The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Earlier this month, I posted about how two Muslim boys in Switzerland were at the center of controversy because they refused to shake their female teacher’s hand before and after class. They didn’t want to follow the longtime Swiss tradition because their religion, they claim, won’t allow them to touch women who aren’t family members.

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 Shutterstock_377118703

Administrators at the school compromised by saying the boys didn’t have to shake the hands of any of their teachers male or female, which only angered the public even more.
And now it may be getting even worse for the boys:

The family of the two teenagers, who refused to shake their female teachers’ hands for religious reasons, have had their application for citizenship suspended. A spokesperson for the local security authorities said that the office for migration in canton Basel Country would be speaking to family members individually, and that it was not unusual for an application to be suspended while additional information was gathered.

I want to believe this is normal behavior, but who knows. If it’s tied in any way to the boys’ actions, I would find it a gross overreaction. As I said before, students shouldn’t be forced to participate in traditions that go against their beliefs, no matter what their reasons are. I’m certainly not defending the students’ faith-based sexism; I just don’t find this tradition worth all the fuss. It doesn’t matter if you’re not standing for the Pledge or not shaking a female teacher’s hand. None of it has any bearing on your education.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/04/22/the-swiss-citizenship-of-two-Muslim-boys-is-at-risk-after-handshake-controversy/

by Ben Reilly Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:19 am

4EVER2 wrote:Well, ain't that a great 'Aint That A Kick In The Head; I'm certainly glad that we don't lump all of the GREAT Muslims in together then we'd have ZERO bad one's to talk-trash on our quaint little community - HUH

That's an interesting thought, why doesn't any group get stereotyped for the good members of their communities?

Those blacks are always out there leading rational, peaceful protests for the cause of equality!

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 MLK2014-events

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 MLK2014-events

Those Muslims with their damned inventing of the scientific method!

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 220px-ibn_al-haytham

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 220px-ibn_al-haytham

Those freaking gays with their abolishing slavery and winning civil wars!

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 F74c76d53ee246ea10527e9465291c6e

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 F74c76d53ee246ea10527e9465291c6e

(Just look into the evidence, people!)

by Guest Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:12 am

You do not want to bring about change Ben but keep bad beliefs

Lincoln and MLK helped change bad beliefs
The Muslims slave trade did not end until the 20th century and not until in places the later part

You are nothing like Lincoln or MLK, because they did not back bad beliefs, but spoke out against them. In fact the best comparison would be to place you as a Democrat in the time of Lincoln refusing to see things as bad, but where you defend bad beliefs
The similarity is so striking

Oh and for the record

Other examples of Dr. King’s positions on Zionism and Israel include the following:

Dr. King said: “The response of some of the so-called young militants does not represent the position of the vast majority of Negroes. There are some who are color-consumed and they see a kind of mystique in blackness or in being colored, and anything non-colored is condemned. We do not follow that course ... Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect her right to exist, its territorial integrity and the right to use whatever sea lanes it needs. Israel is one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security, and that security must be a reality."

“Israel's right to exist as a state in security is incontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism,”

“I can say with absolute certainty that Martin abhorred anti-Semitism in all its forms, including anti-Zionism,”—Clarence B. Jones, personal attorney and close adviser to Martin Luther King Jr.

“Martin… warned repeatedly that anti-Semitism would soon be disguised as anti-Zionism.”—Clarence B. Jones, personal attorney and close adviser to Martin Luther King Jr.

“[MLK] understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and Jews… He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation… He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.”—Rep. John Lewis, former civil rights leader who worked with Martin Luther King Jr.

https://www.standwithus.com/news/article.asp?id=2552

I would suggest plastic surgery for the left. So that they are then able to then fit perfectly both their own feet in their mouths.
Being as they are continually stuck there.

Laughing

Love the left, they end up handing you the best person who fought against social injustices, MLK.

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 5:55 am

Religious belief is no excuse for refusing to shake a teacher’s hand, authorities in a northern Swiss region ruled Wednesday, reversing one school’s controversial decision to grant exemptions for Muslim pupils unwilling to touch the opposite sex.

Parents of pupils who refuse to shake a teacher’s hand at schools in the northern Swiss canton of Basel-Country could now face fines of up to 5,000 Swiss francs ($5,000, 4,500 euros), regional education authorities ruled.

“A teacher has the right to demand a handshake,” they said in a statement.

The decision comes after a national uproar arose over revelations last month that a middle school allowed two Syrian brothers, aged 14 and 15 not to shake their teachers’ hands after they complained that doing so was counter to their religious beliefs if the teacher was a woman.

They argued that Islam does not permit physical contact with a person of the opposite sex, with the exception of certain immediate family members.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/swiss-school-officials-threaten-to-fine-Muslim-students-for-not-shaking-teachers-hands/

by veya_victaous Thu May 26, 2016 6:40 am

fucking weird
“A teacher has the right to demand a handshake,”

We'd be like a teacher that is demanding any physical contact is NOT A TEACHER ANYMORE banned for life and on a watch list.

To me is seem like an Assault on basic freedom to suggest anyone, but maybe a police officer, has a right to Demand you do anything. I can't see how the idea that a individual has a RIGTH to demand someone else partakes in physical contact that makes them uncomfortable, the idea that this applies adult demanding physical contact from minors is fucking crazy.

This is obviously a knee jerk reaction for racist hill shepherds the UN should be all over the Swiss for abusing human rights

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 7:34 am

I agree with the decision actually. It's more the reasoning behind the refusal to shake her hand which was the issue, and the reasoning was clearly not in keeping with Swiss cultural values. The Swiss are entitled to uphold their own culture.

If someone had a phobia about such contact, that would be different, although I would say they need to get over such a phobia pretty quickly.

by 'Wolfie Thu May 26, 2016 9:59 am

NOTHING NEW about the Swiss abusing 'human rights' though, is there ...

