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Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:16 pm
The link between Thomas Mair and the Springbok Club goes back ten years
The man arrested over the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox is believed to have had long-term links with a hard-right group based in London which had been campaigning for many years for Britain to leave the European Union.
Thomas Mair was named as a supporter in an online publication of the Springbok Club, an organisation which has defended the white supremacist apartheid regime in South Africa.
Witnesses to the fatal attack on Ms Cox say they heard Mair shout “Britain First” as the MP was shot and then stabbed. The organisation Britain First, which was founded by former members of the British National Party, has denied that Mair was associated with it and say they condemn the killing.
The link between Mair and the Springbok Club goes back ten years when its online magazine, the Springbok Cyber Newsletter, was inquiring about the whereabouts of “Thomas Mair, from Batley in Yorkshire [who] was one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of “S.A. Patriot” who has moved from his address in the Fieldhead Estate district of the town.”
The leading article for June 2016 Springbok Cyber Newsletter, which describes itself on its website as being pro-free market capitalism and patriotism and anti-political correctness, was, however, devoted to Britain and the referendum. It started: “On Thursday, 23rd June 2016 all British voters will have the opportunity to vote on the future of their country. They can vote either to remain entrapped in the artificial and retrograde European Union, or to regain their sovereign independence....”
The article ends by declaring: “But we should not only be concentrating at the negative aspects of remaining in the EU. Our campaign should be primarily positive and optimistic for a future outside the EU. The motto of the Patriotic Forum (an umbrella grouping of patriotic organisations which the Springbok Club is part of) is “Out of Europe and into the World”. There is a golden future waiting for Britain out there once the country returns to its traditional vision of looking towards the Open Seas and its ethnic brothers and sisters in the Commonwealth around the globe. The days ahead will inspire us!”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html
And that is just the beginning, there is so much more coming out about him.
The man arrested over the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox is believed to have had long-term links with a hard-right group based in London which had been campaigning for many years for Britain to leave the European Union.
Thomas Mair was named as a supporter in an online publication of the Springbok Club, an organisation which has defended the white supremacist apartheid regime in South Africa.
Witnesses to the fatal attack on Ms Cox say they heard Mair shout “Britain First” as the MP was shot and then stabbed. The organisation Britain First, which was founded by former members of the British National Party, has denied that Mair was associated with it and say they condemn the killing.
The link between Mair and the Springbok Club goes back ten years when its online magazine, the Springbok Cyber Newsletter, was inquiring about the whereabouts of “Thomas Mair, from Batley in Yorkshire [who] was one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of “S.A. Patriot” who has moved from his address in the Fieldhead Estate district of the town.”
The leading article for June 2016 Springbok Cyber Newsletter, which describes itself on its website as being pro-free market capitalism and patriotism and anti-political correctness, was, however, devoted to Britain and the referendum. It started: “On Thursday, 23rd June 2016 all British voters will have the opportunity to vote on the future of their country. They can vote either to remain entrapped in the artificial and retrograde European Union, or to regain their sovereign independence....”
The article ends by declaring: “But we should not only be concentrating at the negative aspects of remaining in the EU. Our campaign should be primarily positive and optimistic for a future outside the EU. The motto of the Patriotic Forum (an umbrella grouping of patriotic organisations which the Springbok Club is part of) is “Out of Europe and into the World”. There is a golden future waiting for Britain out there once the country returns to its traditional vision of looking towards the Open Seas and its ethnic brothers and sisters in the Commonwealth around the globe. The days ahead will inspire us!”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html
And that is just the beginning, there is so much more coming out about him.
Guest- Guest
Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:17 pm
London - The alleged killer of British lawmaker Jo Cox was a "dedicated supporter" of a neo-Nazi group based in the United States and also subscribed to a magazine published by a pro-apartheid group, a civil rights group reported on Thursday.
The Southern Poverty Law Center said that the man named by British media as the attacker, Thomas Mair, had a "long history with white nationalism".
"According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organisation in the United States, for decades," the legal advocacy group said on its website.
Cox, a 41-year-old lawmaker with the opposition Labour Party who was known for campaigning for refugee rights, was killed in a daylight attack on Thursday in her home constituency in Yorkshire in northern England.
Police said an investigation was under way to establish the motive for the murder, which halted campaigning a week before Britain's referendum on whether to leave the European Union, a debate marked by divisions over immigration.
The Southern Poverty Law Center reported that Mair had spent more than $620 on reading material from the National Alliance, a group which called for the creation of an all-white homeland and eradication of Jewish people.
Images of two invoices published on the advocacy group's website appeared to show orders for magazines from Thomas Mair, with an address in West Yorkshire.
One handbook Mair purchased included instructions on building a gun from everyday materials, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
British media reported witnesses of the attack as saying that the assailant had used a gun of "old-fashioned" or "homemade" appearance.
'Put Britain first'
One witness, cafe-owner Clarke Rothwell, told the Press Association that the gunman had shouted "put Britain first" repeatedly during the attack.
"Britain First" is the name of a far-right anti-immigration group, which released a statement saying it was "obviously not involved" and "would never encourage behaviour of this sort."
Mair's brother, Scott Mair, told the Daily Telegraph that Thomas "is not violent and is not all that political".
