Israel and Apartheid

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Mira Bar Hillel

Friday 13 December 2013


The lame excuses made up by Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to go to Nelson Mandela’s memorial on Tuesday have raised eyebrows and wry smiles all over the world. Having insisted on a £150,000 refit of the plane he and his wife took for the five-hour flight to Lady Thatcher’s funeral in London earlier this year, the trip to Johannesburg would, he claimed, be “too costly”. This from a man who spends thousands a year – from the public purse - on pistachio ice-cream and scented candles.

However, it is quite possible that Mr Netanyahu may have been less than ecstatically welcomed in the new South Africa anyway, following revelations that the country’s apartheid regime was the Israeli defense industry’s biggest customer and sponsor.

For many years it was virtually a capital offence to use the word “apartheid” as an analogy to policies of the Israeli government in the Occupied Territories. In 2007 my friend Danny Rubenstein, the venerated Arab Affairs analyst of Haaretz newspaper, was invited by the Zionist Federation of Great Britain to address an event. On his way he stopped to address a UN committee in Brussels, and used the word “apartheid” to describe Israel’s attitude towards the Palestinians.

In response, he was unceremoniously dumped by the ZFGB and left high and dry in a B&B in Golders Green on a Friday night. He was eventually rescued by the New Fund for Israel and invited to a crowded gathering in a North London Reform synagogue.

But while Rubenstein was mainly concerned to warn the audience of the dangers of Israel following in the footsteps of the Afrikaaners, his interviewer – and most of the questioners - kept harping on what was constantly, if coyly, referred to as “the A-word”.

Yet it now emerges that for decades Israel supported the “A-word” regime and its military with advanced weapon systems at a time when Western sanctions meant no one else would. According to Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, the cooperation reached its peak in the late 1980s, the twilight of the apartheid regime.

In the summer of 1988, Benn says, Israel reportedly sold South Africa 60 Kfir combat planes in a hushed-up deal worth $1.7 billion. The planes were upgraded and renamed Atlas Cheetah and Israel’s involvement was played down because the US was party to the sanctions regime, according to Haaretz.

Israel joined the international sanctions in 1987 but said it would honour existing contracts so the deal went ahead anyway. A few weeks later, the Israelis launched the first Ofek reconnaissance satellite which Benn claims could only have been developed with South African funding. And only in 1991 was the US able to force the Israeli government to stop selling SA short and midrange missiles.

Maps which were only revealed in the past few days show how the Israelis plan to create bantustans for the Nomadic Bedouin in its southern Negev region. Tens of thousands of them would be forced into ghettoes to make way for new Jewish towns and military zones. A-word, anyone?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-and-apartheid-confused-you-will-be-9001321.html

The Israeli Government has got away with too much for too long. I got a communication from some Israeli peace protesters I am in touch with about Netanyahu's excuse for not going to Nelson Mandela's memorial. They had just heard about all this.

Would you mind not telling me what I need to learn, as I have been campaigning with Israeli Peace Activists for year, and address what is happening to the Bedouins, because that is apartheid, and its happening now and its illegal and has been condemned by the UN.

Sassy wrote:Would you mind not telling me what I need to learn, as I have been campaigning with Israeli Peace Activists for year, and address what is happening to the Bedouins, because that is apartheid, and its happening now and its illegal and has been condemned by the UN.

I told you what you need to learn, again you don;t listen, you need to stop looking to blame, and look for a way forward for both the Palestinians and Israeli's.
Again there is no Apartheid, that is an illusion you have dreamt up, all for a political cause, which serves no Palestinian or Israeli!

You are the one not listening, you are avoiding and refusing to look at something you don't like, that goes against what you believe. Avoid it all you like, the Bedouin situation is going on today and it is Apartheid and it has been condemned by the UN.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Evening Didge.

Indeed I am capable of looking up for the information and it just doesn't exist. And these claims are coming out just after Mandela died probably as a reason to divert attention away from Israel's snub to South Africa in not sending a delegation to Mandela's funeral.
And all this stuff is from a country that has no problem sticking false British passports on its trained assasins sent out to murder people so I wouldn't believe anything that they come out with without first checking on their reliability.
When the Israeli government starts forcing certain groups of people from their land and their homes to go and live in areas chosen for them so as to make room for a different group of people of their choosing then that is setting them apart and is therefore a form of apartheid in every sense of the word.
But the main theme of this thread is the Israel support for the South African apartheid government which must be condemned at every opportunity and must surely be seen as a snub to South Africa and the legacy left by Nelson Mandela.
I just can't see it any other way.

