Poll: Most English wouldn't want to share the pound with an independent Scotland

First topic message reminder :

The English overwhelmingly oppose sharing the pound with an independent Scotland, according to research published today that concludes they want the Government to take a “hard line” with the Scots regardless of the referendum result.

The survey of 3,695 English adults found little support for Scottish separation but only 23 per cent said they would support Alex Salmond’s plan for a formal currency union if there is a Yes vote next month.

However, if independence is rejected, large majorities of voters south of the Border support cutting Scottish public spending to the UK average and banning Scottish MPs from voting on English-only laws at Westminster.

The findings represent a major blow to Mr Salmond’s claim that divorce negotiations following a Yes vote would be amicable and that the UK parties are bluffing about rejecting a currency union with a separate Scotland.

But the Cardiff and Edinburgh university researchers said they also undermined assurances by the Unionist parties that the Barnett formula, which gives Scotland more than £1,200 per head extra of public spending, would remain intact after a No vote.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11044574/English-reject-Alex-Salmonds-plan-to-share-the-pound.html

Maybe some of our English can shed light on this attitude; sounds to me like sour grapes or something ...

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:If Scotland want to go their own way, let them, in fact I think it would be good for England, being as we should start reclaiming an English identity that has been lost through the identity of British. A British identity only came about through Acts of Union and see this as a golden opportunity to revive what was once great about England, where many English people see themselves as English first and hold little for a British identity, which has created also a problem where immigrants who have come to these shores have had a British identity more than an English identity taught into them.

I even think England would be better off going their own way, and if the rest still want to see the Royal family as their monarchy, fair play, but I think many would be far happier if the Union was to completely dissolve.

I tend to agree, Didge.  I've done a lot of thinking about an independent Scotland since I became involved in the devolution movement in the nineties.  I have also become interested in the other mother of Union, England.  She has lost a lot of her identity since she had to embrace so many of the others.

Maybe this is the time that mother gets to go back to school and finish her education.  Become herself again.  Travel.  See the world.  Who knows?

Agreed, and I think if Scotland does vote to become independent it will kick start England to do the same, or at least a call to do so!

England will never be demoted, trust me.  Nor do I think that England and Scotland will return to the age-old antipathy they once had.

Europe will just have two captains in the west.  That's cool.  Two voices of reason.

scrat wrote:

Shady wrote:

HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR!!

Spoken like a true jock.

Afternoon Commander!

Quims hatred for the Greatness of Britain is nowt but a mountain of jealousy, us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment, for Quim it's sadly, junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

Good afternoon Scrat.

Oh I know that about Quill as I've picked him up on it before.But on a sideline,it's interesting to see how non Brits view us.Very interesting.

scrat wrote:

Shady wrote:

HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR!!

Spoken like a true jock.

Afternoon Commander!

Quims hatred for the Greatness of Britain is nowt but a mountain of jealousy, us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment, for Quim it's sadly, junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

I would rather having an independent England, the union has had its time, people identify in England as English, the Brit is a thing of the past as has created disharmony in this country with the dual identity

Shady wrote:

scrat wrote:
Afternoon Commander!

Quims hatred for the Greatness of Britain is nowt but a mountain of jealousy, us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment, for Quim it's sadly, junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

Good afternoon Scrat.

Oh I know that about Quill as I've picked him up on it before.But on a sideline,it's interesting to see how non Brits view us.Very interesting.

I missed scrat's post as the page just turned.  Thanks for picking it up, Shady.

You guys are like the old white men that are presently ruling the Tory Party and the Republican Party over here.  Your ideas are in the past.  "Greatness of Britain"--is that around the midriff or in the ass?  Lol.  You guys have had a great run; but you can't live in the past if you are going to be successful in the present and future.

Adopt change.  It's for the better.

Shady wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's the difference between a negative impetus and a positive impetus.  We live in an ideology of self-determination.  To allow the other three to vote on Scotland's independence would be to deny Scotland's right to self-determination.  It would be a vote of negative impetus.  