"He has a history of mental illness, but he has had help," Scott Mair said.
Separately, the newspaper reported that Mair was a subscriber to S.A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by a pro-apartheid group with an editorial stance against multiculturalism.
The Independent also reported on Friday that Mair was named as a supporter in an online publication of the Springbok Club, an organisation which has defended the apartheid regime.
According to the Independent, the link between Mair and the Springbok Club goes back ten years when its online magazine, the Springbok Cyber Newsletter, made enquiries about “Thomas Mair, from Batley in Yorkshire [who] was one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of “S.A. Patriot” who has moved from his address in the Fieldhead Estate district of the town.”
http://m.news24.com/news24/World/News/british-mps-alleged-killer-had-links-to-pro-apartheid-magazine-20160617
You think that is bad? There is still more
The Southern Poverty Law Center said that the man named by British media as the attacker, Thomas Mair, had a "long history with white nationalism".
"According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organisation in the United States, for decades," the legal advocacy group said on its website.
Cox, a 41-year-old lawmaker with the opposition Labour Party who was known for campaigning for refugee rights, was killed in a daylight attack on Thursday in her home constituency in Yorkshire in northern England.
Police said an investigation was under way to establish the motive for the murder, which halted campaigning a week before Britain's referendum on whether to leave the European Union, a debate marked by divisions over immigration.
The Southern Poverty Law Center reported that Mair had spent more than $620 on reading material from the National Alliance, a group which called for the creation of an all-white homeland and eradication of Jewish people.
Images of two invoices published on the advocacy group's website appeared to show orders for magazines from Thomas Mair, with an address in West Yorkshire.
One handbook Mair purchased included instructions on building a gun from everyday materials, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
British media reported witnesses of the attack as saying that the assailant had used a gun of "old-fashioned" or "homemade" appearance.
'Put Britain first'
One witness, cafe-owner Clarke Rothwell, told the Press Association that the gunman had shouted "put Britain first" repeatedly during the attack.
"Britain First" is the name of a far-right anti-immigration group, which released a statement saying it was "obviously not involved" and "would never encourage behaviour of this sort."
Mair's brother, Scott Mair, told the Daily Telegraph that Thomas "is not violent and is not all that political".
"He has a history of mental illness, but he has had help," Scott Mair said.
Separately, the newspaper reported that Mair was a subscriber to S.A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by a pro-apartheid group with an editorial stance against multiculturalism.
The Independent also reported on Friday that Mair was named as a supporter in an online publication of the Springbok Club, an organisation which has defended the apartheid regime.
According to the Independent, the link between Mair and the Springbok Club goes back ten years when its online magazine, the Springbok Cyber Newsletter, made enquiries about “Thomas Mair, from Batley in Yorkshire [who] was one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of “S.A. Patriot” who has moved from his address in the Fieldhead Estate district of the town.”
http://m.news24.com/news24/World/News/british-mps-alleged-killer-had-links-to-pro-apartheid-magazine-20160617
You think that is bad? There is still more
Guest- Guest
Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Raggamuffin Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:18 pm
Why do we need a new thread? FFS.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:19 pm
Alleged killer of British MP was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance
Thomas Mair, alleged killer of British MP Jo Cox, was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Jo Cox, a member of the Labour Party in the British Parliament, died Thursday after an attack by a lone man who shot and stabbed her in West Yorkshire following a regular public meeting she held with constituents.
Jo Cox (AP Images/Yui Mok/PA)
Her alleged killer is Thomas Mair, 52. According to eyewitness accounts, which are still under investigation, Mair was armed with a knife and a gun, either antique or homemade, and may have shouted “Britain First” when he attacked Cox, a possible reference to the far right Britain First party, whose leader, Paul Golding, is a former member of the white nationalist British National Party. The Daily Telegraph reported that Mair’s brother claimed Mair has a “history of mental illness,” and neighbors called him a “loner,” but he also has a long history with white nationalism.
According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organization in the United States, for decades. Mair purchased a manual from the NA in 1999 that included instructions on how to build a pistol.
Mair, who resides in what is described as a semi-detached house on the Fieldhead Estate in Birstall, sent just over $620 to the NA, according to invoices for goods purchased from National Vanguard Books, the NA’s printing imprint. Mair purchased subscriptions for periodicals published by the imprint and he bought works that instruct readers on the “Chemistry of Powder & Explosives,” “Incendiaries,” and a work called “Improvised Munitions Handbook." Under “Section III, No. 9” (page 125) of that handbook, there are detailed instructions for constructing a “Pipe Pistol For .38 Caliber Ammunition” from components that can be purchased from nearly any hardware store.
The NA may be best-known for the work of its now-deceased founder, William Pierce, a former physics professor who also wrote racist novels. One, The Turner Diaries, tells the post-apocalyptic fictional story of a white man fighting in a race war that may have provided inspiration for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
The Daily Telegraph also reported that Mair was a subscriber to S. A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by White Rhino Club, a pro-apartheid group. The club describes that magazine’s editorial stance as opposed to “multi-cultural societies” and “expansionist Islam.” According to the Daily Telegraph, a January 2006 blog post attributed to the group described Mair as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.”
