Israel and Apartheid

by Guest Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Mira Bar Hillel

Friday 13 December 2013

The lame excuses made up by Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to go to Nelson Mandela’s memorial on Tuesday have raised eyebrows and wry smiles all over the world. Having insisted on a £150,000 refit of the plane he and his wife took for the five-hour flight to Lady Thatcher’s funeral in London earlier this year, the trip to Johannesburg would, he claimed, be “too costly”. This from a man who spends thousands a year – from the public purse - on pistachio ice-cream and scented candles.

However, it is quite possible that Mr Netanyahu may have been less than ecstatically welcomed in the new South Africa anyway, following revelations that the country’s apartheid regime was the Israeli defense industry’s biggest customer and sponsor.

For many years it was virtually a capital offence to use the word “apartheid” as an analogy to policies of the Israeli government in the Occupied Territories. In 2007 my friend Danny Rubenstein, the venerated Arab Affairs analyst of Haaretz newspaper, was invited by the Zionist Federation of Great Britain to address an event. On his way he stopped to address a UN committee in Brussels, and used the word “apartheid” to describe Israel’s attitude towards the Palestinians.

In response, he was unceremoniously dumped by the ZFGB and left high and dry in a B&B in Golders Green on a Friday night. He was eventually rescued by the New Fund for Israel and invited to a crowded gathering in a North London Reform synagogue.

But while Rubenstein was mainly concerned to warn the audience of the dangers of Israel following in the footsteps of the Afrikaaners, his interviewer – and most of the questioners - kept harping on what was constantly, if coyly, referred to as “the A-word”.

Yet it now emerges that for decades Israel supported the “A-word” regime and its military with advanced weapon systems at a time when Western sanctions meant no one else would. According to Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, the cooperation reached its peak in the late 1980s, the twilight of the apartheid regime.

In the summer of 1988, Benn says, Israel reportedly sold South Africa 60 Kfir combat planes in a hushed-up deal worth $1.7 billion. The planes were upgraded and renamed Atlas Cheetah and Israel’s involvement was played down because the US was party to the sanctions regime, according to Haaretz.

Israel joined the international sanctions in 1987 but said it would honour existing contracts so the deal went ahead anyway. A few weeks later, the Israelis launched the first Ofek reconnaissance satellite which Benn claims could only have been developed with South African funding. And only in 1991 was the US able to force the Israeli government to stop selling SA short and midrange missiles.

Maps which were only revealed in the past few days show how the Israelis plan to create bantustans for the Nomadic Bedouin in its southern Negev region. Tens of thousands of them would be forced into ghettoes to make way for new Jewish towns and military zones. A-word, anyone?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-and-apartheid-confused-you-will-be-9001321.html

The Israeli Government has got away with too much for too long. I got a communication from some Israeli peace protesters I am in touch with about Netanyahu's excuse for not going to Nelson Mandela's memorial. They had just heard about all this.

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:39 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:Islam is only 1400 years old

Fighting for Israel 2000 years ago would be a pretty neat trick for a religion that was unheard of back then

Israel never invaded Egypt, they pushed the Egyptian army back into Egypt after Egypt tried to genocide the Jews

Palestine doesn't exist, so it can't be invaded

Try getting your facts straight for once

It does exist and the area has been known by this name for centuries, how you deny that is up to you but the one where real people live does, again you seek not to resolve the situation but have one side winning the other losing when do wrongs.

So you are saying a Kingdom of Israel did not exist over 2000 years ago?

Hilarious, so invading someones territory and staying in that territory is pushing the enemy back. I guess we never invaded France through Normandy in WW2 according to smelly, how very silly.

You are offering no debate now

Next

You're waffling AND lying now

You said Islam existed 2000 years ago

Complete ignorance

You say Palestine exists?? It exist as an idea nothing more

There is no country called Palestine nor a nation of people called Palestinians

And Israel return the Egyptian conquered lands shortly after they took them

I love how you try to superimpose the past onto the present

It's almost cute how much you try

by ALLAKAKA Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:00 pm

Can ANYBODY give a sensible idea as to the Land situation in Israel ?

