The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Earlier this month, I posted about how two Muslim boys in Switzerland were at the center of controversy because they refused to shake their female teacher’s hand before and after class. They didn’t want to follow the longtime Swiss tradition because their religion, they claim, won’t allow them to touch women who aren’t family members.

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 3 Shutterstock_377118703

Administrators at the school compromised by saying the boys didn’t have to shake the hands of any of their teachers male or female, which only angered the public even more.
And now it may be getting even worse for the boys:

The family of the two teenagers, who refused to shake their female teachers’ hands for religious reasons, have had their application for citizenship suspended. A spokesperson for the local security authorities said that the office for migration in canton Basel Country would be speaking to family members individually, and that it was not unusual for an application to be suspended while additional information was gathered.

I want to believe this is normal behavior, but who knows. If it’s tied in any way to the boys’ actions, I would find it a gross overreaction. As I said before, students shouldn’t be forced to participate in traditions that go against their beliefs, no matter what their reasons are. I’m certainly not defending the students’ faith-based sexism; I just don’t find this tradition worth all the fuss. It doesn’t matter if you’re not standing for the Pledge or not shaking a female teacher’s hand. None of it has any bearing on your education.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/04/22/the-swiss-citizenship-of-two-Muslim-boys-is-at-risk-after-handshake-controversy/

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:48 pm

eddie wrote:I suppose you're right in one way but in another....fundamentally and as a human, I wouldn't want to always shake someone's hand

I think of I were the boy's lawyer that's the angle I'd go for lol

WHAT???? and then have the boys subject to a possible counter suit for making unspecified allegations about this female teacher

can you immagine...

well YOUR lawyer says you dont like this teacher...perhaps you had better specify WHY????

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:48 pm

Come on, pucker up......everyone!!

The Swiss Citizenship of Two Muslim Boys is At Risk After Handshake Controversy - Page 3 1069003512

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:52 pm

sassy wrote:Codswallop, why should anyone be forced to shake anyone else's hand if they don't want to. What next - you will kiss them or else!

erm lw histrionics???

since when has kissing been a recognised SOCIAL (I.E non intimate) greeting. Ok some parts of the world it is, but I dont think the swiss indulge or us for that matter.....

of course I COULD answer you in your own style,

refuse to shake hands??? ...what next , throwing gays off roofs???? Rolling Eyes

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:53 pm

As I said...a full on salaam will do nicely as a replacement.....

but I do somehow doubt they will accept THAT either.....

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:55 pm

their issue is doubless more a refusal to show respect to a FEMALE who is superior (in the academic setting) to them

they are fundamentally incapable of doing so......

by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:56 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:I wonder what Bens answer would be to stormee if he said he wouldnt shake hands with a gay??

see didge...Its ONLY a non issue when it suits a particular agenda.....otherwise heaven help you....

I certainly would NOT be in favor of forcing Stormee to shake a gay person's hand, or forcing anybody to shake hands with anybody else.
THAT answer I count as evasion .....perhaps I'd best rephrase it.....what would your opinion of some one be if .............

or as didge asked if one of your KKK types refused to shake hands with a black on the basis that doing so "offends" them...

hmmm?

but to continue
but you ARE in favour of forcing ME to accept that such uncivil behaviour is right and proper

Would you be in favor of forcing someone to lightly pat another person's backside, if in that country, lightly patting someone's backside was an old and venerable tradition?

when in rome.......

My opinion of someone who refused to shake hands with someone they were prejudiced against would be that they're a bigot. Are the Muslim boys prejudiced against their teacher? Or do they wish to follow the teachings of their religion?

So if you enter another culture, you should be forced to do things you don't want to do because "when in Rome"? Spoken like a true authoritarian control freak.

by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:57 pm

Lord Foul wrote:their issue is doubless more a refusal to show respect to a FEMALE who is superior (in the academic setting) to them

they are fundamentally incapable of doing so......

Yet they sit in her class and apparently take instruction from a female teacher ...