None of us in western democracies like that.

And that's where you went wrong Quill......an ideology.In real life the west is run by dictators who seem like nice guys but who are in fact,lying treacherous crooks.

What self determination do you have in the US?........About the same as us in the UK,which are two main political parties.And whether you vote for either party or none at all,you still end up with one of them.

That's not a lot of choice which means there is virtually no self determination.

Self-determination is a struggle, Shady. But so are all our rights. Our whole Constitution is a struggle. But it's a living struggle, and I'm in there pitching with the best of them. That's why I became an attorney. Not only can I have these thoughts, but I'm licensed to go up there and speak them directly.

You and scrat, on the other hand, seem to have given up. I see you sitting around on the green lawn of the rest home, being patronized by the nurses, dozens of years younger than you. Lol.

I'm not gonna go there. I've got me, my ass, and the line I can draw around it. Lol. As long as I've got that, I'm gonna keep on truckin'.  ::D:: 

Didge wrote:

scrat wrote:
Afternoon Commander!

Quims hatred for the Greatness of Britain is nowt but a mountain of jealousy, us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment, for Quim it's sadly, junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

I would rather having an independent England, the union has had its time, people identify in England as English, the Brit is a thing of the past as has created disharmony in this country with the dual identity

Britain is the only "state of the art" nation on the face of this globe, our culture and our language stride the planet, I do not see a dying dinosaur, but a vigorous, ever changing force to be reckoned with.

The union is between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, fortunately we can use the term British to describe each and everyone of us, which is exactly how it should be.

Scotland could easily go it alone, it does not need the oil to do so, but the oil will make it a rich nation, it will not enhance the powers that it already has with the rest of the United Kingdom with a seat as a permanent member of the United Nations.

If Scotland votes for independence, good luck to Scotland and a fair wind.

I hope that the union remains, as recent events demonstrate, we're much better off together.

scrat wrote:

Shady wrote:
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR!!

Spoken like a true jock.

Afternoon Commander!

................................ us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment............... junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

   G'DAY, Sir Scrat and Herr O'Shades !!!

NICE to see that you chaps still have your British sense of humour left, over there..

       

Lone Wolf wrote:

scrat wrote:

Afternoon Commander!

................................   us Brits surround ourselves in sporting victory, cultural victory, linguistic victory, the arts and deeds of enlightenment...............    junk food, obesity and the stench of decay.

     G'DAY,   Sir Scrat and Herr O'Shades  !!!

NICE to see that you chaps still have your British sense of humour left, over there..

          

Hi Wolf, we've definitely got some fatfucks over here, but they're mostly sweaty American tourists shuffling off to McDonald's.

scrat wrote:
Britain is the only "state of the art" nation on the face of this globe, our culture and our language stride the planet, I do not see a dying dinosaur, but a vigorous, ever changing force to be reckoned with.

  

WHAT have you been smoking today,  Mr. Scrat  ?!?
Spiked your whacky_tobacky with a few drops of HDMA, did you ?    :::carnbnn:::

WOLF, take no notice of scrat, over here we think his a bit mental!

Scotland have always been an integral part of the UK and also with Scottish people being in the forefront of shaping the UK and policy and decisions.



It works and should stay as it is.



To break away will Just cost fortunes and install even more levels of expensive bureaucracy at a time when we already have too much cost, expenditure and levels of bureaucracy.



I also think that things should be the same throughout UK as far as free prescriptions and tuition fees etc.


As well as spending etc.



But fact remains that Scots will not have independence as they will sign away all powers to EU straight away.



And if they start to do well financially they will Just have to pay more into EU and will get less in return.



The Scots are being conned with false promises which will Just result in weakening their clout as being part of a strong UK voice.

Tommy Monk wrote:Scotland have always been an integral part of the UK and also with Scottish people being in the forefront of shaping the UK and policy and decisions.

It works and should stay as it is.

To break away will Just cost fortunes and install even more levels of expensive bureaucracy at a time when we already have too much cost, expenditure and levels of bureaucracy.

