Another reason not to vote UKIP

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:51 am

Is this bloke for real?

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/7106324?utm_hp_ref=tw

Sick doesn't begin to describe this.

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:45 pm

Still waiting for you to tell us which parts of UKIP policies you don't agree with and Why..!?

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

If You can't disagree with any then I'll presume you agree with them all...

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:49 pm

Just started work Tom.
when I get a chance will post my reply.

by nicko Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:08 pm

you mean you are on here when you should be working? good job milliband don't know.

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Still waiting for you to tell us which parts of UKIP policies you don't agree with and Why..!?

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

If You can't disagree with any then I'll presume you agree with them all...

Many of them because many are based on claims to money from leaving the EU, which they cannot or anyone else predict how much this will cost or save the UK, because it is unknown territory, where we haveno idea how the EU will react or how much we have to pay to trade for example. Let alone the fact how UKIP are going to commit to any costs when they are reliant on leaving the EU and the general public vote to stay in.
Maybe you can explain what happens if the public votes to stay in.
Maybe you can also guarantee it will not cost us more money and a loss in jobs and business also from leaving the EU?

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:56 pm

If and when there is a referendum, and the British public vote overwhelmingly to stay in, UKIP be finished, just like the BNP are now.

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:34 pm

The most glaringly obvious fault with it is that if we leave the EU, and what will happen to ex-pats living in the EU. I assume UKIP have thought of that.
EVERYONE would need health insurance, those working in the EU would need a points based work permit or risk deportation, and those retired would require residency permits and proof of income.

A reciprocal arrangement would be required.

"– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance".

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:46 pm

Nothing will happen to ex pats who are wealthy and bring money to their chosen place, don't take local jobs, actually create them by spending money, and usually have extensive health cover so don't drain local health care budgets.

They also don't usually have school age children costing their host country £6000 a year each.

I'm sure they will still be most welcome wherever they are or could easily find somewhere else warm, all too ready to welcome them in!

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Nothing will happen to ex pats who are wealthy and bring money to their chosen place, don't take local jobs, actually create them by spending money, and usually have extensive health cover so don't drain local health care budgets.

They also don't usually have school age children costing their host country £6000 a year each.

I'm sure they will still be most welcome wherever they are or could easily find somewhere else warm, all too ready to welcome them in!

So you basically cannot give any reassurances here

You certainly are not going to persuade people like that to Vote UKIP

Again you need to provide the contingencies here:

Many of them because many are based on claims to money from leaving the EU, which they cannot or anyone else predict how much this will cost or save the UK, because it is unknown territory, where we haveno idea how the EU will react or how much we have to pay to trade for example. Let alone the fact how UKIP are going to commit to any costs when they are reliant on leaving the EU and the general public vote to stay in.
Maybe you can explain what happens if the public votes to stay in.
Maybe you can also guarantee it will not cost us more money and a loss in jobs and business also from leaving the EU?

Plus Andy's points as well need to be answered which of course you cannot because at present nobody knows because it is a lottery if the Uk left the EU.

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:52 pm

Also here is a good idea of costs with education:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/sep/11/education-compared-oecd-country-pisa

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:57 pm

We don't know how the EU will react?

But surely it is a completely sane and reasonable democratic organisation isn't it...!?

So it would respect our decision to leave and not act in a petulant way that would be trying to cause us problems in any way!

Trade will continue.

We will regain our democracy and powers to control our own laws, rules and regulations and the right to self determination, and it will save us billions in the mix, money that we can then use directly in our own best interests.

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:We don't know how the EU will react?

But surely it is a completely sane and reasonable democratic organisation isn't it...!?

So it would respect our decision to leave and not act in a petulant way that would be trying to cause us problems in any way!

Trade will continue.

We will regain our democracy and powers to control our own laws, rules and regulations and the right to self determination, and it will save us billions in the mix, money that we can then use directly in our own best interests.

That is just guessing and agian not reassuring.
Trade may cost far more for the Uk, being as there is two major exporters to Britain but again many people are employed in the Uk that trade with the EU around 3 million people top estimate, which is quite alot of peoples lives to play with. You again have to factor that companies whilst nothing has been resolved or even fear trade will not be as viable will look to set up elsewhere, even more so if they are foreign owned companies.
You still have no said how UKIP ill find their economy if the people decide to vote to stay in.