Thomas Mair
Cox, 41, known as a rising star in the Labour Party, was an advocate for Syrian refugees. She had worked as an aid worker in developing countries and went on to become head of policy at Oxfam. She had also worked as an advisor to Sarah Brown, wife of the former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown, in women’s and children’s health campaigns. Cox was elected to Parliament in 2015 and quickly gained a reputation for taking on her own party’s leadership. She supported staying in the European Union in the face of the upcoming so-called “Brexit” referendum, which will determine whether the UK leaves the European Union.
The "Improvised Munitions Handbook" is among the books purchased by Mair from the National Alliance, which includes these instructions for building a homemade gun.
Order Mair made in May of 1999 from National Vanguard Books. Includes handbooks titled "Chemistry of Powder & Explosives" and "Improvised Munitions Handbook."
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance
Thomas Mair, alleged killer of British MP Jo Cox, was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Jo Cox, a member of the Labour Party in the British Parliament, died Thursday after an attack by a lone man who shot and stabbed her in West Yorkshire following a regular public meeting she held with constituents.
Jo Cox (AP Images/Yui Mok/PA)
Her alleged killer is Thomas Mair, 52. According to eyewitness accounts, which are still under investigation, Mair was armed with a knife and a gun, either antique or homemade, and may have shouted “Britain First” when he attacked Cox, a possible reference to the far right Britain First party, whose leader, Paul Golding, is a former member of the white nationalist British National Party. The Daily Telegraph reported that Mair’s brother claimed Mair has a “history of mental illness,” and neighbors called him a “loner,” but he also has a long history with white nationalism.
According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organization in the United States, for decades. Mair purchased a manual from the NA in 1999 that included instructions on how to build a pistol.
Mair, who resides in what is described as a semi-detached house on the Fieldhead Estate in Birstall, sent just over $620 to the NA, according to invoices for goods purchased from National Vanguard Books, the NA’s printing imprint. Mair purchased subscriptions for periodicals published by the imprint and he bought works that instruct readers on the “Chemistry of Powder & Explosives,” “Incendiaries,” and a work called “Improvised Munitions Handbook." Under “Section III, No. 9” (page 125) of that handbook, there are detailed instructions for constructing a “Pipe Pistol For .38 Caliber Ammunition” from components that can be purchased from nearly any hardware store.
The NA may be best-known for the work of its now-deceased founder, William Pierce, a former physics professor who also wrote racist novels. One, The Turner Diaries, tells the post-apocalyptic fictional story of a white man fighting in a race war that may have provided inspiration for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
The Daily Telegraph also reported that Mair was a subscriber to S. A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by White Rhino Club, a pro-apartheid group. The club describes that magazine’s editorial stance as opposed to “multi-cultural societies” and “expansionist Islam.” According to the Daily Telegraph, a January 2006 blog post attributed to the group described Mair as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.”
Thomas Mair
Cox, 41, known as a rising star in the Labour Party, was an advocate for Syrian refugees. She had worked as an aid worker in developing countries and went on to become head of policy at Oxfam. She had also worked as an advisor to Sarah Brown, wife of the former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown, in women’s and children’s health campaigns. Cox was elected to Parliament in 2015 and quickly gained a reputation for taking on her own party’s leadership. She supported staying in the European Union in the face of the upcoming so-called “Brexit” referendum, which will determine whether the UK leaves the European Union.
The "Improvised Munitions Handbook" is among the books purchased by Mair from the National Alliance, which includes these instructions for building a homemade gun.
Order Mair made in May of 1999 from National Vanguard Books. Includes handbooks titled "Chemistry of Powder & Explosives" and "Improvised Munitions Handbook."
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance
Guest- Guest
Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:10 pm
What a utterly 'COWARDESS' thing to do ...attacking a defenseless woman that has had the courage and fortitude to stand up for what 'SHE' believes and is trying to do the right thing! To be murdered by a lesser thinking low life that has to shoot her & stab her to try to make his 'POINT' --- Sorry, ugly murdering cretin, behavior like that just instills within me that this lady was on the side of RIGHT and her courage was eons above your scum sucking IQ level.Clipped from Sassy's OP > > >
Alleged killer of British MP was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance
Thomas Mair, alleged killer of British MP Jo Cox, was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Jo Cox, a member of the Labour Party in the British Parliament, died Thursday after an attack by a lone man who shot and stabbed her in West Yorkshire following a regular public meeting she held with constituents.
Jo Cox (AP Images/Yui Mok/PA)
Her alleged killer is Thomas Mair, 52. According to eyewitness accounts, which are still under investigation, Mair was armed with a knife and a gun, either antique or homemade, and may have shouted “Britain First” when he attacked Cox,
Pathetic, that anyone can target public officials in the way that they have and do ...cowards - everyone of the bastards!
Guest- Guest
Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:23 pm
http://www.infowars.com/the-political-establishment-will-exploit-the-murder-of-jo-cox-to-kill-brexit/
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:48 pm
Sassy, he is a nutter.
Did you do a thread like this for the nutter who killed at Pulse on Sunday?
Seems you're making more of the 'Britain First' bit than needs be.
He might also have been a hoarder of chees but who cares? He's a nutcase whatever political leanings he might have had.
