Immigration... numbers of foreign born reach record levels... are we full yet!?

Tommy Monk wrote:Fuck off!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:The govt were elected under a promise to bring immigration down to tens of thousands from hundreds of thousands...


We cannot control immigration while remaining in the EU!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:I see some idiot is completely out of touch with reality and the democratic will of the British people.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:I see some idiot is completely out of touch with reality and the democratic will of the British people.

I thin we should stop the rise of net immigration but using a FIFO-LILO system.

I'll pack the queen's bags, you call an Afghan taxi driver.

Cuchulain wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Fuck off!!!

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace,


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Vintage wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace,


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

You're a dreamer.

Nice sentiment but life doesn't work like that, maybe it will one day. There's space enough in the world for a reasonable population to have a good life, the problem is humans breed like viruses, we are crowding ourselves out of a decent life, here in Britain and elsewhere, humans are suffering other species are suffering and the planet as a whole is suffering. We are piling up problems for future generations. Some people won't be happy until we're shoulder to shoulder and like sheep behind a storm wall on a snowy night pushing and shoving to get into the centre while the ones on each end get shoved out into the night only to trot into the centre to try to push in again, only humans of course are more aggressive than sheep and they certainly won't just push and shove for the best position, as has been amply displayed in Greece and other European countries thes last few weeks.

eddie wrote:Pretty good post vintage.

I would like tighter measures without a doubt; there are simply was too many people on this tiny island and not enough of everything to go round.

Yes, we can blame the government for not building more houses etc - but if they do, just keep building to accommodate.....well Der! we will run out of land at some point.

Vintage wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Fuck off!!!

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace,


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

You're a dreamer.

Nice sentiment but life doesn't work like that, maybe it will one day. There's space enough in the world for a reasonable population to have a good life, the problem is humans breed like viruses, we are crowding ourselves out of a decent life, here in Britain and elsewhere, humans are suffering other species are suffering and the planet as a whole is suffering. We are piling up problems for future generations. Some people won't be happy until we're shoulder to shoulder and like sheep behind a storm wall on a snowy night pushing and shoving to get into the centre while the ones on each end get shoved out into the night only to trot into the centre to try to push in again, only humans of course are more aggressive than sheep and they certainly won't just push and shove for the best position, as has been amply displayed in Greece and other European countries thes last few weeks.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Pretty good post vintage.

I would like tighter measures without a doubt; there are simply was too many people on this tiny island and not enough of everything to go round.

Yes, we can blame the government for not building more houses etc - but if they do, just keep building to accommodate.....well Der! we will run out of land at some point.

not even close to very populated, 64th for population density

I believe the attitude expressed by eddie combined with historical injustice means that it is Morally acceptable to invade the UK to allow a better more reasonable people to live there.
Brits have become obsolete if they feel that way, evolution says it is time for them to be removed for a more socially advanced peoples.

this is what has happened to every other peoples that felt that way it is only fair.

eddie wrote:Pretty good post vintage.

I would like tighter measures without a doubt; there are simply was too many people on this tiny island and not enough of everything to go round.

Yes, we can blame the government for not building more houses etc - but if they do, just keep building to accommodate.....well Der! we will run out of land at some point.

Cuchulain wrote:

Vintage wrote:





You're a dreamer.

Nice sentiment but life doesn't work like that, maybe it will one day. There's space enough in the world for a reasonable population to have a good life, the problem is humans breed like viruses, we are crowding ourselves out of a decent life, here in Britain and elsewhere, humans are suffering other species are suffering and the planet as a whole is suffering. We are piling up problems for future generations. Some people won't be happy until we're shoulder to shoulder and like sheep behind a storm wall on a snowy night pushing and shoving to get into the centre while the ones on each end get shoved out into the night only to trot into the centre to try to push in again, only humans of course are more aggressive than sheep and they certainly won't just push and shove for the best position, as has been amply displayed in Greece and other European countries thes last few weeks.