Oh the evidence exist Irn, it is more about whether you truly believe the evidence is real, that should have been your question, not that you choose to believe it does not exist. Lets face some realities here, many nations did little whilst apartheid carried on under both Labour and Conservative Governments and how even America had dubbed the organisation he served as terrorist, all were very much complicit, and you are telling you have the ability to just bemoan Israel over this? Seriously, is that your argument? Again your understanding is based solely upon blame of Israel, you seek no learning of what happens on both sides, you seek only to see what Israel does wrong and that is not even close to being logical. Yes Israel has done many wrongs, as has done Palestine, but seeking an argument over who has done what achieves what exactly?
Nothing.
If your only intention or Sassy's was to seek people to condemn Israel for this action, then your whole concept of what is right, is thus clearly wrong, you seek only to judge one for what it does and yet choose to ignore what others do to them, it is not only a failed concept, but a failed argument. Both do wrongs and on both sides both wish to continue  the hostilities and do you really think Sassy's beliefs and views help the situation also.? If you do, you are sadly wrong, as hope and peace come from not casting blame, but putting aside any difference you have, just like we have, even when we do not agree, shows how people can build bridges where many people thought was impossible. That is how you solve a problem, as we have done and Sassy needs to learn from that, her arguments are like those who are Islamophobes, they seek to whip people up with anger, using hate and I find that very illogical. You only find peace when you realise when both sides themselves recognise the futility of what they do and realise they were both wrong

Show me the evidence Didge. Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Oh the evidence exist Irn, it is more about whether you truly believe the evidence is real, that should have been your question, not that you choose to believe it does not exist. Lets face some realities here, many nations did little whilst apartheid carried on under both Labour and Conservative Governments and how even America had dubbed the organisation he served as terrorist, all were very much complicit, and you are telling you have the ability to just bemoan Israel over this? Seriously, is that your argument? Again your understanding is based solely upon blame of Israel, you seek no learning of what happens on both sides, you seek only to see what Israel does wrong and that is not even close to being logical. Yes Israel has done many wrongs, as has done Palestine, but seeking an argument over who has done what achieves what exactly?
Nothing.
If your only intention or Sassy's was to seek people to condemn Israel for this action, then your whole concept of what is right, is thus clearly wrong, you seek only to judge one for what it does and yet choose to ignore what others do to them, it is not only a failed concept, but a failed argument. Both do wrongs and on both sides both wish to continue  the hostilities and do you really think Sassy's beliefs and views help the situation also.? If you do, you are sadly wrong, as hope and peace come from not casting blame, but putting aside any difference you have, just like we have, even when we do not agree, shows how people can build bridges where many people thought was impossible. That is how you solve a problem, as we have done and Sassy needs to learn from that, her arguments are like those who are Islamophobes, they seek to whip people up with anger, using hate and I find that very illogical. You only find peace when you realise when both sides themselves recognise the futility of what they do and realise they were both wrong

Show me the evidence Didge.  Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

Yep, countries stood by, they didn't blasted sell them arms though when the rest of the world wouldn't.

Sassy wrote:You are the one not listening, you are avoiding and refusing to look at something you don't like, that goes against what you believe.   Avoid it all you like, the Bedouin situation is going on today and it is Apartheid and it has been condemned by the UN.

There is only one thing I dislike about the situation, that people try to incite hate against people because they are to blind to try and reason, that they are too stubborn to see what they do does absolutely nothing to help the problem, as they choose to seek taking a side, as the reality is nobody is right here, all are wrong and it is only the innocent that suffer. Until you understand that concept you will never understand peace will only come there when both sides recognise what they both do is wrong and this will happen when the civilians  on both sides have had enough of being used in nothing more than a game of chess and decide to take a stand for each other in seeking a better future