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:12 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

It does exist and the area has been known by this name for centuries, how you deny that is up to you but the one where real people live does, again you seek not to resolve the situation but have one side winning the other losing when do wrongs.

So you are saying a Kingdom of Israel did not exist over 2000 years ago?

Hilarious, so invading someones territory and staying in that territory is pushing the enemy back. I guess we never invaded France through Normandy in WW2 according to smelly, how very silly.

You are offering no debate now

Next

You're waffling AND lying now
No debate again

You said Islam existed 2000 years ago
I said it did not exist 2000 years ago, you just cannot read

Complete ignorance
No debate again

You say Palestine exists?? It exist as an idea nothing more
No it existed as a territory throughout history, why else has the area been called Palestine, because this name carried on since the Roman times, as it was once a provence

There is no country called Palestine nor a nation of people called Palestinians
So you are saying the Romans or the British or the Ottomans, never refered to this area as Palestine now, that is just is made up is or in fact this area has always been refered to throughout history as Palestine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_%22Palestine%22

And Israel return the Egyptian conquered lands shortly after they took them
They still invaded them

I love how you try to superimpose the past onto the present
Actually you are the one bringing up the past which has no relevance, your argument would mean White South Africans have no place to be in Africa, or Europeans in the Americans or Australia, that is the absurd logic you are using

It's almost cute how much you try

Not debate again.

Next

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:14 pm

I honestly don't think you could ever say Israel has invaded another country didge.

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:18 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:I honestly don't think you could ever say Israel has invaded another country didge.

They have invaded both Lebanon and Egypt!

by Irn Bru Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:28 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:I honestly don't think you could ever say Israel has invaded another country didge.

They have invaded both Lebanon and Egypt!

Well not counting them then? Laughing

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:10 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote:

Can ANYBODY give a sensible idea as to the Land situation in Israel ?

yes

wipe out Gaza

wipe out the west bank

no Palestinians no conflict

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:25 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
ALLAKAKA wrote:

Can ANYBODY give a sensible idea as to the Land situation in Israel ?

yes

wipe out Gaza

wipe out the west bank

no Palestinians no conflict

So a second holocaust then?

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:01 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

You're waffling AND lying now
No debate again

You said Islam existed 2000 years ago
I said it did not exist 2000 years ago, you just cannot read

Complete ignorance
No debate again

You say Palestine exists?? It exist as an idea nothing more
No it existed as a territory throughout history, why else has the area been called Palestine, because this name carried on since the Roman times, as it was once a provence

There is no country called Palestine nor a nation of people called Palestinians
So you are saying the Romans or the British or the Ottomans, never refered to this area as Palestine now, that is just is made up is or in fact this area has always been refered to throughout history as Palestine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_%22Palestine%22

And Israel return the Egyptian conquered lands shortly after they took them
They still invaded them

I love how you try to superimpose the past onto the present
Actually you are the one bringing up the past which has no relevance, your argument would mean White South Africans have no place to be in Africa, or Europeans in the Americans or Australia, that is the absurd logic you are using

It's almost cute how much you try

Not debate again.

Next

um yes you did

here it is

"Dear me, we have not only Jews and Muslims that live there but also Christians and other minority faiths and for 2000 years and longer they have all been fighting over who has the right to the land, all daft beyond belief"

yes Palestine was a province of the roman empire,not a country

no country no nation

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:02 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

yes

wipe out Gaza

wipe out the west bank

no Palestinians no conflict

So a second holocaust then?

its about saving lives

start with Gaza where hamas reign and the west bank will fall into line

peace through superior firepower

besides when you're dealing genocidal maniacs its best to talk to them in a language they understand

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:25 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

So a second holocaust then?

its about saving lives

start with Gaza where hamas reign and the west bank will fall into line

peace through superior firepower

besides when you're dealing genocidal maniacs its best to talk to them in a language they understand

Saving lives by mass butchering many innocent lives, where did you learn that argument?

