Israel and Apartheid

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Mira Bar Hillel

Friday 13 December 2013


The lame excuses made up by Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to go to Nelson Mandela’s memorial on Tuesday have raised eyebrows and wry smiles all over the world. Having insisted on a £150,000 refit of the plane he and his wife took for the five-hour flight to Lady Thatcher’s funeral in London earlier this year, the trip to Johannesburg would, he claimed, be “too costly”. This from a man who spends thousands a year – from the public purse - on pistachio ice-cream and scented candles.

However, it is quite possible that Mr Netanyahu may have been less than ecstatically welcomed in the new South Africa anyway, following revelations that the country’s apartheid regime was the Israeli defense industry’s biggest customer and sponsor.

For many years it was virtually a capital offence to use the word “apartheid” as an analogy to policies of the Israeli government in the Occupied Territories. In 2007 my friend Danny Rubenstein, the venerated Arab Affairs analyst of Haaretz newspaper, was invited by the Zionist Federation of Great Britain to address an event. On his way he stopped to address a UN committee in Brussels, and used the word “apartheid” to describe Israel’s attitude towards the Palestinians.

In response, he was unceremoniously dumped by the ZFGB and left high and dry in a B&B in Golders Green on a Friday night. He was eventually rescued by the New Fund for Israel and invited to a crowded gathering in a North London Reform synagogue.

But while Rubenstein was mainly concerned to warn the audience of the dangers of Israel following in the footsteps of the Afrikaaners, his interviewer – and most of the questioners - kept harping on what was constantly, if coyly, referred to as “the A-word”.

Yet it now emerges that for decades Israel supported the “A-word” regime and its military with advanced weapon systems at a time when Western sanctions meant no one else would. According to Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, the cooperation reached its peak in the late 1980s, the twilight of the apartheid regime.

In the summer of 1988, Benn says, Israel reportedly sold South Africa 60 Kfir combat planes in a hushed-up deal worth $1.7 billion. The planes were upgraded and renamed Atlas Cheetah and Israel’s involvement was played down because the US was party to the sanctions regime, according to Haaretz.

Israel joined the international sanctions in 1987 but said it would honour existing contracts so the deal went ahead anyway. A few weeks later, the Israelis launched the first Ofek reconnaissance satellite which Benn claims could only have been developed with South African funding. And only in 1991 was the US able to force the Israeli government to stop selling SA short and midrange missiles.

Maps which were only revealed in the past few days show how the Israelis plan to create bantustans for the Nomadic Bedouin in its southern Negev region. Tens of thousands of them would be forced into ghettoes to make way for new Jewish towns and military zones. A-word, anyone?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-and-apartheid-confused-you-will-be-9001321.html

The Israeli Government has got away with too much for too long. I got a communication from some Israeli peace protesters I am in touch with about Netanyahu's excuse for not going to Nelson Mandela's memorial. They had just heard about all this.

and continuing with the same tactic. Like swimming in goo, pointless.

Sassy wrote:and continuing with the same tactic.   Like swimming in goo, pointless.

Well being as Ben is a lefty he is going to side with the lefties, which means nothing to me, I like his wit, but as seen I showed that there was no apartheid what so ever, even Gelico said so, but you still believe something which is miles apart from apartheid is apartheid, that shows stupidity at its best really!

PhilDidge wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Typical right-wing debate tactic -- tie everybody up with checking the most miniscule, inconsequential, unimportant parts of the debate when you're trying to defend an undefendable position. It's like resorting to mocking poor grammar -- you have no real retort, so you have to district people into arguing about something else.

Then, when everybody's sick of your bullshit, declare yourself the winner :D

lol I went back to the debate until Irn jumped in crying and as seen I debated the points showing the claim of apartheid was nonsense, I only say the winner as I know it winds them up dear Ben!

So maybe you can show my posts where I am wrong am happy to debate them to show otherwise

So now it's all my fault and in the same post he admits to being a wind up merchant.

Priceless lol

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


lol I went back to the debate until Irn jumped in crying and as seen I debated the points showing the claim of apartheid was nonsense, I only say the winner as I know it winds them up dear Ben!

So maybe you can show my posts where I am wrong am happy to debate them to show otherwise

So now it's all my fault and in the same post he admits to being a wind up merchant.

Priceless lol

Never denied it just like sassy did not either, just showing how all do to Ben.

