Shooting and stabbing at Westminster.

by Syl Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Up to 12 people reportedly injured or dead.

News is still breaking.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/man-shot-police-outside-parliament-officer-reportedly-shoots/

by eddie Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Doesn't surprise me eddie...

That's what they are really like!!!

That's what radicalised people are like, idiots and ignorant people.
Ordinary Muslims are appalled. I wish you'd be clear.

by eddie Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:35 pm

Jules wrote:
eddie wrote:
Jules wrote:Masood the evil fiend got radicalised in prison. He came out a changed man. Sort out the prisons urgently!!

On LBC talk radio yesterday, there were quite a few prison officers ringing in saying that when the news broke of the twrroist act, the Muslim prisoners went into high celebrations and cheering.
That wasn't on the main news though.
Poor form. But it doesn't surprise me. They are in prison for a reason. A far cry from the reaction of ordinary London Muslims who were of course appalled.

Of course. There has been money raised by local Muslims (see thread Uk news) and I think that's a wonderful message to all the radicals.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:43 pm

Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Qur’an 9:31—They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ, the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Qur’an 9:32—Fain would they extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

Qur’an 9:33—It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to prevail it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them.

Qur’an 9:111—Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain.

Qur’an 9:123—O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.

Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost.

Qur’an 48:29—Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

Sunan An-Nasa’i 3099—The Prophet said: “Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

Sunan Ibn Majah 2763—The Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with a deficiency.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “If anyone changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Qur’an 6:114—Shall I seek for a judge other than Allah, when He it is Who has sent down to you the Book fully explained?

Qur’an 11:1—This is a Book, whose verses have been made firm and free from imperfection and then they have been expounded in detail.

Qur’an 12:1—These are verses of the clear Book.

Qur’an 16:89—And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things ...

Qur’an 27:1—These are verses of the Qur'an—a book that makes (things) clear.

Qur’an 41:3—A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail ...

Qur’an 57:9—He it is who sends down clear communications upon His servant, that he may bring you forth from utter darkness into light.

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.

by eddie Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:00 pm

What a waste of your time. I have no interest in reading someone else's words, I replied to you so that I could hear yours.
Offer me something else.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Muslims follow the koran... this tells them to fight unbelievers...

by eddie Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Muslims follow the koran... this tells them to fight unbelievers...

Well it's not all of them, is it?

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Muslims follow the koran... this tells them to fight unbelievers...

So why is not every Muslim fighting Non-Believers?

Why over 1400 years has not every Muslim fought Non-Believers?

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:31 pm

Also Tommy, the bible says to kill homosexuals, adulterers and children that disobey their parents.

Why are many Christians and Jews not doing this?

by eddie Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:32 pm

Thorin wrote:Also Tommy, the bible says to kill homosexuals, adulterers and children that disobey their parents.

Why are many Christians and Jews not doing this?

Exactly.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:33 pm

Some are doing the violence... some are organising and planning the violence... the rest of them are covering up for them and telling everyone the lie that it's nothing to do with islam...

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:33 pm

I think it depends on how literally one takes the Koran or the Bible.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:35 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Some are doing the violence... some are organising and planning the violence... the rest of them are covering up for them and telling everyone the lie that it's nothing to do with islam...

So if the rest are covering up for them, why then do some inform the authorities of potential terrorists?

So why does for example Muslim like Maajid Nawaz say it has got to do with Islamic doctrines?

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I think it depends on how literally one takes the Koran or the Bible.

So most people do not take their religion literally then Rags, correct?

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:37 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I think it depends on how literally one takes the Koran or the Bible.

So most people do not take their religion literally then Rags, correct?

I daresay you're going to start talking about "cherry picking", but I think a lot of religious people don't take the written word of the Koran or Bible literally. I don't know about "most" - probably that's the case.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:40 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So most people do not take their religion literally then Rags, correct?

I daresay you're going to start talking about "cherry picking", but I think a lot of religious people don't take the written word of the Koran or Bible literally. I don't know about "most" - probably that's the case.

I agree that lots of Muslims, Christians and Jews do not take literally the word of the Quran, Bible or Torah. Which renders them hypocritical, as its viewed as the word of God or inspired word of God.
So not going to cherry pick at all. The problem is though that within Islam, there is a substantial minority amount of Muslims that do take Islam literally based on the school of thought they follow.

