Israel and Apartheid

veya_victaous wrote:@phil
on the torture point you will find that Sassy is right Hamas don't have the capacity to 'raid' Israel and take captives. that why they are using two bit ballistic rockets, which don't even have basic guidance systems that is how antiquated/backyard they are.
Veya, Hamas has been accused of human rights abuses one being torture, I never said anything about them snatching Israeli soldiers of which they have by the way in the pass.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/03/hamas-torture-detainees-gaza

they have taken the odd Israeli solider, but that is very few in comparison. Palestinians are definitely getting the worst of it over all. Really Israel is more concerned with operatives from Iran and other more powerful middle eastern Nations than Hamas, which is a poorly armed rabble compared to Israel's modern highly professional military.
That still does not excuse their human rights abuses which is not the same in Israel, we are talking about one group being an Islamist group, at odds with anything decent here and classed as a terrorist organisation. Israel is concerned about all nations that do not recognise them, to think they place their foot off the pedal due to the fighting capabilities of a group is in reality naive to say the least

And IF the west stopped intervening you would find Israel taken off the map pretty quickly. It is not a natural state of affairs for it to be there, the people were moved over 1700 years ago, the people that stayed were the Palestinians that have been the continual occupants since old testament times, literally the bible stories about the Jews conquering cities of the 'philistines'...
So by your conclusion, we should never have had any new countries emerge from Ukraine which never existed as a nation before to places like Macedonia or anywhere Else. Why not stop there return to the aborigines the whole of Australia, the same for the indigenous of North and south America. You are also wrong on your belief of how people are descended they bacisally descend back about 10,000 years the people there. The point is a promise was made to both sides during the First World War which was then not kept by the British who I agree have much to answer for the problem, but you cannot change the fact Israel was recognised and that the arab nations did not accept this, which means they have been the ones to have instigated the problems from the word go, even before this with atrocities carried out by Palestinians. The demographics has now changed, you cannot change it back and being as it is about the most democratic place in the whole area, your view points hold no validity, because as seen the world keeps changing all the time, even your own home and I do not see you rushing to give back the lands where you live

Philistine, Palestine they are the same place! they are the same people, they have been their since before Judaism began.

So since they have stuck it out for over 2700 years, I hope they get it back.
10,000 years and you hope all the people of Israel lose the right to a land they have now been living on as a nation for 5 years and some of its people for 10,000 years. That again is plan silly to say the least, the answer is that both have the right to nationhood and both recognise that as well as other Arab nations. You are basically saying the displacement of millions of Jew, because there is no way they are going to live under an Islamic theocracy would go, talk about creating a mass refugee problem for the world with your thinking here Veya. Thus the argument on who has been there first is moot being as people within both can be traced back thousands of years

I also think if the West did let Israel fall, a lot of the animosity towards the west that generates the extremism would end. Hamas would cease to exist simple because it no longer had a good reason to.

Sassy wrote:1.   I didn't vote Labour last time, I will be this time.
Yeah right, anyone the point has been lost on you in regards to complicity, which was the main point

2.   I opposed the war and marched against it.
No doubt with your CND badge on

3.   Even though I marched against it, yes, I as a citizen of this country I am complicit in the deaths caused by our government, I should have shouted longer and louder.
You are not complicit as you are not responsible for actions taken by the Government, that again is illogical

4.   The Israeli's DON'T WANT reconciliation, when it looked as if they might be one they killed the man carrying the agreement, which they had brokered with him.
Oh you and your silly belief there was anything real in a declaration of peace from Hamas, who have sworn to not stop until they see the destruction of Israel. There are some who do not want reconciliation In Israel yet others do, so that again is bullshit on your part just as there are Palestinians who want reconciliation and it is these people we need to look to the future of for peace

5.   Reconcilation is not possible until Israel stops stealing land, which they have explicitally said they are not going to do, and in fact are ramping up.
No it is not possible, but then Hamas also has to make concessions also, it works both ways and you again prove you only look at one side of the argument, so badly so, it is getting embarrassing how badly biased you are

You don't want peace, because you won't acknowledge the obstacles to peace, you simply want the Palestinians to hand everything over and forget they ever existed.