THEY HAVE been doing it on and off for hundreds of years..
Remember William Tell ? Back in the day, the resident autocratic/despot government propagandists were probablly labelling him as a traitor and a terrorist.

THEIR shameful performance during WWII was only another chapter in a long running saga of disgusting behaviours..

AS WITH their Teutonic/Germanic forebears and neighbours, it's practically a national sport over there !
I wouldn't wonder if it's not a compulsory subject in their schools -- alongside one's local choice of German/Italian/French, Maths and Business Principles 101..

Razz

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 10:10 am

The school in question had been obliged to exempt the boys from shaking hands with any male teacher too in order to avoid discrimination against female teachers. It's absurd that they had to do that in order to pander to a stupid custom which is completely sexist anyway. The school is now relieved that they don't have to do that any more.

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 10:30 am

Well, that all could have been handled by just handing over the diploma/certificate and a simple - smile with a nod of the head!
Good Grief, demanding that children 'TOUCH' grown ups upon demand --- INSANE! PERIOD.

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 10:36 am

It's only shaking hands FFS! It's a custom in Switzerland for pupils to shake hands with their teachers. They are probably taught to respect their teachers properly, which is a good thing.

by HoratioTarr Thu May 26, 2016 10:40 am

Why then do Muslims demand that we adhere and respect their rules in their countries? I've visited the Middle East several times, in particular Cairo, and if you don't adhere to those rules, even in that quite moderate country, you pay the price. You get hissed at. You get spat at. You get told to cover up. It's not part of my culture to cover my arms and legs and head, yet I have enough respect to do so in a Muslim country. Even if it were part of my religion, we all know that wouldn't be tolerated in a Muslim country. You cover up or else.

However...if I knew for sure that the refusal to shake hands was down to that Muslim man or boy respecting me so much as a woman that he would not dare or wish to touch me, that would be fine. But it seems to me Muslim men cherry pick this, and have no compunction about touching up a woman, or raping her, if he chooses to do so.

I'm sure there are many genuine devout Muslims who are doing this purely from being respectful, but equally, many who are doing it as a gesture just to put a woman in her place. Which is what this smacks of to me.

by HoratioTarr Thu May 26, 2016 10:42 am

Raggamuffin wrote:The school in question had been obliged to exempt the boys from shaking hands with any male teacher too in order to avoid discrimination against female teachers. It's absurd that they had to do that in order to pander to a stupid custom which is completely sexist anyway. The school is now relieved that they don't have to do that any more.

This is my problem with it. it's sexist, and discriminatory towards other cultures.

by HoratioTarr Thu May 26, 2016 10:44 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

NOTHING NEW about the Swiss abusing 'human rights' though, is there ...

THEY HAVE been doing it on and off for hundreds of years..
Remember William Tell ? Back in the day, the resident autocratic/despot government propagandists were probablly labelling him as a traitor and a terrorist.

THEIR shameful performance during WWII was only another chapter in a long running saga of disgusting behaviours..

AS WITH their Teutonic/Germanic forebears and neighbours, it's practically a national sport over there !
I wouldn't wonder if it's not a compulsory subject in their schools -- alongside one's local choice of German/Italian/French, Maths and Business Principles 101..

One only has to look at their cheese. Fucking hole making swines!

by Major Thu May 26, 2016 10:50 am

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

If ya don't like it **** off.

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 10:54 am

Raggamuffin wrote:It's only shaking hands FFS! It's a custom in Switzerland for pupils to shake hands with their teachers. They are probably taught to respect their teachers properly, which is a good thing.

Interesting - for someone always so hyper sensitive for any 'RELIGIOUS' bashing and yet when the truly religious stand by their culture & religious constrictions you 'waffle' like a weed in the wind and ignore their religious POV? Suspect

by Victorismyhero Thu May 26, 2016 10:58 am

Stormee wrote:When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

If ya don't like it **** off.

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 208

by HoratioTarr Thu May 26, 2016 10:59 am

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It's only shaking hands FFS! It's a custom in Switzerland for pupils to shake hands with their teachers. They are probably taught to respect their teachers properly, which is a good thing.

Interesting - for someone always so hyper sensitive for any 'RELIGIOUS' bashing and yet when the truly religious stand by their culture & religious constrictions you 'waffle' like a weed in the wind and ignore their religious POV?

Where has Ragga ever said she won't shake hands because of her religion?

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 11:01 am

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It's only shaking hands FFS! It's a custom in Switzerland for pupils to shake hands with their teachers. They are probably taught to respect their teachers properly, which is a good thing.

Interesting - for someone always so hyper sensitive for any 'RELIGIOUS' bashing and yet when the truly religious stand by their culture & religious constrictions you 'waffle' like a weed in the wind and ignore their religious POV?

Let's face it, if this involved two Christian boys, you and the others would be all over this thread saying that they should pull themselves together.

I support harmless religious customs, but I don't think this is harmless - it's disrespectful, sexist, and it goes against a well-established school custom in Switzerland. It's the thin edge of the wedge if they overlook such behaviour.

by Major Thu May 26, 2016 11:06 am

I see muzzzzizzzz meet in the local park and all shake hands with each other ALL the time.

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 11:33 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:

Interesting - for someone always so hyper sensitive for any 'RELIGIOUS' bashing and yet when the truly religious stand by their culture & religious constrictions you 'waffle' like a weed in the wind and ignore their religious POV?

Let's face it, if this involved two Christian boys, you and the others would be all over this thread saying that they should pull themselves together.

I support harmless religious customs, but I don't think this is harmless - it's disrespectful, sexist, and it goes against a well-established school custom in Switzerland. It's the thin edge of the wedge if they overlook such behaviour.

