Israel and Apartheid

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Mira Bar Hillel

Friday 13 December 2013


The lame excuses made up by Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to go to Nelson Mandela’s memorial on Tuesday have raised eyebrows and wry smiles all over the world. Having insisted on a £150,000 refit of the plane he and his wife took for the five-hour flight to Lady Thatcher’s funeral in London earlier this year, the trip to Johannesburg would, he claimed, be “too costly”. This from a man who spends thousands a year – from the public purse - on pistachio ice-cream and scented candles.

However, it is quite possible that Mr Netanyahu may have been less than ecstatically welcomed in the new South Africa anyway, following revelations that the country’s apartheid regime was the Israeli defense industry’s biggest customer and sponsor.

For many years it was virtually a capital offence to use the word “apartheid” as an analogy to policies of the Israeli government in the Occupied Territories. In 2007 my friend Danny Rubenstein, the venerated Arab Affairs analyst of Haaretz newspaper, was invited by the Zionist Federation of Great Britain to address an event. On his way he stopped to address a UN committee in Brussels, and used the word “apartheid” to describe Israel’s attitude towards the Palestinians.

In response, he was unceremoniously dumped by the ZFGB and left high and dry in a B&B in Golders Green on a Friday night. He was eventually rescued by the New Fund for Israel and invited to a crowded gathering in a North London Reform synagogue.

But while Rubenstein was mainly concerned to warn the audience of the dangers of Israel following in the footsteps of the Afrikaaners, his interviewer – and most of the questioners - kept harping on what was constantly, if coyly, referred to as “the A-word”.

Yet it now emerges that for decades Israel supported the “A-word” regime and its military with advanced weapon systems at a time when Western sanctions meant no one else would. According to Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, the cooperation reached its peak in the late 1980s, the twilight of the apartheid regime.

In the summer of 1988, Benn says, Israel reportedly sold South Africa 60 Kfir combat planes in a hushed-up deal worth $1.7 billion. The planes were upgraded and renamed Atlas Cheetah and Israel’s involvement was played down because the US was party to the sanctions regime, according to Haaretz.

Israel joined the international sanctions in 1987 but said it would honour existing contracts so the deal went ahead anyway. A few weeks later, the Israelis launched the first Ofek reconnaissance satellite which Benn claims could only have been developed with South African funding. And only in 1991 was the US able to force the Israeli government to stop selling SA short and midrange missiles.

Maps which were only revealed in the past few days show how the Israelis plan to create bantustans for the Nomadic Bedouin in its southern Negev region. Tens of thousands of them would be forced into ghettoes to make way for new Jewish towns and military zones. A-word, anyone?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-and-apartheid-confused-you-will-be-9001321.html

The Israeli Government has got away with too much for too long. I got a communication from some Israeli peace protesters I am in touch with about Netanyahu's excuse for not going to Nelson Mandela's memorial. They had just heard about all this.

Perhaps you didn't read the thread Didge, this thread is about Israel going against the sanctions that were imposed on selling arms to S.Africa during apartheid.

Yet it now emerges that for decades Israel supported the “A-word” regime and its military with advanced weapon systems at a time when Western sanctions meant no one else would. According to Haaretz editor Aluf Benn, the cooperation reached its peak in the late 1980s, the twilight of the apartheid regime.

In the summer of 1988, Benn says, Israel reportedly sold South Africa 60 Kfir combat planes in a hushed-up deal worth $1.7 billion. The planes were upgraded and renamed Atlas Cheetah and Israel’s involvement was played down because the US was party to the sanctions regime, according to Haaretz.

Israel joined the international sanctions in 1987 but said it would honour existing contracts so the deal went ahead anyway. A few weeks later, the Israelis launched the first Ofek reconnaissance satellite which Benn claims could only have been developed with South African funding. And only in 1991 was the US able to force the Israeli government to stop selling SA short and midrange missiles.


and the fact that they seen to have apartheid planned for the Bedouin:

Maps which were only revealed in the past few days show how the Israelis plan to create bantustans for the Nomadic Bedouin in its southern Negev region. Tens of thousands of them would be forced into ghettoes to make way for new Jewish towns and military zones.

Yes I did read the thread and you did not read my post it seems. If you keep going down the road of tit for tat on who does what wrong then you achieve nothing.