You are talking total codswollop. Nobody is inciting hate, I, and the Israeli peace activists, are trying to do something about a situation that is both illegal and a disgrace. I wouldn't stick my head in the sand about apartheid in S.Africa when it was there, and I won't do it about apartheid in Israel. To pretend it doesn't exist is to help it.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Oh the evidence exist Irn, it is more about whether you truly believe the evidence is real, that should have been your question, not that you choose to believe it does not exist. Lets face some realities here, many nations did little whilst apartheid carried on under both Labour and Conservative Governments and how even America had dubbed the organisation he served as terrorist, all were very much complicit, and you are telling you have the ability to just bemoan Israel over this? Seriously, is that your argument? Again your understanding is based solely upon blame of Israel, you seek no learning of what happens on both sides, you seek only to see what Israel does wrong and that is not even close to being logical. Yes Israel has done many wrongs, as has done Palestine, but seeking an argument over who has done what achieves what exactly?
Nothing.
If your only intention or Sassy's was to seek people to condemn Israel for this action, then your whole concept of what is right, is thus clearly wrong, you seek only to judge one for what it does and yet choose to ignore what others do to them, it is not only a failed concept, but a failed argument. Both do wrongs and on both sides both wish to continue  the hostilities and do you really think Sassy's beliefs and views help the situation also.? If you do, you are sadly wrong, as hope and peace come from not casting blame, but putting aside any difference you have, just like we have, even when we do not agree, shows how people can build bridges where many people thought was impossible. That is how you solve a problem, as we have done and Sassy needs to learn from that, her arguments are like those who are Islamophobes, they seek to whip people up with anger, using hate and I find that very illogical. You only find peace when you realise when both sides themselves recognise the futility of what they do and realise they were both wrong

Show me the evidence Didge.  Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

So Israel didn't and that is your argument?
I was right, your argument is not one of peace but blame, that serves nobody and again your evidence is from Israel. Whether you choose to believe is up to you, but you have no concept of peace, you only understand conflict and you just proved it so!

Sassy wrote:You are talking total codswollop.   Nobody is inciting hate, I, and the Israeli peace activists, are trying to do something about a situation that is both illegal and a disgrace.   I wouldn't stick my head in the sand about apartheid in S.Africa when it was there, and I won't do it about apartheid in Israel.   To pretend it doesn't exist is to help it.

I am talking sense and hence why you do not like it, for one reason it is hitting home, as any advocate of peace would agree with my points, so is peace more important or casting blame sassy?

Take your time on that point, though I will understand if you need to phone a friend

It was the reasons why he didn't. Peace isn't obtained by covering your ears and going la la la la la, its obtained by facing the facts and dealing with them.

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:You are talking total codswollop.   Nobody is inciting hate, I, and the Israeli peace activists, are trying to do something about a situation that is both illegal and a disgrace.   I wouldn't stick my head in the sand about apartheid in S.Africa when it was there, and I won't do it about apartheid in Israel.   To pretend it doesn't exist is to help it.

I am talking sense and hence why you do not like it, for one reason it is hitting home, as any advocate of peace would agree with my points, so is peace more important or casting blame sassy?  

Take your time on that point, though I will understand if you need to phone a friend

You are talking rubbish and the only thing you could hit would have to be very large or you would miss. Peace cannot come until wrongs are righted, and when MORE wrongs are being done at the moment, they have to be stopped.

Sassy wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

I am talking sense and hence why you do not like it, for one reason it is hitting home, as any advocate of peace would agree with my points, so is peace more important or casting blame sassy?  

Take your time on that point, though I will understand if you need to phone a friend

You are talking rubbish and the only thing you could hit would have to be very large or you would miss.   Peace cannot come until wrongs are righted, and when MORE wrongs are being done at the moment, they have to be stopped.

Now I know I am not talking rubbish because your counter is based on disclaiming my argument is to attack me with poor views as rubbish and that is not a counter, it is a submission of defeat and that means my point has hit home. Again, did Mandela achieve his goals by righting wrongs done by seeking retribution?

The answer to that is the key to your salvation here.

You have so much to learn

What? Er - so what was you 'phone a friend' bit. Now, lets take a deep breath, and tell me what you would call taking legitimate land away from the Bedouin, that they own, making them live in an area they don't want to live in, not allowing them to live anywhere else, taking away their right to own land, and using the land that has been taken away to build on for yourself to expand your country? Go on, put a name to it.

Sassy wrote:What?   Er - so what was you 'phone a friend' bit.   Now, lets take a deep breath, and tell me what you would call taking legitimate land away from the Bedouin, that they own, making them live in an area they don't want to live in, not allowing them to live anywhere else, taking away their right to own land, and using the land that has been taken away to build on for yourself to expand your country?    Go on, put a name to it.

Again your argument is on blame, you want me to say what is done is right or wrong and what does that achieve?
Nothing, we all know what is wrong, it is all about when both sides recognize what they do is wrong and yet you still fail to see that sassy. You have not the first notion of what is peace, if you did would understand the futility of an argument, because when people argue, their views and judgement are clouded, of which you do now. You seek only to cast blame on way, when blame is both ways and both sides are wrong, that is what you fail to learn

What argument? I asked you a particular question, which again you are avoiding.