Well, again ...your assumption would be grossly incorrect; and my posts have been about allowing the boys to just accept their diplomas/certificates and move on!
I'm not the one that flounces about looking for any umbrage/innuendo that someone is knocking religion.
The boys have completed the necessary work - they passed the necessary exams and all they want is to just get that piece of paper and move on!
The Racial bleed over from their faith that they were born into speaks volumes about the 'how & why' so many of the British on here would consider this a "disrespectful, sexist, and going against well-established school customs" ...
Well, not surprising but interesting that the strength of FAITH doesn't hold over for what other humans draw from when it's their religion vs a countries custom --- but the true strength of FAITH is only as good as the believer proves in their daily lives Rolling Eyes

Thankfully this schools never had a physically impaired child: sans the hands/unable to move their extremities/hurt in a freak accident but had passed their school exam --- why they'd been publically humiliated with due diligence by many! Evil or Very Mad

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 11:38 am

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Let's face it, if this involved two Christian boys, you and the others would be all over this thread saying that they should pull themselves together.

I support harmless religious customs, but I don't think this is harmless - it's disrespectful, sexist, and it goes against a well-established school custom in Switzerland. It's the thin edge of the wedge if they overlook such behaviour.
Well, again ...your assumption would be grossly incorrect; and my posts have been about allowing the boys to just accept their diplomas/certificates and move on!
I'm not the one that flounces about looking for any umbrage/innuendo that someone is knocking religion.
The boys have completed the necessary work - they passed the necessary exams and all they want is to just get that piece of paper and move on!
The Racial bleed over from their faith that they were born into speaks volumes about the 'how & why' so many of the British on here would consider this a "disrespectful, sexist, and going against well-established school customs" ...
Well, not surprising but interesting that the strength of FAITH doesn't hold over for what other humans draw from when it's their religion vs a countries custom --- but the true strength of FAITH is only as good as the believer proves in their daily lives

Thankfully this schools never had a physically impaired child: sans the hands/unable to move their extremities/hurt in a freak accident but had passed their school exam --- why they'd been publically humiliated with due diligence by many!

According to the first article, it's the custom to shake hands with the teacher before and after class, so this wasn't just a one off involving a piece of paper.

Obviously, if someone was physically unable to shake hands, it would be different, but don't let that stop you introducing red herrings into your argument.

by eddie Thu May 26, 2016 11:47 am

HoratioTarr wrote:Why then do Muslims demand that we adhere and respect their rules in their countries? I've visited the Middle East several times, in particular Cairo, and if you don't adhere to those rules, even in that quite moderate country, you pay the price. You get hissed at. You get spat at. You get told to cover up. It's not part of my culture to cover my arms and legs and head, yet I have enough respect to do so in a Muslim country. Even if it were part of my religion, we all know that wouldn't be tolerated in a Muslim country. You cover up or else.

However...if I knew for sure that the refusal to shake hands was down to that Muslim man or boy respecting me so much as a woman that he would not dare or wish to touch me, that would be fine. But it seems to me Muslim men cherry pick this, and have no compunction about touching up a woman, or raping her, if he chooses to do so.

I'm sure there are many genuine devout Muslims who are doing this purely from being respectful, but equally, many who are doing it as a gesture just to put a woman in her place. Which is what this smacks of to me.

Good, well-rounded post. alien

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 11:57 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:
Well, again ...your assumption would be grossly incorrect; and my posts have been about allowing the boys to just accept their diplomas/certificates and move on!
I'm not the one that flounces about looking for any umbrage/innuendo that someone is knocking religion.
The boys have completed the necessary work - they passed the necessary exams and all they want is to just get that piece of paper and move on!
The Racial bleed over from their faith that they were born into speaks volumes about the 'how & why' so many of the British on here would consider this a "disrespectful, sexist, and going against well-established school customs" ...
Well, not surprising but interesting that the strength of FAITH doesn't hold over for what other humans draw from when it's their religion vs a countries custom --- but the true strength of FAITH is only as good as the believer proves in their daily lives

Thankfully this schools never had a physically impaired child: sans the hands/unable to move their extremities/hurt in a freak accident but had passed their school exam --- why they'd been publically humiliated with due diligence by many!

According to the first article, it's the custom to shake hands with the teacher before and after class, so this wasn't just a one off involving a piece of paper.

Obviously, if someone was physically unable to shake hands, it would be different, but don't let that stop you introducing red herrings into your argument.

Well, that a real 'KICK IN THE HEAD' ...never have I ever given you a {+} for a post on this thread - and then I just missed the quote button and gave you a + how's that for IRONY?

Well, as I've stated previously; we allow children of 'ANY' faith that have issues with the daily pledge of allegiance to remain seated through that daily event in all of our public schools ...because some well meaning bible thumping group insisted that the wording be changed to include the words 'One Nation Under GOD'.
So to me, this entire 'muchadoaboutnothing' and expecting children to be forced into handshakes; before/after/during any public school function is just insanity and is not what a school is/should be teaching.

Your judgements about how people post and the way people post is as always - immature and asinine: but true to form! Twisted Evil

by Raggamuffin Thu May 26, 2016 12:08 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

According to the first article, it's the custom to shake hands with the teacher before and after class, so this wasn't just a one off involving a piece of paper.

Obviously, if someone was physically unable to shake hands, it would be different, but don't let that stop you introducing red herrings into your argument.
Well, that a real 'KICK IN THE HEAD' ...never have I ever given you a {+} for a post on this thread - and then I just missed the quote button and gave you a + how's that for IRONY?

Well, as I've stated previously; we allow children of 'ANY' faith that have issues with the daily pledge of allegiance to remain seated through that daily event in all of our public schools ...because some well meaning bible thumping group insisted that the wording be changed to include the words 'One Nation Under GOD'.
So to me, this entire 'muchadoaboutnothing' and expecting children to be forced into handshakes; before/after/during any public school function is just insanity and is not what a school is/should be teaching.

Your judgements about how people post and the way people post is as always - immature and asinine: but true to form!