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:43 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I daresay you're going to start talking about "cherry picking", but I think a lot of religious people don't take the written word of the Koran or Bible literally. I don't know about "most" - probably that's the case.

I agree that lots of Muslims, Christians and Jews do not take literally the word of the Quran, Bible or Torah. Which renders them hypocritical, as its viewed as the word of God or inspired word of God.
So not going to cherry pick at all. The problem is though that within Islam, there is a substantial minority amount of Muslims that do take Islam literally based on the school of thought they follow.

Oh, I see - you've chosen to use the word "hypocritical" rather than the phrase "cherry picking". I disagree they're being hypocritical - they're just using their common sense and their own consciences.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:48 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

I agree that lots of Muslims, Christians and Jews do not take literally the word of the Quran, Bible or Torah. Which renders them hypocritical, as its viewed as the word of God or inspired word of God.
So not going to cherry pick at all. The problem is though that within Islam, there is a substantial minority amount of Muslims that do take Islam literally based on the school of thought they follow.

Oh, I see - you've chosen to use the word "hypocritical" rather than the phrase "cherry picking". I disagree they're being hypocritical - they're just using their common sense and their own consciences.

Sop you think believers cherry picking verses over what they follow is not hypocritical?

How do they decide what God commanded or not through the belief he did make commands?

Take your time

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:50 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh, I see - you've chosen to use the word "hypocritical" rather than the phrase "cherry picking". I disagree they're being hypocritical - they're just using their common sense and their own consciences.

Sop you think believers cherry picking verses over what they follow is not hypocritical?

How do they decide what God commanded or not through the belief he did make commands?

Take your time

No I don't. See? I didn't need to take my time.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Sop you think believers cherry picking verses over what they follow is not hypocritical?

How do they decide what God commanded or not through the belief he did make commands?

Take your time

No I don't. See? I didn't need to take my time.

So do you take the word of the bible as the word of god or inspired?

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:57 pm

Thorin wrote:Also Tommy, the bible says to kill homosexuals, adulterers and children that disobey their parents.

Why are many Christians and Jews not doing this?

Does it...?

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:Also Tommy, the bible says to kill homosexuals, adulterers and children that disobey their parents.

Why are many Christians and Jews not doing this?

Does it...?

Yes the Bible does Tommy

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:59 pm

The Christian bible?

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
The Christian bible?

Yes

by Original Quill Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Liviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

Liviticus 20:1q: “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

Deuteronomy 21:18–21: "And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."

--Judeo-Christian Bible

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:12 pm

Old testament.

And Muslims believe that the koran is perfect in every way...

And it is Muslims who are driving vehicles into crowds of people and setting off bombs etc...

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:Liviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

Liviticus 20:1q: “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

Deuteronomy 21:18–21: "And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."

--Judeo-Christian Bible

+1

You forgot

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deut 21.18%E2%80%9321]Deuteronomy 21:18–21[/url])

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Old testament.

And Muslims believe that the koran is perfect in every way...

And it is Muslims who are driving vehicles into crowds of people and setting off bombs etc...

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:16 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Old testament.

And Muslims believe that the koran is perfect in every way...

And it is Muslims who are driving vehicles into crowds of people and setting off bombs etc...

So why is the Old Testament in the Bible Tommy?

So do many Christians believe the Bible is perfect in every way

What i am showing is for 2500 years religion has been at the fore front to excuse violence.

Some Muslims today are more than anyone committing violence.

You cast all of them, hence why you have been rightly ridiculed.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:26 pm

They all follow the koran and believe it is perfect in every way.

The koran tells them to fight unbelievers and strike terror into their hearts etc..

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:They all follow the koran and believe it is perfect in every way.

The koran tells them to fight unbelievers and strike terror into their hearts etc..

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

So again, why are not all 1.5 billion Muslims fighting Non-Muslims at this very moment?

So you really have no issue with the majority of Muslims then, as you see them as not proper Muslims?

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Old testament.

And Muslims believe that the koran is perfect in every way...

And it is Muslims who are driving vehicles into crowds of people and setting off bombs etc...

So why is the Old Testament in the Bible Tommy?

So do many Christians believe the Bible is perfect in every way

What i am showing is for 2500 years religion has been at the fore front to excuse violence.

Some Muslims today are more than anyone committing violence.

You cast all of them, hence why you have been rightly ridiculed.

To give context to the New Testament.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:37 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So why is the Old Testament in the Bible Tommy?

