Do black lives or any one elses lives mean as much as yours does?

by blackie333 Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

No they don't really.
Self preservation is the name of the game and anyone suggesting otherwise is living a lie. tongue

by veya_victaous Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:06 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

OUR OWN "Kind", you reckon blackie ???

YOU certainly wouldn't want to be a doctor, nurse, police officer, fireman, ambulance officer, first aider or a rescue/emergency volunteer, with those kind of attitudes..

WHAT ABOUT those of us who have more than one ethnic group in our family lineage; and/or friends, school/college/work mates, neighbours ?

THAT person that you go out of your way to avoid because you're scared of their skin tones, might have been my cousin or uncle or an old friend..

IF you met me after I'd had even a few days out in the sun, you might well not know which way to duck !

So you don't think that black people talk about their "own kind"? You need to do more research.

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

by Raggamuffin Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:59 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So you don't think that black people talk about their "own kind"? You need to do more research.

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

Blackie isn't black. I was talking about black people talking about their "own kind", not white people. You just had to change the subject didn't you?

Actually, it's really an impression I get from the internet that a lot of black people do talk about their "own kind". I hope it doesn't apply to everyone because that would be really said. I'd be a bit bewildered if a black person didn't want to talk to me because I'm white or thought they couldn't possibly have anything in common with me because of the colour of my skin.

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:11 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So you don't think that black people talk about their "own kind"? You need to do more research.

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

I wasn't even thinking about our colour, I meant in general that we all love ourselves far more than we love anyone else and that's true of most of us.
If I was spilling my blood next to you on the battlefield and someone came along with a needle and a bag of blood we both wanted and needed desperately I'd fight you for it Laughing

by Guest Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:14 am

blackie333 wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

I wasn't even thinking about our colour, I meant in general that we all love ourselves far more than we love anyone else and that's true of most of us.
If I was spilling my blood next to you on the battlefield and someone came along with a needle and a bag of blood we both wanted and needed desperately I'd fight you for it

I think that's called hoisted by your own petard Blacktie, because the guy bringing the blood would be laying down his life to try and save yours.

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:25 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

OUR OWN "Kind", you reckon blackie ???

YOU certainly wouldn't want to be a doctor, nurse, police officer, fireman, ambulance officer, first aider or a rescue/emergency volunteer, with those kind of attitudes..

WHAT ABOUT those of us who have more than one ethnic group in our family lineage; and/or friends, school/college/work mates, neighbours ?

THAT person that you go out of your way to avoid because you're scared of their skin tones, might have been my cousin or uncle or an old friend..

IF you met me after I'd had even a few days out in the sun, you might well not know which way to duck !

By our own I meant that id be drawn to help the white person first if both of the injured seemed to have the same injuries.
I'd still help the other victim though whatever colour or nationality.
I just like us to be honest about our differences and yes we have many that most try to avoid speaking about!

by Guest Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:28 am

blackie333 wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

OUR OWN "Kind", you reckon blackie ???

YOU certainly wouldn't want to be a doctor, nurse, police officer, fireman, ambulance officer, first aider or a rescue/emergency volunteer, with those kind of attitudes..

WHAT ABOUT those of us who have more than one ethnic group in our family lineage; and/or friends, school/college/work mates, neighbours ?

THAT person that you go out of your way to avoid because you're scared of their skin tones, might have been my cousin or uncle or an old friend..

IF you met me after I'd had even a few days out in the sun, you might well not know which way to duck !

By our own I meant that id be drawn to help the white person first if both of the injured seemed to have the same injuries.
I'd still help the other victim though whatever colour or nationality.
I just like us to be honest about our differences and yes we have many that most try to avoid speaking about!

Well, you obviously do Blacktie, because you seem to be obsessed with it. Some of us lead more normal lives and doesn't give a shit what colour skin covers up the gory bits just as long as they are covered. Wouldn't be happy if everyone ran around with their guts hanging out.

by 'Wolfie Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:31 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So you don't think that black people talk about their "own kind"? You need to do more research.

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

I WENT to an Aboriginal uncle's funeral back in March...

AS you can well imagine, there were all shades among the congregation..
AND there were three Vietnamese nuns there, as well !

I RECKON IF Ragg's or Stormee were there, they wouldn't know where to look..
Wondering if there were any cannibals among the crowd, and looking for an escape route... Razz

by Raggamuffin Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:33 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

down here they don't much, or at least not like you do in the UK and USA, we are all Aussie. we might talk as in commentary but I don’t think many people feel as 'primitively' about skin colour as Blackie does. (in Sydney at least)

I WENT to an Aboriginal uncle's funeral back in March...