Did you do a thread like this for the nutter who killed at Pulse on Sunday?
Seems you're making more of the 'Britain First' bit than needs be.
He might also have been a hoarder of chees but who cares? He's a nutcase whatever political leanings he might have had.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:58 pm
British member of parliament has killed in her Yorkshire constituency.
Helen ‘Jo’ Cox was pronounced dead at 1:48pm Thursday afternoon, shortly after being “stabbed and shot” outside her constituency surgery in Birstall, near Leeds. A 52 year old male has been arrested in relation to the killing, and police said in a press conference they are not seeking any more suspects.
Suspected killer may have had “mental health problems”, in receipt of “psychotherapy and medication”
The suspected killer of MP Jo Cox has been named locally as Thomas Mair, who has featured in a number of local news reports in recent years as a mentally ill man who claimed to be benefitting from local voluntary opportunities.
An archived 2010 article about a country park which welcomed Mr. Mair from the Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems to volunteer in building a “faith garden” reported Mr. Mair as saying: “I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world.
“Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment.
“All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work.
“Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour.
“When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling.
“For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative.”
A 2011 article from Batley News about the same initiative also featured a picture of Mr. Mair (right).
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/16/breaking-labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-stabbed-constituency-surgery-yorkshire/
I don't know what this picture is about as it just appeared on the page with but no caption underneath?
Helen ‘Jo’ Cox was pronounced dead at 1:48pm Thursday afternoon, shortly after being “stabbed and shot” outside her constituency surgery in Birstall, near Leeds. A 52 year old male has been arrested in relation to the killing, and police said in a press conference they are not seeking any more suspects.
Suspected killer may have had “mental health problems”, in receipt of “psychotherapy and medication”
The suspected killer of MP Jo Cox has been named locally as Thomas Mair, who has featured in a number of local news reports in recent years as a mentally ill man who claimed to be benefitting from local voluntary opportunities.
An archived 2010 article about a country park which welcomed Mr. Mair from the Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems to volunteer in building a “faith garden” reported Mr. Mair as saying: “I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world.
“Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment.
“All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work.
“Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour.
“When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling.
“For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative.”
A 2011 article from Batley News about the same initiative also featured a picture of Mr. Mair (right).
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/16/breaking-labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-stabbed-constituency-surgery-yorkshire/
I don't know what this picture is about as it just appeared on the page with but no caption underneath?
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:00 pm
Sassy being partisan...!?
Surely not!!!
Surely not!!!
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:06 pm
From the sun newspaper (badly reported too, who reads this paper???)
[clipped]The man had an old-fashioned gun that he had to reload manually after the first shot.
“After he shot her at point-blank range he shot her the second time while she was lying on the ground.
“All the time as he was reloading he was stabbing her again and again on the ground in her body and shouting ‘Britain first! Britain first! Britain first!’
“The knife had a black blade about a foot long.” But there was confusion over whether he had screamed: “Britain first.”[clipped]
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1293698/cops-were-stepping-up-security-for-murdered-mp-jo-cox-after-she-received-threatening-messages-for-three-months-before-she-was-killed/
[clipped]The man had an old-fashioned gun that he had to reload manually after the first shot.
“After he shot her at point-blank range he shot her the second time while she was lying on the ground.
“All the time as he was reloading he was stabbing her again and again on the ground in her body and shouting ‘Britain first! Britain first! Britain first!’
“The knife had a black blade about a foot long.” But there was confusion over whether he had screamed: “Britain first.”[clipped]
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1293698/cops-were-stepping-up-security-for-murdered-mp-jo-cox-after-she-received-threatening-messages-for-three-months-before-she-was-killed/
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:11 pm
The man who wrote this is pretty clear that nobody shouted 'Britain first'...
It was reported that a 70 year old man 'tackled' the gunman... Maybe the man who wrote this was this 70 year old man...?
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WELCOME to the world of dirty political tricks ...
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:13 pm
Not Signed - No One taking credit but the obvious attempt is to
take away the 'POWER' from the slain victim and what she stood for!
How gutter crawling low is that? But that's what people do when the
opportunity presents it's self and the media picks up the image and ~~~
awayyyyyy it runs!
Guest- Guest
Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:21 pm
Tommy it was put in the window of the dry cleaners
Read the story in the sun link above
Read the story in the sun link above
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:24 pm
Dry cleaner Aamir Tahi was quoted after the shooting, saying: “Apparently the guy who did it shouted ‘Britain first’. If I had been there I would have tackled him.”
But a sign last night hung in the window of the Dry Clean 2U store close to the murder scene with the words:
“Please note. I did NOT tackle the gunman.
NO-ONE shouted Britain first at ANY TIME.”
But a sign last night hung in the window of the Dry Clean 2U store close to the murder scene with the words:
“Please note. I did NOT tackle the gunman.
NO-ONE shouted Britain first at ANY TIME.”
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:32 pm
Anymore ...unless there's a video clip/film at 8 then there's always going to be a they said vs we saidabout any thing so serious as your up coming Brexit Vote. And now the Mentally Deranged that are so easily motivated into taking action are crawling out of their dark places that they dwell.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Original Quill Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:36 pm
All political violence comes from the right. Have you ever seen a political assassination, or indeed any kind of violence not coming from a RW'r?