Heard that argument before and it cost 6 million Jews there lives.

Peace comes about through reconciliation and what do you think would happen if Israel did wipe both Gaza and West Bank off the face of the map?
Every Arab country sending all their forces as well as the UN to protect Palestine.

Not a right move and you thus also condemn countless Jews to their deaths in the process.

Bravo, give that man a round of applause for wanting mass people dying

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:32 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Not debate again.

Next

um yes you did

here it is

"Dear me, we have not only Jews and Muslims that live there but also Christians and other minority faiths and for 2000 years and longer they have all been fighting over who has the right to the land, all daft beyond belief"

yes Palestine was a province of the roman empire,not a country

no country no nation

Hilarious, Christians being the point for 2000 years, hence the but also Christians and other minority faiths, like the Samaritans and you go onto me a grammar, hilarious again.

So are you saying their is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

Were there Ukrainian people before it became an independent country?

Oh yes

How about Belarus?

Oh yes

Are the people from for example Kent called Kentish, or Cornwall Cornish people.

So it may not be a country but the people have been referred to as Palestinians for many many years, because the area was and is known as Palestine

Oh dear, back to the drawing board smelly

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:21 pm

I really do not intend to be pedantic but why is a news story about Israel in the Asia news section?

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:24 pm

you should be more clear in your points didge.

you've been picked up on other forums for your terrible English skills, it is not my responsibility to try and decrypt your incoherent ramblings to try and fathom what you're actually trying to say.

if you are so poorly educated that you cannot even form a coherent sentence, then i suggest a debating forum is not the place for you.

no there is no such thing as a Palestinian people became those people were once upon a time Egyptian and Jordanians

they only decided they want to be Palestinians when Israel declared independence

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:32 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:you should be more clear in your points didge.
No counter or debate

you've been picked up on other forums for your terrible English skills, it is not my responsibility to try and decrypt your incoherent ramblings to try and fathom what you're actually trying to say.
No counter or debate

if you are so poorly educated that you cannot even form a coherent sentence, then i suggest a debating forum is not the place for you.
No counter or debate

no there is no such thing as a Palestinian people became those people were once upon a time Egyptian and Jordanians
Or Canaanites or Jebusites or Philistines or Hyksos, yes they have been called many names even Hebrews lived there once, again you miss the point

they only decided they want to be Palestinians when Israel declared independence

No they have been known as Palestinians the people living there for hundreds of years, just like Ukrainians come from an area known as Ukraine or Cornish from Cornwall.

Again back to the drawing bord

Next

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:55 pm

Didge you don't need to tell me you have no counter or debate to my points

I'm well aware of your inability to counter and debate

There is no country called Palestine

If there is no country there can be no nation of Palestinians

The Cornish are not a nation

The Scottish are

Let me know when the penny finally lands

by Ben Reilly Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:56 pm

I was told by a number of members that Smelly would be funny! That logic is just the most laughable thing :D

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:19 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:I was told by a number of members that Smelly would be funny! That logic is just the most laughable thing :D

You heard it here first, you can have Cornish people but not Palestinians, you can also have Ukrainians before Ukraine became a nation, but not Palestinians, you can even have Belorussians before Belarus became a nation but not Palestinians to smelly. Yes very strange every group is recognised as a people but for some reason because smelly says so Palestinians do not exist even though the British refereed to the this area as the Mandate of Palestine and the people as Palestinians, in fact just about every historian refers to the area as Palestine and the Palestinian people.