AS you can well imagine, there were all shades among the congregation..
AND there three Vietnamese nuns, as well !

I RECKON IF Ragg's or Stormee were there, they wouldn't know where to look..
Wondering if there were any cannibals among the crowd, and looking for an escape route...

It would have been a long way to go for a funeral ...

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:53 am

Syl wrote:
blackie333 wrote:No they don't really.
Self preservation is the name of the game and anyone suggesting otherwise is living a lie.

Anyone who has kids or grandkids will know that their lives are worth more than yours if you had to choose....be they black white or any other colour.
So self preservation is superseded by instinct to preserve loved ones rather than oneself.

It is a thought provoking question though.

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do Laughing

by Guest Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:06 am

blackie333 wrote:
Syl wrote:

Anyone who has kids or grandkids will know that their lives are worth more than yours if you had to choose....be they black white or any other colour.
So self preservation is superseded by instinct to preserve loved ones rather than oneself.

It is a thought provoking question though.

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do

Well blacktie, you had to go a long way back to find that post to reply to, probably because you don't have the brain to reply to the posts that shot you down in flames.

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:16 am

sassy wrote:
blackie333 wrote:

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do

Well blacktie, you had to go a long way back to find that post to reply to, probably because you don't have the brain to reply to the posts that shot you down in flames.

The post that shot me down hasn't been written yet Laughing

by Raggamuffin Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:29 am

blackie333 wrote:
Syl wrote:

Anyone who has kids or grandkids will know that their lives are worth more than yours if you had to choose....be they black white or any other colour.
So self preservation is superseded by instinct to preserve loved ones rather than oneself.

It is a thought provoking question though.

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do

That's actually a nice post blackie.

by Syl Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:53 pm

blackie333 wrote:
Syl wrote:

Anyone who has kids or grandkids will know that their lives are worth more than yours if you had to choose....be they black white or any other colour.
So self preservation is superseded by instinct to preserve loved ones rather than oneself.

It is a thought provoking question though.

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do

I was responding here to your opening post when you said "SELF PRESERVATION IS THE NAME OF THE GAME AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A LIE"

Many times if it's a them or us situation a person will save a loved one first. If instinct kicks in many people put their own safety last before complete strangers.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:56 pm

Syl wrote:
blackie333 wrote:

Having lost my mom and dad who I loved it doesn't seem to me that I could ever care for anyone that much again.
I love my sisters and would probably go down fighting for them but .....

The threads just changed from being one about our different colours to one about our nearest and dearest whatever colour they are.
I love it when others just get carried away with themselves and start talking rubbish like I do

I was responding here to your opening post when you said "SELF PRESERVATION IS THE NAME OF THE GAME AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A LIE"

Many times if it's a them or us situation a person will save a loved one first. If instinct kicks in many people put their own safety last before complete strangers.

And many times they'll put their own safety first. There's far too much idealism on this forum. Laughing

by Syl Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I was responding here to your opening post when you said "SELF PRESERVATION IS THE NAME OF THE GAME AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A LIE"

Many times if it's a them or us situation a person will save a loved one first. If instinct kicks in many people put their own safety last before complete strangers.

And many times they'll put their own safety first. There's far too much idealism on this forum.

Yes of course they will...and I don't think most of us how we would react in an emergency situation till we are in one ourselves.

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Whatever Rags, as they simply can't understand how she got it, because all of them, including her, took all the proper precautions, you wander on down any road you like, seems you are on one today.

Just because I challenged what you said? You don't like being disagreed with, do you?

People have varying opinions on Pauline Cafferkey - my view differs from your view.

Syl never backs down to anyone but I wish she would learn not to mess with me Laughing

by Raggamuffin Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:57 pm

blackie333 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Just because I challenged what you said? You don't like being disagreed with, do you?

People have varying opinions on Pauline Cafferkey - my view differs from your view.

Syl never backs down to anyone but I wash she would learn not to mess with me

What does that have to do with my post? It was Sassy I was talking to, not Syl. Surprised

by blackie333 Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:06 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
blackie333 wrote:

Syl never backs down to anyone but I wash she would learn not to mess with me

What does that have to do with my post? It was Sassy I was talking to, not Syl.