I find all your posts immature and asinine, so the feeling is mutual. I've given my opinion in a perfectly reasonable way, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. What happens in the US is nothing to do with it - go and write a letter to the President if you have a complaint.

by Guest Thu May 26, 2016 12:18 pm

Religious belief is no excuse for refusing to shake a teacher’s hand, authorities in a northern Swiss region ruled Wednesday, reversing one school’s controversial decision to grant exemptions for Muslim pupils unwilling to touch the opposite sex.

Parents of pupils who refuse to shake a teacher’s hand at schools in the northern Swiss canton of Basel-Country could now face fines of up to 5,000 Swiss francs ($5,000, 4,500 euros), regional education authorities ruled.

“A teacher has the right to demand a handshake,” they said in a statement.

The decision comes after a national uproar arose over revelations last month that a middle school allowed two Syrian brothers, aged 14 and 15 not to shake their teachers’ hands after they complained that doing so was counter to their religious beliefs if the teacher was a woman.

They argued that Islam does not permit physical contact with a person of the opposite sex, with the exception of certain immediate family members.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/swiss-school-officials-threaten-to-fine-Muslim-students-for-not-shaking-teachers-hands/

Missed this due to having Didgy-dooer on ignore:

So to my POV and the recent posts from a few 'RACIAL' biased members on here; the decision to 'overturn' a schools decision to allow the Islamic faithful a 'pass' on the handshake BS is now enforcing 'Government' control over an education system ...and that's OK vs just allowing the schools to handle it as they had? Suspect

WOW, that will be quite the flip/flop for some 'faithful - thinkers' if they ever have to face such a real life dilemma and can't slide their belief into a dresser draw for safe keeping! Rolling Eyes

by Victorismyhero Thu May 26, 2016 2:59 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:
Well, again ...your assumption would be grossly incorrect; and my posts have been about allowing the boys to just accept their diplomas/certificates and move on!
I'm not the one that flounces about looking for any umbrage/innuendo that someone is knocking religion.
The boys have completed the necessary work - they passed the necessary exams and all they want is to just get that piece of paper and move on!
The Racial bleed over from their faith that they were born into speaks volumes about the 'how & why' so many of the British on here would consider this a "disrespectful, sexist, and going against well-established school customs" ...
Well, not surprising but interesting that the strength of FAITH doesn't hold over for what other humans draw from when it's their religion vs a countries custom --- but the true strength of FAITH is only as good as the believer proves in their daily lives

Thankfully this schools never had a physically impaired child: sans the hands/unable to move their extremities/hurt in a freak accident but had passed their school exam --- why they'd been publically humiliated with due diligence by many!

According to the first article, it's the custom to shake hands with the teacher before and after class, so this wasn't just a one off involving a piece of paper.

Obviously, if someone was physically unable to shake hands, it would be different, but don't let that stop you introducing red herrings into your argument.
Well, that a real 'KICK IN THE HEAD' ...never have I ever given you a {+} for a post on this thread - and then I just missed the quote button and gave you a + how's that for IRONY?

Well, as I've stated previously; we allow children of 'ANY' faith that have issues with the daily pledge of allegiance to remain seated through that daily event in all of our public schools ...because some well meaning bible thumping group insisted that the wording be changed to include the words 'One Nation Under GOD'.
So to me, this entire 'muchadoaboutnothing' and expecting children to be forced into handshakes; before/after/during any public school function is just insanity and is not what a school is/should be teaching.

Your judgements about how people post and the way people post is as always - immature and asinine: but true to form!

however,this has nothing to do with bible thumpers insisting on the INCLUSION of a "religious" theme/reason

quite the reverse.....In THIS case the bible thumpers (actually quoran thumpers) are the ones doing the "insisting"

funny how yet again the lefties "excuse islam" and its obnoxious ways, whilst at the same time "shifting the balme" to christianity and ITS obnoxious ways....

by Ben Reilly Fri May 27, 2016 5:49 pm

Stormee wrote:I see muzzzzizzzz meet in the local park and all shake hands with each other ALL the time.

Is it men and women shaking one another's hands? Do you know whether they're related or married?

by eddie Fri May 27, 2016 5:53 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Stormee wrote:I see muzzzzizzzz meet in the local park and all shake hands with each other ALL the time.

Is it men and women shaking one another's hands? Do you know whether they're related or married?

Good God! People meeting up and shaking hands.
Whatever next?

You should report them storm. Rolling Eyes

by Ben Reilly Fri May 27, 2016 6:06 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Stormee wrote:I see muzzzzizzzz meet in the local park and all shake hands with each other ALL the time.

Is it men and women shaking one another's hands? Do you know whether they're related or married?

Good God! People meeting up and shaking hands.
Whatever next?

You should report them storm.

I think he's trying to hammer home the idea that the reason muzzzizzzz don't shake with Westerners is because they look down on them, rather than it being a cultural norm for them.

by HoratioTarr Fri May 27, 2016 6:42 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:

Good God! People meeting up and shaking hands.
Whatever next?

You should report them storm.

I think he's trying to hammer home the idea that the reason muzzzizzzz don't shake with Westerners is because they look down on them, rather than it being a cultural norm for them.

All this bollocks is down to sex, possession of women as chattel and a man's inability to accept responsibility for his own desires. It's a woman's fault if a man fancies a shag, basically. That's what all this 'modesty' malarky in the Qu'ran is about. Sex. It's ok though when you reach old age, apparently.

"Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage, there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty; but it is best for them to be modest and Allah is the One who sees and knows all things." [Noble Quran 24:60]

According to Maulana Maududi these commandments apply in respect of young women. He says, "It is lawful to sit with women of advanced age in privacy and touching them is also not prohibited. It has been reported that Sayyiduna Abu Bakr used to visit the clan where he had been suckled and shook hands with the old women. It has been reported that Sayyidina 'Abdullah ibn Zubair used to have his feet and head pressed gently for relief by an old woman. This distinction between old and young women itself shows that the real object is to prevent such mixing of the sexes as may lead to evil results."

by Ben Reilly Fri May 27, 2016 7:34 pm

Islam enforces modesty rules for men as well. It's a "sex is evil" thing more than anything else.

by Guest Fri May 27, 2016 7:50 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Islam enforces modesty rules for men as well. It's a "sex is evil" thing more than anything else.