You have learnt nothing from the late great Mandela it seems

What on earth are you talking about.   BTW I think you will find, I'm sure she will correct me if I am wrong, that Veya was referring to Quill not answering the post and diverting.   What has tit for tat got to do with Israel supporting apartheid in S.Africa, which is something that has only just come to light.

Tit for tat on whether Israel or Palestine do wrongs, it is a pointless argument, so I will ask you again on two areas where things changed and how they changed.
I never even mentioned Quill but stated there is lots of silly points about posters going on from many on here.


What did Mandela do when he came out of jail.

What brought about the Good Friday agreement.

Oh and Mossad trained Mandela, so it is claimed

PhilDidge wrote:Tit for tat on whether Israel or Palestine do wrongs, it is a pointless argument, so I will ask you again on two areas where things changed and how they changed.
I never even mentioned Quill but stated there is lots of silly points about posters going on from many on here.  


What did Mandela do when he came out of jail.

What brought about the Good Friday agreement.

You replied to Veya with remarks about Palestine, which has not been mentioned on this thread.

The information about Israel selling arms to S.Africa and breaking the embargo has only just come to light and the discussion was about that. Could you possibly comment on that, rather than the diversions.

Yes and it has only come to light that Mandela was trained by Mossad and so what on both stories .
So what are you going to do live constantly in the past or think of the future by my two points?


What did Mandela do when he came out of jail.

What brought about the Good Friday agreement.

Trying to get you to stick to a thread is impossible.

BTW, Israel's selling of arms and breaking the embargo is not in doubt, that Mandela was trained by Mossad is:

The Nelson Mandela Foundation questions that assertion. “In 1962 Mr. Mandela received military training from Algerian freedom fighters in Morocco and from the Ethiopian Riot Battalion at Kolfe outside Addis Ababa, before returning to South Africa in July 1962,” the organization said in a statement. “In 2009 the Nelson Mandela Foundation’s senior researcher travelled to Ethiopia and interviewed the surviving men who assisted in Mandela’s training — no evidence emerged of an Israeli connection.”

It is possible, however, that the young Mandela was unaware he was being trained by the Mossad, as Israeli agents might not have identified themselves as such.

Responding to a Times of Israel query, Aderet said his article shed some light on an interesting and important document that has been hidden in Israeli archives for decades, and acknowledged that it offered only a small and partial look behind the curtains of Israel’s most secretive organization. “As long as the Mossad archives is not opened to the public — and there are currently no such plans — we will not know the truth about what happened or did not happen there.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/mandela-foundation-doubts-late-leader-received-mossad-training/

Sassy wrote:Trying to get you to stick to a thread is impossible.

I am saying you are bringing up something from the past, which if you look at many Governments in the past actually backed apartheid and all of them were wrong for doing so.
So what is your point on Israel here, on the one had it supplies arms to the Government and with the other Mossad teaches Mandela and others from South Africa in sabotage etc.

So what are we to make of that then, when clearly they are helping both sides?

As I said, their training of Mandela is in doubt, their support of apartheid isn't, and now they want to do it to the Bedouins.

OMG you have got to be kidding me.

You are now saying that Mossad was not training any freedom fights from South Africa?

Yes or No

The Mandela Foundation are saying, not me.

So what about the Bedouins?

WTF the evidence is there, you are being desperate now.

34 arrested, 15 police wounded || Police, protesters clash across Israel at rallies against Bedouin relocation
Thousands protest in Hura, Jerusalem and Haifa; rallies expected worldwide; Lieberman: Fight is over Jewish land; Netanyahu: A loud and violent minority will not prevent a better future for the majority of Negev residents.
By Shirly Seidler, Jack Khoury and Yaniv Kubovich | Nov. 30, 2013 | 10:50 PM | 44

Thousands of demonstrators gathered in the southern village of Hura, the northern city of Haifa, Jerusalem and Jaffa Saturday evening to protest a government plan to resettle some 30,000 Bedouin residents of the Negev desert. While the protests began peacefully, those in Hura and Haifa grew violent, resulting in a total of 34 arrests and 15 wounded police officers.

The demonstrations were organized as part of an International Day of Rage against the proposed Law for Arranging Bedouin Settlement in the Negev, more commonly known as the Prawer-Begin Plan.