So you really cannot give any guarantee's off this manifesto can you on many points raised here/

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:14 pm

UKIP want to leave the EU and European FREE TRADE Associaciation.
That means duty tariffs on all goods into the UK - reciprocated with goods leaving the UK. Everything WILL cost more - imports will be taxed - exports sales will plummet.
The clue is in the FREE TRADE part. Lose that and trading will come at a cost. 1,000,000 more unemployed?
A risk worth taking?

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:17 pm

Handy Andy wrote:UKIP want to leave the EU and European FREE TRADE Associaciation.
That means duty tariffs on all goods into the UK - reciprocated with goods leaving the UK. Everything WILL cost more - imports will be taxed - exports sales will plummet.
The clue is in the FREE TRADE part. Lose that and trading will come at a cost. 1,000,000 more unemployed?
A risk worth taking?

He also forgets that nations like Norway have to pay an amount to trade into the EU budget, who are not in the EU and they have no say. It works out still to about 4-5 billion for the Uk based off what Norway pays, let alone Norway has to abide by trading laws also. It would seem we would leave by UKIPs way and be fucked.
So bang goes most of the UKIP manifesto, as we are not going to geta deal like Switzerland, of which they pay also, which the EU regrets making which is telling it will not happen again

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:19 pm

Trade will continue.

That is a fact!

The jobs that you say are reliant on trade will continue too.

That is a non argument.

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Trade will continue.

That is a fact!

The jobs that you say are reliant on trade will continue too.

That is a non argument.

Of course trade will continue whilst the Uk continues to pay for it, that is not going to change.

Again what manifesto contingencies does UKIP have for where the UK votes to stay in?

They are going to look very stupid if they do not have any.

by Guest Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:26 pm

Anyway Andy, I shall leave Tommy to you, as I doubt you are going to get any valid answers here.

So good luck trying.

by Andy Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:33 pm

We both have our fixed ideas and ideology.
I shan't change - nor will Tommy. Will will have to agree to disagree , but I shall try and dig some more dirt on Nigel and UKIP, Lord knows there is plenty out there on the interweb.

Sees you in a while, Nemesis - have a good evening Tom, good debating politely with you both.

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:37 pm

The British people have only ever voted for a simple trade arrangement.

Not for The give away of our national sovereignty or our right to self government through our national parliament, or for 80% of our laws, rules and regulations to be dictated to us by Brussels, as is the current situation after Tory and labour have both treacherously signed all this away against our wishes, and resulting in a huge annual financial cost too.

We don't have to be like Norway or Switzerland, we are one of The largest economies in the world and head of The commonwealth, with the power and influence to stand on our own.

by Tommy Monk Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:25 pm

When did the British people agree to this...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHp6wCc-TSc

Not only is she admitting the current real lack of democratic power that our national parliament has as a result of Tory and labour signing it away without the consent of The British people and without any authority to do so, also think about the fact that these EU 'commissioners' who are now in control of EU policy and directives, have also never been elected by anyone, they have never been voted for or given any public consent to hold any sort of power or control, they are 'appointed' by other unelected 'officials'!!!

It is amazing to hear so many otherwise reasonable and sensible people here in UK, who will totally support the rights of others to have self rule and self determination through their own independent democratic parliaments, but also support the give away of OUR OWN rights to self govt and control of our country through our own independent democratic parliament.

by Eilzel Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:15 am

Being head of the commonwealth doesn't really mean anything tommy. Fact is as Britain's economy is pretty stable right now but not growing fast enough we as a nation will be over taken by the bigger nations (Indonesia, Brazil etc) in due course. The world economy and resources will be dominated by large nations and trading blocs. In South East Asia ASEAN is gradually shaping itself to be more like the EU- it would be suicidal to pull out of our own bloc now with the future looking the way it does, especially when as mentioned above we'd still have to pay and abide by EU HR standards to trade in any case.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:22 am

Tommy Monk wrote:The British people have only ever voted for a simple trade arrangement.

Not for The give away of our national sovereignty or our right to self government through our national parliament, or for 80% of our laws, rules and regulations to be dictated to us by Brussels, as is the current situation after Tory and labour have both treacherously signed all this away against our wishes, and resulting in a huge annual financial cost too.