Nothing, but expecting me to behave isn't really realistic as you should know better than anyone else you silly bugger Laughing

by Syl Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:31 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
blackie333 wrote:

Syl never backs down to anyone but I wash she would learn not to mess with me

What does that have to do with my post? It was Sassy I was talking to, not Syl.

At least he knows which forum he is posting on.....I think. scratch

by Original Quill Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:32 pm

Didge wrote:So claiming its a fallacy makes your reaponsed a reasoned answr?

No, if you cannot act like an adult, I suggest you run along and play with the other children.
Its simple maths
as explained above
I mean why is it based on a poor sterotype of Arabs and Asians being terrorists that Americans do have, that we are not seeing the same situation with them being shot and killed by the Police.
The simple answer to this are not many are involved in commiting many crimes and incidents with the police.

Didge does not reason. He accumulates other people's thoughts, and tries to smother you with horseshit. Simple binomial analysis is beyond his comprehension.

by Guest Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:56 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:So claiming its a fallacy makes your reaponsed a reasoned answr?

No, if you cannot act like an adult, I suggest you run along and play with the other children.
Its simple maths
as explained above
I mean why is it based on a poor sterotype of Arabs and Asians being terrorists that Americans do have, that we are not seeing the same situation with them being shot and killed by the Police.
The simple answer to this are not many are involved in commiting many crimes and incidents with the police.

Didge does not reason. He accumulates other people's thoughts, and tries to smother you with horseshit. Simple binomial analysis is beyond his comprehension.

Oh dear someone is emotional.
Like I say, people who are racist or prejudice look at the person who has shot the gun based on the colour of their skin and are led by their emotions and not reason, that is you.
Where as I do not rule out the possibility of racis, your presumption is based on the skin colour of the person who has shot and killed someone when the shooter are white, excatly what racists do when blacks kill someone white.
Your though process lacks anhy reason and just further cause a further devide between African Americans and the Police

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:33 am

My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

by Ben Reilly Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:41 am

Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

No, feelings lead to action, always. Feel like I'm dealing with a kindergatener who likes to torture stray animals ...

by HoratioTarr Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:43 am

Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

This attitude is why the world is in the state it's in today.

by eddie Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:44 am

Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

I understand you would put your family first but the rest of your post is horse shit.

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:16 am

Maybe you would like to explain your horses*** comment.

by Guest Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:01 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

This attitude is why the world is in the state it's in today.

Ain't that the truth!

by Syl Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:44 am

Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

It's natural to put your family first before anyone else, I doubt many people would say differently.
But Major, just turn the last part of your post round.
If your wife or family were in a bad situation would you want others to turn away or help?
The kindness and empathy of strangers can often be a matter of life or death.

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:40 pm

I am talking about 'lip service', Syl which does not make any real, measurable difference,
Doing measurable meaningful deeds is totally different.

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:52 pm

There is far too much PRETENDY IDEALISM, PRETENDY OUTRAGE & LIES on forums, those who speaketh the truth are looked on as villains by most but we here do have a few who understand but not necessarily agree with controversial points and say so in a respectful way, almost an art form.

by Syl Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:12 pm

Major wrote:I am talking about 'lip service', Syl which does not make any real, measurable difference,
Doing measurable meaningful deeds is totally different.

I think opinions and voicing them does make a difference though.
Not so much on forums, like you say anyone can say or be anything, and some people have an agenda.

I was talking more in real life, our attitudes can influence others, just in simple ways if you are nice to people they will more often than not be nice back, and the opposite to of course.

I don't want to sound like Pollyanna.... Laughing

but it's true.

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:39 pm

Syl wrote:
Major wrote:I am talking about 'lip service', Syl which does not make any real, measurable difference,
Doing measurable meaningful deeds is totally different.

I think opinions and voicing them does make a difference though.
Not so much on forums, like you say anyone can say or be anything, and some people have an agenda.

I was talking more in real life, our attitudes can influence others, just in simple ways if you are nice to people they will more often than not be nice back, and the opposite to of course.

I don't want to sound like Pollyanna.... but it's true.

Do black lives or any one elses lives mean as much as yours does? - Page 2 Screen%20Shot%202016-07-15%20at%2017.33.54_zpsnwho6eom

Pollyanna, who is this Syl?

by Guest Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:44 pm

Syl wrote:
Major wrote:I am talking about 'lip service', Syl which does not make any real, measurable difference,
Doing measurable meaningful deeds is totally different.

