4 out of 5 refugees not syrian????

sassy wrote:

Christie wrote:

Are they fuck illegal immigrants beforehand. Are you unable to read official documents?

Probably, and would refuse to read anything that says the opposite of what his unrelenting racism and inhumane attitude believes.

“owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country or return there because there is a fear of persecution...”


http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/edumat/studyguides/refugees.htm

Cuchulain wrote:The status of refugee is immediate on fleeing a nation as they are now nationless and homeless.
Key factors that make them refugees
Its bound in international law and those claiming otherwise clearly cannot understand international law
This is why I have relegated Tommy tot he insignificant section, he really is just very stupid


Have a good evening everyone

eddie wrote:I think if you have to apply to BE something, you can't be it, until youve been accepted.

Tommy is factually right actually. It is clear as day.

Dozens matter anyway; if someone is needy and fleeing from danger they are a refugee even if not until made one legally.

eddie wrote:I think if you have to apply to BE something, you can't be it, until youve been accepted.

Tommy is factually right actually. It is clear as day.

Dozens matter anyway; if someone is needy and fleeing from danger they are a refugee even if not until made one legally.

sassy wrote:

eddie wrote:I think if you have to apply to BE something, you can't be it, until youve been accepted.

Tommy is factually right actually. It is clear as day.

Dozens matter anyway; if someone is needy and fleeing from danger they are a refugee even if not until made one legally.

Tommy is completely and utterly WRONG.

If you flee for your life INTERNATIONAL LAW RECOGNISES YOU AS A REFUGEE, YOU THEN APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

eddie wrote:

sassy wrote:

Tommy is completely and utterly WRONG.

If you flee for your life INTERNATIONAL LAW RECOGNISES YOU AS A REFUGEE, YOU THEN APPLY FOR ASYLUM.

Yes I know....as a refugee!

Anyway it doesn't matter because a name is simply a name. It doesn't change the fact that people are fleeing and need help.

sassy wrote:Why are there so many ‘illegal’ asylum seekers?
Well, the thing is…

There’s no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker.


Eh?
It’s completely legal to claim asylum.
The UN drew up some international laws on this after the Second World War (1951). They’re in a big document called the Refugee Convention, which protects people fleeing persecution and trauma.

The European Union (EU) also follows some extra guidance that can relate to asylum, such as the Human Rights Act.

There’s a general principle in the EU about claiming asylum in the first safe country you reach – but this isn’t a hard-and-fast rule (nor a legal requirement), for various reasons.

http://blogs.redcross.org.uk/refugeesservices/2015/03/lets-lay-down-the-law-on-asylum-illegals/



TOMMY IS WRONG

victorismyhero wrote:

sassy wrote:Why are there so many ‘illegal’ asylum seekers?
Well, the thing is…

There’s no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker.


Eh?
It’s completely legal to claim asylum.
The UN drew up some international laws on this after the Second World War (1951). They’re in a big document called the Refugee Convention, which protects people fleeing persecution and trauma.

The European Union (EU) also follows some extra guidance that can relate to asylum, such as the Human Rights Act.

There’s a general principle in the EU about claiming asylum in the first safe country you reach – but this isn’t a hard-and-fast rule (nor a legal requirement), for various reasons.

http://blogs.redcross.org.uk/refugeesservices/2015/03/lets-lay-down-the-law-on-asylum-illegals/



TOMMY IS WRONG

yess...we know that...BUT in domestic law...untill the person actually CLAIMS asylum they could well be(and in most cases are) an illegal immigrant (except, as i say, if we "rescue them" in which case they are covered by international "refugee status")

eddie wrote:Look if I want to be a sausage I have to apply to be one, right?
Before I apply and get accepted and become a sausage,  I remain a non-sausage.

I am not a sausage.