Actually I am a realist and know more than anything that some humans are for selfish reasons stopping themselves being humane. We know the vast majority of humans are humane, but allow as here only to look out for some humans and not all. The world functions as basically one today, where each nations helps each other through exports and imports. Yes the world population is getting bigger and needs to be controlled on a global and scale and not view to think some land we are born to allows us to deny others the right and need to settle here. The moment you descend down the path of selfishly looking out for a set of humans with a limited geography area, you will eventually have society descend into anarchy. At present countless thousand are fleeing oppression, their needs are a priority and to deny them based off you needing and others space is centered on selfish reasoning. Now I know you are not generally a selfish person because you are there for family and those local, but that is where the looking to help others starts to wain for you and many others. So not having a go, this happens to many people, we allow fear to set in Where we tend to look after those closet to us the most Though to want to help, means wanting to help all, otherwise the concept of helping is meaningless as its based on selfish reasoning/ So the more around the world this view takes hold, where already  many nations need the resources of others, it will have come too late. Selfish nations will have withdrawn within themselves  not helping others. Thus when they will in the end need help., then other now selfish nations will ignore our plea. Society here would then descend into anarchy as it would in the majority of the world where they need the resources of others/ The path many now seek will only ends in misery and hardship for this country. It is the same for others. Only when  we throw away this selfish views as do others and the world works together, can then the population problem be tackled. We have the capability to take more people and need to anyone heavily so with the huge growing disparity of age groups. That by 2050 a quarter of the population will be the elderly. Who will because of people living longer will need far more young people to help cope with being able to look after the elderly. Who through no fault of their own, that being older makes a person more susceptible to illness and health, thus needed far more people to be employed to help medically and with assistance for them. Hence why immigration is vital and will be needed for years to come.

So I very much am a realist that can very much see the path people are wishing to chose will lead them to real disaster. Yes the world population needs to be tackled, closing up shop is not really the answer as seen. You have a great heart as you help many people, it just needs further extending out to others who need to come here and live. So I understand your views and not being horrible either, I just thinks people are  allowing negative emotions to cloud their reasoning here s that will only lead down a bad path until you reach a point of no return.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


Actually I am a realist and know more than anything that some humans are for selfish reasons stopping themselves being humane. We know the vast majority of humans are humane, but allow as here only to look out for some humans and not all. The world functions as basically one today, where each nations helps each other through exports and imports. Yes the world population is getting bigger and needs to be controlled on a global and scale and not view to think some land we are born to allows us to deny others the right and need to settle here. The moment you descend down the path of selfishly looking out for a set of humans with a limited geography area, you will eventually have society descend into anarchy. At present countless thousand are fleeing oppression, their needs are a priority and to deny them based off you needing and others space is centered on selfish reasoning. Now I know you are not generally a selfish person because you are there for family and those local, but that is where the looking to help others starts to wain for you and many others. So not having a go, this happens to many people, we allow fear to set in Where we tend to look after those closet to us the most Though to want to help, means wanting to help all, otherwise the concept of helping is meaningless as its based on selfish reasoning/ So the more around the world this view takes hold, where already  many nations need the resources of others, it will have come too late. Selfish nations will have withdrawn within themselves  not helping others. Thus when they will in the end need help., then other now selfish nations will ignore our plea. Society here would then descend into anarchy as it would in the majority of the world where they need the resources of others/ The path many now seek will only ends in misery and hardship for this country. It is the same for others. Only when  we throw away this selfish views as do others and the world works together, can then the population problem be tackled. We have the capability to take more people and need to anyone heavily so with the huge growing disparity of age groups. That by 2050 a quarter of the population will be the elderly. Who will because of people living longer will need far more young people to help cope with being able to look after the elderly. Who through no fault of their own, that being older makes a person more susceptible to illness and health, thus needed far more people to be employed to help medically and with assistance for them. Hence why immigration is vital and will be needed for years to come.

So I very much am a realist that can very much see the path people are wishing to chose will lead them to real disaster. Yes the world population needs to be tackled, closing up shop is not really the answer as seen. You have a great heart as you help many people, it just needs further extending out to others who need to come here and live. So I understand your views and not being horrible either, I just thinks people are  allowing negative emotions to cloud their reasoning here s that will only lead down a bad path until you reach a point of no return.