The demonstration began peacefully at around 3 P.M., with protesters carrying signs accusing the government of turning against the people and chanting slogans demanding the elimination of "Fascism." But at around 4:30 P.M. things started riling up. The demonstrators and the large police force – which included the Yasam Special Forces unit of the Israel Police, cavalry and helicopters – began clashing. The demonstrators threw stones, while the police used stun grenades, tear gas and water hoses.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.560995

They are rounding them up and making them live in one particular place, that's apartheid.

Israel’s Begin-Prawer Plan: Global Protests Against Bedouin Ethnic Cleansing

round 40,000 Bedouins are targeted. They’re Israeli citizens. They’re considered nonpersons. They’re treated that way. They’re denied all rights.

The so-called Begin-Prawer Plan (Law for Arranging Bedouin Settlement in the Negev) is ruthlessly racist. It legitimizes ethnic cleansing. It wants Bedouin land for exclusive Jewish development.

It authorizes destroying Bedouin homes. It calls for dozens of villages to be leveled. It sanctions mass ethnic cleansing on a scale not seen since 1948. Israeli authorities are trampling on the rights of their own citizens.

According to Association for Civil Rights in Israel attorney Rawia Aburabia:

Israel’s plan “will cause the displacement and forced eviction of dozens of villages and tens of thousands of Bedouin residents, dispossessing them of their property and historical rights to their lands, destroying the social fabric of their communities, and sealing the fate of thousands of families into poverty and unemployment.”

“All of this while the government simultaneously promotes the establishment of new Jewish communities, some of which are even slated to be built on the fresh ruins of Bedouin villages.”

“Rather than displacing these communities, the government should seek a true and just solution that facilitates the inclusion of Bedouin citizens into the civil and social fabric of the Negev by recognizing the unrecognized villages and acknowledging their legal ownership rights to their lands.”

“For years, the Bedouin citizens have lived in (unrecognized) villages without basic conditions while around them more and more Jewish communities are built.”

“The government must decide whether to seek a true and just solution that facilitates the inclusion of Bedouin in the Negev as equal citizens or a belligerent plan, that only increases the alienation, hostility and poverty in these communities.”

Bimkom is an Israeli human right group. Nili Baruch is one of its urban planners. “The key to a solution to the issue of the unrecognized villages in the Negev is planning,” she said.

“A plan to formally recognize the unrecognized villages (such as the one initiated by the village residents themselves) will afford them their rights to education, health, adequate infrastructure, and sources of employment.”

“Such a process would not only be the most likely to succeed, but also the most just, coming after years of neglect of the unrecognized villages, most of which have been in existence since before the state of Israel was established.”

In September 2011, Netanyahu’s cabinet approved Begin-Prawer. It’s part of a longterm ethnic cleansing agenda. It aims to Judaize areas for exclusive Jewish development.

In June 2013, it passed its first Knesset reading. Two more are required. Final passage could come any time.

Yaron Ben Ezra heads the World Zionist Organization’s settlement division. He represents its racist policy.

He calls building new Negev Jewish communities important “to prevent the continued invasion of state lands by the Bedouin and to prevent the creation of Bedouin or Arab (territorial) contiguity.”

Israel considers Bedouins foreign invaders, squatters. They lived on their land for centuries before Jews arrived. It doesn’t matter.

Israeli revisionists rewrite history their way. They violate international laws, standards, and fundamental democratic principles doing so.

Bedouins are considered nonpersons. They live in so-called “unrecognized villages.” The term is Orwellian in its worst sense. How can real people in real communities not exist?

They’re considered internal refugees. They’re victims of Israel’s “War of Independence.” It was premeditated aggression.

Nuremberg Tribunal Chief Justice Robert Jackson called these type wars the supreme international crime against peace. Israel is flagrantly guilty multiple times. So is America.

Israel’s 1965 Planning and Construction Law delegitimized Bedouin villages. It established a regulatory framework and national plan for future development.

It zoned land for residential, agricultural and industrial use. It prohibited unlicensed construction. It banned it on agricultural land.

It stipulated where Arabs and Jews could live. South African apartheid worked the same way. Israel’s version is much worse. It reflects slow-motion genocide.

Palestinian communities got no room to expand. Residential land was rezoned for agricultural use.

Entire communities became unrecognized. Homes and other structures were declared illegal. At least 95% of them existed before the 1965 law passed. It didn’t matter. It doesn’t now.

Residential and other property on these lands are subject to demolition. Their inhabitants face displacement.

New communities are prohibited. Unrecognized ones are denied essential services.