Sassy wrote:What argument?   I asked you a particular question, which again you are avoiding.

What did you fail to understand when I said both sides do wrong exactly?

We are not talking about sides, we are talking about an action that is being taken at the moment and what you would call it.

Sassy wrote:We are not talking about sides, we are talking about an action that is being taken at the moment and what you would call it.

You just proved again you are taking sides, when no side is right and you ask when action is done that is wrong, is that you wish to only point out one side, what does that prove?
That you are not willing to seek to find a way forward, you only seek to blame.
Now Germany and both Japan did many wrongs in WW2, do we move forward from seeking to blame those that did and thus make all within that nation complicit to those who committed crimes, or do we learn from that, as they have learnt from that and find a way to move forward?

Have a think about what you just said, because what you are saying is you should not oppose unjust and illegal situations because you happen to agree with the country involved. Have a think while I do a couple of jobs.

Sassy wrote:Have a think about what you just said, because what you are saying is you should not oppose unjust and illegal situations because you happen to agree with the country involved.   Have a think while I do a couple of jobs.

I never said you should not oppose injustices, not once, what I said is you cannot move forward whilst thinking to seek only blame, peace is not won that way. Wrongs are punished as they should be, but it never solves a problem between people, it only seeks to satisfy a need of some people and if the reality to you is retribution for wrongs done, then you never look to see if people can change but that people should continue to hate. Peace is found within forgiveness, not hate and the hardest thing to do is to forgive a wrong, but it is the most noblest thing to do,  Yes we have to do what is right and put away people that do wrong, but sometimes just like with Mandela it takes something very unique to bring forth change, something unexpected, not revenge, not look to seek retribution, but to move forward together, side by side, where once they were enemies.
For peace to happen, that is what Israel and Palestine must do, look past what was wrong and start to make things right

Shall catch up with this tomorrow/

Night

Bedouin plight avoided again, you keep saying the same thing which is nothing to do with the thread, which was about what is happening to the Bedouin, which is apartheid.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Show me the evidence Didge.  Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

So Israel didn't and that is your argument?
I was right, your argument is not one of peace but blame, that serves nobody and again your evidence is from Israel. Whether you choose to believe is up to you, but you have no concept of peace, you only understand conflict and you just proved it so!

That's right, they didn't, they supported the apartheid regime just like this country did for a while. It's not about blame it's about Israel's refusal to send a delegation to mark the death of Nelson Mandela and the legacy he left. Why do you think they did that?

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:Have a think about what you just said, because what you are saying is you should not oppose unjust and illegal situations because you happen to agree with the country involved.   Have a think while I do a couple of jobs.

I never said you should not oppose injustices, not once, what I said is you cannot move forward whilst thinking to seek only blame, peace is not won that way. Wrongs are punished as they should be, but it never solves a problem between people, it only seeks to satisfy a need of some people and if the reality to you is retribution for wrongs done, then you never look to see if people can change but that people should continue to hate. Peace is found within forgiveness, not hate and the hardest thing to do is to forgive a wrong, but it is the most noblest thing to do,  Yes we have to do what is right and put away people that do wrong, but sometimes just like with Mandela it takes something very unique to bring forth change, something unexpected, not revenge, not look to seek retribution, but to move forward together, side by side, where once they were enemies.
For peace to happen, that is what Israel and Palestine must do, look past what was wrong and start to make things right

Shall catch up with this tomorrow/

Night

Shown some good analysis skills in this debate, Phil. I like your distinction between progress and blame. And I think you are right in this debate.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

So Israel didn't and that is your argument?
I was right, your argument is not one of peace but blame, that serves nobody and again your evidence is from Israel. Whether you choose to believe is up to you, but you have no concept of peace, you only understand conflict and you just proved it so!

That's right, they didn't, they supported the apartheid regime just like this country did for a while. It's not about blame it's about Israel's refusal to send a delegation to mark the death of Nelson Mandela and the legacy he left. Why do you think they did that?

I have no idea why he did that I can only guess, they have their reasons, it did not make any difference to the legacy of Mandela, that lives on no matter who attends. I am sure it will all be down to Mandela supporting the use of violence against Israel, which was why he did not attend. Was it the right thing not to attend, I would say it was a political blunder not to, but I also think it has much to do with public opinion within Israel itself and that is the real reason he did not attend.