How do you propose to tackle world population then?

It's absurd to say that anyone should be able to go anywhere en masse. Would you approve of a load of people going to a country and chucking out all the people there on the grounds that those people have no right to that country?  

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

How do you propose to tackle world population then?

It's absurd to say that anyone should be able to go anywhere en masse. Would you approve of a load of people going to a country and chucking out all the people there on the grounds that those people have no right to that country?  

There are many ways to help tackle the problems.
Education for a start, where not all the world is literate. Mnay women in areas of low literacy do not in many cases realise they have rights. In many cases they may not even decide how many children they want as this is denied them the ability to decide for themselves.
Religious beliefs is also ensuring that populations spiral out of control because of belief systems that have no evidence.
For example the view to not have forms of birth control. The heads of religions that export these views around the world clearly are having to much influence over peoples lives as they in places like Africa have a percentage of people who cannot even read. They take a subjective view formed on denying birth control and make it a sin to use birth control. Religion is a major problem here. through beliefs on brith control. People need to be responsible themselves when planning families, where when planning a family they must also think of what they are going to leave t heir children behind to deal with. Plenty of things we can do

How is it absurd. The belief around ownership of lands is based around invented boundaries. Now we know animals leave their scent to claim a territory is theirs, but they never own it and many species share this lands.  Yet humans think they can decide who can and who cannot migrate. Think about what you are saying. Humans born with privalidge, because they never created the infrustructure we have. Due to selfish reasons as stated wish to deny helping people. You are just one of over 60 million people on these lands, where you are only born to these lands because your ancestors migrated here. Wanting to deny people a chance just like you were given by being born here. Its absurd. Yes contols are needed and so does the influx, but we will need immigration for a years to come to balance the age gap. AThe majority of countries need to play their part in taking in those fleeing from violence also.

Your reasoning as i explained in my previous post is "I am alright jack" but stuff the rest of the world. When people take this poor reasoning it is a slippery slope, where many of us are realiant on others in many aspects of our lives. From being born we need to be looked after and raised, to food being cultivated so there is enough food for you to buy to eat To many other problems and then later in life when we are elderly. Doctors spend years of study so they are able to help you when  you are ill. Some people run the sewage systems, I could go on the list is endless but this country cannot sustain itself off its own resources.

You fail to grap the world only functions by the ability of people world over.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

There are many ways to help tackle the problems.
Education for a start, where not all the world is literate. Mnay women in areas of low literacy do not in many cases realise they have rights. In many cases they may not even decide how many children they want as this is denied them the ability to decide for themselves.
Religious beliefs is also ensuring that populations spiral out of control because of belief systems that have no evidence.
For example the view to not have forms of birth control. The heads of religions that export these views around the world clearly are having to much influence over peoples lives as they in places like Africa have a percentage of people who cannot even read. They take a subjective view formed on denying birth control and make it a sin to use birth control. Religion is a major problem here. through beliefs on brith control. People need to be responsible themselves when planning families, where when planning a family they must also think of what they are going to leave t heir children behind to deal with. Plenty of things we can do

How is it absurd. The belief around ownership of lands is based around invented boundaries. Now we know animals leave their scent to claim a territory is theirs, but they never own it and many species share this lands.  Yet humans think they can decide who can and who cannot migrate. Think about what you are saying. Humans born with privalidge, because they never created the infrustructure we have. Due to selfish reasons as stated wish to deny helping people. You are just one of over 60 million people on these lands, where you are only born to these lands because your ancestors migrated here. Wanting to deny people a chance just like you were given by being born here. Its absurd. Yes contols are needed and so does the influx, but we will need immigration for a years to come to balance the age gap. AThe majority of countries need to play their part in taking in those fleeing from violence also.