I also think that things should be the same throughout UK as far as free prescriptions and tuition fees etc.

As well as spending etc.

But fact remains that Scots will not have independence as they will sign away all powers to EU straight away.

And if they start to do well financially they will Just have to pay more into EU and will get less in return.

The Scots are being conned with false promises which will Just result in weakening their clout as being part of a strong UK voice.

You make some good points there Tommy,

A couple of questions. First, why do you say the Scots will sign away all powers to the EU? What incentive? What powers?

Second, why do you say Scotland will have to pay more to the EU if they are successful? If they stayed with the UK, wouldn't they still have to pay their pro rata share?

Third, what false promises are being made to the Scots to "con" them? How/what will weaken the clout of the Scots?

A final thought: you are not a member of UKIP by chance, are you?

1. They will be joining EU immediately as A new member and that will be as a country not part of existing UK law or UK agreements so party to all requirements for new applicants which exceed those already succeeded as part of UK EU membership and don't forget that new applicants have to agree to adopting the euro.


2. As A new member, more is succeeded as already stated, plus they would no longer be part of UK receiving UK rebate, something that was already diminished under labour and Blair.

Also the better off you are perceived to be, The less you get back in grants and funding etc, although the UK already pays considerably much more than it gets back. And would be better off not giving any at all and spending it all within UK directly.

So if Scotland thinks it will be better off, sadly deluded as if they do get better off in one way they will immediately lose that in the EU return.



Bringing me onto point 3.....



Clout is immediately lost as Scots loin EU as new member and are forced to comply with more EU bullshit than currently required as being part of UK as previously explained.


Then after this bigger give away of sovereignty and powers and control, As well as being a collective voice of only the population of Scotland on it's own, how many is that? Rather than being a collective voice of the whole UK of over 60million......


By leaving UK and joining EU as A tiny single nation out on it's own, as A new member subject to all the new requirements etc..... they are going to get reamed out on a major scale!!!!


As well as alienating themselves from the rest of the UK, while weakening the rest of the UK, and further preventing the chances of us all to regain our sovereignty and independence from that which is the EU dictatorship.

Well, all things are negotiable. They can calculate their best position before joining. If it turns into a net deficit for Scotland, I'm sure they will walk away. But somehow I don't see that happening.

I see no reason for Scotland and England, or whatever it will be called, to not be friends. Neither one will be the "tiny" nation you predict. Both will have a very large place in Europe in the future. Both will be an intelligent, rational country...the counter-balance to nations like Italy, Greece or Spain.

I don't see the gloom-and-doom that some English predict.

Scotland has always been part of the UK -- except when they were fighting and dying to keep the British from controlling their country. I saw Braveheart and Trainspotting, you can't fool me -- it's shite being Scottish

Original Quill wrote:Well, all things are negotiable.  They can calculate their best position before joining.  If it turns into a net deficit for Scotland, I'm sure they will walk away.  But somehow I don't see that happening.

I see no reason for Scotland and England, or whatever it will be called, to not be friends.  Neither one will be the "tiny" nation you predict.  Both will have a very large place in Europe in the future.  Both will be an intelligent, rational country...the counter-balance to nations like Italy, Greece or Spain.

I don't see the gloom-and-doom that some English predict.

Nobody in their right mind does, and the Scottish use of the pound could only make the pound stronger, given the fact that Scotland is not Haiti or Costa Rica. Most nations would love to have their currency be the de facto or de jure currency of other first-world nations; that sounds like more stability to me! But you can't convince the modern Daily Mail reader that anything is good besides a nostalgic, Dickensian view of Britain (or is Dickens too recent?).

Ben_Reilly wrote:Scotland has always been part of the UK -- except when they were fighting and dying to keep the British from controlling their country. I saw Braveheart and Trainspotting, you can't fool me -- it's shite being Scottish

WHAT have you been smoking?? It's great to be a Scot. All the girls ask us to dance first.