Yet its the women that have to near completely cover up and based on the belief they are at fault for their beauty.
I mean talk about a religion admitting a deity created a flaw in humans. To the point he created them according to Muslims that men are so pathetic, they cannot control themselves at the sight and beauty of women. Now if based on him existing, either he created this deliberately, thus making some sick twisted bastard, that shames women for their beauty, making this deity the most misogynistic deity of them all, or he simply is that crap and created humans with untold flaws, which would render then this deity being responsible for its mistakes.

Anyway you are again defending a backward view formed from the 7th century that certainly indoctrinates women to believe they are at fault for the uncontrolled desires of men. Even worse mant women are forced to cover up against their will.

by Ben Reilly Fri May 27, 2016 8:48 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Islam enforces modesty rules for men as well. It's a "sex is evil" thing more than anything else.

Yet its the women that have to near completely cover up and based on the belief they are at fault for their beauty.
I mean talk about a religion admitting a deity created a flaw in humans. To the point he created them according to Muslims that men are so pathetic, they cannot control themselves at the sight and beauty of women. Now if based on him existing, either he created this deliberately, thus making some sick twisted bastard, that shames women for their beauty, making this deity the most misogynistic deity of them all, or he simply is that crap and created humans with untold flaws, which would render then this deity being responsible for its mistakes.

Anyway you are again defending a backward view formed from the 7th century that certainly indoctrinates women to believe they are at fault for the uncontrolled desires of men. Even worse mant women are forced to cover up against their will.

I'm stating facts, Didge, not defending anything. Just to clue you in, I don't generally defend practices by saying that they stem from the belief that sex is evil.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 27, 2016 8:53 pm

Koran [5:52] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily, Allah guides not the unjust people.

Koran [9:29] Fight the unbelievers, those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, even if they are the People of the Book (christians/jews), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

by Guest Fri May 27, 2016 8:57 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Yet its the women that have to near completely cover up and based on the belief they are at fault for their beauty.
I mean talk about a religion admitting a deity created a flaw in humans. To the point he created them according to Muslims that men are so pathetic, they cannot control themselves at the sight and beauty of women. Now if based on him existing, either he created this deliberately, thus making some sick twisted bastard, that shames women for their beauty, making this deity the most misogynistic deity of them all, or he simply is that crap and created humans with untold flaws, which would render then this deity being responsible for its mistakes.

Anyway you are again defending a backward view formed from the 7th century that certainly indoctrinates women to believe they are at fault for the uncontrolled desires of men. Even worse mant women are forced to cover up against their will.

I'm stating facts, Didge, not defending anything. Just to clue you in, I don't generally defend practices by saying that they stem from the belief that sex is evil.

Odd, as I ma yet to see you be in any way critical of this belief and yet make excuses instead claiming a comparability to Muslim men, which there is no comparability, when they do not wear the face veil or are blamed as women are

by Tommy Monk Fri May 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Islam enforces modesty rules for men as well. It's a "sex is evil" thing more than anything else.

Rubbish... tell that to all the christian and Yazhidi women/girls being raped in syria/Iraq and being openly sold in sex slave markets... tell that to all the white British women and children who have been raped and abused by Muslims over the last 15 years... tell that to the Nigerian schoolgirls... tell that to the women and girls in Sweden where Muslim immigrant men have been raping them so much over recent years that sweden is now the rape capital of the world!!!

by Guest Fri May 27, 2016 9:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Islam enforces modesty rules for men as well. It's a "sex is evil" thing more than anything else.
Rubbish... tell that to all the christian and Yazhidi women/girls being raped in syria/Iraq and being openly sold in sex slave markets... tell that to all the white British women and children who have been raped and abused by Muslims over the last 15 years... tell that to the Nigerian schoolgirls... tell that to the women and girls in Sweden where Muslim immigrant men have been raping them so much over recent years that sweden is now the rape capital of the world!!!

Awww, Tommy ...you do get up on your 'high horse' about Islamic & Muslim issues all the while I'm reading global stories about my ♀ being kidnapped/traded/sexually used & abused as they have since time began by none other than your very own ♂ and it still goes on in this the 21st century.
Even in my very own refined country The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 1858517897

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 1858517897

...so we can't just 'blame-game' one faith based group of humans --- YOU DEVIENT MEN seem to be twisted in the worst perverted ways Suspect

by Tommy Monk Fri May 27, 2016 9:54 pm

Islam condones the enslavement and rape of non Muslim girls and women...

by Guest Fri May 27, 2016 10:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Islam condones the enslavement and rape of non Muslim girls and women...

And there seems to be a huge section of your 'MALE SPECIES' around the world that are making serious monetary gain from the kidnapping/sales/trade of young children for sex and slave labor Rolling Eyes

I can't do a dam thing about those mental-midgets either Evil or Very Mad

But I will not and cannot bash one faith because some are able to cherry pick what they deem to be abhorrent printed texts in the faith based books that those religions use; I know some Muslims - I know some Islamic - I know some very scary Hard Wired Bible Thumpers too Rolling Eyes

And what they scream & preach from their pulpits on Sunday that make the issues you have such a far shade of pale gray to what you condemn --- as to be written by the same mind, only spoken in an different tongue! Suspect

by Tommy Monk Fri May 27, 2016 11:29 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Islam condones the enslavement and rape of non Muslim girls and women...