Tommy Monk wrote:"...the staus of refugee is there to allow international law to rule over their treatment, rather than the possibly harsh domestic rules of a single nation.....

whew.......

thats my understanding of it...So tommy is "technically" both right AND wrong at the same time..."



Really... when we are only talking about countries that are all within the EU???


sorry Tommy as usual you are wrong again

refugee status is a UN international law

what I stated is is quite true and correct...and what I said about the reason for this law is also correct, the fact that it applied to ALL countries of course means that its requirements and practice are required of the EU countries as well....even though perhaps, we dont need it to....It is there to give a legal status to those who otherwise may have no staus in law as in displaced persons.....)


So your 'harsh domestic rule' caveat is simply bollocks as totally non applicable in this scenario...



So... that just leaves everything I've said as being 100% right!!!



And victor... tell your organ grinder that it was a good try...

victorismyhero wrote:in which case. logically there can be no such thing as an illegal immigrant can there????

regardless of how big and bold you print it, someone arriving surreptitiously by hiding on a plane will be immediately arrested as an illegal immigrant...since you CANT be an assylum seeker...untill you CLAIM assylum.

yes I KNOW that the intent is to claim assylum....and therfore the guy IS an assylum seeker...but untill he requests that status, in law he is an illegal immigrant....

(obviously there can be no such animal as an "illegal assylum seeker" since "assylum seeker" is a perfectly lawful status)

NOW do you see what I'm getting at

as for "refugee" I understand that that is in reality an international law status and has no counterpart in domestic law...without reference to the international law....(since assylum seeker stautus is greater and "better" than refugee status)

because the obligations in Law of a nation to an assylum seeker are greater than those to refugees....

and refugee status is only "temporary" whereas assulum seeker ..if assylum is granted, is permanent.

In other words Sassy it is to do with precedent...

assylum seeker has precedent over refugee in law and if accepted into a country as a "refugee" it has two possible outcomes.....you can be sent elsewhere (if elsewhere is available) OR you can ask for assylum there ....

consider two guys ...running from the same mess....one claims assylum,and gets it granted, the other remains refugee....Then the mess is sorted and it is deemed safe back where they came from....the refugee can then be immediately deported the assylum granted one cannot....

• All refugees must be granted identity papers and travel documents that allow them to travel outside the country
  
  
• Refugees must receive the same treatment as nationals of the receiving country with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • Free exercise of religion and religious education
    
  • Free access to the courts, including legal assistance
    
  • Access to elementary education
    
  • Access to public relief and assistance
    
  • Protection provided by social security
    
  • Protection of intellectual property, such as inventions and trade names
    
  • Protection of literary, artistic and scientific work
    
  • Equal treatment by taxing authorities
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the most favourable treatment provided to nationals of a foreign country with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to belong to trade unions
    
  • The right to belong to other non-political nonprofit organizations
    
  • The right to engage in wage-earning employment
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the most favourable treatment possible, which must be at least as favourable to that accorded aliens generally in the same circumstances, with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to own property
    
  • The right to practice a profession
    
  • The right to self-employment
    
  • Access to housing
    
  • Access to higher education
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the same treatment as that accorded to aliens generally with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to choose their place of residence
    
  • The right to move freely within the country
    
  •  Free exercise of religion and religious education
    
  • Free access to the courts, including legal assistance
    
  • Access to elementary education
    
  • Access to public relief and assistance
    
  • Protection provided by social security
    
  • Protection of intellectual property,
    such as inventions and trade names
    
  • Protection of literary, artistic and scientific work
    
  • Equal treatment by taxing authorities
    
  
  
  

Cuchulain wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:in which case. logically there can be no such thing as an illegal immigrant can there????

regardless of how big and bold you print it, someone arriving surreptitiously by hiding on a plane will be immediately arrested as an illegal immigrant...since you CANT be an assylum seeker...untill you CLAIM assylum.

yes I KNOW that the intent is to claim assylum....and therfore the guy IS an assylum seeker...but untill he requests that status, in law he is an illegal immigrant....