Sassy wrote:No you don't, you just want to boost your own ego by saying that you do, while refusing to recognise the real situation.

waffle

I'd like to put you down in Palestine, as a palestinian, for a week.   You'd soon come screaming home and realise what you are allowing.   And every single person who does not protest about what is happening is allowing it to happen, and is complicit.

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:No you don't, you just want to boost your own ego by saying that you do, while refusing to recognise the real situation.

waffle

I'd like to put you down in Palestine, as a palestinian, for a week.   You'd soon come screaming home and realise what you are allowing.   And every single person who does not protest about what is happening is allowing it to happen, and is complicit.

Waffle

Why would I come home screaming, I would no doubt be persecuted and end up dead murdered by extremists in Hamas as they do already, yep that plan was well worked out stasi.
You are so biased as I say it is now very embarrassing to read what you post, it reeks of desperation.
I have always maintained I have wanted peace and reconciliation, you just throw in poor accusations, because you have someone argue that both sides are wrong and it throws a spanner into your propaganda campaign against Israel, showing again wrongs are done by both sides, where you want to promote a very distorted view of the situation.

Ciao

ALLAKAKA wrote:

When all reason fails scweam Wacist ,

smelly_bandit wrote:well yes of course

the Muslims will never stop trying to destroy the Jews, and so Israel faces a daily battle for survival against their genocidal neighbors

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:well yes of course

the Muslims will never stop trying to destroy the Jews, and so Israel faces a daily battle for survival against their genocidal neighbors

There is no apartheid in Israel but so is there no sense to your logic Smelly. Once upon a time nobody thought whites and blacks would get along, well they do, at one point nobody thought we would travel to the moon, well we did. It is only people that wish to continue a conflict that is the problem and that is people from both sides. Yes there are some Mulisms that will never recognise Israel, whilst there are some Jews that will never recognise Palestine, both fucking idiots, they both wish to see continued bloodshed and deaths over their own stupid pride.

The only way forward has been done before, when two sides say enough is enough, Northern Ireland, South Africa, where people had reached their limits and had enough, they wanted their children to at least live in a home without hate, where people no matter their religious or ethnic group could live alongside each other without any hate or pain or suffering.

Sadly this is always lost on people trying to seek to blame, they never grow up!

smelly_bandit wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


There is no apartheid in Israel but so is there no sense to your logic Smelly. Once upon a time nobody thought whites and blacks would get along, well they do, at one point nobody thought we would travel to the moon, well we did. It is only people that wish to continue a conflict that is the problem and that is people from both sides. Yes there are some Mulisms that will never recognise Israel, whilst there are some Jews that will never recognise Palestine, both fucking idiots, they both wish to see continued bloodshed and deaths over their own stupid pride.

The only way forward has been done before, when two sides say enough is enough, Northern Ireland, South Africa, where people had reached their limits and had enough, they wanted their children to at least live in a home without hate, where people no matter their religious or ethnic group could live alongside each other without any hate or pain or suffering.

Sadly this is always lost on people trying to seek to blame, they never grow up!

If the Palestinians put down their weapons today, tomorrow there would be no more war between Israel and Palestine

If the Israelis put down their weapons today,tomorrow there would be no more Israel

Says it all really, especially when it was the Arabs who started the war in 1948

smelly_bandit wrote:It is about who started it

If the Arabs who started the conflict refuse to accept Israel and choose to continue their genocidal objective then Israel has no option but to continue the fight

The choice of Peace or war is entirely up to "Palestine" they started it they have to be the ones to end it

The example of the Jews in nazi Germany shows us exactly how not defending yourself ends

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:It is about who started it

If the Arabs who started the conflict refuse to accept Israel and choose to continue their genocidal objective then Israel has no option but to continue the fight

The choice of Peace or war is entirely up to "Palestine" they started it they have to be the ones to end it

The example of the Jews in nazi Germany shows us exactly how not defending yourself ends

So solving the problems in Northern Ireland by the Good Friday agreement was about who started it then?