Your reasoning as i explained in my previous post is "I am alright jack" but stuff the rest of the world. When people take this poor reasoning it is a slippery slope, where many of us are realiant on others in many aspects of our lives. From being born we need to be looked after and raised, to food being cultivated so there is enough food for you to buy to eat To many other problems and then later in life when we are elderly. Doctors spend years of study so they are able to help you when  you are ill. Some people run the sewage systems, I could go on the list is endless but this country cannot sustain itself off its own resources.

You fail to grap the world only functions by the ability of people world over.

When my ancestors migrated here, there was a lot more room and no benefit system.

Do you approve of Hitler's expansionist policies then? After all, the people in the neighbouring countries didn't own them according to you.

If this goes on, a lot of countries will be empty apart from the warring parties because all the others will have left, and other countries will collapse under the weight of huge populations.

Raggamuffin wrote:I actually don't think you believe your own view Didge. This "free for all" policy you have doesn't really ring true.

victorismyhero wrote:Didge...ALL laws are "made up"

IF as you claim the laws relating to land ownership are invalid as a result of this then you are firstly legitimising ANY "land grab by any "power" (including isis), since if "no one2 owns a praticulat piece of land ...who is to say who can have "occupancy" of it?

if everyone in the worls suddenly decided that ireland was the most desirable place to be and tried to "live" there dont you rather think that would cause contention, not to mention that nobody would be able to do anything?

and secondly if the laws of land ownership are "artificial" and invalid for that reason, so are ALL other laws, including those which give you any sort of right to anything.

this is true simply because there is NO SUCH THING as a RIGHT, outside of the sphere of law...

take the most fundamental...the right to life....

who says???

mmmmmmm????

without law you DONT have the right to life, except by what YOU by main strength and cunning can enforce.

back to the jungle......

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I actually don't think you believe your own view Didge. This "free for all" policy you have doesn't really ring true.

Which you have every right to believe Rags
Never even claimed we should have a free for all. My view is in an ideal world there would be no need or even be a need or borders. We humans are takers, where we take everything for granted we can take what we want without the conseqiuences. My view was to show that such poor negative views, as many of them most certainly are lack validity to argue against immigrants. That is back up by 4 people calling to stop immigration  altogether on the vote and even worse remove people.
My point which you so poorly missed again, is that you and others base selfish reasoning to deny immigration based off the view of" looking out for your own.". Whether that be yourself, your family of those in this country. We have to have border controls because that is how the world works with migration. It does not mean I appprove how the world is operating does it Rags.
Mt main issue here is based on those with negative reasoning which countless points in history shows that when a majority of people go down that road, it spells many problems as I have pointed out already. Again the world functions together and thus to argue to seeking to look out for your own based on infrustructure is flawed. When we can certainly build more as we have done over the years and where again we are going to need even more people which migrants generally are to help with the increased need of people to help by 2050 a quarter of people who will be elderly. Again I have been over all of this, and now am having to waste time repeating myself.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Which you have every right to believe Rags
Never even claimed we should have a free for all. My view is in an ideal world there would be no need or even be a need or borders. We humans are takers, where we take everything for granted we can take what we want without the conseqiuences. My view was to show that such poor negative views, as many of them most certainly are lack validity to argue against immigrants. That is back up by 4 people calling to stop immigration  altogether on the vote and even worse remove people.
My point which you so poorly missed again, is that you and others base selfish reasoning to deny immigration based off the view of" looking out for your own.". Whether that be yourself, your family of those in this country. We have to have border controls because that is how the world works with migration. It does not mean I appprove how the world is operating does it Rags.
Mt main issue here is based on those with negative reasoning which countless points in history shows that when a majority of people go down that road, it spells many problems as I have pointed out already. Again the world functions together and thus to argue to seeking to look out for your own based on infrustructure is flawed. When we can certainly build more as we have done over the years and where again we are going to need even more people which migrants generally are to help with the increased need of people to help by 2050 a quarter of people who will be elderly. Again I have been over all of this, and now am having to waste time repeating myself.

So you think that humans are takers. Why then do you think that it's OK for them to be takers, and that Brits should be givers - ie, give anyone who comes here what they want?