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:57 pm

I used to work in a place where we had a lot of Orthodox Jews, the men were not allowed to look at the women who they came in (it was a dentists)
When I worked on the reception desk they'd book appointments without once, looking at me.

by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:58 pm

eddie wrote:Come on, pucker up......everyone!!

Bag of worms, can of cats:

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:58 pm

so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:02 pm

The video

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:03 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:their issue is doubless more a refusal to show respect to a FEMALE who is superior (in the academic setting) to them

they are fundamentally incapable of doing so......

Yet they sit in her class and apparently take instruction from a female teacher ...

one can sit and absorb information from anyone...with OR without respect....

I mean I would not refuse to learn something I desired to do so from say an astrophysicist who was a convicted paedophile.....but I wouldnt respect him as a person AT ALL....
similarly I could talk philosophy and theoplogy all day with a religious "expert" I wouldnt necessariily have to respect him OR his views

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:05 pm

eddie wrote:The video

yeah, another lefty response to being kicked....

reductio ad absurdum.....

they think it makes them
a) clever
and
b) right

it does neither.......

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:07 pm

I wouldn't be taught anyhing by anybody, whom I didn't respect.
There's the difference.

by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:07 pm

Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:09 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

That's a dream I hold in my heart but I'm not sure it works

by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:12 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

That's a dream I hold in my heart but I'm not sure it works

I'm not saying that's my hope for Monday morning, but I think it's a worthy ideal to work toward.

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:14 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

because the world doesnt work like that???
because the world CANT work like that
because inevitably, like runs with like

and what YOU want/expect may not be what someone else wants /expects, so we live in "bubbles" of "likeness" called countries and nations....

what happens to your beautiful dream when what YOU want clashes with what I want...and there are no laws to cover it save "local custom" i.e what the MAJORITY of folks in that area do??? or are we heading once again for the lefty dream of worldwide sameness and "little grey men in little grey boxes" etc.......

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:16 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

That's a dream I hold in my heart but I'm not sure it works

I'm not saying that's my hope for Monday morning, but I think it's a worthy ideal to work toward.

It definitely ain't working on a Monday morning Ben. Better aim for at least Thursday.

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:16 pm

eddie wrote:I wouldn't be taught anyhing by anybody, whom I didn't respect.
There's the difference.

so you would rather remain in ignorance than learn if given the chance....

It is possible to respect a persons knowlege...without respecting the person.....

by Tommy Monk Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:18 pm

If you go to Thailand... it is considered an insult and the height of bad manners to show the soles of your bare feet to other people... so if you were in their country you would avoid offending anyone in this way...

Other places it is considered an insult and the height of bad manners to refuse to shake someone's hand... if you are a guest in those countries you would avoid offending anyone in this way... wouldn't you...!?

by eddie Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:18 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
eddie wrote:I wouldn't be taught anyhing by anybody, whom I didn't respect.
There's the difference.

so you would rather remain in ignorance than learn if given the chance....

It is possible to respect a persons knowlege...without respecting the person.....

The two go hand in hand for me.
I can't learn from someone I don't respect (and like)

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:If you go to Thailand... it is considered an insult and the height of bad manners to show the soles of your bare feet to other people... so if you were in their country you would avoid offending anyone in this way...

Other places it is considered an insult and the height of bad manners to refuse to shake someone's hand... if you are a guest in those countries you would avoid offending anyone in this way... wouldn't you...!?

apparantly not if you are a leftys pet Tommy....in which case you can do as you like.....

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:26 pm

but I note with interest that my solution is being studiously ignored, becasue it touches on the real truth of the matter, that this is ACTUALLY a matter of respect for the authority of a FEMALE teacher.

as said (twice now) they could, quite easily and reasonably substitute the full salaam for the hand shake....
which I'm sure would be quite acceptable, both to the teacher AND the school authorities....

of course it wont, for some obscure reason, be acceptable to THEM.....

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:28 pm

How the hell do you know that? Have they been asked? Show me where they have been asked?

You don't even know if they offered to do that.

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:39 pm

want to lay odds....

I recon I'm backing a cert....