They include clean drinking water, electricity, roads, transport, sanitation, education, healthcare, postal and telephone service, refuse removal, and more.

Under Israel’s Planning and Construction Law, they’re illegal. Denying fundamental rights spurns international laws and standards.

Israel’s Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom is violated. It authorizes overturning laws contrary to dignity, life, freedom, privacy, property, and right to leave and enter Israel. It states:

“There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person. All persons are entitled to protection” to preserve them.

“There shall be no deprivation or restriction of the liberty of a person by imprisonment, arrest, extradition or otherwise.”

Israeli Basic Law ignores equality. Rights apply solely to Jews. Bedouins targeted for displacement face imprisonment and fines for failing to leave.

Israel considers itself a Jewish state. Arabs are unwelcome, unwanted, unprotected, and unequal under state law.

Bedouins are nonpersons on their own land. They’re considered intruders. They’re denied all rights. They face constant harassment.

They face imminent loss of their homes, land, communities and freedom. Their lives are at risk when Israel targets them violently.

Negev Bedouins number up to around 100,000. They’re all targeted for displacement. About 40,000 face an imminent risk.

International human rights groups condemned Begin-Prawer as blatantly racist. Philip Luther heads Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Program. Last August he said:

“The Prawer-Begin plan is a blatant example of Israel’s discriminatory policies towards its Palestinian minority. It must be dropped immediately.”

World leaders able to act responsibly do nothing. Israel’s Bedouin displacement policy is longstanding. It followed its War of Independence.

During the early 1950s, most Negev Bedouins were relocated. A “permitted” “Siyagh” region was set aside for them. It was in Jordanian-controlled West Bank territory.

Bedouins incrementally returned to their ancestral lands. They struggled to remain there. They continue doing so.

In the late 1990s, Israel escalated efforts to remove them. Increasing numbers of demolition orders were issued.

In 2002, herbicide spraying contaminated their land. Crops were spoiled. Livestock died. Health problems surfaced.

Massive ethnic cleansing plans were drafted. They culminated in Begin-Prawer. It’s a landmark racist law.

Palestinians, human rights groups, and supportive activists struggle to prevent its enactment. Tens of thousands of Bedouin futures are at stake.

On November 29, the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign urged human rights supporters to sign it anti-Begin/Prawer letter. It said in part:

“If implemented, this plan will result in the destruction of more than 35 Palestinian towns and villages in Al-Naqab (Negev) in the south of Israel and the expulsion and confinement of up to 70,000 Palestinian Bedouins.”

“It means forced displacement of Palestinians from their homes and land, and systematic discrimination and separation.”

“The Israeli government is pushing ahead with this plan despite the Palestinian Bedouin community’s complete rejection of the plan, and condemnation from human rights groups.”

Activists declared November 30 an international “day of rage.” Protests were held in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, Gaza, Cairo, other regional cities, Berlin, London, Rome, Paris, the Hague, other European cities, Montreal, Toronto, Washington and elsewhere.

A Bedouin statement said:

“We are human beings and citizens, but the Prawer Plan treats us like animals who can be moved around from place to place with no consultation or regard for our wishes.”

“This Saturday, we will stand with our supporters from near and afar, and call for the recognition of the villages denied recognition and for a halt to this cruel plan.”

International law prohibits forced displacements. Fourth Geneva’s Article 49 states:

“Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.”

Begin-Prawer is a crime against humanity. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) says so.

Article 7 prohibits “deportation or forcible transfer of (a) population.” It forbids “the crime of apartheid.”

It bans “other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.”

It calls these practices “crimes against humanity.” Israel turns truth on its head. It claims it wants to “modernize” and “alleviate” Bedouin conditions.

Police states operate this way. They try justifying the unjustifiable. They ignore international laws and norms.

They do it unaccountably. They enforce policy through the barrel of a gun. They do it ruthlessly.

Several Palestinian youth groups issued a statement saying:

“No one will live quietly and comfortably as long as a single family in Negev faces the threat of displacement.”

“No one in this country will enjoy freedom and dignity if we Palestinians, especially in Negev, do not live in dignity on our land.”

Israel prohibits the right to demonstrate. Military Order No 101 bans gatherings of more than 10 Palestinians without IDF permission.

Violators face stiff fines and imprisonment up to 10 years. It applies to Jews supporting Arabs.