Mandela seeking reconciliation with those from Apartheid was about who started it then?

And continuing a conflict which has seen countless people suffer for 65 years has accomplished nothing.

So no the choice is down to both sides, as both sides continue to throw aside peace in place of conflict. Nobody says Israel should not be able to defend itself, that though does not mean going onto land in the West bank for example and creating settlements, that is not defense but breaking UN law, in other words the settlements are seen as illegal

smelly_bandit wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

So solving the problems in Northern Ireland by the Good Friday agreement was about who started it then?

Mandela seeking reconciliation with those from Apartheid was about who started it then?

And continuing a conflict which has seen countless people suffer for 65 years has accomplished nothing.

So no the choice is down to both sides, as both sides continue to throw aside peace in place of conflict. Nobody says Israel should not be able to defend itself, that though does not mean going onto land in the West bank for example and creating settlements, that is not defense but breaking UN law, in other words the settlements are seen as illegal

as usual you desperately divert the thread and run for your default safety net - northern Ireland,
Actually South Africa and Northern Ireland are perfect examples

a conflict that has pretty much nothing in common with what is happening in Israel apart from the fact that there are guns and bombs involved, which is probably the limit of your understanding of armed conflict
They have many things in common, from years of conflict and violence, where many thought it impossible to reconcile and as seen my knowledge is excellent being as you cannot refute these points  

the UN is nothing, it hasn't even got the power to take a piss in its own toilet never mind dictate laws to independent sovereign states
Maybe so many nations now are not standing behind Israel anymore, thus less friends means less help, which in time will lead  to both sides seeking peace and reconciliation in the long term

as far as Israel is concerned the settlements are its defense, which is a fair assessment in my eyes  

smelly_bandit wrote:yes exactly didge the only things you can think of that NI and Israel have in common is that they were locked in conflict and violence for years

that is where the comparison ends

NI wasn't torn apart by factions that where fighting for a religious Armageddon the way the Palestinians are against the Jews, your belief that the conflict is about land show how truly little you pay attention to what the factions themselves are saying

when Israel became independent the first words out of the Arab Muslims mouth wasn't "we want our lands back" it was "push the Jews into the sea"

the conflict is about religious hatred from the Muslims to the Jews

the Hamas charter itself is replete with reference to the qur'an and haidths

here is a taster


PART I



                       

every single thought is rooted in Islamic theology, the Muslims in gaza voted Hamas into power and hamas is not a one off isolated group, its one of thousands of like minded groups supported by millions of like minded Muslims across the world

you know nothing about the conflict or the motivation behind the fighting,because everything you claim is in direct conflict with what the actual people doing the fighting are saying

this isn't about land that was stolen by the Jews its about the Islamic view that any land taken by force belongs to allah until the end of time, the fact that it was taken by force seem to be something you are willing to overlook  

that means that there can never be any peace so long as there are organizations like hamas allowed to survive and dictate terms

smelly_bandit wrote:no

Palestine is not a nation, Palestine is a terrorist movement created by the Islamic world to be used as a proxy for the genocidal campaign against the Jews  
Really I thought the Romans created the territory of Palestine, that was before Islam, so that is woefully incorrect

before the war in 1948,the people who lived in the west bank and gaza were  annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively and never once did these people demand a homeland for themselves, there were no terrorist attacks against Egypt or Jordan, and the arab living there were more than happy with their lot in life
Yes we know the history and you are talking about events in the past, this is the present and in the present there is conflict, which only peace and reconciliation will solve, which means people disowning both the Zionists and Hamas. So if you really want a lesson on history be my guest as I am happy to educate you on this, but again you do not resolve something with constant blame thrown by both sides

it was only after the formation of the Jewish state that these people decided they wanted a homeland of their own.
Really they were also in talks with the British to form their own nation, in fact empty promises were made by the British to both Jews and Palestinians, again your point has no relevance, this is now, not 70 years gone, and what is needed is both sides to recognise each others right to exist and to stop wrongs being done  