We don't have to be like Norway or Switzerland, we are one of The largest economies in the world and head of The commonwealth, with the power and influence to stand on our own.

You are still not understanding that nations not in the EU like Norway and Switzerland have to pay into the EU budget, which there is no way a confederation of EU nations is going to give the UK a free pass to do so. The UK will have to also pay to do the same and they will still have to abide by many EU laws, of which both of these nations do so already. To think Britain can go alone fails to understand this and you are failing to understand the Uk will have no choice on this and it is here that the UK has little leverage to barter on this. How do you think the EU is going to bow down to Britain on this? They are not going to held to ransom on this where again they have the deciding factor in this because what nations back the UK?

You again have still not provided any contingency for how this is going to work, all you have done is said Britain will be able to do so without offering any viable plan. No EU country is going to agree to this when they all pay, it is as simple as that where again they hold the power over this because they are a confederation of nations. You seem to think Britain can hold the EU to ransom, where they have the power in their confederation which if it came to a show down, Britain has far more to lose, which could bring about a recession the likes never seen before. It is much to gamble with and one that is better done at the negotiation table. Even if the Tories do bring the UK out of the EU, they will still make concessions with the EU and still pay to use the service, which is why you are not looking at this with any forward thinking. The effect on the ex-pats is also interesting especially those who are not working retired with the strain they place on economies being as they pay no taxes, but certainly use the health systems. They would lose their rights, where again most of the UK's immigrants are working. So again we stand to have an influx of ex-pats return if these citizens lose their rights in these nations, mainly many again retired. How much further strain would that place on the UK economy?

You still have not once either shown any contingency for if the public do not vote to leave where many of your manifesto pledges are built around leaving the EU.

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:23 pm

We don't have to be like Norway or Switzerland.

And we don't have to be run by other countries just to trade with some of them.

Most of our trade is outside the EU.

And besides that, the EU countries who do trade with us will still want to sell us their cars and wine.

People want their country back and control over our laws, rules and regulations.

People don't want open door immigration to half a billion people across 27 other countries.

The only way to get this is to leave the EU.

Trade will continue and You are not winning with your scaremongering bullshit.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:41 pm

Again you are just repeating yourself and not explaining how it will be accomplished that Britain on its own can trade without paying.
You think multiple nations are just going to bow down tot he UK is naive. Most of our trade is in the EU near 50% which again employs near 3 million people. You have to explain how one nation is going to make the EU which is far superior to the Uk economy back down.

It just aint going to happen and hence why even if they left they lose out on any negotiation and will have to abide by laws and having to pay and no doubt be in a worse position.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:52 pm

We are the 5th largest economy in the world, And if we left the EU We would take up our seat at the world trade organisation, which on its own would mean the EU would have to trade with us, but it is also written into EU rules that they will trade.

It is you who are repeating yourself and still banging on about trade, trying to scaremonger, when it is all waffle, trade will continue.

But more importantly, our democracy has been stolen and handed away to The EU by successive Tory and labour stooges, with 80% of OUR laws dictated to us by unelected EU 'commissioners' and bureaucrats.

And an open door to half a billion people, that is also unacceptable but a fundamental part of EU membership.

Plus it costs us billions every year to be told what to do.

The British people have never agreed to this and are not happy about it.

We want our country, democracy, right to self govt and self rule, and control over our borders back.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:59 pm

Well this debate is over.

Not once have you explained how the Uk is going to make the EU bow to its wishes.

You clearly do not understand the ramifications of this and to be honest you are again just repeating yourself.

You clearly are not the best person to convince others in this and if anything you would make people more convinced to stay being again you cannot answer some very simple questions.

You keep diverging the points and talking about other things you have not even been asked about.

Not once have you even provided a contingency for if the Uk votes to stay in.

Shame really as this could have been interesting but as I am others already understand the fact is and easily proven by your answers UKIP really have no answers here or you would have provided them.

At each turn you have failed to do so.,

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:54 pm

TRADE WILL CONTINUE SO YOUR ARGUMENT ON TRADE HAS BEEN DEALT WITH!

I don't know how many times I have to tell you!!!

Try addressing the other more important points I have raised on democracy, sovereignty and control over our country, laws, rules, regulations, borders etc!?

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:03 pm

There is no other points to address until you actually answer the points raised to you.

The fact is you cannot.

For one nobody can predict what will happen it is a lottery.