My point is there was no apartheid, Obama himself missed Thatcher's funeral and the Bedouin are being very naive here, all views which have yet to be shown to be wrong dear Irn!

 :D 

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

So now it's all my fault and in the same post he admits to being a wind up merchant.

Priceless lol

Never denied it just like sassy did not either, just showing how all do to Ben.

My point is there was no apartheid, Obama himself missed Thatcher's funeral and the Bedouin are being very naive here, all views which have yet to be shown to be wrong dear Irn!

 :D 

No point debating that with you as everyone who disagrees with you are just liars

That's it.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Never denied it just like sassy did not either, just showing how all do to Ben.

My point is there was no apartheid, Obama himself missed Thatcher's funeral and the Bedouin are being very naive here, all views which have yet to be shown to be wrong dear Irn!

 :D 

No point debating that with you as everyone who disagrees with you are just liars

That's it.

Well as seen sassy and Joy made poor claims to things I did not say like wanting people to starve, that is lying but I accept your copout excuse for bailing out of the debate Irn, when there was no apartheid here, Obama himself missed Thatcher's funeral and the Bedouin are being very naive here, all views which have yet to be shown to be wrong

Didge do you think you know more about Apartheid and WHAT it really means than Mandela?

Mandela's message of solidarity from a 1997 speech in which he said "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians",

Please read this Didge.


Palestinians draw parallels with Mandela's anti-apartheid struggle
Mahmoud Abbas says Mandela was 'symbol of liberation from colonialism and occupation for all peoples'
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Harriet Sherwood in Ramallah
theguardian.com, Thursday 12 December 2013 10.28 GMT

A Palestinian youth climbs a barbed wire barrier with a picture of the late South African leader in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh. Photograph: Nasser Nasser/AP
The death of Nelson Mandela has given fresh impetus to Palestinian efforts to portray the Israeli occupation as a form of apartheid that should be confronted with a similar international campaign that took on South Africa's white regime.

Mandela's message of solidarity from a 1997 speech in which he said "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians", has been repeatedly invoked across Palestine in the past week.

Demonstrators carried posters of Mandela who also strongly criticised Israel's close ties to the apartheid government, at regular weekly protests against Jewish settlements and the vast concrete and steel separation barrier in the West Bank on Friday. Israeli troops fired teargas, rubber-coated bullets and water cannon to disperse protesters, injuring dozens.

Congregations lit candles to honour Mandela's life at packed services and masses at churches across the West Bank on Sunday. At the Holy Family Church in Ramallah, Father Raed Abusahlia's sermon included many references to biblical figures, with unmistakeable parallels to the man who led the struggle for justice in South Africa.

The Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas said Mandela's death was "a great loss to Palestine". He was, he added, "a symbol of liberation from colonialism and occupation for all peoples".

Ben_Reilly wrote:Typical right-wing debate tactic -- tie everybody up with checking the most miniscule, inconsequential, unimportant parts of the debate when you're trying to defend an undefendable position. It's like resorting to mocking poor grammar -- you have no real retort, so you have to district people into arguing about something else.

Then, when everybody's sick of your bullshit, declare yourself the winner :D

er, not so, Mr Reilly, if you don't mind.

I'm right wing,,,,very right wing,,,,,in fact some of your posters on here might even call me far right wing, but I do not use such tactics. The behaviour which you describe above is definitely typical of certain posters but it is not a right wing thing, i assure you. Sassy, how very dare you agree with him?? piss off woman!!!

Ok, you are the exception that proves the rule lol

Didge however is the rule to judge the exception by.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge do you think you know more about Apartheid and WHAT it really means than Mandela?

Mandela's message of solidarity from a 1997 speech in which he said "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians",

Hi Sexy

In Israel all citizens have he same rights, Palestine is a different kettle of fish all together with obtaining its right to be recognized of which I support that it should, nut not whilst hamas is in control, as they are nothing more than terrorists and Islamists

SEXY MAMA wrote:Please read this Didge.


Palestinians draw parallels with Mandela's anti-apartheid struggle
Mahmoud Abbas says Mandela was 'symbol of liberation from colonialism and occupation for all peoples'
Share


1
inShare
6
Email
Harriet Sherwood in Ramallah
theguardian.com, Thursday 12 December 2013 10.28 GMT

A Palestinian youth climbs a barbed wire barrier with a picture of the late South African leader in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh. Photograph: Nasser Nasser/AP
The death of Nelson Mandela has given fresh impetus to Palestinian efforts to portray the Israeli occupation as a form of apartheid that should be confronted with a similar international campaign that took on South Africa's white regime.