On Saturday, Israeli security forces attacked peaceful protesters. They did so violently. They fired rubber bullets and stun grenades. They used batons, tear gas and skunk water. Dozens were arrested.

Arab Knesset members Ahmed al-Tibi and Jamal Zahalka joined demonstrators. Al-Tibi said:

“The protest was meant to emphasize that Prawer will not pass on the ground, even if it does in the Knesset, because it’s essential goal is to displace the indigenous Arabs from their towns.”

“This resolution will not be respected because it is racist.”

According to Zahalka:

“The plan will lead to a confrontation between Israeli and indigenous people in the Negev, and Israel will have to deal with the repercussions.”

Palestinians endured Israeli repression since 1948. State-sponsored terror is official policy. Israel’s democracy is fake.

Peace is a non-starter. Brutal occupation is a daily reality. World leaders able to help turn a blind eye. Palestinian suffering persists.

Tens of thousands of bedouins struggle for their futures. Land they’ve lived on for centuries is up for grabs. Israel wants it exclusively for Jews.

Palestinian rights don’t matter. Israeli Arab citizens have few. Bedouins have none. It bears repeating. Police states operate this way. Israel is ruthlessly racist.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-begin-prawer-plan-global-protests-against-bedouin-ethnic-cleansing/5360068

Jesus, never know anyone so obsessed with israel whilst ignoring the fact many countries surrounding them have appalling human rights.

Again your position here Sassy never helps the situation which is why I brought you to two points you want to avoid..


Good Friday agreement and Mandela on release from jail

Still not addressing the point. The apartheid against Bedouins is happening now.

What about the constant persecution of Christians in every nation around Israel, or how in each of these countries around israel there is no religious freedom, no free speech, child brides etc.

Seriously, there are many problems within the area yet you are only obsessed with a nation which gives more democratic rights than any of its neighbours do to its citizens

What if you answered the question.

Where is the UN report on this then saying they are complicit in killing Bedouins?

Sorry I take little stock in most of your links, as this is all you seem to do is bombard the forum with articles to argue for you.

So present hard evidence from the UN.
Then I will present countless atrocities going on in the surrounding Muslim countries and then you can explain why you only ever post threads about Israel and not its neighbours?

Who mention killing Bedouins? What is being discussed is the Prawer-Begin Plan. If you want to discuss other problems, make a thread about them and stop bringing them up in this one.

You are claiming apartheid to Bedouins,when all its neighbours does not have equality to its people, seriously you really have got your morals all over the place. There is no apartheid in Israel, but the safest place to live in the whole area

The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement that wants to label Israel as an apartheid state continues to suffer major setbacks, not least of which are outright denunciations by the people who know apartheid best - black South Africans.

In an interview with news blog Democracy Broadcasting, Esther Meshoe, daughter of conservative South African parliamentarian, Dr. Kenneth Meshoe, slammed the BDS movement as nothing but false propaganda.

"The truth is there is no apartheid in Israel," said Meshoe. "My parents suffered through apartheid."

Sadly, many South Africans have been taken in by the BDS claims against Israel. Meshoe recalled the recent visit to Israel by a family friend who was shocked to find the Jewish state very different from what he was told.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=24083

We are not discussing neighbours we are discussing the plan for the Bedouins:

A United Nations committee has called for the withdrawal of the draft law that would move 30,000 Bedouin living in the Negev to permanent, existing Bedouin communities. Furthermore, the United Nations human rights chief urged Israel to reconsider a proposed law that would result in the demolition of up to 35 Bedouin villages, displacing as many as 40,000 members of these communities from their ancestral homes. “If this bill becomes law, it will accelerate the demolition of entire Bedouin communities, forcing them to give up their homes, denying them their rights to land ownership, and decimating their traditional cultural and social life in the name of development,” Ms. Pillay said. According to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, the Law for the Regulation of the Bedouin Settlement in the Negev is discriminatory and would legalize racist practices. Further critics of Prawer Plan include an independent human rights organization and legal center, Adalah Adalah which works to promote and defend the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, 1.2 million people, or 20% of the population, as well as Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The center describes the Bill - which was approved by the Israeli Knesset on 25 June 2013 with 43 votes for and 40 votes against, as discriminatory. It adds that the Bill calls for the mass expulsion of the Arab Bedouin community in the Naqab (Negev) desert in the south of Israel. If fully implemented, the Prawer-Begin Plan will result in the destruction of 35 "unrecognized"Arab Bedouin villages, the forced displacement of up to 70,000 Arab Bedouin citizens of Israel, and the dispossession of their historical lands in the Naqab. Despite the Arab Bedouin community's complete rejection of the plan and strong disapproval from the international community and human rights groups, the Prawer Plan is happening now. Adalah further elaborates that Prawer-Begin Bill is an unacceptable proposition that entrenches the state’s historic injustice against its Bedouin citizens.