So do many Christians believe the Bible is perfect in every way

What i am showing is for 2500 years religion has been at the fore front to excuse violence.

Some Muslims today are more than anyone committing violence.

You cast all of them, hence why you have been rightly ridiculed.

To give context to the New Testament.

How do you judge what is relevant or not the word of God, based on christian belief?

by Original Quill Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:39 pm

Thorin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Liviticus 20:13: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

Liviticus 20:1q: “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

Deuteronomy 21:18–21: "And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear."

--Judeo-Christian Bible

+1

You forgot

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deut 21.18%E2%80%9321]Deuteronomy 21:18–21[/url])

Nup, just shortened it. Compare passage in blue.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So why is the Old Testament in the Bible Tommy?

So do many Christians believe the Bible is perfect in every way

What i am showing is for 2500 years religion has been at the fore front to excuse violence.

Some Muslims today are more than anyone committing violence.

You cast all of them, hence why you have been rightly ridiculed.

To give context to the New Testament.

Context is content. It's all one book, with several parts.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Thorin wrote:

+1

You forgot

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deut 21.18%E2%80%9321]Deuteronomy 21:18–21[/url])

Nup, just shortened it. Compare passage in blue.

Point taken Quill

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

To give context to the New Testament.

Context is content. It's all one book, with several parts.

Only because someone decided it should be one book.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Context is content. It's all one book, with several parts.

Only because someone decided it should be one book.

Who decides?

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:05 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Only because someone decided it should be one book.

Who decides?

Whoever decided. I presume one can buy the New Testament only.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:06 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Who decides?

Whoever decided. I presume one can buy the New Testament only.

Did Jesus ignore the Old Testament or more factually the Torah?

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:08 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Whoever decided. I presume one can buy the New Testament only.

Did Jesus ignore the Old Testament or more factually the Torah?

He had some different ideas to what was in the Old Testament, but he didn't ignore it. That's what I mean - the Old Testament gives the New Testament context.

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Did Jesus ignore the Old Testament or more factually the Torah?

He had some different ideas to what was in the Old Testament, but he didn't ignore it. That's what I mean - the Old Testament gives the New Testament context.

He said he did not come to change the law did he not?

by Raggamuffin Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:20 pm

Thorin wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

He had some different ideas to what was in the Old Testament, but he didn't ignore it. That's what I mean - the Old Testament gives the New Testament context.

He said he did not come to change the law did he not?

The law of the Prophets, yes, and he also asked people why they didn't judge for themselves what is right.

Christianity is based on who Jesus is, what he said, and what happened to him. That's in the New Testament, not the old one.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:They all follow the koran and believe it is perfect in every way.

The koran tells them to fight unbelievers and strike terror into their hearts etc..

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

So again, why are not all 1.5 billion Muslims fighting Non-Muslims at this very moment?

So you really have no issue with the majority of Muslims then, as you see them as not proper Muslims?

Most of them live in Islamic countries full of Muslims... where they have already dominated...

But here...

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

by Guest Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So again, why are not all 1.5 billion Muslims fighting Non-Muslims at this very moment?

So you really have no issue with the majority of Muslims then, as you see them as not proper Muslims?

Most of them live in Islamic countries full of Muslims... where they have already dominated...

But here...

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

So how many out of the 1.5 billion are doing violence?

Why are Muslims by fare the victims of this?

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:09 pm

Some Muslims are doing the violence... some are helping them do the violence... and the others are helping cover it up and perpetuating the lies that it is nothing to do with islam, not proper Muslims, and islam is a religion of peace etc...

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:11 pm

Also... I was surprised to read that there were 50 or more people injured in this attack...!

Going by the TV news reports so far, I was under the impression that only about 10-12 people were injured...

by Syl Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Also... I was surprised to read that there were 50 or more people injured in this attack...!

Going by the TV news reports so far, I was under the impression that only about 10-12 people were injured...

I wasn't surprised. I saw a YouTube of someone walking along the bridge minutes after the car had driven into people there. It seemed lots of people were badly injured, on the pavement and in the road, lying where they had been hit. Some of the people tending them were injured themselves. The shot of the mother under the bus with just her legs visible.... I cant forget it.
All in all it looked like a bomb had gone off in that area.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:46 pm

Yes... but what I'm saying is the news reports have been very low numbers given for injured...

by nicko Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:59 pm

Is there any money being donated to the other dead and wounded?

by veya_victaous Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:19 am

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