Mandela's message of solidarity from a 1997 speech in which he said "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians", has been repeatedly invoked across Palestine in the past week.

Demonstrators carried posters of Mandela who also strongly criticised Israel's close ties to the apartheid government, at regular weekly protests against Jewish settlements and the vast concrete and steel separation barrier in the West Bank on Friday. Israeli troops fired teargas, rubber-coated bullets and water cannon to disperse protesters, injuring dozens.

Congregations lit candles to honour Mandela's life at packed services and masses at churches across the West Bank on Sunday. At the Holy Family Church in Ramallah, Father Raed Abusahlia's sermon included many references to biblical figures, with unmistakeable parallels to the man who led the struggle for justice in South Africa.

The Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas said Mandela's death was "a great loss to Palestine". He was, he added, "a symbol of liberation from colonialism and occupation for all peoples".

Hi SM,

Exactly, which was why the Israeli PM didn't dare go to Mandela's funeral.

I don't think he went due to supplying arms before under previous Israeli governments, that would be embarrassing for him, which is no doubt the reason. Now many Governments did business with the apartheid regime, that though is over looked it seems, when all doing so were wrong!

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge do you think you know more about Apartheid and WHAT it really means than Mandela?

Mandela's message of solidarity from a 1997 speech in which he said "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians",

Hi Sexy

In Israel all citizens have he same rights, Palestine is a different kettle of fish all together with obtaining its right to be recognized of which I support that it should, nut not whilst hamas is in control, as they are nothing more than terrorists and Islamists  

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist as they say Didge.

PLUS what Mandela said about Palestine Didge, don't overlook that now will you, I know you want to, but SM has shown you what Mandela said about Palestine hasn't she.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Hi Sexy

In Israel all citizens have he same rights, Palestine is a different kettle of fish all together with obtaining its right to be recognized of which I support that it should, nut not whilst hamas is in control, as they are nothing more than terrorists and Islamists  

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist as they say Didge.

Hamas are terrorists and follow Islamism sexy, who have committed torture, persecution and terrorism itself

Sassy wrote:PLUS what Mandela said about Palestine Didge, don't overlook that now will you, I know you want to, but SM has shown you what Mandela said about Palestine hasn't she.

I don;t overlook it sassy, though you overlook how he did things himself, like with something called reconciliation, which is what is needed as I keep telling you is the only way forward!

Now, now Didge, remember what Mandela said about Palestine, and he was called a terrorist wasn't he.

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:PLUS what Mandela said about Palestine Didge, don't overlook that now will you, I know you want to, but SM has shown you what Mandela said about Palestine hasn't she.

I don;t overlook it sassy, though you overlook how he did things himself, like with something called reconciliation, which is what is needed as I keep telling you is the only way forward!

But he was saying it recently, long after the reconciliation speech.

Didge its up to you to believe it or not.

But a man who suffered and knows more than anyone on here what Apartheid really means was Mandela and if he said that Palestinians are suffering too then surely this must mean something dont you think?

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:PLUS what Mandela said about Palestine Didge, don't overlook that now will you, I know you want to, but SM has shown you what Mandela said about Palestine hasn't she.

I don;t overlook it sassy, though you overlook how he did things himself, like with something called reconciliation, which is what is needed as I keep telling you is the only way forward!

It does Didge IF Israel wanted a reconciliation but they dont.

They want to wipe the Palestinians off.

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist as they say Didge.

Hamas are terrorists and follow Islamism sexy, who have committed torture, persecution and terrorism itself

Dont posters like Smelly say the same thing about Mandela?

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge its up to you to believe it or not.

But a man who suffered and knows more than anyone on here what Apartheid really means was Mandela and if he said that Palestinians are suffering too then surely this must mean something dont you think?

I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Hamas are terrorists and follow Islamism sexy, who have committed torture, persecution and terrorism itself

Dont posters like Smelly say the same thing about Mandela?

Okay sexy, do Hamas recognise Israel no?

Do they seek venegence?

Yes

Now did Mandela seek vengeance on those from Apartheid?

No

Did he seek reconciliation?

Yes

That is something lost on smelly the later

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge its up to you to believe it or not.