(obviously there can be no such animal as an "illegal assylum seeker" since "assylum seeker" is a perfectly lawful status)

NOW do you see what I'm getting at

as for "refugee" I understand that that is in reality an international law status and has no counterpart in domestic law...without reference to the international law....(since assylum seeker stautus is greater and "better" than refugee status)

because the obligations in Law of a nation to an assylum seeker are greater than those to refugees....

and refugee status is only "temporary" whereas assulum seeker ..if assylum is granted, is permanent.

In other words Sassy it is to do with precedent...

assylum seeker has precedent over refugee in law and if accepted into a country as a "refugee" it has two possible outcomes.....you can be sent elsewhere (if elsewhere is available) OR you can ask for assylum there ....

consider two guys ...running from the same mess....one claims assylum,and gets it granted, the other remains refugee....Then the mess is sorted and it is deemed safe back where they came from....the refugee can then be immediately deported the assylum granted one cannot....

Wrong
To claim he is an illegal immigrant until granted asylum, is casting guilt before being granted access or denied.

DOH!!!!  have you been drinking TOMMY water again didge

I thought you were brighter than that....

I SAID UNTIL HE CLAIMS ASSYLUM SEEKER STATUS....NOT untill granted assylum.....there is a rather large diifference in THAT

let me explain once again


a guy comes into the country hidden in a plane....

he walks down the concourse and is immediatley arrested by officials.....why???  because at that moment he is an illegal immigrant in law. He has entered the country illegaly
he is hauled off to the local nick ...and there he claims assylum (he may of course do THAT at the air port, but in practice its usually down the nick)

NOW things change....BECAUSE he has claimed assylum he is NO LONGER regarded in law as an illegal immigrant and becomes subject to the rights etc granted to assylum seekers...he cannot be charged with being an illegal immigrant and is subject only to such restrictions as allowable by law.


Where again our asylum process is far stricter than it should be making the process also subjective. So once they have claimed asylum, they are still refugees and asylum seekers, that is their status, as there has been no judgement. This you cannot make things up as you go along Victor and suddenly decide you think that makes them illegal. Well once a refugee applies for asylum, that makes them legally able to stay as a temporary citizens until processed. 

Also of which is telling and why Hungary will end up in hot water:


Article 31 of the 1951 Refugee Convention prohibits states from penalising a refugee for illegal entry when the purpose of their entry is to claim asylum

Just because the Uk is an unequal policy on the rights of refugees and asylum seekers, does not then make them illegal either, that is just silly, as illegal means ruled upon. Also a refugee can have better rights once they have become citizens. Where they are still defined as refugees from their home

but having become citizens of a host nation they are NO LONGER "refugees" as defined in law....the term refugee would have NO practical application as regards their staus....yes they may still be regarded as Refugees by some but thats merely semantics by that point....since the law of the nation they are in would no longer regard them as such , but rather as you said , citizens....I am not even sure the UN would recognise their continued status as refugees from that point.....

AND...once the problem in their home nation has been sorted and its safe for them to return (and that could well be interpreted as having a suitable infrastructure back up and running) a refugee, who has been kindly given shelter, but has not applied for "assylum or citizenship via other means CAN be sent back......(since the conditions under which someone is a refugee would, in that case no longer exist)

Refugees have the following rights:

Articles 12 - 30 of the Refugee Convention set out the rights which individuals are entitled to once they have been recognised as Convention refugees:


which is what I have been saying all along...to be a refugee requires UN recognition....
refugee staus is INTERNATIONAL LAW
assylum seeker is very much domestic law (since its interpertation and application can and does vary according to jurisdiction)

• All refugees must be granted identity papers and travel documents that allow them to travel outside the country
  
  
• Refugees must receive the same treatment as nationals of the receiving country with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • Free exercise of religion and religious education
    