Tribal people look out for themselves, and for their own people - do you consider them selfish?

Do you think that the people in countries Hitler wanted were being selfish because they didn't want the Germans to take over? Do you think that native Americans who didn't want to give up their land were selfish? Do you even think they had a right to that land? Do you think that Zionism is wrong? After all, that relies on the idea of a homeland for Jews.

veya_victaous wrote:

eddie wrote:Pretty good post vintage.

I would like tighter measures without a doubt; there are simply was too many people on this tiny island and not enough of everything to go round.

Yes, we can blame the government for not building more houses etc - but if they do, just keep building to accommodate.....well Der! we will run out of land at some point.

not even close to very populated, 64th for population density

I believe the attitude expressed by eddie combined with historical injustice means that it is Morally acceptable to invade the UK to allow a better more reasonable people to live there.
Brits have become obsolete if they feel that way, evolution says it is time for them to be removed for a more socially advanced peoples.

this is what has happened to every other peoples that felt that way it is only fair.

Raggamuffin wrote:Well Didge, you either think that land is up for grabs or you think it's not. If nobody owns it, nobody can steal it - they can just march in and take it if they want to, according to your logic. Are you in favour of Empire building?

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Well Didge, you either think that land is up for grabs or you think it's not. If nobody owns it, nobody can steal it - they can just march in and take it if they want to, according to your logic. Are you in favour of Empire building?

How is the land up for grabs when they are coming her to be part of that nation?
This is why its pointless continuing here as you have failed to see the context of my points.
We already have laws on  countries and boundaries, of which as stated I have expressed my views on.
Seriously, adrress my points Rags, because all you are doing is stalling anb deflectin .

If you fail to again, then I know not to further waste my time here.

Cuchulain wrote:You had your chance, I continue to answer all points and questions you pose and you have avoided the majority of mine, You may think you can dictate debates, but sadly you cannot.
I suggest you read again through my points.
All the best

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:You had your chance, I continue to answer all points and questions you pose and you have avoided the majority of mine, You may think you can dictate debates, but sadly you cannot.
I suggest you read again through my points.
All the best

So you want to dictate the debate yourself, but you don't like anyone else raising their own points.

I always thought you were a bit of a dictator.

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So you want to dictate the debate yourself, but you don't like anyone else raising their own points.

I always thought you were a bit of a dictator.

I think you just described yourself because you were avoiding many points and kept repsonding back with poor questions. Failing to still answer mine. I showed respect by answering yours, you though attempted poorly to deflect and duck out of.
Hence there was little point continuing when you were trying to dictate the debate.

Anyway, I have no need to say anything further on here to you Rags, unless you decide to actually answer my points.
Will be back later when I hope Vintage of Victor add to a very interesting discussion.

Bye

Cuchulain wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Well Didge, you either think that land is up for grabs or you think it's not. If nobody owns it, nobody can steal it - they can just march in and take it if they want to, according to your logic. Are you in favour of Empire building?

How is the land up for grabs when they are coming her to be part of that nation?

are they though? or are they just going to set up a "nation within a nation" i.e exactly what I was saying in thwe other post about multiculturalism, go look at "Muslim birmingham"
within it is to be found little trace of "britain"

This is why its pointless continuing here as you have failed to see the context of my points.
We already have laws on  countries and boundaries, of which as stated I have expressed my views on.
Seriously, adrress my points Rags, because all you are doing is stalling and deflecting .

If you fail to again, then I know not to further waste my time here.

victorismyhero wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

How is the land up for grabs when they are coming her to be part of that nation?

are they though? or are they just going to set up a "nation within a nation" i.e exactly what I was saying in thwe other post about multiculturalism, go look at "Muslim birmingham"
within it is to be found little trace of "britain"

This is why its pointless continuing here as you have failed to see the context of my points.
We already have laws on  countries and boundaries, of which as stated I have expressed my views on.
Seriously, adrress my points Rags, because all you are doing is stalling and deflecting .

If you fail to again, then I know not to further waste my time here.