But a man who suffered and knows more than anyone on here what Apartheid really means was Mandela and if he said that Palestinians are suffering too then surely this must mean something dont you think?

I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

Yea, that was why they killed the Hamas leader with a drone who was carrying the treaty that might have led to some sort of peace, and then proceeding to kill and maim thousands of men, women and children in Gaza last year.

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge its up to you to believe it or not.

But a man who suffered and knows more than anyone on here what Apartheid really means was Mandela and if he said that Palestinians are suffering too then surely this must mean something dont you think?

I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

But Didge Israelis themselves dont want a reconciliation. You cant find peace when the enemy is not willing to listen.

Sassy wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

Yea, that was why they killed the Hamas leader with a drone who was carrying the treaty that might have led to some sort of peace, and then proceeding to kill and maim thousands of men, women and children in Gaza last year.

One less dead terrorist, smart tactical move by Israel if you ask me as there is no way that hamas recognise Israel, to think that is daft!!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

But Didge Israelis themselves dont want a reconciliation. You cant find peace when the enemy is not willing to listen.

Some of them do, just as some Palestinians do and the key is too reconciliation, because that is what worked for Mandela, all else here has failed

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Dont posters like Smelly say the same thing about Mandela?

Okay sexy, do Hamas recognise Israel no?

Do they seek venegence?

Yes

Now did Mandela seek vengeance on those from Apartheid?

No

Did he seek reconciliation?

Yes

That is something lost on smelly the later

Didge Hamas did want peace though. They were willing to meet half way.

As i keep saying Israelies dont want palestinians in Palestine they believe its their land.

Sassy wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am not denying that Palestinians are suffering at times, never even denied this, but what did I say, I said that those within Gaza are under Hamas, who wish to wipe out Israel and that treat people poorly in Gaza itself, now two wrongs do not make a right and hence why I have argued from the start that reconciliation is needed with those ruling in the west back and if Hamas wants to recognise Israel then that will go a long way to, for reconciliation and that is the message many have not learnt from Mandela

Yea, that was why they killed the Hamas leader with a drone who was carrying the treaty that might have led to some sort of peace, and then proceeding to kill and maim thousands of men, women and children in Gaza last year.

Its evident what Israel is doing.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Okay sexy, do Hamas recognise Israel no?

Do they seek venegence?

Yes

Now did Mandela seek vengeance on those from Apartheid?

No

Did he seek reconciliation?

Yes

That is something lost on smelly the later

Didge Hamas did want peace though. They were willing to meet half way.

As i keep saying Israelies dont want palestinians in Palestine they believe its their land.

I believe many Palestinians want peace and Hamas are islamists, I would not wish that on anyone and they do not want peace, for peace to happen the Palestinians need to be shot of Hamas and the same goes for Zionists, they are as bad and need to be brought down by the people of Israel.
Thus both Hamas and Zionists are the problem!

Goodnight Everyone.

I only came on for a little while xxxx

  

SEXY MAMA wrote:Goodnight Everyone.

I only came on for a little while xxxx

  

Night sexy

x

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Goodnight Everyone.

I only came on for a little while xxxx

  

Night sexy

x

Sweet Dreams Didge xx

You too sexy. best wishes to your family.

x

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Didge Hamas did want peace though. They were willing to meet half way.

As i keep saying Israelies dont want palestinians in Palestine they believe its their land.

I believe many Palestinians want peace and Hamas are islamists, I would not wish that on anyone and they do not want peace, for peace to happen the Palestinians need to be shot of Hamas and the same goes for Zionists, they are as bad and need to be brought down by the people of Israel.
Thus both Hamas and Zionists are the problem!

Yep, that would be why the Hamas leader was carrying a brokered peace agreement and why the Israeli's killed him while he was carrying it. They didn't want peace, they wanted Palestine.

Sassy wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I believe many Palestinians want peace and Hamas are islamists, I would not wish that on anyone and they do not want peace, for peace to happen the Palestinians need to be shot of Hamas and the same goes for Zionists, they are as bad and need to be brought down by the people of Israel.
Thus both Hamas and Zionists are the problem!

Yep, that would be why the Hamas leader was carrying a brokered peace agreement and why the Israeli's killed him while he was carrying it.   They didn't want peace, they wanted Palestine.