Yep you heard this logic here first Ben and I said it would be amusing, next he will tell you that you are not a Texan.

lol!

by Ben Reilly Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:22 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:I was told by a number of members that Smelly would be funny! That logic is just the most laughable thing :D

You heard it here first, you can have Cornish people but not Palestinians, you can also have Ukrainians before Ukraine became a nation, but not Palestinians, you can even have Belorussians before Belarus became a nation but not Palestinians to smelly. Yes very strange every group is recognised as a people but for some reason because smelly says so Palestinians do not exist even though the British refereed to the this area as the Mandate of Palestine and the people as Palestinians, in fact just about every historian refers to the area as Palestine and the Palestinian people.

Yep you heard this logic here first Ben and I said it would be amusing, next he will tell you that you are not a Texan.

Can't wait! And I can't wait for the day to arrive when governments decide to revive official Palestinian statehood, which I do believe will eventually come. Then, in rich irony, we'll probably hear from Smelly that governments can't, you know, take people's countries away and make new ones ...

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

by Guest Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:26 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

You heard it here first, you can have Cornish people but not Palestinians, you can also have Ukrainians before Ukraine became a nation, but not Palestinians, you can even have Belorussians before Belarus became a nation but not Palestinians to smelly. Yes very strange every group is recognised as a people but for some reason because smelly says so Palestinians do not exist even though the British refereed to the this area as the Mandate of Palestine and the people as Palestinians, in fact just about every historian refers to the area as Palestine and the Palestinian people.

Yep you heard this logic here first Ben and I said it would be amusing, next he will tell you that you are not a Texan.

Can't wait! And I can't wait for the day to arrive when governments decide to revive official Palestinian statehood, which I do believe will eventually come. Then, in rich irony, we'll probably hear from Smelly that governments can't, you know, take people's countries away and make new ones ...

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

Indeed just like Israel was created itself in 1948, well I live in hope one day this can be reconciled and want nothing more for both to have nations where they recognise each other and live in peace.

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:06 am

That's a major u turn didge

You were telling us earlier how Israel has existed for thousands of years

Now it's apparently only been around since 1948

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:11 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I was told by a number of members that Smelly would be funny! That logic is just the most laughable thing :D

Care to elaborate???

But if it's going to alone the lines of your other posts do try to curb the naivety if possible

I think my sickly sweet-o-meter has been maxed out between didges "let's stop the fighting and just be friends" and your "let people just be people, pass the bong dude" philosophies

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:14 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

You heard it here first, you can have Cornish people but not Palestinians, you can also have Ukrainians before Ukraine became a nation, but not Palestinians, you can even have Belorussians before Belarus became a nation but not Palestinians to smelly. Yes very strange every group is recognised as a people but for some reason because smelly says so Palestinians do not exist even though the British refereed to the this area as the Mandate of Palestine and the people as Palestinians, in fact just about every historian refers to the area as Palestine and the Palestinian people.

Yep you heard this logic here first Ben and I said it would be amusing, next he will tell you that you are not a Texan.

Can't wait! And I can't wait for the day to arrive when governments decide to revive official Palestinian statehood, which I do believe will eventually come. Then, in rich irony, we'll probably hear from Smelly that governments can't, you know, take people's countries away and make new ones ...

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

Would be an amazing trick to revive something has never been in existence

Oh wait you must be one of those folk who live in a world that has no history except the one you create on the day

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:16 am

smelly_bandit wrote:That's a major u turn didge

You were telling us earlier how Israel has existed for thousands of years

Now it's apparently only been around since 1948

I think most people would understand that he was referring to the modern state of Israel which was created in 1948.

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:28 am

Irn Bru wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:That's a major u turn didge

You were telling us earlier how Israel has existed for thousands of years

Now it's apparently only been around since 1948

I think most people would understand that he was referring to the modern state of Israel which was created in 1948.

The modern state of Israel wasn't "created" since it already existed within the footprint of the ancient kingdom of Israel, what happened after WWII wasn't the creating of a country out of nothing but simply an acknowledgment that Israel is and always has been the Jewish homeland and then it was rightfully returned to them

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:31 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Can't wait! And I can't wait for the day to arrive when governments decide to revive official Palestinian statehood, which I do believe will eventually come. Then, in rich irony, we'll probably hear from Smelly that governments can't, you know, take people's countries away and make new ones ...