Nobody knows how the EU will act, again it is a lottery.

Nobody knows what buisnesses is the Uk will do, again it is unpredictable

Most of all nobody can say whether people will vote to stay in or not and not once have you provided how then the manifesto will work if the public decide to stay.

Hence why all can see you never would have been able to answer these points, but it was very funny watching you try lol

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:15 pm

Nemesis wrote:Well this debate is over.

Not once have you explained how the Uk is going to make the EU bow to its wishes.

You clearly do not understand the ramifications of this and to be honest you are again just repeating yourself.

You clearly are not the best person to convince others in this and if anything you would make people more convinced to stay being again you cannot answer some very simple questions.

You keep diverging the points and talking about other things you have not even been asked about.

Not once have you even provided a contingency for if the Uk votes to stay in.

Shame really as this could have been interesting but as I am others already understand the fact is and easily proven by your answers UKIP really have no answers here or you would have provided them.

At each turn you have failed to do so.,

Poor

old

Didge.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:17 pm

Shady wrote:
Nemesis wrote:Well this debate is over.

Not once have you explained how the Uk is going to make the EU bow to its wishes.

You clearly do not understand the ramifications of this and to be honest you are again just repeating yourself.

You clearly are not the best person to convince others in this and if anything you would make people more convinced to stay being again you cannot answer some very simple questions.

You keep diverging the points and talking about other things you have not even been asked about.

Not once have you even provided a contingency for if the Uk votes to stay in.

Shame really as this could have been interesting but as I am others already understand the fact is and easily proven by your answers UKIP really have no answers here or you would have provided them.

At each turn you have failed to do so.,

Poor

old

Didge.

Someone

Seems

Very

Obsessed

Maybe

They

are

on

day

release.

and

back

to

the

debate

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:18 pm

You are just repeating yourself again.

EU rules dictate that they will have to continue to trade with us.

Plus we will retake our seat on The WTO which also means the EU will have to continue to trade with us.

PLus it is in the EU's interests to continue to trade with us as they like selling us their stuff and they need the money.

Other countries trade with the EU and are not forced to be part of any political union or to Have 80% of their laws, rules and regulations dictated to them.

The British people have never given their consent to this current EU political construct.

Businesses will be free from the burden of EU over regulation and unnecessary And expensive bureaucracy so will directly benefit there.

PLus it will save our country billions in contributions to The EU, money that we would be better off using here directly.

You have nothing to answer my points so you just keep scaremongering with your false claims about trade.

What about the give away of our democracy and open door to half a billion people?

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You are just repeating yourself again.

EU rules dictate that they will have to continue to trade with us.

Plus we will retake our seat on The WTO which also means the EU will have to continue to trade with us.

PLus it is in the EU's interests to continue to trade with us as they like selling us their stuff and they need the money.

Other countries trade with the EU and are not forced to be part of any political union or to Have 80% of their laws, rules and regulations dictated to them.

The British people have never given their consent to this current EU political construct.

Businesses will be free from the burden of EU over regulation and unnecessary And expensive bureaucracy so will directly benefit there.

PLus it will save our country billions in contributions to The EU, money that we would be better off using here directly.

You have nothing to answer my points so you just keep scaremongering with your false claims about trade.

What about the give away of our democracy and open door to half a billion people?

Good afternoon Tommy.

It's been shown by many a political commentator,including those on the left & right that leaving the EU will not be a bad thing for the UK economy.

No doubt you have read those articles & I suspect the site idiot has as well but he's just stuck in his contradiction mantra.Be patient with him.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:25 pm

Getting funnier by the minute, but someone is beginning to learn by actions, so that is a good start on their posting. .

That has still not addressed either question.
Again you are just making unfounded claims of which nobody can answer in regards to how the EU will act.

I am not interested on what you think in regards to the British people, what I am interested in is UKIP manifesto in regards to leaving the EU or if the people vote to stay in.
Is that now clear for you Tommy?

Nnot once have you answered what contingency UKIP have if people do not vote to leave and this has to be about the tenth time asking.

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:28 pm

Hello shady, yes I have read many things that confirm that.

Also the report that claims 3 million jobs are dependent on EU membership also admits that trade will continue and the jobs will continue too!

lol!

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Hello shady, yes I have read many things that confirm that.