And there seems to be a huge section of your 'MALE SPECIES' around the world that are making serious monetary gain from the kidnapping/sales/trade of young children for sex and slave labor

I can't do a dam thing about those mental-midgets either
But I will not and cannot bash one faith because some are able to cherry pick what they deem to be abhorrent printed texts in the faith based books that those religions use; I know some Muslims - I know some Islamic - I know some very scary Hard Wired Bible Thumpers too
And what they scream & preach from their pulpits on Sunday that make the issues you have such a far shade of pale gray to what you condemn --- as to be written by the same mind, only spoken in an different tongue!

So you will not condemn a 'religion' that specifically authorises its followers to carry out the enslavement and rape/abuse of (non following) women/girls..!?

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 12:31 am

I can tell you unequavilically that 'I' do not personally know any of my Islamic friends or Muslim friends that adhere to those heinous sections of that part of their printed faith ---

Yet, I can tell you without any doubt that I know many on my FB listing - a few on my other forums - some on here - quite a few of my neighbors that will post/say the most repugnant/heinous things about blacks/Muslims/Islamic/Burka wearing women and young children/LGBT humans that make me sick to my stomach. Twisted Evil

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 Friday10

by Tommy Monk Sat May 28, 2016 12:51 am

Irrelevant... plenty do... and it is expressly legislated for and condoned in their 'religious' guide book...

You know that book...?

The one that is supposed to be the written instructions of 'allah'... as 'revealed' to the murdering peadophile 'prophet' who robbed and raped and murdered his way around the middle east with his gang of bandits... and is supposed to be 'perfect in every way'...!?

Why are they 'cherry picking' parts of their 'religion' to follow...!?

Are they saying that the koran is somehow... wrong...!?

Parts of it are... evil...!?

lol!

by Ben Reilly Sat May 28, 2016 1:07 am

Paul Ettinger wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Yet its the women that have to near completely cover up and based on the belief they are at fault for their beauty.
I mean talk about a religion admitting a deity created a flaw in humans. To the point he created them according to Muslims that men are so pathetic, they cannot control themselves at the sight and beauty of women. Now if based on him existing, either he created this deliberately, thus making some sick twisted bastard, that shames women for their beauty, making this deity the most misogynistic deity of them all, or he simply is that crap and created humans with untold flaws, which would render then this deity being responsible for its mistakes.

Anyway you are again defending a backward view formed from the 7th century that certainly indoctrinates women to believe they are at fault for the uncontrolled desires of men. Even worse mant women are forced to cover up against their will.

I'm stating facts, Didge, not defending anything. Just to clue you in, I don't generally defend practices by saying that they stem from the belief that sex is evil.

Odd, as I ma yet to see you be in any way critical of this belief and yet make excuses instead claiming a comparability to Muslim men, which there is no comparability, when they do not wear the face veil or are blamed as women are

Modesty is commanded of both genders. And saying something is based on a belief that sex is evil is a criticism of that thing.

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 6:39 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:

Odd, as I ma yet to see you be in any way critical of this belief and yet make excuses instead claiming a comparability to Muslim men, which there is no comparability, when they do not wear the face veil or are blamed as women are

Modesty is commanded of both genders. And saying something is based on a belief that sex is evil is a criticism of that thing.

Gibberish, as by bringing up both male and female and failing to see the massive disparity between the both, is again defending the belief, by trying to downplaythe issue itself.

by Major Sat May 28, 2016 10:56 am

Another foot for them on the rung of OUR ladder if they get away with it..

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 4:44 pm

Stormee wrote:Another foot for them on the rung of OUR ladder if they get away with it..

Is this the reason that the Protestants VS Catholics took so long to resolve in Ireland The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 2190311264

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 2190311264

It's a serious question; who has the right to the 'LAND' if we all are from the same human life form - don't we need to find the COMMONALITY and try to get along?

But here's a twist ...wouldn't those 'rigid Islamic & women controlling Muslim men' have a greater fear that their young people would be lead astray by all of the influence from the western culture - then we do to be afraid of what they bring to us?
Think about that Stormee; even the Jews that flooded into our American shores saw a slow but progressive of their younger generation leaving the ole' ways and trying newer and more modern: attire/dating/religious habits --- not all but some stopped attending their Jewish customs altogether and it made for a blended 'NEW GROUP' of modern Jewish faithful.
You can't see this happening with the newer refugee's?

by Victorismyhero Sat May 28, 2016 4:59 pm

it seems the (very real) possibility of being buried alive etc has a "chiiling effect" on such "extra faith" excursions 4ever......

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 5:06 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Stormee wrote:Another foot for them on the rung of OUR ladder if they get away with it..

Is this the reason that the Protestants VS Catholics took so long to resolve in Ireland
It's a serious question; who has the right to the 'LAND' if we all are from the same human life form - don't we need to find the COMMONALITY and try to get along?

But here's a twist ...wouldn't those 'rigid Islamic & women controlling Muslim men' have a greater fear that their young people would be lead astray by all of the influence from the western culture - then we do to be afraid of what they bring to us?
Think about that Stormee; even the Jews that flooded into our American shores saw a slow but progressive of their younger generation leaving the ole' ways and trying newer and more modern: attire/dating/religious habits --- not all but some stopped attending their Jewish customs altogether and it made for a blended 'NEW GROUP' of modern Jewish faithful.
You can't see this happening with the newer refugee's?

And that was very much the case of the Asian Muslims that came over in the 50's 60's and 70's, who integrated very much with society, but over the last 15 years in has come some Muslim immgrants who hold a far more ultra conservative Islam.
How ever it is the Muslim students of today who are of the gravest concern in Europe. As many are buying into conspiracies, naratives of hate online based around the West trying to destroy Islam. It is off this that many are being drawn to a more hardline Islam, as well as the exportation of Wahhabism for years by th Saudi's, has had a damaging effect within European countries. They have flooded the countries and online with scholars, imans, conspiracies, naratives etc all based around making Muslims fear and play off this to draw them into their circle of hardline Islam. As if here they will feel safe from threat. The Universities are allowing some of the worst hate preadhers to hold talks, with nobody to counter their naratives of hate. This has gone on for years and the culmination has now seen a seperate group of Muslims in this country that hold views that completely conflict with western society. Many countries have been naive to how and what schools, Mosques ect have been funded by the likes of Saudi with Wahhabism. Unless these issues are tackled and many more progressive Muslims stand up and challenge these preachers and scholars, the problem is going to continue to grow worse.