Think Hitler. Think Donald Trump. All RW'rs.
Think Hitler. Think Donald Trump. All RW'rs.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:33 pm
'I am a socialist...' - Hitler
And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
What about the uaf...?
And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
What about the uaf...?
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Raggamuffin Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:39 pm
Tommy Monk wrote:'I am a socialist...' - Hitler
And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
What about the uaf...?
The UAF aren't any better than these right wing groups - bunch of trouble makers.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:12 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:'I am a socialist...' - Hitler
And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
What about the uaf...?
The UAF aren't any better than these right wing groups - bunch of trouble makers.
They never assassinated anybody though, did they.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Raggamuffin Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:16 pm
Ben_Reilly wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
The UAF aren't any better than these right wing groups - bunch of trouble makers.
They never assassinated anybody though, did they.
Neither have the EDL, the BNP, or Britain First.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Raggamuffin Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:24 pm
In fact, the story is that Mair was a supporter of the National Alliance - an organisation hailing from the US ...
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Original Quill Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:15 pm
Tommy Monk wrote:'I am a socialist...' - Hitler
Hitler was the classic: Do as I say, not as I do... I think we've had enough on the forum to say that Hitler was the classic RW'r. True socialist governments align themselves with state ownership, which Nazi Germany did not. They align themselves with labor movements, and Nazi Germany was highly repressive of the labor in general. Social welfare provisions did not advance under Nazi Germany. Finally, state regulation of capitalism was really a form of wartime mobilization of capital for Nazi Germany. As for the term "socialist" in the name, as someone once said: " If it doesn't walk like a duck, quack like a duck, swim like a duck, or fly like a duck, then calling it a duck doesn't make it a duck."
Tommy Monk wrote:And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
The socialist revolution split during the Russian revolution; they became: (1) Bolsheviks, which defined the sine qua non of socialism as state control of the forces of production, typically guided through state command; and, the Mensheviks, which tended toward simple, liberal opposition and the peasant-based Socialist Revolutionary party. You all saw Dr. Zhivago...the statist, totaliarians won. While Stalin remained closer to the socialist theory, like Nazi Germany he opted for unlimited state authority. As we have seen with Republicans, that is the ultimate goal of RW'rs everywhere.
Tommy Monk wrote:What about the uaf...?
What about them?
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Andy Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:19 pm
He had Nazi regalia in his home and subscribed to a far right website in the US.
BREAKING NEWS: Police 'find Nazi regalia at MP murder suspect's home' http://dailym.ai/1USqzTC via http://dailym.ai/android
Mair is a disturbed far right winger. Like Hitler ,Trump and Breivik.
Only our Nazi denyer Tommy Monk believes Hitler was a Labour supporter.
BREAKING NEWS: Police 'find Nazi regalia at MP murder suspect's home' http://dailym.ai/1USqzTC via http://dailym.ai/android
Mair is a disturbed far right winger. Like Hitler ,Trump and Breivik.
Only our Nazi denyer Tommy Monk believes Hitler was a Labour supporter.
Last edited by Handy Andy on Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by HoratioTarr Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:23 pm
eddie wrote:Sassy, he is a nutter.
Did you do a thread like this for the nutter who killed at Pulse on Sunday?
Seems you're making more of the 'Britain First' bit than needs be.
He might also have been a hoarder of chees but who cares? He's a nutcase whatever political leanings he might have had.
There's something distinctly unsavoury about the way some people are crowing about this poor woman's death being linked to Brexit. It's almost as though this terribly sad event has now given the Remain tribe something to wave over everyone else's head like a whip. It's not going to change my mind which way I vote, not one iota.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:32 pm
HoratioTarr wrote:eddie wrote:Sassy, he is a nutter.
Did you do a thread like this for the nutter who killed at Pulse on Sunday?
Seems you're making more of the 'Britain First' bit than needs be.
He might also have been a hoarder of chees but who cares? He's a nutcase whatever political leanings he might have had.
There's something distinctly unsavoury about the way some people are crowing about this poor woman's death being linked to Brexit. It's almost as though this terribly sad event has now given the Remain tribe something to wave over everyone else's head like a whip. It's not going to change my mind which way I vote, not one iota.
http://www.infowars.com/the-political-establishment-will-exploit-the-murder-of-jo-cox-to-kill-brexit/
And...
Anna Lindh
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/17/swedish-politicians-death-13-years-ago-mirrors-murder-of-uk-lawmaker.html
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by 'Wolfie Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:46 pm
TOMMY (and likewise Major Stormee, on his "Oz cattle.." thread) is vainly attempting to deflect/derail this thread for one clear and simple reason...
Tommy (and Stormee) are fundamentally unable to retreat from their rancid support for extremist Right Wing groups, and their rabid hatemongering and scaremongering tactics..
Those two grubby little maggots simply don't possess the required intellect and rational thought processes to allow them to admit to their stupidity, complicity, duplicity, and plain old idiocy.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:04 pm
Okay wolf, I'm going to ask you nicely again:
Please don't just turn up to have a go at other members.
Add something to the debate. You're like a broken record. We get it: you don't like Tommy or Stormee - who cares?
Only you.
Please don't just turn up to have a go at other members.