As I said one less terrorist and Hamas do not want peace, I suppose you missed the comments the other day in regard to the bomb on the buss, yes that is wanting peace by wishing civilians dead, again you show how gullible you are, Hamas does not want peace, it wants to wipe Israel off the map, the only way forward as stated is for both peoples to stand opposed to Zionists and Hamas and then they will be able to reconcile and have peace

Laters

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Yep, that would be why the Hamas leader was carrying a brokered peace agreement and why the Israeli's killed him while he was carrying it.   They didn't want peace, they wanted Palestine.

As I said one less terrorist and Hamas do not want peace, I suppose you missed the comments the other day in regard to the bomb on the buss, yes that is wanting peace by wishing civilians dead, again you show how gullible you are, Hamas does not want peace, it wants to wipe Israel off the map, the only way forward as stated is for both peoples to stand opposed to Zionists and Hamas and then they will be able to reconcile and have peace

Laters

You fucking idiot, thousands of people where killed and maimed because the Israeli's did that, there was a chance of peace and they deliberately scuppered it.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085


Israeli peace activist: Hamas leader Jabari killed amid talks on long-term truce
Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit, says Israel made a mistake that will cost the lives of 'innocent people on both sides.'
By Nir Hasson | Nov. 15, 2012 | 1:55 PM | 44

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.

Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.

“I think that they have made a strategic mistake," Baskin said, an error "which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides."

"This blood could have been spared. Those who made the decision must be judged by the voters, but to my regret they will get more votes because of this,” he added.

Baskin made Jabari’s acquaintance when he served as a mediator between David Meidin, Israel’s representative to the Shalit negotiations, and Jabari. “Jabari was the all-powerful man in charge. He always received the messages via a third party, Razi Hamad of Hamas, who called him Mister J.”

For months, Baskin sent daily messages in advance of the formulation of the deal. He kept the channel of communication with Gaza open even after the Shalit deal was completed.

According to Baskin, during the past two years Jabari internalized the realization that the rounds of hostilities with Israel were beneficial neither to Hamas nor to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and only caused suffering, and several times he acted to prevent firing by Hamas into Israel.

He said that even when Hamas was pulled into participating in the launching of rockets, its rockets would always land in open spaces. “And that was intentional,” clarified Baskin.

In recent months Baskin was continuously in touch with Hamas officials and with Egyptian intelligence as well as with officials in Israel, whose names he refused to divulge. A few months ago Baskin showed Defense Minister Ehud Barak a draft of the agreement and on the basis of that draft an inter-ministry committee on the issue was established. The agreement was to have constituted a basis for a permanent truce between Israel and Hamas, which would prevent the repeated rounds of shooting.

“In Israel,” Baskin said, “they decided not to decide, and in recent months I took the initiative to push it again.” In recent weeks he renewed contact with Hamas and with Egypt and just this week he was in Egypt and met with top people in the intelligence system and with a Hamas representative. He says he formed the impression that the pressure the Egyptians applied to the Palestinians to stop shooting was serious and sincere.

“He was in line to die, not an angel and not a righteous man of peace,” Baskin said of Jabari and of his feelings in the wake of the killing, “but his assassination also killed the possibility of achieving a truce and also the Egyptian mediators’ ability to function. After the assassination I spoke to the people in Israel angrily and they said to me: We’ve heard you and we are calling to ask if you have heard anything form the Egyptians or from Gaza.”

Since the assassination, Baskin has been in touch with the Egyptians but not with the Palestinians. According to him, the Egyptians are very cool-headed. They said it is necessary to let the fresh blood calm down. "The Egyptian intelligence people are doing what they are doing with the permission and authorization of the regime and apparently they very much believe in this work,” he says.

“I am mainly sad. This is sad for me. I am seeing people getting killed and that is what is making me sad. I tell myself that with every person who is killed we are engendering the next generation of haters and terrorists,” adds Baskin.



Just think of how many people have died since then, 90% of them Palestinian.

No wonder Mandela was behind them all the way.

And of course you are gullible:



Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011

"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood…We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011

“We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our children…Holocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."

Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010

"The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine."

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land...

"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "

Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008

"We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before."

Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008

"This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008

"Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel's actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. … [Israel is] committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008

"We won't succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people."

Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks."

Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies

[The economic crisis is the result of] "bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby."

[The Jewish lobby] "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."

Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."

Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path."

Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006

"[The Tel Aviv suicide bombing] is an an act of self defense... [it is] a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people."

Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida

"[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land."

Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."

Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed... We say Hamas will not change its constant principles."

Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."

Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP

"Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people.... We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people."

Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."

Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas' platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring

"The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter."

Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI

"The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators… We are not a copy of the Taliban... Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom...."

"We are part of Allah's promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah's predestination."

Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI

"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

Mushir al-Masri, Hamas spokesman, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI

"We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine [Rantisi], that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing..."

"We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine – all of Palestine – from the Sea to the River, whether they like it or not."

Hamas leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (killed in April 2004) at a rally in Gaza, March 28, 2004, AP

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God, and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon."

Hamas statement issued after the assassination of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Chicago Tribune, March 25, 2004

"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime. All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime."

Musa Abu Marzuq, Hamas leader, interview with Reuters, March 25, 2004

"We have never targeted an American target or American interests despite its hostility. Until now we did not. I am talking about now. In the future, God knows."

Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP

"She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."

Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin (killed in March 2004), January 30, 2003, Teheran Times

"America is implementing Zionist Israeli policy to serve the Zionist project in Palestine. The battle America is undertaking is designed to allow Israel to remain in the Palestinian homeland...."

"Zionist Israeli and Jewish policy is to strike every power emerging in the Arab and Muslim world… Any country that develops power threatening to this entity (Israel), they want to smash it."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with the Muslim website Alskifa, January 10, 2003, translated by Israel Defense Forces

"Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks....Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide....Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with Australian Muslim youth magazine, Nida'ul Islam, June/ July 2002

"We reject this US domination and this frantic war. From our side, we concentrate on striking blows to it here in Palestine, with the aim of ironing out the Jewish entity in Palestine, which is the cause of trouble in the world..."

"America... always works in favor of the existence of the Israeli entity... This is mainly due to the Zionist-Christian conviction and the 70 million Americans who follow the Protestant creed, which is in favor of Jews against the Muslims. The same applies to most of Britain's population..."

"Because the Israeli and American enemies are ravaging the earth; they do not believe in anything besides power. The Ummah must adopt the principle of Jihad and fighting the enemies."

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview, Palestine-info, March 2001, Early Hamas communiqués (distributed by Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Movement within two months [after the intifada broke] was able to launch qualitative operations that shook the world… there are qualitative Jihad operations such as those in Natanya and Khadera. We are proud of such operations and the next days will witness better and bigger ones...."

"I say that the final battle will result in our victory and that this land will reject this enemy similar to its predecessors..."

"It is not a must that it would be in 2027 for it could be five years earlier or ten years later. The important thing is that the equation revolves round 2027 and the Hebrew state would end Insha'allah [God willing]."

Hamas communiqué, March 9, 1989, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"Come to jihad, come to jihad, come to martyrdom..."
"Those thirsty for Jihad all over the world. For the sake of Allah. For liberating the land of Palestine and Jerusalem...."

"We declared and continue to declare now, that a Jew is a Jew... [do not trust them when they say they want peace because they act only] to serve their religion and their people."

Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."

Hamas communiqué, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."

"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."

"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad's defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia]."

And what the fuck has that got to do with them having brokered a peace agreement and the Israeli's deliberately scuppering it. I could comment of loads of things the Israelis have said. The point was, there was a change of an agreement, it had been worked out and the Israelis made sure it didn't happen and then proceeded to kill and maim thousands of Palestinian men, women and children.

You still don;t get it do you, Hamas have never wanted peace, sure they will broker a truce every now again when it suits them, but their ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel which you clearly don;t get, plus you owe £10 in the swear jar.





ALESTINE — from the river to the sea, from the north to the south — is our land and our right. There will be no surrender of even the smallest piece of it. Palestine was and still is Arab and Islamic.”

These were the words of Khaled Mashaal,

If there was any doubt about his definition of “Palestine”, Mashaal could not have been clearer: “The West Bank, Gaza, the 1948 territories [Israel] — these are Palestinian lands, they are all Palestine. Not one part will be separated from any other part. Gaza and the West Bank cannot surrender Haifa, Jaffa, Beersheba, and Safed [all Israeli cities].”

If there was doubt about Jerusalem, Mashaal was equally unambiguous: “Jerusalem is our eternal capital. Israel has no right to Jerusalem.” And if there was any doubt as to his openness to dialogue or negotiation on these matters, he dispelled it: “The jihad and the armed resistance are the true and correct way to liberation.”