I dont have your lovey dovey what wonderful folk they all are view

and in any case ...WHY should they be asked.....

they SHOULD have made the offer...in which case One supposes it may actually have been mentioned....

at least one supposes that the school would have made mention of it......

but whatever

I RERALLY dont see these "male" students making such a gesture of deep respect to a western female do you??

would be interesting to have that thrown into the mix though

of course I realise that WHATEVER the events it will in YOUR view be entirely the fault of the school and so on for expecting them to have any sort of good manners or respect

Indeed I'm siurprised you arent calling for huge reparations to be paid to them for insulting them by expecting such civilised behaviour

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:48 pm

The only cert is in your head because of your prejudice.

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:52 pm

yeah yeah yeah....

you do realise that they are not even supposed to INITIATE conversation with us westerners (well actually any non Muslim)

let alone show ANY sign of respect...

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:52 pm

and thats not even an extremist POV...

by Victorismyhero Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:55 pm

anyways...enough arguing against LW appologistic cock and bull....I'm off to me pit......

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:57 pm

Yea, enough arguing about bigotted cock and bull Rolling Eyes

by Ben Reilly Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:40 am

Lord Foul wrote:yeah yeah yeah....

you do realise that they are not even supposed to INITIATE conversation with us westerners (well actually any non Muslim)

let alone show ANY sign of respect...

Are you kidding me, or has every Muslim I've ever met been apostate or lapsed? Around here they're quite friendly and talkative.

by Guest Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:38 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:yeah yeah yeah....

you do realise that they are not even supposed to INITIATE conversation with us westerners (well actually any non Muslim)

let alone show ANY sign of respect...

Are you kidding me, or has every Muslim I've ever met been apostate or lapsed? Around here they're quite friendly and talkative.

I seee as per usual we have had a long list of your excuses and inability to answer my points.
I mean have you though about any of this or are you going to continue to excuse bad beliefs from religions all the time if they are Islamic but happily condemn Christian, making your hypocrisy the worst?

And this is not just about gender … there are moments when even shaking the hand of someone of the same sex can pose a problem. For some traditional Shias any contact with any non-Muslims, male or female, makes the Muslim spiritually impure. After such contact a believer most go through ritual purification.

There are even some Sunni for whom all non-Muslims, regardless of gender, are impure. But Sunnis typically don’t require ritual purification after touching non-Muslims.

So its not only handshakes that is going to be an issue but then many sports as well, they will have to be excused from.
What about lifesaving treatment was well.
What if someone is choking?
I mean the Muslim stance here is if someone is drowning, well, they cannot touch them, so they would drown.
What about mouth to mouth with a heart attack?
Again many young Muslims get arrested for simply holding hands and this is all based around a belief on spiritually being unclean
Its not even in the Quran as well
Again if this was racism as the belief that stopped people hand shaking, you would have called for WW3.
Because its a religious and UnChristian belief, you bend over backwards to accommodate something that is going to be problematic in many areas.

When are people like you going to stop defending bad beliefs?

by nicko Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:52 am

I would shake hands with zack, if you paid me enough-------------or would I?

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:24 am

Does it matter why they won't shake hands? The issue is whether or not they would fit into Swiss society, and if they won't even shake hands with someone, the suggestion is that they would not. The Swiss have the right to turn down their citizenship on those grounds IMO.

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:35 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:And for the culturely ignorant idiots, there are many cultures that don't shake hands.

Bhuddists, for example.

Buddhists? I know some Buddhists, and I think they shake hands. I'll have to ask them if they find shaking hands "offensive".

by Victorismyhero Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:02 am

sassy wrote:Yea, enough arguing about bigotted cock and bull

yeah yeah yeah

see earlier int the thread where I wondered how long it would be before we saw the lefty last line of defence run out

"when you are beaten and all else fails , scream any one of "SIXHIRB", this way you will close down the conversation and can then claim "i won""

well it no longer works...your nonsense is irrelevent and risible....a worn out relic of an implement.

you drive away your best supporters into te arms of te right by just such appologistic clap trap as you spout in this instance

once again you are prepared to pander to the ill manners and disregard for our values, shown by these people
once again you run up the white flag, roll over and wiat for your belly to be rubbed.