Original Quill wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Scotland has always been part of the UK -- except when they were fighting and dying to keep the British from controlling their country. I saw Braveheart and Trainspotting, you can't fool me -- it's shite being Scottish

WHAT have you been smoking??  It's great to be a Scot.  All the girls ask us to dance first.

 ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: 

I love Scotland (Machete loves everybody). Just quoting:



Some people hate the English, I don't -- they're just wankers

I love the English. I've studied them all my life, along with the Scots. History and Politics major...and the French gotta get in there too.

Some places in Asia I've never been. People ask, Don't you wanna go there? Nup, just another trip to London or Tobermory, please.

Tommy Monk wrote:1. They will be joining EU immediately as A new member and that will be as a country not part of existing UK law or UK agreements so party to all requirements for new applicants which exceed those already succeeded as part of UK EU membership and don't forget that new applicants have to agree to adopting the euro.


2. As A new member, more is succeeded as already stated, plus they would no longer be part of UK receiving UK rebate, something that was already diminished under labour and Blair.

Also the better off you are perceived to be, The less you get back in grants and funding etc, although the UK already pays considerably much more than it gets back. And would be better off not giving any at all and spending it all within UK directly.

So if Scotland thinks it will be better off, sadly deluded as if they do get better off in one way they will immediately lose that in the EU return.



Bringing me onto point 3.....



Clout is immediately lost as Scots loin EU as new member and are forced to comply with more EU bullshit than currently required as being part of UK as previously explained.


Then after this bigger give away of sovereignty and powers and control, As well as being a collective voice of only the population of Scotland on it's own, how many is that? Rather than being a collective voice of the whole UK of over 60million......


By leaving UK and joining EU as A tiny single nation out on it's own, as A new member subject to all the new requirements etc..... they are going to get reamed out on a major scale!!!!


As well as alienating themselves from the rest of the UK, while weakening the rest of the UK, and further preventing the chances of us all to regain our sovereignty and independence from that which is the EU dictatorship.

Point 4
Perfect Location For the rest of Europe to Launch Invasion of remainder of the UK     

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Scotland has always been part of the UK -- except when they were fighting and dying to keep the British from controlling their country. I saw Braveheart and Trainspotting, you can't fool me -- it's shite being Scottish

WHAT have you been smoking??  It's great to be a Scot.  All the girls ask us to dance first.

 ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: ::kiltbanan:: 

I love Scotland (Machete loves everybody). Just quoting:



Some people hate the English, I don't -- they're just wankers

I always wonder is that MEANT to be a nice day?   cause that sky is grey and miserable, serious I got up today and saw the sky like that and though Shit weather hope it clears up   

It's way up on the other side of the world from you. Even we don't get that far north...'cept Alaska.

The beautiful time of the year is July. I've actually gotten a sunburn in July driving in Scotland with the top down.

Original Quill wrote:I love the English.  I've studied them all my life, along with the Scots.  History and Politics major...and the French gotta get in there too.

Some places in Asia I've never been.  People ask, Don't you wanna go there?  Nup, just another trip to London or Tobermory, please.

And you accuse Ben of being on drugs????        why would you go to London unless you were planning to commit suicide or something and needed to see that LIFE can much much more miserable ...like it is in London       


Ha long bay, Vietnam



PS you can get sunburn in Australia in July too... of course it is winter here then      

and I know its cold but IS the sky actually that grey? like most of the time?
Cause New Zealand still gets pretty bloody cold and is wetter than here (not as bad a Scotland) but the Sky is Normally blue like here. but almost every photo you see of Europe is Grey?

 

IF I go back to the 18th and 19th centuries, I could find some odd personages in the family tree who came out of Englandland...

