and young women and needs to be stopped. This is an important project for health visitors because they need to get good information from midwives about FGM. This project is also about safeguarding vulnerable children and information about FGM should be collected sensitively and as a routine practice.

"School nurses are with children during a key formative period in their lives and are advocates for children potentially impacted by FGM. An alert about FGM risk for a child should come with school handover. Above all, children should be listened to sensitively.”

The group also found that there are gaps in the responsiveness of the health and social care system in addressing FGM. There is minimal documentation of FGM in the health and social care system. There is no “joined up” work to support early identification of risks and a plan being put into place to support long-term prevention. Local and national child protection frameworks and healthcare professionals do not necessarily know how to go about identifying and referring girls who they suspect may be at risk to the appropriate agencies. Where girls are referred to social services, the issue may be dropped, as it is not deemed to meet the threshold for social service intervention.

In the absence of accountability on performance by local and health authorities on FGM, the system is failing girls at risk of FGM.  A comprehensive system needs to be put into place to support early identification of risks of FGM and prevention, as well as referrals and reporting to the police, says the report. It also calls for health and social care agencies, education and the police to integrate FGM prevention into national and local strategies to safeguard children from FGM abuse. The report also highlights the lack of consistent data collection in the NHS on FGM, and an unco-ordinated approach to sharing information across the health, social care and education sectors. By acting together, the Intercollegiate Group feels that the UK can work towards the elimination of FGM in future.

Two case studies will be available before and during the launch for interviews about their first person experience of FGM and views about the report. Please contact the RCM press office for further details.

http://www.rcog.org.uk/news/intercollegiate-group-draws-ground-breaking-recommendations-tackling-female-genital-mutilation

sphinx wrote:So what didge has come up with is a committee talking about changing things in professional bodies that has got fuck all to do with the law.

The GMC made it clear in 2010 guidelines that a doctor who broke confidentiality to report suspected child abuse would not be in any danger of professional sanctions.

The fact which you cannot escape from is that have been cases reported to the authorities for years, along with sufficient evidence but these cases were not bought to court and cases still not being bought to court.

As I have made clear if a child is found to mutilated then there is no excuse for not prosecuting for something even if it is failing to seek medical attention.

sphinx wrote:Simple.

Female aged 15 born and resided in UK whole life.
Has documented FGM after medical examination triggered by teacher reporting suspicions.
Has spent no significant time away from the care of her parents.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:Simple.

Female aged 15 born and resided in UK whole life.
Has documented FGM after medical examination triggered by teacher reporting suspicions.
Has spent no significant time away from the care of her parents.

The parents and the child state clearly she has spent time away, they offer witness evidence and plane tickets to prove she has gone on holiday to stay with family

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


The parents and the child state clearly she has spent time away, they offer witness evidence and plane tickets to prove she has gone on holiday to stay with family

And I already said the child has spent no significant time away from the care of her parents - so that is not the case.

heavenly father wrote:it's illegal it still happens, it shows that the muslims follow their own backward laws and disregard ours, all this stems from the weak kneed way we have dealt with them from the off.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:it's illegal it still happens, it shows that the muslims follow their own backward laws and disregard ours, all this stems from the weak kneed way we have dealt with them from the off.

Again it is not just some Muslims that do this, so you are on the wrong track again.

Sphinx even pointed this out to you, again so by your logic Christians that do this follow their own backward laws?

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Again it is not just some Muslims that do this, so you are on the wrong track again.

Sphinx even pointed this out to you, again so by your logic Christians that do this follow their own backward laws?

what Christians do it? what Christians force their daughters through fear in to aborting baby girls?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

what Christians do it? what Christians force their daughters through fear in to aborting baby girls?

They do in Africa, try Egypt for starters as well as others

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


They do in Africa, try Egypt for starters as well as others

and your point is?

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

And I already said the child has spent no significant time away from the care of her parents - so that is not the case.

The child has stated she did, what now?

How can you prove she has not?

What time frame do you have for when she was not mutilated till when she was?
6 months, 2 years etc?

This you never said, you would have to prove this in a very short time frame, again you would have to prove they never left when they have evidence that she did

As I said this is why it is so difficult

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


The child has stated she did, what now?

How can you prove she has not?

What time frame do you have for when she was not mutilated till when she was?
6 months, 2 years etc?

This you never said, you would have to prove this in a very short time frame, again you would have to prove they never left when they have evidence that she did

As I said this is why it is so difficult

You told me it was difficult and asked me to present a case - I presented it and now you are trying to change it.

So 15 year old girl born in the UK and resided in UK since birth.

Teacher raises suspicions and she is examined and it is found she has been mutilated.

She has never been outside of her parents care for a significant amount of time.

When she was mutilated is irrelevant.  It is illegal.

Where she was mutilated is irrelevant.  It is illegal.

The parents can and should be charged with failing to seek medical attention for a life threatening/changing injury.  There is no other evidence required to take this to trial.