  • Free access to the courts, including legal assistance
    
  • Access to elementary education
    
  • Access to public relief and assistance
    
  • Protection provided by social security
    
  • Protection of intellectual property, such as inventions and trade names
    
  • Protection of literary, artistic and scientific work
    
  • Equal treatment by taxing authorities
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the most favourable treatment provided to nationals of a foreign country with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to belong to trade unions
    
  • The right to belong to other non-political nonprofit organizations
    
  • The right to engage in wage-earning employment
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the most favourable treatment possible, which must be at least as favourable to that accorded aliens generally in the same circumstances, with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to own property
    
  • The right to practice a profession
    
  • The right to self-employment
    
  • Access to housing
    
  • Access to higher education
    
  
  
  
  
• Refugees must receive the same treatment as that accorded to aliens generally with regard to the following rights:
  
  
  
  • The right to choose their place of residence
    
  • The right to move freely within the country
    
  •  Free exercise of religion and religious education
    
  • Free access to the courts, including legal assistance
    
  • Access to elementary education
    
  • Access to public relief and assistance
    
  • Protection provided by social security
    
  • Protection of intellectual property,
    such as inventions and trade names
    
  • Protection of literary, artistic and scientific work
    
  • Equal treatment by taxing authorities
    
  
  
  

Cuchulain wrote:They still have rights as a refugee under international law Victor


BUT...if they had Refugee status....they wouldnt be entering a country hidden in an aircraft...would they? AND they would HAVE to be one of the persons agreed by the UN as being refugees....(which is the point of having the UN REFUGEE STATUS...SO THAT THERE IS NO WRIGGLE ROOM FOR LESS THAN COOPERATIVE COUNTRIES) when arrested they would have to be able to show that indeed they WERE refugees....then again of course it becomes a differnt matter....

what we have is two sets of laws, with similar but slighty different aims and interpretations, and with slightly different desired end results....its no wonder its a leagl mess......

Again you cannot arrest that person because if they are passing through a nation, as they have freedom of movement by international law. Illegal is somebody who would not even be able to pass through. Now if they had stayed for a length of time without applying then I would agree, as who defines the time frame when a person needs to submit their claim?

Its all very subjective based on a nations views more than actually applying the international law on asylum

http://www.ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/

victorismyhero wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:They still have rights as a refugee under international law Victor


BUT...if they had Refugee status....they wouldnt be entering a country hidden in an aircraft...would they? AND they would HAVE to be one of the persons agreed by the UN as being refugees....(which is the point of having the UN REFUGEE STATUS...SO THAT THERE IS NO WRIGGLE ROOM FOR LESS THAN COOPERATIVE COUNTRIES) when arrested they would have to be able to show that indeed they WERE refugees....then again of course it becomes a differnt matter....

what we have is two sets of laws, with similar but slighty different aims and interpretations, and with slightly different desired end results....its no wonder its a leagl mess......

Again you cannot arrest that person because if they are passing through a nation, as they have freedom of movement by international law. Illegal is somebody who would not even be able to pass through. Now if they had stayed for a length of time without applying then I would agree, as who defines the time frame when a person needs to submit their claim?

Its all very subjective based on a nations views more than actually applying the international law on asylum

http://www.ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/

anyhows..I'm off to bed...sleep well .....

Cuchulain wrote:They still have rights as a refugee under international law Victor

Again you cannot arrest that person because if they are passing through a nation, as they have freedom of movement by international law. Illegal is somebody who would not even be able to pass through. Now if they had stayed for a length of time without applying then I would agree, as who defines the time frame when a person needs to submit their claim?