The point is what has been achieved by pointing this out exactly? As both Palestine and Israel have learnt nothing of the legacy of Mandela and until they do there will always be a problem and there is those within each side that wish to continue the fight and that is not the way forward. Peace can only be achieved when both sides put aside their differences, as retribution is not the key to peace, reconciliation is

Original Quill wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

I never said you should not oppose injustices, not once, what I said is you cannot move forward whilst thinking to seek only blame, peace is not won that way. Wrongs are punished as they should be, but it never solves a problem between people, it only seeks to satisfy a need of some people and if the reality to you is retribution for wrongs done, then you never look to see if people can change but that people should continue to hate. Peace is found within forgiveness, not hate and the hardest thing to do is to forgive a wrong, but it is the most noblest thing to do,  Yes we have to do what is right and put away people that do wrong, but sometimes just like with Mandela it takes something very unique to bring forth change, something unexpected, not revenge, not look to seek retribution, but to move forward together, side by side, where once they were enemies.
For peace to happen, that is what Israel and Palestine must do, look past what was wrong and start to make things right

Shall catch up with this tomorrow/

Night

Shown some good analysis skills in this debate, Phil.  I like your distinction between progress and blame.  And I think you are right in this debate.

Good Morning Quill

Thanks, I find debate like this always miss the real point on obtaining peace.

Original Quill wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

I never said you should not oppose injustices, not once, what I said is you cannot move forward whilst thinking to seek only blame, peace is not won that way. Wrongs are punished as they should be, but it never solves a problem between people, it only seeks to satisfy a need of some people and if the reality to you is retribution for wrongs done, then you never look to see if people can change but that people should continue to hate. Peace is found within forgiveness, not hate and the hardest thing to do is to forgive a wrong, but it is the most noblest thing to do,  Yes we have to do what is right and put away people that do wrong, but sometimes just like with Mandela it takes something very unique to bring forth change, something unexpected, not revenge, not look to seek retribution, but to move forward together, side by side, where once they were enemies.
For peace to happen, that is what Israel and Palestine must do, look past what was wrong and start to make things right

Shall catch up with this tomorrow/

Night

Shown some good analysis skills in this debate, Phil.  I like your distinction between progress and blame.  And I think you are right in this debate.

For someone who has continually pinned the blame on Iran for the ongoing problems in the Israel/Palestinian conflict I find you comments here to be extremely at odds with your comments elsewhere.

Oh deary me

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

That's right, they didn't, they supported the apartheid regime just like this country did for a while. It's not about blame it's about Israel's refusal to send a delegation to mark the death of Nelson Mandela and the legacy he left. Why do you think they did that?

I have no idea why he did that I can only guess, they have their reasons, it did not make any difference to the legacy of Mandela, that lives on no matter who attends. I am sure it will all be down to Mandela supporting the use of violence against Israel, which was why he did not attend. Was it the right thing not to attend, I would say it was a political blunder not to, but I also think it has much to do with public opinion within Israel itself and that is the real reason he did not attend.

The point is what has been achieved by pointing this out exactly? As both Palestine and Israel have learnt nothing of the legacy of Mandela and until they do there will always be a problem and there is those within each side that wish to continue the fight and that is not the way forward. Peace can only be achieved when both sides put aside their differences, as retribution is not the key to peace, reconciliation is

Good morning Didge,

I really wish you had said that right at the start of this debate because it was his refusal to go that was at the heart of this debate right from the off.
Instead we have had the debate firing off in all directions which is fine to an extent but in many ways missing the original point that was raised in the OP.

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Shown some good analysis skills in this debate, Phil.  I like your distinction between progress and blame.  And I think you are right in this debate.

For someone who has continually pinned the blame on Iran for the ongoing problems in the Israel/Palestinian conflict I find you comments here to be extremely at odds with your comments elsewhere.

Oh deary me

Morning Irn

Can we please stick to the debate and leave past issue's behind?

Thanks

Maybe you can tell me why it is so important this issue here of Benjamin Netanyahu missing the funeral

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

For someone who has continually pinned the blame on Iran for the ongoing problems in the Israel/Palestinian conflict I find you comments here to be extremely at odds with your comments elsewhere.

Oh deary me

Morning Irn

Can we please stick to the debate and leave past issue's behind?

Thanks

Maybe you can tell me why it is so important this issue here of Benjamin Netanyahu missing the funeral

This is part of the debate and the comments made by Quill about Iran are on this forum and were made this very morning.

Benjamin Netanyahu snubbing Mandela's funeral is the subject of the debate. We started off discussing that from the the opening post.

Anyway, I have to go, so much to do but I'll be back later.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Morning Irn

Can we please stick to the debate and leave past issue's behind?