Jordan and Egypt need to acceptance responsibility for their former colonies and re annex the west bank and Gaza strip  

smelly_bandit wrote:a territory is neither a nation nor a country, so you have simply proved my point that the Palestinians are not a nation
Yet it was called Palestine under both the British, and Romans and even the Ottomans, funny that, was it called Israel throughout all this time? Israel was just a kingdom that lasted only a couple of hundred years
Nope

Palestine is what i described it as  - a terrorist movement created by the Islamic world to be used as a proxy for the genocidal campaign against the Jews  
No Hamas is a terrorist movement, which Governments class Palestine as a Terrorist movement out of all of them?
Take your time

you keep waffling on about the pipe dream of peace and reconciliation  achieved by people moving away from hamas,
And Zionists and yet we see where people doubted other events would not happen and yet they did, reconciliation between Serbia and Bosnia, the Good Friday agreement and Mandela with those of Apartheid. Nobody is saying it is going to happen overnight, it will happen when both sides denounce both the Zionists and Hamas

wake up call pal.

hamas enjoy not only international support and completely impunity from international condemnation for their actions but enough support amongst Palestinians to be democratically elected
Really, would you like some links on human rights watch or others?

so when we consider that hamas has an international fan base and that their movement is based  on a never ending religious quest to retake Israel through armed conflict  
Hamas is wrong and have stated this, and have stated they need to recognise Israel, they won't just like Zionists will not recognise Palestine, hence why the people need to stand against both.

i don't think they are going to be up for peace reconciliation anytime soon, and that means that Israel has no choice but to continue fighting

smelly_bandit wrote:you're boring me now because you simply keep repeating yourself
No counter admitting defeat

if you don't want to accept the reality that the mindset embodied by Hamas is what started this conflict and until that mindset is eradicated there will never be an end
Mindset, it was always about people claiming the land was theirs on both sides, nothing more nothing less[

that mindset is rooted in Islamic theology
Really, is that why Zionists say it is their God given right to lands then as stated in the Torah?

so as long as there are Muslims and Islam in the middle east there will be conflict with Israel  
No, as long as there are Hamas and Zionists, there will be conflict, both need to be ostracized by the Jews and Palestinians

keep dreaming because Israel isn't going anywhere, they will continue to rightly build settlements and there is little you or Hamas or sassy and her peace activists can do about it
Hilarious, I have always backed the right of Israel to have a nation, never once claimed they should not and I also back the right of Palestine to have a nation too

whine and cry all you want
Well as you are making things up I never said, I guess you must be admitting defeat  

smelly_bandit wrote:it was a one sided land grab by the Muslims who consider any land taken by force to belong to allah forever after,
Dear me, we have not only Jews and Muslims that live there but also Christians and other minority faiths and for 2000 years and longer they have all been fighting over who has the right to the land, all daft beyond belief

it was the MUSLIMS who invade Israel not the other way round
And yet Israel has invaded also into Palestine and Lebanon and Egypt, odd that.

you should be aware that the qur'an ALSO says the land of Israel is reserved for the Jews

7:137        
"And We made a people considered weak (and of no account) inheritors of lands in both east and west lands whereon We sent down our blessings.  The fair promise of the Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel because they had patience and constancy; and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). We took the Children of Israel (with safety) across the sea"

whoopsy bet you didn't count on that
 ://?roflmao?/: Why should I be concerned over some man made myth that lays claim to who owns the land, we are talking about groups of people living there in conflict all the time.
What next are you going to produce the Torah?

we are done here

smelly_bandit wrote:Islam is only 1400 years old

Fighting for Israel 2000 years ago would be a pretty neat trick for a religion that was unheard of back then

Israel never invaded Egypt, they pushed the Egyptian army back into Egypt after Egypt tried to genocide the Jews


Palestine doesn't exist, so it can't be invaded

Try getting your facts straight for once