Also the report that claims 3 million jobs are dependent on EU membership also admits that trade will continue and the jobs will continue too!

It also goes on about having to continue to pay too.

Razz

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Hello shady, yes I have read many things that confirm that.

Also the report that claims 3 million jobs are dependent on EU membership also admits that trade will continue and the jobs will continue too!

The next things they'll have us believing in,is that the Earth is flat,global warming is real & islam is the religion of peace.

Oh I do love these deniers.......they're so 20th century.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:36 pm

Shady wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Hello shady, yes I have read many things that confirm that.

Also the report that claims 3 million jobs are dependent on EU membership also admits that trade will continue and the jobs will continue too!

The next things they'll have us believing in,is that the Earth is flat,global warming is real & islam is the religion of peace.

Oh I do love these deniers.......they're so 20th century.

Another reason not to vote UKIP Romanians

Another reason not to vote UKIP Bulgarians

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:41 pm

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:43 pm

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:46 pm

Not necessarily dodge...!

We could have the best of both worlds.

Britain could maintain the free trade agreements with existing EU trading partners, and strike a range of new agreements with major countries including China and India. Stronger trade outside Europe would compensate for any slight reduction in trade between the UK and EU.

Britain's EU budget bill would be reduced to almost nothing, while MPs would successfully cut more than half of the red tape imposed by the EU on business.

In this scenario, the economic benefit to Britain would be £16.1bn - or 1.1pc of GDP.

The EU needs our trade so will continue to trade with us, simple as that!

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:46 pm

Nemesis wrote:Getting funnier by the minute, but someone is beginning to learn by actions, so that is a good start on their posting. .

That has still not addressed either question.
Again you are just making unfounded claims of which nobody can answer in regards to how the EU will act.

I am not interested on what you think in regards to the British people, what I am interested in is UKIP manifesto in regards to leaving the EU or if the people vote to stay in.
Is that now clear for you Tommy?

Nnot once have you answered what contingency UKIP have if people do not vote to leave and this has to be about the tenth time asking.

Try again.

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:55 pm

The people want out, that is pretty clear.

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:00 pm

Thanks Tommy

I think you just made it clear how badly this is a lottery of where nobody is going to know until it does happen.

I reckon people will vote to stay in as this gets looked at in further detail the closer it comes to the referendum, that is if the Tories get back in, then people will get very worried. I hope things get negotiated for a better deal as leaving is going to get very messy.

If labour get back in, then you can kiss your referendum goodbye Tommy.

UKIP's only hope is to gain enough seats to make a difference as part of a Coalition.

They stand at present to having 6 seats.

That is not enough.

So I guess after asking countless times you are not going to answer the questions.

So I shall leave it at that.

Ta

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:04 pm

Nemesis wrote:Thanks Tommy

I think you just made it clear how badly this is a lottery of where nobody is going to know until it does happen.

I reckon people will vote to stay in as this gets looked at in further detail the closer it comes to the referendum, that is if the Tories get back in, then people will get very worried. I hope things get negotiated for a better deal as leaving is going to get very messy.

If labour get back in, then you can kiss your referendum goodbye Tommy.

UKIP's only hope is to gain enough seats to make a difference as part of a Coalition.

They stand at present to having 6 seats.

That is not enough.

So I guess after asking countless times you are not going to answer the questions.

So I shall leave it at that.

Ta

Have you ever noticed that as soon as you go off line,loads of posters come online?

Hurry up.

by Tommy Monk Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:19 pm

Laters Didge you bell end!!!

lol!

by Guest Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:20 pm

Shady wrote:
Nemesis wrote:Thanks Tommy

I think you just made it clear how badly this is a lottery of where nobody is going to know until it does happen.

I reckon people will vote to stay in as this gets looked at in further detail the closer it comes to the referendum, that is if the Tories get back in, then people will get very worried. I hope things get negotiated for a better deal as leaving is going to get very messy.

If labour get back in, then you can kiss your referendum goodbye Tommy.

UKIP's only hope is to gain enough seats to make a difference as part of a Coalition.

They stand at present to having 6 seats.

That is not enough.

So I guess after asking countless times you are not going to answer the questions.

So I shall leave it at that.

Ta

Have you ever noticed that as soon as you go off line,loads of posters come online?

Hurry up.

Do you need your tummy rubbed buddy lol

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