IT is most peculiar indeed, that a couple of miscreants on this forum of a distinctly rascally and vacuous nature, will on occasion come out with their vapid and fallacious claims that I must somehow "..hate England and the English people", simply on the shaky basis that I had the temerity to disagree with their most recent silly little nationalistic rant..  ::gnslnger:: 

Ignore all the points I raised I see......
Independence is a complete con when a vote for means getting less as will be signing even more away to EU straight away.
And if You don't know how big an influence the Scots have been in directing and shaping The UK in the past, being much bigger influence than population in comparison, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Think about it, the question is "do you think Scotland should be an independent country?".....
Surely the question should be two fold....
Should Scotland leave the UK?
Should Scotland be in the EU?
I reckon that more would like to stay in UK than join EU.....

Tommy Monk wrote:Ignore all the points I raised I see......
Independence is a complete con when a vote for means getting less as will be signing even more away to EU straight away.
And if You don't know how big an influence the Scots have been in directing and shaping The UK in the past, being much bigger influence than population in comparison, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Think about it, the question is "do you think Scotland should be an independent country?".....
Surely the question should be two fold....
Should Scotland leave the UK?
Should Scotland be in the EU?
I reckon that more would like to stay in UK than join EU.....

neither is a great option     
but they'd be better off in the EU long term because well the UK will be as import as Burma IF it leave the EU which it looks like it might.. the EU is still going to keep some relevance even if only a fraction of what it had in the 20th century simply because it will have the population.
The idea that Any of these tiny Euro nations should remain nations is silly naive and so 'old world'. Join together make the United States of Europe and be competitive again cause at the moment your NOT because of the USA, China and India.
Jesus        Even ISIS can see that 'Huge United group' is the way to power not piddly little separate units.

Hells yeah they'd be better off in the EU and away from those colonizing wankers ...

Drugs, me? Whatever, back to my Cheech & Chong movie ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:Hells yeah they'd be better off in the EU and away from those colonizing wankers ...

Drugs, me? Whatever, back to my Cheech & Chong movie ...

  

Colonising wankers eh???



Maybe you should check out how many of these colonising wankers was actually Scottish.....


And The EU is part of the problem, not The solution.



And in case you hadn't noticed, huge numbers of European people want out of EU too!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Colonising wankers eh???



Maybe you should check out how many of these colonising wankers was actually Scottish.....


And The EU is part of the problem, not The solution.



And in case you hadn't noticed, huge numbers of European people want out of EU too!!!

I think Bens bleating about the founding fathers being colonising wankers, the British being British were more interested in tea than managing a herd of fat fucks.

Washington was a Virginian coloniser, that meant slaves and backy.

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Ignore all the points I raised I see......
Independence is a complete con when a vote for means getting less as will be signing even more away to EU straight away.
And if You don't know how big an influence the Scots have been in directing and shaping The UK in the past, being much bigger influence than population in comparison, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Think about it, the question is "do you think Scotland should be an independent country?".....
Surely the question should be two fold....
Should Scotland leave the UK?
Should Scotland be in the EU?
I reckon that more would like to stay in UK than join EU.....

neither is a great option     
but they'd be better off in the EU long term because well the UK will be as import as Burma IF it leave the EU which it looks like it might.. the EU is still going to keep some relevance even if only a fraction of what it had in the 20th century simply because it will have the population.
The idea that Any of these tiny Euro nations should remain nations is silly naive and so 'old world'. Join together make the United States of Europe and be competitive again cause at the moment your NOT because of the USA, China and India.
Jesus        Even ISIS can see that 'Huge United group' is the way to power not piddly little separate units.

Beautiful pictures of the Tasmanian Sea and the South China Sea, veya.

I don't really think that Europe will work as a single nation.  We tend to think solely in terms of economics, but there are other factors that work in as well.  I took a course on this at Berkeley, and even chose to write a term paper on nationalism.  The languages, cultures, religions, and histories are too diverse.

Indeed, in fact that is a part of the problem with the UK.  Scotland works pretty well with England because during the reign of King David I Canmore, tonnes of Normans were invited in and given estates in the eastern part of Scotland (hence the wide schism between Highland and Lowland Scots, and Island Scots as well).  Magnus Magnusson, Scotland: The Story of a Nation (2000); and for the perspective of western and island Scots, see MacLean, Fitzroy, Scotland: A Concise History (1970).  You see it most in Ireland with the Troubles...it's not a religious thing--well, a bit--but a Celtic/Pict vs. Norman thing.  That, erm, same nationalism still lingers a bit in Scotland.