Thanks

Maybe you can tell me why it is so important this issue here of Benjamin Netanyahu missing the funeral

This is part of the debate and the comments made by Quill about Iran are on this forum and were made this very morning.

Benjamin Netanyahu snubbing Mandela's funeral is the subject of the debate. We started off discussing that from the the opening post.

Anyway, I have to go, so much to do but I'll be back later.

Yes i would like to know your views on him snubbing the funeral, of which I am asking

Irn has already said.

Your view on what to call the Bedouin situation?

Sassy wrote:Irn has already said.  

Your view on what to call the Bedouin situation?  

No he has not he said he will answer when he comes back, what has your question to do with the thread on him attending the funeral?

Sigh!

Forced relocation of Bedouin and the taking away of their land and rights to move?

Sassy wrote:Sigh!

Forced relocation of Bedouin and the taking away of their land and rights to move?

That is a complete lie, there is no resettlement plan, it was shelved

Sigh indeed, I really find your argument on Israel so negative that if we included yourself in peace talks there would no doubt be all out war within 1 hour between both sides, you still fail to grasp what is the only way forward, reconciliation

Yes, finally, because of all the protests and the absolute uproar it caused, they shelved it, took you some time to twig lol. But you think it was wrong? You think it was an apartheid policy and that's why it caused such uproar?

But it's only what they have been doing to the Palestinians isn't it?

And there cannot be reconciliation while they are still doing it. They have more planned.

So there is no more resettlement, though you posted forced relocation, which has not happened.
There were reasons behind this but you clearly have no understanding of apartheid it seems, which is the systematic segregation throughout everything in society of ethnic groups and that is not the reality at all but the makings of left wing thinking!

Lets get some other facts straight here also, Israel has been attacked constantly since its formations and again arguing over who does right or wrong is pointless when you yourself never recognise any of the crimes committed by Palestinian, when both sides are wrong. Your whole argument is not one that will bring about a resolution it seeks to only blame Israel and that will not as shown and debated achieve anything.

Again this is about reconciliation and the debate is about attending Mandela's funeral of which I am yet to see why this is an issue to some people here and for them to explain why?

Ah, that old chestnut, Israel has been constantly attacked, while ignoring the fact that it constantly, and still is, taking land legally owned by Palestinians, making them leave and bulldozing their houses, amongst many other things, forced relocation, waging war without rockets etc. And they have more planned, they have said so. You can't reconcile while that is going on, and when they say they have no intention of stopping it. And it is Apartheid.

Thank you for proving my point, you are not interesting in wrongs done to Israel, only Palestine, I admit wrong done by Israel and they are very wrong, but that solves nothing as stated seeking to blame, when as stated you need to take a leaf out of the Mandela book, it is called reconciliation. Many people thought Northern Ireland could not be reconciled, they were wrong. Not many people thought Apartheid South Africa could be reconciled, they were wrong also and nobody thought Japan or Germany could be reconciled after WW2, they were wrong also. You cannot say it can;t be reconciled until you at least try and that means both sides willing to do so.

It is nothing like Apartheid as seen, otherwise there would systematic segregation throughout Israel on everything, that is not the case at all.


And nothing in regards to the point on going to Mandela's funeral, or do you just use these threads as a propaganda platform?

What do you think Gaza is? Systematic segregation of the worst kind.

Really I never knew things were quite that bad under Hamas, I know they have an appalling human rights record, and I know they treat Christians appallingly but now segregation, it just gets worse.

That bad under Israel, who will not let them into the rest of Palestine and keep them locked up in a virtual large concentration camp, regardless of the fact they govern themselves inside it. The have the utmost difficulty getting in and out and Israel enters and does what it likes and it's embargo stops essentials getting to them.

OMG, that has to be the poorest accusation I have seen to date, and of course as seen earlier Hamas officials were happy to want to see and hope innocent civilian die in a failed Bomb on a bus or to wipe them off the face of the earth.
Again with your arguments there will always be a counter to who does right or wrong and nobody wins, it is an endless self defeating argument, which you fail to understand.

You fail to understand what Mandela did was great and there is the lesson to be learnt in how to resolve this crisis in the Middle east

None so blind.

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:Irn has already said.  

Your view on what to call the Bedouin situation?  

No he has not he said he will answer when he comes back, what has your question to do with the thread on him attending the funeral?

No Didge, I did not say that I would answer when I came back and I don't see why I should having already given my views on his non attendance.