Add something to the debate. You're like a broken record. We get it: you don't like Tommy or Stormee - who cares?
Only you.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:07 pm
Tommy Monk wrote:HoratioTarr wrote:eddie wrote:Sassy, he is a nutter.
Did you do a thread like this for the nutter who killed at Pulse on Sunday?
Seems you're making more of the 'Britain First' bit than needs be.
He might also have been a hoarder of chees but who cares? He's a nutcase whatever political leanings he might have had.
There's something distinctly unsavoury about the way some people are crowing about this poor woman's death being linked to Brexit. It's almost as though this terribly sad event has now given the Remain tribe something to wave over everyone else's head like a whip. It's not going to change my mind which way I vote, not one iota.
http://www.infowars.com/the-political-establishment-will-exploit-the-murder-of-jo-cox-to-kill-brexit/
And...
Anna Lindh
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/17/swedish-politicians-death-13-years-ago-mirrors-murder-of-uk-lawmaker.html
You know that if a pro-leave figure was assassinated days before the election, the pro-leave movement would be making the assassin into the face of the stay movement.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:12 pm
INDEED ... they'd be going APE-SHIT CRAZY with accusations. 
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:44 pm
Original Quill wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:'I am a socialist...' - Hitler
Hitler was the classic: Do as I say, not as I do... I think we've had enough on the forum to say that Hitler was the classic RW'r. True socialist governments align themselves with state ownership, which Nazi Germany did not. They align themselves with labor movements, and Nazi Germany was highly repressive of the labor in general. Social welfare provisions did not advance under Nazi Germany. Finally, state regulation of capitalism was really a form of wartime mobilization of capital for Nazi Germany. As for the term "socialist" in the name, as someone once said: " If it doesn't walk like a duck, quack like a duck, swim like a duck, or fly like a duck, then calling it a duck doesn't make it a duck."
State ownership and control did increase... support for unemployed and national health care provisions increased... And you have heard of 'volkswagen' haven't you...!?
"Volkswagen is founded - May 28, 1937 - ...under the control of Adolf Hitler of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party–forms a new state-owned automobile company..."
And do you know what 'volkswagen' translates into English as...?
It translates as "People's Automobile"!!!
And...
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarianTommy Monk wrote:And have you never heard of Stalin...!?
The socialist revolution split during the Russian revolution; they became: (1) Bolsheviks, which defined the sine qua non of socialism as state control of the forces of production, typically guided through state command; and, the Mensheviks, which tended toward simple, liberal opposition and the peasant-based Socialist Revolutionary party. You all saw Dr. Zhivago...the statist, totaliarians won. While Stalin remained closer to the socialist theory, like Nazi Germany he opted for unlimited state authority. As we have seen with Republicans, that is the ultimate goal of RW'rs everywhere.
Wrong again! It is our lefties here who are obsessed with pursuit of ever increasing big state and big state control... which is why they love the eu fascist dictatorship so much... and all the ever increasing power grabbing and control and rules and regulations it does!Tommy Monk wrote:What about the uaf...?
What about them?
UAF are a leftie group of politically motivated rent a mob thugs!!!
You claimed that all politically motivated violence was RW...
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:58 pm
Counter-terrorism investigators have been involved since the start of the investigation, working alongside murder squad detectives.
The north-east counter-terrorism unit has experience in investigating domestic extremism, the official term for far-right activity. Detectives from the unit will focus on the motive for the attack and it has specialists such as those in intelligence analysis, who can help the police inquiry.
The Guardian understands that special police units that searched the house of Thomas Mair found samples of Nazi regalia and farright literature.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-death-police-labour-mp-latest-updates?page=with:block-576413c3e4b0b4b233940bf1#block-576413c3e4b0b4b233940bf1
The north-east counter-terrorism unit has experience in investigating domestic extremism, the official term for far-right activity. Detectives from the unit will focus on the motive for the attack and it has specialists such as those in intelligence analysis, who can help the police inquiry.
Nazi regalia and far-right literature found at home of suspect
We have more details about the suspect in the Jo Cox killing.The Guardian understands that special police units that searched the house of Thomas Mair found samples of Nazi regalia and farright literature.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2016/jun/17/jo-cox-death-police-labour-mp-latest-updates?page=with:block-576413c3e4b0b4b233940bf1#block-576413c3e4b0b4b233940bf1
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Original Quill Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:29 pm
Tommy Monk wrote:State ownership and control did increase... support for unemployed and national health care provisions increased... And you have heard of 'volkswagen' haven't you...!?
"Volkswagen is founded - May 28, 1937 - ...under the control of Adolf Hitler of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party–forms a new state-owned automobile company..."
And do you know what 'volkswagen' translates into English as...?
It translates as "People's Automobile"!!!
You certainly did not find state ownership of the forces of production in Hitler's Germany. Krupps, Bayer, Siemens, and many more were not public. Those remained in private hands (including foreign corporations like Ford, GM, and IBM).
Tommy Monk wrote:Wrong again! It is our lefties here who are obsessed with pursuit of ever increasing big state and big state control... which is why they love the eu fascist dictatorship so much... and all the ever increasing power grabbing and control and rules and regulations it does!