It used to be that the left proudly flew a red flag....now that slinks, ashamed in the corner, all that it stood for having been surrendered and itself replaced by a white cross on a white background

Shameful

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:10 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

My opinion of someone who refused to shake hands with someone they were prejudiced against would be that they're a bigot. Are the Muslim boys prejudiced against their teacher? Or do they wish to follow the teachings of their religion?

So if you enter another culture, you should be forced to do things you don't want to do because "when in Rome"? Spoken like a true authoritarian control freak.

It's amazing how you suddenly think that following the teachings of religion is a good thing ...

by Victorismyhero Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:13 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:yeah yeah yeah....

you do realise that they are not even supposed to INITIATE conversation with us westerners (well actually any non Muslim)

let alone show ANY sign of respect...

Are you kidding me, or has every Muslim I've ever met been apostate or lapsed? Around here they're quite friendly and talkative.

"Ι. PROHIBITION OF INITIATING THE SAYING OF SALAAM TO NON-Muslims

A good number of Islamic scholars are of the view that it is prohibited to initiate the greeting of salaam to non-Muslims. They say salaam is meant to be exchanged among Muslims and that the verse of the Qur’an which spoke of greeting with salaam is referring to Muslim alone. This was the view of Ata’ bin Rabah They went further to say that salaam is to Muslims as shalom is to Jews. They backed their position with the Hadith reported by Abu Hurairah, where the messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said: “You must not initiate the (greetings of) salaam with Jews and Christians,”. They say, salaam is a greeting of honor and a non–Muslim (kafir) does not deserve to be honored. Ahmad Bin Hanbal commented on the above Hadith: “Going by this Hadith is better than any other contrary opinion”. Ibn Hajar is of similar opinion, while commenting on the above Hadith, he said: “The most credible of all these (views) is what is evident in the above Hadith, although it is specific to the People of the Book. Ibn Katheer also, while commenting on the verse on greeting (Qur’an 4:86) said: “But as to non-Muslim citizens (Alum Dimmit) one should not initiate to them the greetings of salaam” Abu Haneefah and Malik Bin Anas detested initiating salaam with non-Muslims.

Proponents of this opinion argue further that the salaam meant for greeting is among the peculiarities of this Ummah of Prophet Muhammad as reported by Anas bin Malik, who said that the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Indeed, Allah has given my Ummah three things that were not given to any other Ummah before me: saying salaam, and it is the greeting of the people of Jannah (Paradise)…”

Imam An-Nawawi reconciled between the ahadith that enjoyed greeting and those that prohibit initiating salaams to non Muslims as follows: “The ahadith that enjoined spreading the greetings of salaam is a generalization (A’am), from which the people of the book were excluded”

This group go further to assert that the salaam that Prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) said to his father in Qur’an 19:47 was a mere farewell and good will, and it was not meant as a greeting.

From among the contemporary scholars, Ibn Uthaimeen holds a similar opinion. He believed initiating greetings of any sort with non-Muslims is a sort of honor given to them which they don’t deserve. He categorically spelt out that it is prohibited (Haraam) to greet them with salaam. He further said: “Because it is a humiliation for a Muslim when he starts to honor a non-Muslim”. Shaykh Abdul-Azeez Bin Baaz while commenting on the Hadith earlier stated, said: “This indicates that we respond to them if they initiate it. It is initiating it that is prohibited” Scholars of the Shafii Madhhab uphold the prohibition of initiating salaam to a non-Muslim citizen. However, they permitted initiating with other local greetings only when the need arises, because it is an expression of love. They argued further that Allah the Most High has warned: “You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger,.. However, some of the Shafi’i Madhhab scholars consider it to be merely detestable (Makruh)."