Yes they will have peace deals and once they have stocked up on weapons attack Israel as they always do. Israel is not daft, they know whilst Hamas is in power there will be no peace.

   

What a very dangerous, completely clueless, twerp you are.

One minute you are saying they need to talk to each other, and using it as a weapon in this debate, and the next you say the above.   Not only does you left hand not know what your right hand is doing, but your back is not sure if it's the front after all.

PS Ben couldn't care less about swearing, perhaps he's had to deal with idiots like you before.

Yes the Palestinians need to, not Hamas, Israel needs to and to rid themselves of the Zionists as stated already to sexy, and if all you can offer is insult then we know you have nothing left to debate as per usual.

Reconciliation is the key, but with fanatics like Hamas and Zionists that is not going to happen, they both fuel the hate towards each other

So they are not allowed to have the leaders they want then, only the leaders you and Israel say. Right, that clears that up then, we had better send you to Gaza to let them know   

Didn't you know the Zionists are practically running the ship now?

Well do you back these leaders, that persecute Christians, torture people into confessions and then murder them, segregates schools over sex, enforce Islamism in schools and wants to wipe out all Jews from existence, I could go on the list is endless, I would say exactly the same thing if a Zionist party was in power in Israel and yes some Zionists do have influence, but they don;t run things, if they did, there would be no Palestine at all.

‘The new Zionism’: Nefesh B’Nefesh urges young American Jews to leave ‘exile’ for the Negev
Alex Kane on November 20, 2013 128


On the 17th floor of a Manhattan conference building, young Jews from the New York area listened intently to two Israeli-Americans speak of the wonders of the Jewish state. They were going through the finer points of emigrating to Israel, talking up the varied benefits those who become citizens receive. Outside, it was a dreary and overcast Sunday. But the atmosphere inside was sunny: the banter light-hearted, the jokes from the speakers free-flowing, and all happy to be at the “Think Israel” conference (held on November 17th).

There was a serious task at hand, though: deciding how to choose a community in Israel where they would feel at home, which is part of Nefesh B’Nefesh’s core mission of encouraging aliyah to the Jewish state.

Ravit Greenberg, an Israeli citizen from upstate New York now working for Nefesh B’Nefesh, had just the right answer for them. They should move to the Negev in the south of Israel. It’s an area the government is encouraging Jews to move to with a variety of incentives. Greenberg was asked why the Negev was attractive by a boisterous and overeager pony-tailed man named Aaron.

“They want to encourage development,” Greenberg told him, talking about the Israeli government. And to help the Israeli government, Nefesh B’Nefesh seeks to enlist young North American Jews in the a key state project: populating the Negev with more Israeli Jews.

The crop of Jews sitting in on this session were seriously exploring making the jump from diaspora to what they call the Jewish homeland. One attendee probably in his late 30s or early 40s, who didn’t want his name published, gushed over his future plans. ”At some point, you catch this feeling inside you,” he told me as we stood near the coffee and cookies laid out for us. ”I really feel that someone who’s Jewish should be living in Israel…Here, what am I? I’m living in exile.”

The hundreds of attendees at the annual “Think Israel” conference organized by the Israeli group Nefesh B’Nefesh (”Soul by Soul” in English) had plenty of Israeli areas to choose from to get away from living in “exile.” There are communities in the occupied West Bank they could move to. There’s the north of Israel. There’s Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. And then there’s the Negev, which Greenberg works on and has become a particular focus of Nefesh B’Nefesh over the past two years. The slogan of Nefesh B’Nefesh’s Negev encouragement program is “Go South,” a pioneering ethos that echoes Horace Greeley’s “Go West, young man” slogan, used to push colonization of the American West.

Nefesh B’Nefesh, one of the many arms of the Israeli state–it has received a third of its funding from the government since 2008–began encouraging olim, immigrants who make aliyah, to move to the Negev two years ago, in the midst of an Israeli government drive to populate the area with Jews. The organizations boasts of “offering enhanced services and financial benefits to Olim interested in moving to Israel’s Southern communities.” With the major Israeli cities bursting at the seams, the Negev is a perfect place for the state to accomplish a number of aims: relieve population pressures on urban centers, populate the Negev with Jews and displace and corral the Palestinian-Bedouin population into concentrated, hand-picked areas. And the American Jews at the conference, enamored with the idea of Israel, could soon become the foot-soldiers of Israel’s plan for the Negev.