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

Would be an amazing trick to revive something has never been in existence

Oh wait you must be one of those folk who live in a world that has no history except the one you create on the day

Smelly have you read the Bible? Do you remember the Philistines that the Israelites were always harassing?
Philistine is Palestine. The Torah even says they were there first and the Jew took some of their land.

This thing has been going on for millennia, Emperor Trajan http://www.roman-empire.net/highpoint/trajan-index.html took Israel so technically it wasn't a nation from the 1st century till Until being created after world war 2.

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:45 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:That's a major u turn didge

You were telling us earlier how Israel has existed for thousands of years

Now it's apparently only been around since 1948

I think most people would understand that he was referring to the modern state of Israel which was created in 1948.

The modern state of Israel wasn't "created" since it already existed within the footprint of the ancient kingdom of Israel, what happened after WWII wasn't the creating of a country out of nothing but simply an acknowledgment that Israel is and always has been the Jewish homeland and then it was rightfully returned to them

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel.

You're clutching at straws and most people understood what he meant. Except you that is.

by scrat Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:40 am

Without meaning to be an anti Semite, isn't it time Israel recognised its own borders, the more the land grab goes on, the easier it is to draw parallels with "lebensraum"

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:46 am

scrat wrote:Without meaning to be an anti Semite, isn't it time Israel recognised its own borders, the more the land grab goes on, the easier it is to draw parallels with "lebensraum"

Nothing anti Semite about it, it's what peace activists in Israel have been fighting for, for years and years.

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:06 am

smelly_bandit wrote:That's a major u turn didge

You were telling us earlier how Israel has existed for thousands of years

Now it's apparently only been around since 1948

It once existed as a small kingdom that was wiped off the face of the map by the Assyrian's, who took them all into slavery, only Judah survived a little longer until Nebuchadnezzar from Babylon took them into slavery. They were then freed by the Persians and became a puppet state not even called Israel funny enough, then the Macedonian's ruled them and on and on until you bore me silly with what can only be described as poor history on your part.

During all this time many different groups have ruled the land and for most of it is was called Palestine.

So you are happy for a new nation to be created for Israel in 1948, but not for Palestine, even the UN created two nations in 1948, do you forget that part then?

One of them being Palestine

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:10 pm

Sassy wrote:
scrat wrote:Without meaning to be an anti Semite, isn't it time Israel recognised its own borders, the more the land grab goes on, the easier it is to draw parallels with "lebensraum"

Nothing anti Semite about it, it's what peace activists in Israel have been fighting for, for years and years.

are those the peace activists who get run over by diggers?? cheers

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:12 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

Would be an amazing trick to revive something has never been in existence

Oh wait you must be one of those folk who live in a world that has no history except the one you create on the day

Smelly have you read the Bible? Do you remember the Philistines that the Israelites were always harassing?
Philistine is Palestine. The Torah even says they were there first and the Jew took some of their land.

This thing has been going on for millennia, Emperor Trajan http://www.roman-empire.net/highpoint/trajan-index.html took Israel so technically it wasn't a nation from the 1st century till Until being created after world war 2.

please don't tell me you're trying to establish a link between the ancient philistines and the no nation of squatters incorrectly referred to as Palestinians??

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:25 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

The modern state of Israel wasn't "created" since it already existed within the footprint of the ancient kingdom of Israel, what happened after WWII wasn't the creating of a country out of nothing but simply an acknowledgment that Israel is and always has been the Jewish homeland and then it was rightfully returned to them

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel.