Back to Scotland's history.  What do you think that Braveheart was all about?  It was the Celtic/Pict vs. Norman thing.  It was based on a prized book by Jane Porter, The Scottish Chiefs (1810).  This great novel chronicled the wars between the Norman/Angevin King Edward I and the grassroots uprising of the Highland and Western Scots, led by the Renfrewshire knight, William Wallace.  Indeed, the Stewarts came out of western lands, but alas they were Normans...being the Earls of Carrick.  Robert the Bruce's mother was Celtic however, from estates around the River Clyde and Renfrewshire.  Scott, Ronald McNair, Robert the Bruce: King of Scots, (1996).

The point being that even though the nationalism comes in small packages in Europe, they carry big impacts.

Quill wrote :

I don't really think that Europe will work as a single nation.  We tend to think solely in terms of economics, but there are other factors that work in as well.  I took a course on this at Berkeley, and even chose to write a term paper on nationalism.  The languages, cultures, religions, and histories are too diverse.


I've been saying that for years and The economies are too vastly different for a one size fits all currency, interest rate etc to work either.


That is why things are so fucked up now.

Tommy Monk wrote:Better to be like Switzerland....

What are the benefits of being like Switzerland?

They're not in the EU but they still have to comply with EU standards to trade their products and they are not in a customs union either. Our exports would be more expensive and it would cost us more for the goods we import from countries within the EU.

Tommy Monk wrote:1. They will be joining EU immediately as A new member and that will be as a country not part of existing UK law or UK agreements so party to all requirements for new applicants which exceed those already succeeded as part of UK EU membership and don't forget that new applicants have to agree to adopting the euro.


2. As A new member, more is succeeded as already stated, plus they would no longer be part of UK receiving UK rebate, something that was already diminished under labour and Blair.

Also the better off you are perceived to be, The less you get back in grants and funding etc, although the UK already pays considerably much more than it gets back. And would be better off not giving any at all and spending it all within UK directly.

So if Scotland thinks it will be better off, sadly deluded as if they do get better off in one way they will immediately lose that in the EU return.



Bringing me onto point 3.....



Clout is immediately lost as Scots loin EU as new member and are forced to comply with more EU bullshit than currently required as being part of UK as previously explained.


Then after this bigger give away of sovereignty and powers and control, As well as being a collective voice of only the population of Scotland on it's own, how many is that? Rather than being a collective voice of the whole UK of over 60million......


By leaving UK and joining EU as A tiny single nation out on it's own, as A new member subject to all the new requirements etc..... they are going to get reamed out on a major scale!!!!


As well as alienating themselves from the rest of the UK, while weakening the rest of the UK, and further preventing the chances of us all to regain our sovereignty and independence from that which is the EU dictatorship.

1. No country would be forced to join the Euro if it was not the will of the people of the country joining - Sweden

2. Why wouldn't we still get part of the rebate? We put in just the same as everyone else in the UK so we're entitled to get back the same as everyone else.
You should read the small print about the rebate.

3. Why would Scotland have to comply with more BS than we currently do at the moment? That doesn't make sense.

  TOMMY M. is becoming quite the expert copy & paster these days, with that crappola that he keeps on gathering from his pet nationalistic and fascist enclaves...

PITY that his complete ignorance over all issues political, economic and social ~ not to mention that his utter stupidity and poor comprehension skills has dulled his mind to the level of a rough-cut piece of lumber ~ means that he himself hasn't a clue about just what a load of pointless drivel he's posting on here !

lone wolf, the fount of all knowledge, if brains were dynamite you wouldn't have enough to blow your hat off!!