“It’s turned into a priority for the government of Israel, so as a side-arm, we’re trying to also help them,” Yael Katsman, a spokeswoman for the Jerusalem-based organization, told me. “It’s a wide area that can still be populated…Wherever the Israeli government is populating cities or new areas, we’re basically doing whatever the Israeli government is dictating.”

The Negev is home to many of Israel’s unrecognized Bedouin communities. But for Israel, that’s a problem. The Bedouin Arabs stand in the way of populating the Negev with Jews, which has been a key aim of Zionism, particularly in the thinking of David Ben-Gurion. In 2005, the Jewish National Fund–another arm of the Israeli government that works with Nefesh B’Nefesh–launched “Blueprint Negev,” a $600 million project to build 25 new Jewish communities in the desert region, and in the process make the area a center of employment and business. Ron Lauder, a billionaire ally of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who helped fund “Blueprint Negev,” has said that “the United States had its Manifest Destiny in the West…For Israel, that land is the Negev.”

The importance of the Negev to Zionism was echoed by Rafael Cohen, the director of the Northeast branch of the Jewish Agency. “Today, if you want to be to a Zionist, you have to invest in the periphery…This is the new Zionism,” he said. “The Negev, which is two-thirds of Israel, should be settled by a lot of Jewish people…The olim [will be] a part of it.”

One of the most controversial ways Israel is trying to make the “new Zionism” happen is through the Prawer Plan, an initiative that could displace tens of thousands of Bedouins by demolishing their villages, relocating them to urban areas against their wish and building new Jewish towns on top of the ruins of Bedouin areas. It’s been winding its way through the government over protests from the Bedouin community since 2011, though it has yet to win final Knesset approval. The Jewish Agency and Nefesh B’Nefesh employees seemed to be ignorant of the plan, though, despite the fact that it will help their aims.

Meanwhile, Israel has been moving forward on less ambitious plans to create new Jewish towns on top of Bedouin villages. On November 10, 2013, the Israeli government approved a plan to demolish the Bedouin villages of Umm al-Hiran and Atir, and to replace them with Israeli Jewish neighborhoods.

After Ravit Greenberg and a fellow employee finished their pitch about moving to Israel, Greenberg talked up the Negev to conference attendees at her “Go South” table. She pointed out towns like Sde Boker and Be’er Sheva on her map of where Jews could go live. Perhaps in a few years, Nefesh B’Nefesh will have to update their map of the Negev to include new Jewish towns built on top of Bedouin villages.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/11/zionism-bnefesh-american.html

PhilDidge wrote:Well do you back these leaders, that persecute Christians, torture people into confessions and then murder them, segregates schools over sex, enforce Islamism in schools and wants to wipe out all Jews from existence, I could go on the list is endless, I would say exactly the same thing if a Zionist party was in power in Israel and yes some Zionists do have influence, but they don;t run things, if they did, there would be no Palestine at all.

You didn't read my thread on what the Israeli's are doing to Christians then? I'll post it on here.

And what about the thousands, and it is thousands of woman and children that Israeli's have killed and maimed and burnt down their houses, and taken their land etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc?

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:And if you don't like it terrorist, we can always go elsewhere.

LOLZ   ://?roflmao?/:  
please do  :/pwn://: 

seriously u think we want u here? you cant even add intelligent input to any debate.

I don't mind Shady and Andy at least they have a brain (even if I do disagree with several of their points) and they can follow a fucking thread rather than just trying to attack a poster they have had arguments with in the past on board that is CLOSED because some small dicked wannbe macho closet faggots needed to get their jollies out expressing their rage on the internet, like big men because their lives are actually so fucking sad and they are forced to suck it all day by people smarter more educated and better paid them themselves.

Now who's goading?
Quill is very intelligent for the record by the way Veya and I don;t agree with him on a few view points and many are guilty here of spilling over old feuds, so to point this out to only one is a tad unfair to say the least, so lets how about drop this, for my part I will apologise now to Irn for calling him a liar, as have respect for the man, just we have lots of banter too, but happy to say it was wrong thing to say and should have just continued pushing as Ben stated a better concise reason.

Calling someone faggots is also very poor, if you think calling someone straight with an insult to being gay, when there is nothing wrong with some people who are gay, then you have no understanding in regards to those with homophobic views.

Er, that was on the first page, trying to divert again?

Post about Christians in Israel on the section above.