You're clutching at straws and most people understood what he meant. Except you that is.

very amusing

you don't seem to understand the difference between creating a country from nothing and acknowledging that a Jewish homeland has always existed and is now going to be an officially recognized state

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:25 pm

Origins of the Name "Palestine"

Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israel and Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Souther Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/palname.html

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:26 pm

The Origins of the Palestinian Arabs

No "Palestinian Arab people" existed at the start of 1920, but, by December, it took shape in a form recognizably similar to today's.

Until the late nineteenth century, residents living in the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean identified themselves primarily in terms of religion: Moslems felt far stronger bonds with remote co-religionists than with nearby Christians and Jews. Living in that area did not imply any sense of common political purpose.

Then came the ideology of nationalism from Europe; its ideal of a government that embodies the spirit of its people was alien but appealing to Middle Easterners. How to apply this ideal, though? Who constitutes a nation and where must the boundaries be? These questions stimulated huge debates.

Some said the residents of the Levant are a nation; others said Eastern Arabic speakers; or all Arabic speakers; or all Moslems.

But no one suggested "Palestinians," and for good reason. Palestine, then a secular way of saying Eretz Yisra'el or Terra Sancta, embodied a purely Jewish and Christian concept, one utterly foreign to Moslems, even repugnant to them.

This distaste was confirmed in April 1920, when the British occupying force carved out a "Palestine." Moslems reacted very suspiciously, rightly seeing this designation as a victory for Zionism. Less accurately, they worried about it signaling a revival in the Crusader impulse. No prominent Moslem voices endorsed the delineation of Palestine in 1920; all protested it.

Instead, Moslems west of the Jordan directed their allegiance to Damascus, where the great-great-uncle of Jordan's King Abdullah II was then ruling; they identified themselves as Southern Syrians.

Interestingly, no one advocated this affiliation more emphatically than a young man named Amin Husseini. In July 1920, however, the French overthrew this Hashemite king, in the process killing the notion of a Southern Syria.

Isolated by the events of April and July, the Moslems of Palestine made the best of a bad situation. One prominent Jerusalemite commented, just days following the fall of the Hashemite kingdom: "after the recent events in Damascus, we have to effect a complete change in our plans here. Southern Syria no longer exists. We must defend Palestine."

Following this advice, the leadership in December 1920 adopted the goal of establishing an independent Palestinian state. Within a few years, this effort was led by Husseini.

Other identities - Syrian, Arab, and Moslem - continued to compete for decades afterward with the Palestinian one, but the latter has by now mostly swept the others aside and reigns nearly supreme.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/palarabs.html

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:28 pm

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

A common misconception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.

The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel formed the first constitutional monarchy in Palestine about 1000 B.C. The second king, David, first made Jerusalem the nation's capital. Although eventually Palestine was split into two separate kingdoms, Jewish independence there lasted for 212 years. This is almost as long as Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/The_Jewish_Claim_To_The_Land_Of_Israel.html

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:36 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

Smelly have you read the Bible? Do you remember the Philistines that the Israelites were always harassing?
Philistine is Palestine. The Torah even says they were there first and the Jew took some of their land.

This thing has been going on for millennia, Emperor Trajan http://www.roman-empire.net/highpoint/trajan-index.html took Israel so technically it wasn't a nation from the 1st century till Until being created after world war 2.

please don't tell me you're trying to establish a link between the ancient philistines and the no nation of squatters incorrectly referred to as Palestinians??

You still not grasping this and if you want to go down the road of people being descended then the present Jews originate from Italy.

Veya is right many Palestinians were no doubt descended from even Hebrews and Philistines, Canaanite etc and have changed their faith many times.

Now I am a realist and demographics change all the time, but if you are going to go down the road that this are for a short space of time was once called srael is silly to say the least, we might as well lay claim to France again being as England once ruled it

Now lets see who are the real squatters are:

Are most modern Jews primarily of European or Middle and Near Eastern ancestry? That controversial subject—at the heart of the debate over the historical ‘right of return’ claimed by many religious Jews—is back in the headlines with the release of a massive new study published in Nature Communications challenging some established views of the origins of European Jewry.