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Ignore all the points I raised I see......
Independence is a complete con when a vote for means getting less as will be signing even more away to EU straight away.
And if You don't know how big an influence the Scots have been in directing and shaping The UK in the past, being much bigger influence than population in comparison, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Think about it, the question is "do you think Scotland should be an independent country?".....
Surely the question should be two fold....
Should Scotland leave the UK?
Should Scotland be in the EU?
I reckon that more would like to stay in UK than join EU.....

neither is a great option     
but they'd be better off in the EU long term because well the UK will be as import as Burma IF it leave the EU which it looks like it might.. the EU is still going to keep some relevance even if only a fraction of what it had in the 20th century simply because it will have the population.
The idea that Any of these tiny Euro nations should remain nations is silly naive and so 'old world'. Join together make the United States of Europe and be competitive again cause at the moment your NOT because of the USA, China and India.
Jesus        Even ISIS can see that 'Huge United group' is the way to power not piddly little separate units.

Beautiful pictures of the Tasmanian Sea and the South China Sea, veya.

I don't really think that Europe will work as a single nation.  We tend to think solely in terms of economics, but there are other factors that work in as well.  I took a course on this at Berkeley, and even chose to write a term paper on nationalism.  The languages, cultures, religions, and histories are too diverse.

Indeed, in fact that is a part of the problem with the UK.  Scotland works pretty well with England because during the reign of King David I Canmore, tonnes of Normans were invited in and given estates in the eastern part of Scotland (hence the wide schism between Highland and Lowland Scots, and Island Scots as well).  Magnus Magnusson, Scotland: The Story of a Nation (2000); and for the perspective of western and island Scots, see MacLean, Fitzroy, Scotland: A Concise History (1970).  You see it most in Ireland with the Troubles...it's not a religious thing--well, a bit--but a Celtic/Pict vs. Norman thing.  That, erm, same nationalism still lingers a bit in Scotland.

Back to Scotland's history.  What do you think that Braveheart was all about?  It was the Celtic/Pict vs. Norman thing.  It was based on a prized book by Jane Porter, The Scottish Chiefs (1810).  This great novel chronicled the wars between the Norman/Angevin King Edward I and the grassroots uprising of the Highland and Western Scots, led by the Renfrewshire knight, William Wallace.  Indeed, the Stewarts came out of western lands, but alas they were Normans...being the Earls of Carrick.  Robert the Bruce's mother was Celtic however, from estates around the River Clyde and Renfrewshire.  Scott, Ronald McNair, Robert the Bruce: King of Scots, (1996).

The point being that even though the nationalism comes in small packages in Europe, they carry big impacts.

I agree they will fail because of their attitude     
but it is still the best option. It might take another 50 years to settle but long term it will be worth it.

nicko wrote:lone wolf,  the fount of all knowledge, if brains were dynamite you wouldn't have enough to blow your hat off!!

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

Scottish independence: Is Scotland the 14th richest nation in the world?

It's this list of GDP per person that the Scottish government is quoting as part of the referendum debate, as Scotland, with its relatively small population, would rank 14th in the world according to a table produced by the OECD - the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development.

The list is here....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-266141

The list was prepared by the Scottish government using statistics from the UK Office for National Statistics, to make an equivalent figure for Scottish GDP per capita.

Can the UK afford to lose us?

We can easily afford to let Scotland go and as I said before if this is what Scotland wants then so be it as it is high time as stated before that England regains its identity, which the Scots have always had, they have always more identified with being Scottish first than British.
If anything it will create more problems for Scotalnd as it will take them time to gain entry into the EU, which is their wish to do so and create for a time problems on the stock market Irn. The pound might lose for a short time its regained strength but this would also be minimal and in fact many companies for the time would leave scotland for a easier option of doing business through the rest of the UK
So it is all not song and roses for Scotland to leave and in reality the vote will be one to stay

I saw last night that the majority of Scots are intending to vote to stay within the UK.

I think they should be brave and go for it. I honestly think with their oil they would be alright.

Bru, Scotland will be joining the EU as A separate country and a new member, therefore it will be subject to all rules enforced on new members and no longer party to any UK agreements, including UK rebate negotiated by UK govt, thatcher actually but of mIGag half of it was given away by last labour govt.