Its all very subjective based on a nations views more than actually applying the international law on refudees

http://www.ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/


So I disagree that they are illegal, only certain conditions would make that refugee an illegal alien when in a nation. Like I say they have freedom of movement which cannot make them illegal. Only if they attempted to stay without applying for asylum, would they then render themselves illegal.
So I think you may have not thought this through as the illegal status could only be applied under certain conditions to a refugee

Also telling how they cannot be defined as illegal is because of:

Article 31 of the 1951 Refugee Convention prohibits states from penalising a refugee for illegal entry when the purpose of their entry is to claim asylum


which is what I am saying......

they would be ARRESTED as a suspected illegal...but then they can either clkaim assylum OR claim refugee status.....

but untill they do one or the other they can and will be held as illegals......(arrest is NOT considered in law a "penalty")

AT THE POINT they make their claim they will be immediately (or should be at least) de arrested and processed as appropriate.....


So if illegal entry does not define them as illegal, its only staying without permission that would make them illegal. Thus technically the refugee is not an illegal immigrant.
Sorry to burst your bubble Victor

Cuchulain wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:

anyhows..I'm off to bed...sleep well .....

No they have rights again under international law.
Again these rights allow for even illegal entry to a nation, so if that does not make them illegal in a nation and also they can travel through under freedom of movement, then the Police have no right to arrest them as they are not classified as illegal but refugee.

Ya gert dope, you are looking at it upside down

YES refugee status allows them entry.......BUT they are still required to show proof that they are infact refugees.....what form that proof is in is a matter for the UN....it is generally accepted that merely claiming to be is sufficient untill proved otherwise....BUT untill they say OI...i'm a refugee....they are in fact liable to arrest....Im mean they dont come bar coded or whatever..

In the case of the syrians...I suppose its quite easy...they will be comming from a given area and will have a consistant history to recount...however they will still have to "explain them selves to someone"


Freedom of movement, however, is also a key right for refugees within their host country. See, e.g., International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, arts. 12. Article 26 of the 1951 Convention provides that States shall afford refugees the right to choose their place of residence within the territory and to move freely within the State. Meanwhile, Article 28 obliges States Parties to issue refugees travel documents permitting them to travel outside the State “unless compelling reasons of national security or public order otherwise require.”


Only if a refugee stayed without applying for asylum would they then be deemed illegal. As seen law stipulates that they are given permits to travel through.
So its very much a case of refugees being legal and illegal dependent on certain conditions, as a clam to being a refugee still allows them rights.


Night mate

victorismyhero wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


No they have rights again under international law.
Again these rights allow for even illegal entry to a nation, so if that does not make them illegal in a nation and also they can travel through under freedom of movement, then the Police have no right to arrest them as they are not classified as illegal but refugee.

Ya gert dope, you are looking at it upside down

YES refugee status allows them entry.......BUT they are still required to show proof that they are infact refugees.....what form that proof is in is a matter for the UN....it is generally accepted that merely claiming to be is sufficient untill proved otherwise....BUT untill they say OI...i'm a refugee....they are in fact liable to arrest....Im mean they dont come bar coded or whatever..

In the case of the syrians...I suppose its quite easy...they will be comming from a given area and will have a consistant history to recount...however they will still have to "explain them selves to someone"


Freedom of movement, however, is also a key right for refugees within their host country. See, e.g., International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, arts. 12. Article 26 of the 1951 Convention provides that States shall afford refugees the right to choose their place of residence within the territory and to move freely within the State. Meanwhile, Article 28 obliges States Parties to issue refugees travel documents permitting them to travel outside the State “unless compelling reasons of national security or public order otherwise require.”


Only if a refugee stayed without applying for asylum would they then be deemed illegal. As seen law stipulates that they are given permits to travel through.
So its very much a case of refugees being legal and illegal dependent on certain conditions, as a clam to being a refugee still allows them rights.


Night mate

nicko wrote:I look at all these thousands and thousands of fit looking young men fighting to get into Europe and think,    Why don't you stay and fight for your country instead of running away?

Vicar Of Dibley wrote:

eddie wrote:Look if I want to be a sausage I have to apply to be one, right?
Before I apply and get accepted and become a sausage,  I remain a non-sausage.

I am not a sausage.

you little sausage