The European Parliament heavily criticized the plan.[9] In January 2012 hundreds of people protested the Prawer Plan, calling for the relocation of about 30,000 Beduins to recognized villages, in front of the Beersheba courthouse.[10] In September 2013 both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel’s ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_on_the_Arrangement_of_Bedouin_Settlement_in_the_Negev

There is no Apartheid in Israel end of story, that is nonsense

So taking people's land away, making them live in one area they don't want to live in, and depriving them of the right to own land is not apartheid. You stick your head in the sand, I prefer to face fact.

No I am just bored with your constant anti Semitism to be honest, we see countless problems in the Middle east and you constantly only go on about the one nation that actually is the most democratic place top live in the area.

You always fall back on that, and my friends in the Peace Movement in Israel fall about laughing when I tell them. This is about the Israeli Government and what it is doing, not Jews. Are people who protest about what our government does Anti-English. Do grow up.

PhilDidge wrote:There is no Apartheid in Israel end of story, that is nonsense

Hi Didge are you serious?

So being forcibly removing people from their houses, giving them dirty water to drink and turning off the electricity so the babies in hospitals can die is not APARTHEID?

I think you are winding up Sassy!

He's making me doubt his intelligence and his ability to look at things going on objectively.

Sassy wrote:You always fall back on that, and my friends in the Peace Movement in Israel fall about laughing when I tell them.   This is about the Israeli Government and what it is doing, not Jews.   Are people who protest about what our government does Anti-English.   Do grow up.

Yeah I am sure they are, do you have Peter Pan also?


Again there is no apartheid in Israel

Sassy wrote:He's making me doubt his intelligence and his ability to look at things going on objectively.

Coming through you in regards to intelligence is very funny!

Irony at its best and trying to turn a friend against me also, how callus

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:There is no Apartheid in Israel end of story, that is nonsense

Hi Didge are you serious?

So being forcibly removing people from their houses, giving them dirty water to drink and turning off the electricity so the babies in hospitals can die is not APARTHEID?

I think you are winding up Sassy!

Hi Sexy

No it is not Apartheid, do you even know what Apartheid is?

Forcing people from homes is a crime, granted and very wrong, it is not Apartheid though

PhilDidge wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Hi Didge are you serious?

So being forcibly removing people from their houses, giving them dirty water to drink and turning off the electricity so the babies in hospitals can die is not APARTHEID?

I think you are winding up Sassy!

Hi Sexy

No it is not Apartheid, do you even know what Apartheid is?

Forcing people from homes is a crime, granted and very wrong, it is not Apartheid though

It is when they make the Palestinians use another form of transport to the Israelis no?

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:He's making me doubt his intelligence and his ability to look at things going on objectively.

Coming through you in regards to intelligence is very funny!

Irony at its best and trying to turn a friend against me also, how callus

Didge Sassy hasn't tried to do anything x

SEXY MAMA wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Sexy

No it is not Apartheid, do you even know what Apartheid is?

Forcing people from homes is a crime, granted and very wrong, it is not Apartheid though

It is when they make the Palestinians use another form of transport to the Israelis no?  

Do they, then why is Parliament made up of both?

Didge Gota go will b back later

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:You always fall back on that, and my friends in the Peace Movement in Israel fall about laughing when I tell them.   This is about the Israeli Government and what it is doing, not Jews.   Are people who protest about what our government does Anti-English.   Do grow up.

Yeah I am sure they are, do you have Peter Pan also?


Again there is no apartheid in Israel

I've been in correspondence with people in the Israeli Peace Movement for many years Didge, so you can just stop that because you are losing an argument.

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge Gota go will b back later

Me too love, final preparations and all that.

Sassy wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Yeah I am sure they are, do you have Peter Pan also?


Again there is no apartheid in Israel

I've been in correspondence with people in the Israeli Peace Movement for many years Didge, so you can just stop that because you are losing an argument.