You fall for the same old optical illusion of capitalism…the theory of the 18th-century shopkeeper depicted in Adam Smith’s, Wealth of Nations.
What socialists pursue is state control of the forces of production. You are slipping in a substitute: absolute totalitarianism. Control of production is a leftist socialist economic theory. Absolute totalitarianism is the final state of capitalism, a plutocracy, or privileged elite.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:59 pm
I think you need to read the mises link I posted...
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Andy Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:56 pm
People would take more notice of you if you finally admitted that Hitler was a very bad man, and agreed with the rest of the world that he was in fact a far right winger, not a communist.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Victorismyhero Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:01 pm
Quite right HA...you lefties have enough of a weight round your neck having Stalin on your side of the game....its not nice to burden you with Hitler too.......... 
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Andy Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:17 pm
This is what the far right think of the murder. Dragged from a Flopping rw racist site.
"Some woman got killed
Boo fucking hoo, join the queue.
This is just typical of the class devide that is still going strong.
How many Servicemen died in Afghanistan and Iraq??
Didn't see Parliament getting recalled every five minutes for them did we, and a single marine is worth every MP and Lord ten times over
Fuck her, she is dead and gone let move on "
Charming.
"Some woman got killed
Boo fucking hoo, join the queue.
This is just typical of the class devide that is still going strong.
How many Servicemen died in Afghanistan and Iraq??
Didn't see Parliament getting recalled every five minutes for them did we, and a single marine is worth every MP and Lord ten times over
Fuck her, she is dead and gone let move on "
Charming.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:27 pm
Handy Andy wrote:People would take more notice of you if you finally admitted that Hitler was a very bad man, and agreed with the rest of the world that he was in fact a far right winger, not a communist.
Why are you saying that I need to 'finally admit that Hitler was a very bad man'...!?
When I have never claimed otherwise...!!!
Also... I have never said he was a Communist!!!
He was a nationalist state socialist!!!
Which is an extreme authoritarian left wing form of govt!!!
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by HoratioTarr Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:55 pm
Ben_Reilly wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:
.
http://www.infowars.com/the-political-establishment-will-exploit-the-murder-of-jo-cox-to-kill-brexit/
And...
Anna Lindh
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/17/swedish-politicians-death-13-years-ago-mirrors-murder-of-uk-lawmaker.html
You know that if a pro-leave figure was assassinated days before the election, the pro-leave movement would be making the assassin into the face of the stay movement.
Possibly. But I'll reiterate...It wouldn't change my vote, and I'm damn sure it wouldn't change anyone else's vote to remain either. People who have made their minds up, have made their minds up
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:26 pm
Quill just got a 'knuckle busted by LF' on another thread for his very off color/insipid remark about a 3 yr old dying in a hot auto - 'culling the herd in Texas' and now here you are saying this about a woman eating at a public place - minding her own business and she's 'MURDERED' for her political beliefs???Handy Andy wrote:This is what the far right think of the murder. Dragged from a Flopping rw racist site.
"Some woman got killed
Boo fucking hoo, join the queue.
This is just typical of the class devide that is still going strong.
How many Servicemen died in Afghanistan and Iraq??
Didn't see Parliament getting recalled every five minutes for them did we, and a single marine is worth every MP and Lord ten times over
Fuck her, she is dead and gone let move on "
Charming.
SERIOUSLY BTW - I would have hoped that I wouldn't have to point out the obvious fallacies in your extraordinary baseless sense of humor that you wrote
But you do know the difference between a 'Soldier' vs 'an elected human' and what they are trained to do - what tools of their profession they would have on them at the time of such an attack ...Right? Or do I need to apply those stick figures and that black board that is so often needed for our Tommy?
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Tommy Monk Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:28 pm
Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, the story is that Mair was a supporter of the National Alliance - an organisation hailing from the US ...
And the only 'evidence' shown so far on that... is the claim that he bought one of their booklet/publications back in 2003...
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Ben Reilly Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:49 pm
Lord Foul wrote:Quite right HA...you lefties have enough of a weight round your neck having Stalin on your side of the game....its not nice to burden you with Hitler too..........
Liberals and conservatives today love to throw Hitler and Stalin at one another, but let's admit -- it's not really fair. Both pursued a mixed bag of agenda items that would fall on either side of the aisle as we locate it today.
What both had in common, obviously, was extreme authoritarianism, which gives them more in common with American conservatives, particularly since the mid 1960s:
According to the political compass analyses of most experts, Hitler was economically centrist and authoritarian, while Stalin was economically left and authoritarian. But let me know if you can find a lefty on your block who supports suppressing freedom of speech or of worship, who supports suppressing ethnic minorities, etc. Or even one who thinks planned economies could work.
To make another point based on that, when you look at the left vs. the right you really want to think Scientists vs. Priests. The left are scientists -- they aren't going to stick with their views when, like planned economies and a host of outdated lefty ideas, they're proven not to work. The right are the Priests -- they are far more likely to have a faith-like attachment to their principles, and continue to cling to ideas that have been proven not to work (trickle-down economics for example).