FROM http://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/rules-of-greeting-non-Muslims-in-islam-saying-salaamreplying-salaam-bynurideen-lemu-an-nigeri/

there is a converse view also made on the site....

as per normal there are 2 or 3 different interpretations....
just so they can get away with justifying anything under any circumstance

but I guess ben you have more of those who follow the second interpretation and we have more of those who follow the first, abley aided and abetted by the loony left over here.....

by Victorismyhero Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:14 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

My opinion of someone who refused to shake hands with someone they were prejudiced against would be that they're a bigot. Are the Muslim boys prejudiced against their teacher? Or do they wish to follow the teachings of their religion?

So if you enter another culture, you should be forced to do things you don't want to do because "when in Rome"? Spoken like a true authoritarian control freak.

It's amazing how you suddenly think that following the teachings of religion is a good thing ...

the left are VERY flexible Ragga.......when it suits....

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:15 am

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's amazing how you suddenly think that following the teachings of religion is a good thing ...

the left are VERY flexible Ragga.......when it suits....

Isn't it rather the case that they think Muslims are a nice lefty "project"?

by Victorismyhero Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:22 am

I'm not sure that they actually "think" as such ragga.....

random neurons firing doesnt constitute "thought"...... Laughing

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:27 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
didge wrote:

Which clearly stems from a view to touch would be unclean does it not?

No, it clearly stems from a view that to touch would be sexual.

I don't see how that makes it any better really. Shaking hands is supposed to be a gender-neutral way of greeting someone or showing respect or whatever. Shaking hands or not might appear to be a trivial issue on the face of it, but it's the reasoning behind it which I find quite extremist. If a teenager thinks that shaking hands with a female teacher is a "sexual" thing, I would say that was quite extreme, and also a bit disturbing.

by Raggamuffin Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:31 am

Lord Foul wrote:I'm not sure that they actually "think" as such ragga.....

random neurons firing doesnt constitute "thought"......

OK, they have just "reacted". Laughing

Lefties do seem to gravitate towards the defence of Muslims whilst condemnation some other religious groups. I guess they think that Muslims are "downtrodden" and are therefore more worthy of their "empathy".

by Major Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:48 am

I do not encourage shaking hands or whaam whaam whaaming, nearly everyone I know does though.

by eddie Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:43 am

Stormee wrote:I do not encourage shaking hands or whaam whaam whaaming, nearly everyone I know does though.

You lost me after the words "shaking hands" tbh

by Victorismyhero Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:12 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:so in return...YOU think you should be able to wander the world doing only as YOU please....without regard to local custom and manners

spoken like a true left wing lout......

Yeah, I believe we should all be able to roam the world and live in peace. Tell me why we shouldn't.

moreover ben...we have a number of THAT sort over here.....we call em "pikeys"

they turn up, smash the locks of the gate into your property, park their caravans on your land, with no intenet of paying any sort of site fees....

the shit evertwhere (literally) and chuck rubbish (plastic bits of metal around,) light fires and contaminate the ground with fuel....

they churn it all up, and then when its ruined and you eventually get an order to get them off the land (which costs a fortune) them go and do it to somebody else...

this of course is the true mentality of the "i can wander anywhere, do what I like and demand to be left in peace" left wing type....

you SHOULD of course be able to go with a witness, give them 3 warnings then set light to their caravans or if you feel nice merely tow em out with a tractor, with no regard to the integrity of them.....

by Major Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:19 pm

eddie wrote:
Stormee wrote:I do not encourage shaking hands or whaam whaam whaaming, nearly everyone I know does though.

You lost me after the words "shaking hands" tbh

When meeting females you both go cheek to cheek, wham wham, gets on my breasts.

by Major Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:21 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
sassy wrote:Codswallop, why should anyone be forced to shake anyone else's hand if they don't want to. What next - you will kiss them or else!

erm lw histrionics???

since when has kissing been a recognised SOCIAL (I.E non intimate) greeting. Ok some parts of the world it is, but I dont think the swiss indulge or us for that matter.....

of course I COULD answer you in your own style,

refuse to shake hands??? ...what next , throwing gays off roofs????

by Tommy Monk Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:24 pm

We shouldn't have all these foreigners forced onto us in the first place... then there wouldn't be any problem...

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