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 5:35 pm

Paul Ettinger wrote:
4EVER2 wrote:
Is this the reason that the Protestants VS Catholics took so long to resolve in Ireland
It's a serious question; who has the right to the 'LAND' if we all are from the same human life form - don't we need to find the COMMONALITY and try to get along?

But here's a twist ...wouldn't those 'rigid Islamic & women controlling Muslim men' have a greater fear that their young people would be lead astray by all of the influence from the western culture - then we do to be afraid of what they bring to us?
Think about that Stormee; even the Jews that flooded into our American shores saw a slow but progressive of their younger generation leaving the ole' ways and trying newer and more modern: attire/dating/religious habits --- not all but some stopped attending their Jewish customs altogether and it made for a blended 'NEW GROUP' of modern Jewish faithful.
You can't see this happening with the newer refugee's?
And that was very much the case of the Asian Muslims that came over in the 50's 60's and 70's, who integrated very much with society, but over the last 15 years in has come some Muslim immgrants who hold a far more ultra conservative Islam.
How ever it is the Muslim students of today who are of the gravest concern in Europe. As many are buying into conspiracies, naratives of hate online based around the West trying to destroy Islam. It is off this that many are being drawn to a more hardline Islam, as well as the exportation of Wahhabism for years by th Saudi's, has had a damaging effect within European countries. They have flooded the countries and online with scholars, imans, conspiracies, naratives etc all based around making Muslims fear and play off this to draw them into their circle of hardline Islam. As if here they will feel safe from threat. The Universities are allowing some of the worst hate preadhers to hold talks, with nobody to counter their naratives of hate. This has gone on for years and the culmination has now seen a seperate group of Muslims in this country that hold views that completely conflict with western society. Many countries have been naive to how and what schools, Mosques ect have been funded by the likes of Saudi with Wahhabism. Unless these issues are tackled and many more progressive Muslims stand up and challenge these preachers and scholars, the problem is going to continue to grow worse.**

**Didn't we just trash another topic about the 'moderate Muslim women' being vocal and using a media source to explain their POV; 'We Are All Not Terrorists', or something along those lines {I paraphrased} --- remember the way that thread went to CRAP so quickly!

So those groups are out there - I believe it and I hear them on my PRB {public radio broadcast service} but are the vast majority of people paying any attention

Do any of the major news media give those groups the same equal air time that the terrorist garner

Are we being spoon fed only one side of this religious/terrorist war Twisted Evil

I do acknowledge your point about a 'FEW' of our young people becoming enamored by the hatemongers within the Islamic & Muslim faith ...but doesn't that happen in any religious sect? And if the percentages were to the advantage of the terrorist then my own country would be inundated with more then just the few that have become radicalized by the brainwashing sights they found on the internet.

According to a recent study (based on the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion) by The Pew Forum, there are:

2,173,180,000 Christians (31% of world population), of which 50% are Catholic, 37% Protestant, 12% Orthodox, and 1% other.
1,598,510,000 Muslims (23%), of which 87-90% are Sunnis, 10-13% Shia.
1,126,500,000 No Religion affiliation (16%): atheists, agnostics and people who do not identify with any particular religion. One-in-five people (20%) in the United States are religiously unaffiliated.
1,033,080,000 Hindus (15%), the overwhelming majority (94%) of which live in India.
   487,540,000 Buddhists (7%), of which half live in China.
   405,120,000 Folk Religionists (6%): faiths that are closely associated with a particular group of people, ethnicity or tribe.
      58,110,000 Other Religions (1%): Baha’i faith, Taoism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Zoroastrianism and many others.
      13,850,000 Jews (0.2%), four-fifths of which live in two countries: United States (41%) and Israel (41%).
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#religions

Yes, your POV about the 'freedom of speech' on college campuses has allowed lots of negative groups access to such vile/hate mongers ...but that's not to say that the quiet - moderates aren't out there working/organizing/collecting more membership numbers; just because you aren't reading about their public displays and mob type activity.
You can't and won't eradicate EVIL thinking humans; they are able to sniff each other out and gather in groups ...it's what the lesser thinking humans do best.

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 5:48 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Paul Ettinger wrote:
And that was very much the case of the Asian Muslims that came over in the 50's 60's and 70's, who integrated very much with society, but over the last 15 years in has come some Muslim immgrants who hold a far more ultra conservative Islam.
How ever it is the Muslim students of today who are of the gravest concern in Europe. As many are buying into conspiracies, naratives of hate online based around the West trying to destroy Islam. It is off this that many are being drawn to a more hardline Islam, as well as the exportation of Wahhabism for years by th Saudi's, has had a damaging effect within European countries. They have flooded the countries and online with scholars, imans, conspiracies, naratives etc all based around making Muslims fear and play off this to draw them into their circle of hardline Islam. As if here they will feel safe from threat. The Universities are allowing some of the worst hate preadhers to hold talks, with nobody to counter their naratives of hate. This has gone on for years and the culmination has now seen a seperate group of Muslims in this country that hold views that completely conflict with western society. Many countries have been naive to how and what schools, Mosques ect have been funded by the likes of Saudi with Wahhabism. Unless these issues are tackled and many more progressive Muslims stand up and challenge these preachers and scholars, the problem is going to continue to grow worse.**
**Didn't we just trash another topic about the 'moderate Muslim women' being vocal and using a media source to explain their POV; 'We Are All Not Terrorists', or something along those lines {I paraphrased} --- remember the way that thread went to CRAP so quickly!
Paul Ettinger wrote: Missing all the points made completely and the fact you are American, its of no surprise you have no idea od the extent of the problem.
In time you will see the effects in American, like with CAIR for example, which is led and funded by the Muslim Brotherhood.
Who's goal is Islamic domination.
So those groups are out there - I believe it and I hear them on my PRB {public radio broadcast service} but are the vast majority of people paying any attention
Do any of the major news media give those groups the same equal air time that the terrorist garner
Are we being spoon fed only one side of this religious/terrorist war
Paul Ettinger wrote: Zero relevance to the points I am making and yes some of the media do give air time to these problems, though not enough