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:52 pm
@Zack The man speaks sense.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Victorismyhero Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:03 am
4EVER2 wrote:Quill just got a 'knuckle busted by LF' on another thread for his very off color/insipid remark about a 3 yr old dying in a hot auto - 'culling the herd in Texas' and now here you are saying this about a woman eating at a public place - minding her own business and she's 'MURDERED' for her political beliefs???Handy Andy wrote:This is what the far right think of the murder. Dragged from a Flopping rw racist site.
"Some woman got killed
Boo fucking hoo, join the queue.
This is just typical of the class devide that is still going strong.
How many Servicemen died in Afghanistan and Iraq??
Didn't see Parliament getting recalled every five minutes for them did we, and a single marine is worth every MP and Lord ten times over
Fuck her, she is dead and gone let move on "
Charming.
SERIOUSLY BTW - I would have hoped that I wouldn't have to point out the obvious fallacies in your extraordinary baseless sense of humor that you wrote
one of those
moments....IF...you had read the whole of HA's post ....it would be apparant to even the most myopic muppet that he was posting a quote from another forum he is in total love with (not)///a habit to be deplored to be sure....but the refered to sentiment ISNT HIS....
I would have thought the line at the BEGINNING of
"This is what the far right think of the murder. Dragged from a Flopping rw racist site." MIGHT just possibly...have given you a clue
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Victorismyhero Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:08 am
nothing to do with Britain first EH???
whence this then.....(guess who the middle guy is???)
whence this then.....(guess who the middle guy is???)
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Guest Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:14 am
Dragging 'Quotes' from another community forum to Newsfix ...Really ??? and isn't that ONE OF THOSE RULES that aren't supposed to HAPPEN?
::snap::just so much confusion - I'll say this but I'll enforce that - I'll do this but I'll ignore that - I'll attack you but ignore her for doing the same thing like gerbils in a
And no ...I've never seen anyone type a 'QUOTE' in quite that way; so BRAVO for you that you were able to decipher his intent!
::snap::just so much confusion - I'll say this but I'll enforce that - I'll do this but I'll ignore that - I'll attack you but ignore her for doing the same thing like gerbils in a
And no ...I've never seen anyone type a 'QUOTE' in quite that way; so BRAVO for you that you were able to decipher his intent!
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Victorismyhero Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:32 am
4EVER2 wrote:Dragging 'Quotes' from another community forum to Newsfix ...Really ??? and isn't that ONE OF THOSE RULES that aren't supposed to HAPPEN?
true 4ever ...true...he is a VERY naughty boy...and we tell him so regularly and every time he behaves for a bit then falls off the wagon and repeats his sins....
but we have to have some understanding for the poor chap...he has a terrible affliction.....he has (apparantly ) the most enormous cock...ask eddie..and it follows him everywhere.
::snap::just so much confusion - I'll say this but I'll enforce that - I'll do this but I'll ignore that - I'll attack you but ignore her for doing the same thing like gerbils in a
And no ...I've never seen anyone type a 'QUOTE' in quite that way; so BRAVO for you that you were able to decipher his intent!
Well there ya go then...you have learned your "learn at least one new thing a day"
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by eddie Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:00 am
Just to clarify; HA always had an enormous cockerel for his avatar.
I, in no way, am interested in HA's cock.
For the record.
And HA? Stop going on about the other forum. There's a dear.
I, in no way, am interested in HA's cock.
For the record.
And HA? Stop going on about the other forum. There's a dear.
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Re: Jo Cox death: Suspect linked to far-right group that has campaigned against the EU
by Andy Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:02 am
I very infrequently visit the other site - it harbours a virus which Windows defender and Norton pick up.
And that is just the posters.
My point is the far right are trying to distance themselves from Tait - despite a lot of evidence now coming to light that he was associated with Britain First, had been photographed at rallies and had a lot of material from.them at home.
Had he been a lefty against a staunch Brexiteers the rw would be up in arms and shouting from the rooftops.
The closest analogy is when the Norwegian kids were slaughtered the far right were aghast because they first thought it was the work of a radical Muslim, but we're embarrassed to silenced when Breivik turned out to be one of their own.
As for my huge cock, he has been with me for a long time!
And that is just the posters.
My point is the far right are trying to distance themselves from Tait - despite a lot of evidence now coming to light that he was associated with Britain First, had been photographed at rallies and had a lot of material from.them at home.
Had he been a lefty against a staunch Brexiteers the rw would be up in arms and shouting from the rooftops.
The closest analogy is when the Norwegian kids were slaughtered the far right were aghast because they first thought it was the work of a radical Muslim, but we're embarrassed to silenced when Breivik turned out to be one of their own.
As for my huge cock, he has been with me for a long time!
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» Algerian Woman under investigation for torture and murder of French girl, 12, whose body was found in plastic case in Paris
» Wind turbines cool down the Earth (edited with better video link)
» Saying goodbye to our Queen.
» PHEW.
» And here's some more enrichment...
» John F Kennedy Assassination
» Where is everyone lately...?
» London violence over the weekend...
» Why should anyone believe anything that Mo Farah says...!?
» Liverpool Labour defends mayor role poll after turnout was only 3% and they say they will push ahead with the option that was least preferred!!!
» Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not...
» More evidence of remoaners still trying to overturn Brexit... and this is a conservative MP who should be drummed out of the party and out of parliament!
» R Kelly 30 years, Ghislaine Maxwell 20 years... but here in UK...