I think opinions and voicing them does make a difference though.
Not so much on forums, like you say anyone can say or be anything, and some people have an agenda.

I was talking more in real life, our attitudes can influence others, just in simple ways if you are nice to people they will more often than not be nice back, and the opposite to of course.

I don't want to sound like Pollyanna.... but it's true.

Totally agree with that Syl, IRL if you are happy and relaxed with people that's what you get back. However, also IRL if you find people in groups that have an agenda of racist and hatred, being nice to them ain't gonna work normally, it's been tried a few times though by the very people they were being racist about.

by Major Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:05 pm

sassy wrote:
blackie333 wrote:

I wasn't even thinking about our colour, I meant in general that we all love ourselves far more than we love anyone else and that's true of most of us.
If I was spilling my blood next to you on the battlefield and someone came along with a needle and a bag of blood we both wanted and needed desperately I'd fight you for it

I think that's called hoisted by your own petard Blacktie, because the guy bringing the blood would be laying down his life to try and save yours.

There are certain situations where you MUST put oneself first and this is one of them.

by Victorismyhero Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:50 pm

sassy wrote:
Syl wrote:
Major wrote:I am talking about 'lip service', Syl which does not make any real, measurable difference,
Doing measurable meaningful deeds is totally different.

I think opinions and voicing them does make a difference though.
Not so much on forums, like you say anyone can say or be anything, and some people have an agenda.

I was talking more in real life, our attitudes can influence others, just in simple ways if you are nice to people they will more often than not be nice back, and the opposite to of course.

I don't want to sound like Pollyanna.... but it's true.

Totally agree with that Syl, IRL if you are happy and relaxed with people that's what you get back. However, also IRL if you find people in groups that have an agenda of racist and hatred, being nice to them ain't gonna work normally, it's been tried a few times though by the very people they were being racist about.

thank you for fianlly accepting the truth of that

now perhaps you can lift your "reverse blindness"??

by eddie Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:10 pm

Major wrote:Maybe you would like to explain your horses*** comment.

Sure.
The last part of your post was like the smell of horse shit; I didn't want to be anywhere near it.

by 'Wolfie Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:28 pm

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

by HoratioTarr Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:46 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

Personal lives and family should be kept well out of forum business.

by SEXY MAMA Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:10 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

I like Tommy i think hes an ok guy and can be a laugh. I dont agree with his posts but i dont belive him to be full of hatred like Major!

And yes i agree with Haratio we shouldnt discuss family members on here.

by Miffs2 Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:32 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

Personal lives and family should be kept well out of forum business.

Yes , they should because some store snippets of info to bring up at will, usually with the intent to hurt or cause trouble.

by Major Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:00 pm

Keep familiz out of it.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:40 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

I hadn't even posted on this thread...

Why do the admin carry on letting this twat carry on with this constant and totally unprovoked personal insulting carry on...?

by Raggamuffin Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:12 am

Major wrote:My kids and wife come first in everything,
anyone else is insignificant in comparison.

Concerning yourself in ones mind with the probz of unthuz is meaningless and fruitless.

Actionz are the reality which mean something.

Feeling sorry or anything else for a stranger meanz nowt beneficial to them.

Well yes - feeling sorry for a stranger doesn't really help them, and they don't even know you feel sorry for them. Even if they did know, do they care?

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

I hadn't even posted on this thread...

Why do the admin carry on letting this twat carry on with this constant and totally unprovoked personal insulting carry on...?

Admin?

by Ben Reilly Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I SOMETIMES WONDER IF Stormee, or Tommy, even have a wife or kids in real life...

AND IF THEY DO, whether or not they still talk to them..

I hadn't even posted on this thread...

Why do the admin carry on letting this twat carry on with this constant and totally unprovoked personal insulting carry on...?

Admin?

Wondering whether someone has a family is not the same thing as bringing someone's family members into the discussion, obviously.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:04 pm

Read your own rules.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Read your own rules.

Posts that include personal details about a particular member in abusive fashion are not allowed, and members who abusively post personal information about others may be subject to administrative action, including a permanent ban, at the administrators' discretion.

Nothing in there about wondering whether a member has a wife or kids.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:16 pm

No but there are other rules that this twat is constantly breaking with impunity.

by Ben Reilly Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No but there are other rules that this twat is constantly breaking with impunity.

Have you reported them?

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:27 pm

I haven't reported anyone for anything before...

But the behaviour has not gone unnoticed... just unacted against...

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