The total Ashkenazi population is estimated at around 8 million people. The estimated world Jewish population is about 13 million.

Before the advent of advanced DNA research, it had been thought by some historians that European Jewry traced to the largely pagan population of ancient Khazaria in the Caucuses, whose leadership was believed to have converted to Judaism beginning around 700 AD. But that theory—known as the Khazarian hypothesis—has been largely discredited by DNA research. One geneticist, Eran Elhaik, has recently attempted to revive the theory, but his research has been sharply challenged.

A groundbreaking paper published in 2000 by Harry Ostrer, a professor of genetics at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and University of Arizona geneticist Michael Hammer showed that most modern Jews are descended on their male side from a core population of approximately 20,000 Jews who migrated from Italy over the first millennium and eventually settled in Eastern Europe.

“All European [Ashkenazi] Jews seem connected on the order of fourth or fifth cousins,” Ostrer has said.

Known as the so-called “Rhineland hypothesis,” the consensus research holds that most Ashkenazi Jews, as well as many Jews tracing their lineage to Italy, North Africa, Iraq, Iran, Kurdish regions and Yemen, share common paternal haplotypes also found among many Arabs from Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. Only a small percentage of the Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews—less than 25 percent—originated outside of the Near East, presumably as converts.

This historical and genetic mosaic has provided support for the controversial concept of a “Jewish people.” The Law of Return, the Israeli law that established the right of Jews around the world to settle in Israel and which remains in force today, was a central tenet of Zionism. It is invoked by some religious Jews to support territorial claims (even though, based on this research, many Arabs, including Palestinians, where therefore also have a genetic ‘right of return’).

But what about the female lineage? That history is more obscure and contentiously debated. Duke University’s David Goldstein and Mark Thomas of the Center for Genetic Anthropology in London reported in 2002 that much of the mitochondrial DNA of women in Jewish communities around the world that they examined did not seem to be of Middle or Near Eastern origin, and indeed each community had its own genetic pattern. This suggested that migrating Jewish men might have taken on local wives, who converted to Judaism. The estimates of the percentage of Ashkenazi women of European image was probably more than 50 percent, they estimated, but the data was too murky to come up with a firm estimate.

But a subsequent and more extensive study in 2006 by a team based at Technion and Rambam Medical Center in Haifa suggested that Ashkenazi women—40 percent or more—may indeed have had ancient Near and Middle Eastern roots, and may have accompanied their husbands as part of families migrating together.

The new study published in Nature Communications aligns itself more closely with the 2002 hypothesis, although there are differences. Professor Martin Richards, who heads the University of Huddersfield’s Archaeogenetics Research Group (and who participated in the 2002 study), and colleagues sequenced 74 mitochondrial genomes and analyzed more than 3,500 mitochondrial genomes – far more data than the 2006 survey, which reviewed only a short length of the mitochondrial DNA, containing just 1,000 or so of its 16,600 DNA units, in all their subjects.

Richards and his team claim that maternal lineages did not originate in the Near or Middle East or the Khazarian Caucasus but rather, for the most part, within Mediterranean Europe. Another twist in the findings: Jewish women may have been assimilated in Europe as far back as 2,000 years ago—earlier than most other studies have projected. The researchers believe the DNA could trace back to the early Roman Empire, when as much as 10 percent of the population practiced Judaism, many of them converts. Overall, they claim, at least 80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe while 8 percent originated in the Near East, with the rest uncertain.

According to Nicholas Wade of the New York Times, Doron Behar, one of the key authors of the 2006 analysis, said he disagreed with the conclusions, but has provided no detailed critique as yet.

Wade also talked to David Goldstein, who said he believed the estimate that 80 percent of Ashkenazi Jewry originated in Europe was too high considering the unpredictability of mitochondrial DNA data.

The new research underscores an emerging consensus that wandering Jewish men, from the Near East, established a mosaic of small Jewish communities—first in Italy and then scattered throughout Europe, often taking on local gentile wives and raising their children as Jews.