Losing what argument, by claiming I lack intelligence, yes that is a counter of substance.

There is no apartheid in Israel and can understand the problem over the buses

PhilDidge wrote:WTF the evidence is there, you are being desperate now.

Afternoon Didge,

I really would like to see this irrefutable, incontrovertible evidence that Israel knowingly trained Nelson Mandela for the intention of undermining the apartheid South African government.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:WTF the evidence is there, you are being desperate now.

Afternoon Didge,

I really would like to see this irrefutable, incontrovertible evidence that Israel knowingly trained Nelson Mandela for the intention of undermining the apartheid South African government.

Afternoon Irn

It is a claim as I already stated in regard to Mandela by Mossad, I am sure you are very capable of looking this up, just as you are able to show other denying this..

Seriously though this debate about apartheid is beyond contempt in regards to Israel as it does not have a segregation within the whole nation, but on this one point of buses and the only debate here should be on whether there is any merit to the decision to segregate on the grounds of fear of terrorism. This is not Buses in Israel but buses from the West bank into Israel, so we are not even talking about all buses either.

And look what is in the news today:



Israeli police are searching for suspects after a bomb exploded on board a bus in central Israel on Sunday, just minutes after it had been evacuated.

A bomb squad officer was slightly hurt by the blast in Bat Yam, which blew out the windows of the vehicle.

The bus driver had ordered passengers off after one saw wires inside a large bag that had been left on a seat.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said a preliminary investigation suggested it had been a "terrorist attack".

The nature of the target and the type of explosive device led the authorities to determine that militants, not criminals, were behind the bombing, he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25491405

This from the same link I found appalling:



However, a spokesman for the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip, praised the bombing. "This is a brave, heroic work in response to the crimes of the occupation," Fawzi Barhoum said, referring to Israel. "Resistance continues."


Not much chance of peace if Hamas statesman are happy and praise wanting the killing of innocent civilians. Now I bet this was not one of the segregated buses.

Hm, does that mean after the bombs that have gone off here, even though some time ago, we should have separate buses for muslims and Irish?

The bomb on the bus was terrible, but I never see you say anything about the thousands of Palestinian civilians the Israeli's have killed, or condemned their houses being bulldozed and their legally owned land being confiscated so that Israel can expand illegally.

PS, you still haven't addressed the issue of the Bedouins having their land taken and being put in one area where they don't want to be, not allowed to live anywhere else. That's exactly what apartheid is.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Afternoon Didge,

I really would like to see this irrefutable, incontrovertible evidence that Israel knowingly trained Nelson Mandela for the intention of undermining the apartheid South African government.

Afternoon Irn

It is a claim as I already stated in regard to Mandela by Mossad, I am sure you are very capable of looking this up, just as you are able to show other denying this..

Seriously though this debate about apartheid is beyond contempt in regards to Israel as it does not have a segregation within the whole nation, but on this one point of buses and the only debate here should be on whether there is any merit to the decision to segregate on the grounds of fear of terrorism. This is not Buses in Israel but buses from the West bank into Israel, so we are not even talking about all buses either.

Evening Didge.

Indeed I am capable of looking up for the information and it just doesn't exist. And these claims are coming out just after Mandela died probably as a reason to divert attention away from Israel's snub to South Africa in not sending a delegation to Mandela's funeral.
And all this stuff is from a country that has no problem sticking false British passports on its trained assasins sent out to murder people so I wouldn't believe anything that they come out with without first checking on their reliability.
When the Israeli government starts forcing certain groups of people from their land and their homes to go and live in areas chosen for them so as to make room for a different group of people of their choosing then that is setting them apart and is therefore a form of apartheid in every sense of the word.
But the main theme of this thread is the Israel support for the South African apartheid government which must be condemned at every opportunity and must surely be seen as a snub to South Africa and the legacy left by Nelson Mandela.
I just can't see it any other way.

Sassy wrote:Hm, does that mean after the bombs that have gone off here, even though some time ago, we should have separate buses for muslims and Irish?

The bomb on the bus was terrible, but I never see you say anything about the thousands of Palestinian civilians the Israeli's have killed, or condemned their houses being bulldozed and their legally owned land being confiscated so that Israel can expand illegally.

PS, you still haven't addressed the issue of the Bedouins having their land taken and being put in one area where they don't want to be, not allowed to live anywhere else.   That's exactly what apartheid is.