As for the Israeli's saying they have shelved their relocation plans I would take that with a pinch of salt because they have form, serious form, for saying one thing and doing another.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

No he has not he said he will answer when he comes back, what has your question to do with the thread on him attending the funeral?

No Didge, I did not say that I would answer when I came back and I don't see why I should having already given my views on his non attendance.

As for the Israeli's saying they have shelved their relocation plans I would take that with a pinch of salt because they have form, serious form, for saying one thing and doing another.

Hi Irn

Well as you have offered nothing in regards to why you think it is wrong for his non-attendance even though you claim you have and after reading back you have not, I fail to see what this thread was about. Was it about what you claim it was meant to be or some poor excuse as Israel bashing?

Yes lets all talk about Israel again and forget that by pointing the blame all the time you achieve zero, because I could start to go on about forced segregation within Gaza of Schools or the persecution of Christians, oh how people are tortured into giving confessions for crimes they did not commit, I could go on constantly about the fact Hamas is nothing more than an Islamist movement fundamentally standing against everything Islam stands for, how Hamas follow neologism, an extremist view of Islam. This though does not concern you, what you are only concerned about is any wrongs done by Israel, it matters not whether peace was given and land given back you would ignore the fact you are in fact supporting a fundamentalist Islamist movement. But hey my argument is for both sides to seek reconciliation, because both sides are wrong and in the wrongs they do, nothing is ever achieved and yet you and others fuel this hate by picking sides, when there is no sides as both sides are wrong. Again you make a thread on Mandela and who did not attend his funeral, whilst no doubt not saying anything in regard to how Obama a man I respect was invited to the funeral of a great lady of this nation, one seen as one of 2 pople the American people find great, Margaret Thatcher and Churchill. Now lets be honest here you would have not even started a thread on a topic and would give every excuse under the sun to say Obama should not attend even though both nations have great relationships but would claims wrongs she had done. Yet flip the coin and we have Israel a nation you chose to dislike, you will post anything if it means placing them as wrong, yet two great people died, and in both people stayed away from the event, I give no excuse why one would not attend, but you would with Obama, when all that matters would be to respect great people. I said and state again it was folly for him not to go, it was down to peer pressure and he had no balls, but what you failed to understand about Mandela, is that his legacy was on reconciliation, of which is the only way forward, but Sassy and yourself are blinded and never see the picture from both sides, because if you did you would agree that both need to recognise the wrongs and move forward together, you both don;t, you both just cast blame and that achieves zero

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

No Didge, I did not say that I would answer when I came back and I don't see why I should having already given my views on his non attendance.

As for the Israeli's saying they have shelved their relocation plans I would take that with a pinch of salt because they have form, serious form, for saying one thing and doing another.

Hi Irn

Well as you have offered nothing in regards to why you think it is wrong for his non-attendance even though you claim you have and after reading back you have not, I fail to see what this thread was about. Was it about what you claim it was meant to be or some poor excuse as Israel bashing?

Yes lets all talk about Israel again and forget that by pointing the blame all the time you achieve zero, because I could start to go on about forced segregation within Gaza of Schools or the persecution of Christians, oh how people are tortured into giving confessions for crimes they did not commit, I could go on constantly about the fact Hamas is nothing more than an Islamist movement fundamentally standing against everything Islam stands for, how Hamas follow neologism, an extremist view of Islam. This though does not concern you, what you are only concerned about is any wrongs done by Israel, it matters not whether peace was given and land given back you would ignore the fact you are in fact supporting a fundamentalist Islamist movement. But hey my argument is for both sides to seek reconciliation, because both sides are wrong and in the wrongs they do, nothing is ever achieved and yet you and others fuel this hate by picking sides, when there is no sides as both sides are wrong. Again you make a thread on Mandela and who did not attend his funeral, whilst no doubt not saying anything in regard to how Obama a man I respect was invited to the funeral of a great lady of this nation, one seen as one of 2 pople the American people find great, Margaret Thatcher and Churchill. Now lets be honest here you would have not even started a thread on a topic and would give every excuse under the sun to say Obama should not attend even though both nations have great relationships but would claims wrongs she had done. Yet flip the coin and we have Israel a nation you chose to dislike, you will post anything if it means placing them as wrong, yet two great people died, and in both people stayed away from the event, I give no excuse why one would not attend, but you would with Obama, when all that matters would be to respect great people. I said and state again it was folly for him not to go, it was down to peer pressure and he had no balls, but what you failed to understand about Mandela, is that his legacy was on reconciliation, of which is the only way forward, but Sassy and yourself are blinded and never see the picture from both sides, because if you did you would agree that     both need to recognise the wrongs and move forward together, you both don;t, you both just cast blame and that achieves zero

I certainly did make my views known when I said....

Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

That's my reason and you can take it or leave it.

And you are just making things up now in forming my opinions for me when you do not know what I would do. If Obama refused to attend the funeral of Margaret Thatcher I most certainly would be critical of him for doing so. He represents the USA and of course Obama is nothing like the prime minister of Israel who says one thing and then something different happens just like it probably will with the relocation of certain groups of people within Israel itself. You can't trust him on his statement that the process has been shelved.

I condemn all violence wherever it occurs but the path towards peace and reconciliation can never be achieved until Israel stops bulldozing into the occupied territories and displacing people who have lived there most of their lives effectively placing them on virtual reservations that they can control even down to the degree of their water and electricity supply. A commitment to stop the process of building new settlements would be a good start.

Update on the Bedouin relocation plan...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/prawer-plan-moves-ahead-despite-pms-freeze-order/

Say one thing do something else. Always the same

Prawer Plan, canceled by PM last week due to stiff opposition from both left and right, makes mysterious reappearance in Knesset committee


OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lying Bastards!

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Irn

Well as you have offered nothing in regards to why you think it is wrong for his non-attendance even though you claim you have and after reading back you have not, I fail to see what this thread was about. Was it about what you claim it was meant to be or some poor excuse as Israel bashing?

Yes lets all talk about Israel again and forget that by pointing the blame all the time you achieve zero, because I could start to go on about forced segregation within Gaza of Schools or the persecution of Christians, oh how people are tortured into giving confessions for crimes they did not commit, I could go on constantly about the fact Hamas is nothing more than an Islamist movement fundamentally standing against everything Islam stands for, how Hamas follow neologism, an extremist view of Islam. This though does not concern you, what you are only concerned about is any wrongs done by Israel, it matters not whether peace was given and land given back you would ignore the fact you are in fact supporting a fundamentalist Islamist movement. But hey my argument is for both sides to seek reconciliation, because both sides are wrong and in the wrongs they do, nothing is ever achieved and yet you and others fuel this hate by picking sides, when there is no sides as both sides are wrong. Again you make a thread on Mandela and who did not attend his funeral, whilst no doubt not saying anything in regard to how Obama a man I respect was invited to the funeral of a great lady of this nation, one seen as one of 2 pople the American people find great, Margaret Thatcher and Churchill. Now lets be honest here you would have not even started a thread on a topic and would give every excuse under the sun to say Obama should not attend even though both nations have great relationships but would claims wrongs she had done. Yet flip the coin and we have Israel a nation you chose to dislike, you will post anything if it means placing them as wrong, yet two great people died, and in both people stayed away from the event, I give no excuse why one would not attend, but you would with Obama, when all that matters would be to respect great people. I said and state again it was folly for him not to go, it was down to peer pressure and he had no balls, but what you failed to understand about Mandela, is that his legacy was on reconciliation, of which is the only way forward, but Sassy and yourself are blinded and never see the picture from both sides, because if you did you would agree that     both need to recognise the wrongs and move forward together, you both don;t, you both just cast blame and that achieves zero

I certainly did make my views known when I said....

Yes, many countries stood by whilst the apartheid regime was in operation but most sent their head of state to Mandela's funeral recognising the legacy he left. Israel snubbed it,,,,,,,,shameful.

That's my reason and you can take it or leave it.

And you are just making things up now in forming my opinions for me when you do not know what I would do. If Obama refused to attend the funeral of Margaret Thatcher I most certainly would be critical of him for doing so. He represents the USA and of course Obama is nothing like the prime minister of Israel who says one thing and then something different happens just like it probably will with the relocation of certain groups of people within Israel itself. You can't trust him on his statement that the process has been shelved.

I condemn all violence wherever it occurs but the path towards peace and reconciliation can never be achieved until Israel stops bulldozing into the occupied territories and displacing people who have lived there most of their lives effectively placing them on virtual reservations that they can control even down to the degree of their water and electricity supply. A commitment to stop the process of building new settlements would be a good start.

That is not a reason of which I asked for dear Irn why you think it is shameful, stop telling porkies, you only said it was wrong.
I remember different in regards to Obama, so thanks for proving my point and thanks most of all for proving my point in regards to Israel as those famous words ring out!
Until.
Blame seeking, nothing more!
That is not reconciliation.[/quote]

Nothing about their change of mind about the Bedouin?

How dare you say Irn is lying?