Jon Entine, executive director of the Genetic Literacy Project, is a senior fellow at the Center for Health & Risk Communication and STATS (Statistical Assessment Service) at George Mason University.

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/10/08/ashkenazi-jewish-women-descended-mostly-from-italian-converts-new-study-asserts/#.UuE2ZHBFA0w

The reality is such arguments are absurd, people are living and in conflict when the fact is those in charge cannot be adult enough to resolved differences over land, it is quite pathetic and fuelled and made worse by what I call very silly people who have no connection to the problem, who involve themselves making matters worse whether they back Palestine or Israel

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:54 pm

utterly irrelevant

the Jews own Israel and with luck will soon clear out the squatters

inshallah

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:05 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:utterly irrelevant

the Jews own Israel and with luck will soon clear out the squatters

inshallah

This is why your arguments fail, the Squatters in the majority are the Jews, but I understand why they needed a home because of persecutions in Europe and the Arabs should have accepted their right to a nation as much as Israel should accept Palestine.

The demographics have changed since 1948, but it does not mean each side should continue a feud that is for all intents and purpose ridiculous, as seen by the absurd claims from both sides.

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:08 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:utterly irrelevant

the Jews own Israel and with luck will soon clear out the squatters

inshallah

This is why your arguments fail, the Squatters in the majority are the Jews, but I understand why they needed a home because of persecutions in Europe and the Arabs should have accepted their right to a nation as much as Israel should accept Palestine.

The demographics have changed since 1948, but it does not mean each side should continue a feud that is for all intents and purpose ridiculous, as seen by the absurd claims from both sides.

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

A common misconception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.

The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel formed the first constitutional monarchy in Palestine about 1000 B.C. The second king, David, first made Jerusalem the nation's capital. Although eventually Palestine was split into two separate kingdoms, Jewish independence there lasted for 212 years. This is almost as long as Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/The_Jewish_Claim_To_The_Land_Of_Israel.html

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:09 pm

don't you just hate it when the people you're trying to defend sabotage your arguments??

Embarassed

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:11 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:don't you just hate it when the people you're trying to defend sabotage your arguments??

Sabotage what, all you have is am Israeli source nothing impartial, mine was showing the vast majority of Jews are in your logic Squatters.

So what did you prove accept show a biased source, hilarious and basing this on one Arab leader,. you really cannot make it up how absurd that is

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:19 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:don't you just hate it when the people you're trying to defend sabotage your arguments??

Sabotage what, all you have is am Israeli source nothing impartial, mine was showing the vast majority of Jews are in your logic Squatters.

So what did you prove accept show a biased source, hilarious and basing this on one Arab leader,. you really cannot make it up how absurd that is

sabotage??? what sabotage??

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

as i said, you know nothing of the history of the region or the conflict

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:24 pm

Yes you claim this to be the case from a biased source, how is that evidence?

Again hilarious and again the UN voted for the partition of two states not one.

Again you make me laugh how you clutch at straws, I must remember to present arguments from Himmler in regards to the killings of jews, that is the essence of your claim

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:26 pm

facts cannot be biased

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:27 pm

The Arab Higher Committee boycotted the Commission, explaining that the Palestinian Arabs' natural rights were self-evident and could not continue to be subject to investigation, but rather deserved to be recognized on the basis of the principles of the United Nations Charter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Committee_on_Palestine

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:27 pm

Oh dear

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:36 pm

ill try to say it again in crayon for you didge

A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

do you know who the PLO are??

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:41 pm

Hilarious

The Arab Higher Committee boycotted the Commission, explaining that the Palestinian Arabs' natural rights were self-evident and could not continue to be subject to investigation, but rather deserved to be recognized on the basis of the principles of the United Nations Charter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Committee_on_Palestine

by Guest Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:53 pm

broken record tactic eh??

who are the PLO dodge??

anytime you're ready

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