Does it mean we should or does it mean your argument was shattered before you even claimed one?
Your argument of apartheid was absurd, the merits of a decision to decide on the safety of people on bus rides from outside Israel was the real debate of which you try in the most poorest manner to make comparisons to something that does not even match.

I say plenty in regards to killing, because all killing is wrong, even in war, as only many suffer to achieve the ambitions of others, and I have stated many times any wrongs done to Palestine are also a crime, but what I do not wish is to be blinded but such fake moral bullshit over the fact we have a nation surrounded by enemies, one that has fought for its very existence since the day it born. Wrongs are done from both sides, hence the relevance of my point to you which clearly went above your pay grade, is that such illogical rhetoric serves nobody but those who wish to continue a continuation of problems and hostilities. This is why you have learnt nothing from the Good Friday agreement and why you have learnt nothing of the legacy of Mandela when freed, they sought to look past wrongs done by both sides and seek a way forward together. You look only to blame, and that is your first mistake, because all that does is hinder any chance of moving forward.

What is needed for the future is to look past what was done wrong, but to look at what it is to make things right

Could you explain that, because it doesn't make sense. And you still haven't addressed the issue of the Bedouins having the land taken away and sent to an area they do not want to go to, not allowed to live anywhere else - apartheid, going on now.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Afternoon Irn

It is a claim as I already stated in regard to Mandela by Mossad, I am sure you are very capable of looking this up, just as you are able to show other denying this..

Seriously though this debate about apartheid is beyond contempt in regards to Israel as it does not have a segregation within the whole nation, but on this one point of buses and the only debate here should be on whether there is any merit to the decision to segregate on the grounds of fear of terrorism. This is not Buses in Israel but buses from the West bank into Israel, so we are not even talking about all buses either.

Evening Didge.

Indeed I am capable of looking up for the information and it just doesn't exist. And these claims are coming out just after Mandela died probably as a reason to divert attention away from Israel's snub to South Africa in not sending a delegation to Mandela's funeral.
And all this stuff is from a country that has no problem sticking false British passports on its trained assasins sent out to murder people so I wouldn't believe anything that they come out with without first checking on their reliability.
When the Israeli government starts forcing certain groups of people from their land and their homes to go and live in areas chosen for them so as to make room for a different group of people of their choosing then that is setting them apart and is therefore a form of apartheid in every sense of the word.
But the main theme of this thread is the Israel support for the South African apartheid government which must be condemned at every opportunity and must surely be seen as a snub to South Africa and the legacy left by Nelson Mandela.
I just can't see it any other way.

Oh the evidence exist Irn, it is more about whether you truly believe the evidence is real, that should have been your question, not that you choose to believe it does not exist. Lets face some realities here, many nations did little whilst apartheid carried on under both Labour and Conservative Governments and how even America had dubbed the organisation he served as terrorist, all were very much complicit, and you are telling you have the ability to just bemoan Israel over this? Seriously, is that your argument? Again your understanding is based solely upon blame of Israel, you seek no learning of what happens on both sides, you seek only to see what Israel does wrong and that is not even close to being logical. Yes Israel has done many wrongs, as has done Palestine, but seeking an argument over who has done what achieves what exactly?
Nothing.
If your only intention or Sassy's was to seek people to condemn Israel for this action, then your whole concept of what is right, is thus clearly wrong, you seek only to judge one for what it does and yet choose to ignore what others do to them, it is not only a failed concept, but a failed argument. Both do wrongs and on both sides both wish to continue the hostilities and do you really think Sassy's beliefs and views help the situation also.? If you do, you are sadly wrong, as hope and peace come from not casting blame, but putting aside any difference you have, just like we have, even when we do not agree, shows how people can build bridges where many people thought was impossible. That is how you solve a problem, as we have done and Sassy needs to learn from that, her arguments are like those who are Islamophobes, they seek to whip people up with anger, using hate and I find that very illogical. You only find peace when you realise when both sides themselves recognise the futility of what they do and realise they were both wrong

Sassy wrote:Could you explain that, because it doesn't make sense.   And you still haven't addressed the issue of the Bedouins having the land taken away and sent to an area they do not want to go to, not allowed to live anywhere else - apartheid, going on now.

I explained it with clarity, sadly you never opened your ears, whilst at the same time closed your eyes