I do acknowledge your point about a 'FEW' of our young people becoming enamored by the hatemongers within the Islamic & Muslim faith ...but doesn't that happen in any religious sect? And if the percentages were to the advantage of the terrorist then my own country would be inundated with more then just the few that have become radicalized by the brainwashing sights they found on the internet.
According to a recent study (based on the 2010 world population of 6.9 billion) by The Pew Forum, there are:

2,173,180,000 Christians (31% of world population), of which 50% are Catholic, 37% Protestant, 12% Orthodox, and 1% other.
1,598,510,000 Muslims (23%), of which 87-90% are Sunnis, 10-13% Shia.
1,126,500,000 No Religion affiliation (16%): atheists, agnostics and people who do not identify with any particular religion. One-in-five people (20%) in the United States are religiously unaffiliated.
1,033,080,000 Hindus (15%), the overwhelming majority (94%) of which live in India.
   487,540,000 Buddhists (7%), of which half live in China.
   405,120,000 Folk Religionists (6%): faiths that are closely associated with a particular group of people, ethnicity or tribe.
      58,110,000 Other Religions (1%): Baha’i faith, Taoism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Zoroastrianism and many others.
      13,850,000 Jews (0.2%), four-fifths of which live in two countries: United States (41%) and Israel (41%).
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#religions

Yes, your POV about the 'freedom of speech' on college campuses has allowed lots of negative groups access to such vile/hate mongers ...but that's not to say that the quiet - moderates aren't out there working/organizing/collecting more membership numbers; just because you aren't reading about their public displays and mob type activity.
You can't and won't eradicate EVIL thinking humans; they are able to sniff each other out and gather in groups ...it's what the lesser thinking humans do best.

Absurd reasoning as we do not see countless terrorism from other religious groups. There certainly is persecution of Muslims in China, and Burma for example, but the point you are making holds no validity and I was not even talking about terrorism, but a group that see themselves apart from society which holds hardline Islamic views. Not all Neo Conservative Muslims are terrorist, but they hold views that are in conflict with equality and the well being of others.
That is problematic and even more so for the women, homosexuals, religious minorities, athiests etc. You can even see for yourselves where some former Muslims have left the faith and have been ostracized by their families and the community they lived in. We have scholars coming where men and women and segregated in seatings, preaching antisemitism, hate against the west etc. I have no issue with speakers, but they should have people to challenge their views, but you simple have failed tro understand any of the points being made to you. There is countless hate and conspiracies based around a lie that claims the west is out to destroy Islam and it makes many Muslims believe wrongly that Muslim terrorists were not behind attacks, but the west. Its making them being led by fera, which is easily done being as the whole religion is based off fear. So you need to understand that since wealthy Muslim countries have been pouring money into schools and Mosques, they then basically control them. This is why we saw so many schools failed by Ofsted over the fact they were teaching Islamic doctrine counter to western laws and the equality and well being of others

by Guest Sat May 28, 2016 9:50 pm

Absurd reasoning as we do not see countless terrorism from other religious groups.
Right - because in your mind the ONLY terrorist are just fill in the blank as need be but claim religious authority to whomever is in charge at the time: AlQuada/Talaban/ISIL etc., etc., etc.,
That is problematic and even more so for the women, homosexuals, religious minorities, athiests etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the disconnect ...you don't get to read & hear all of the right leaning rhetoric that gets spewed by our rabid bible thumpers over here: they hate our POTUS/GLBT/Satan is coming and it's all because of all of the aforementioned groups/same sex marriage and it's fills up our FB pages/nightly news feeds/daily news links ...NON STOP And you keep thumping around about Muslims! WOW, you should have so few issues to worry about

You can even see for yourselves where some former Muslims have left the faith and have been ostracized by their families and the community they lived in.
Who are you lecturing to now; I seem to be the only one responding to your diatribe and that's about to cease shortly. You don't think that the Mormons/Amish/Quakers all suffer this same form of 'shunning' here in America; big shock but that often happens in every religion!

We have scholars coming where men and women and segregated in seatings, preaching antisemitism, hate against the west etc. -----------------------------------
Sweet Jesus, you really do have a fixation about this ...perhaps getting out and enjoying some community service/learning some social skills and find out that while you seem fixated about this issue and continue to beat the drum about it --- you're hyper hysteria has little of any value to change what has taken place for centuries.

There is countless hate and conspiracies based around a lie that claims the west is out to destroy Islam and it makes many Muslims believe wrongly that Muslim terrorists were not behind attacks, but the west. ----------------------------------------
Yipper, and on any given Sunday you'll get a full blown hysteria driven rant by some religious nut job screaming about the 'LIBERALS' are driving the USA straight into HELL and the GLBT are at the wheel with our POTUS and all the blacks paving the way.
And they get enough liquor & bible adrenalin running in those veins and some Planned Parenthood gets torched/bombed or a PP Clinic gets their physicians and nurses shot up and killed.
And all you find to rant on about is how 'I' need to hear what you deem worthy to lecture this community about ~~~ Not hardly, your limited POV about the world and the way things work is not something I want to follow! EVER...

So you need to understand that since wealthy Muslim countries have been pouring money into schools and Mosques, they then basically control them. ------------------

Sorry, Didgy-dooer...I really don't need to understand basically anything you fear - your restricted/anti-social POV is pretty F'd up and doesn't need a 'TEAM'! The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 202592697

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 6 202592697

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