New members are expected to adopt the euro. Although this may not be straight away, it will be part of rules of joining.


I have not been copying and pasting so flea keeper again talking complete bollocks and bringing less than nothing to The debate.

HE brings nothing to any debate,only insults.

Tommy Monk wrote:Bru, Scotland will be joining the EU as A separate country and a new member, therefore it will be subject to all rules enforced on new members and no longer party to any UK agreements, including UK rebate negotiated by UK govt, thatcher actually but of mIGag half of it was given away by last labour govt.


New members are expected to adopt the euro. Although this may not be straight away, it will be part of rules of joining.


I have not been copying and pasting so flea keeper again talking complete bollocks and bringing less than nothing to The debate.

Tommy, the money coming back from the rebate is based on what was put in which included money that came from Scotland via the UK Treasury. In fact I think you would find that the remaining part of the UK would see their share of the rebate drop due to Scotland getting their share based on what was input.

Yes, new members are expected to join but the EU is not going to force it on any country where the people have rejected it. And just for the record, the EU expect the UK to join the Euro as well if and when they get to ERMII.

Think you are looking through rose tinted glasses a bit here bru.


The UK rebate is just that, a UK rebate.


With Scotland leaving the UK it will no longer be part of UK agreements with EU.


It will have to join as A small new member and will unlikely be successful in any demands.



Why are Scots being asked if Scotland should be an independent country when this is not also about in/out of EU?


Why are Scots being denied the chance to decide on EU membership?

Most in UK want less EU,not more, and certainly don't want the euro ever.


The EU and euro are the problems, not The solutions.

Tommy Monk wrote:Think you are looking through rose tinted glasses a bit here bru.


The UK rebate is just that, a UK rebate.


With Scotland leaving the UK it will no longer be part of UK agreements with EU.


It will have to join as A small new member and will unlikely be successful in any demands.



Why are Scots being asked if Scotland should be an independent country when this is not also about in/out of EU?


Why are Scots being denied the chance to decide on EU membership?

Most in UK want less EU,not more, and certainly don't want the euro ever.


The EU and euro are the problems, not The solutions.

My sense is that you are the one confusing EU membership with UK membership, Tommy.  UK first, deal with the EU later.  By putting them in the same melting pot, you are trying to pat down conclusions that aren't really there.

In my experience, everything is negotiable.  Probably, negotiations are going on right now.  But there are no foregone conclusions, such as you are suggesting, tommy.  Rules don't apply when no relationship exists.  And rules can be amended, for relationships that do exist.

Right now, relations with Russia being what they are, Europe is in dire need of oil. No one is going to pull out North Sea oil without the port of Aberdeen.  That's a lot of negotiation power.

UK membership is the only thing in question.


EU membership is planned but the people aren't being allowed a say.


I'm asking why people are being asked if Scotland should be an independent country when in reality, if voting yes it will mean signing up to The EU straight away and not being independent at all?


Surely this in out UK vote would be a perfect time for Scots to also voice their opinion on whether they should be EU members or not.... don't you think?

Tommy Monk wrote:UK membership is the only thing in question.


EU membership is planned but the people aren't being allowed a say.


I'm asking why people are being asked if Scotland should be an independent country when in reality, if voting yes it will mean signing up to The EU straight away and not being independent at all?


Surely this in out UK vote would be a perfect time for Scots to also voice their opinion on whether they should be EU members or not.... don't you think?

I think all things equal, Scots will adopt EU memberships.  Economically it makes sense.

Terms are negotiable.

Shouldn't the people be getting the chance to be making the decision???



Economically it doesn't make sense to be paying more into something than they would be getting out.



And if it's one thing I know about the Scots it is that they are murder round a pound note.



As you say, they got oil, they also got whisky, and plenty of farming and fish produce which people won't stop buying if outside the EU.



Can't really think of any reason they would want to join at all and just give a load of money away, plus giving away their newly won sovereignty......if yes vote that is....



But if they are left without a currency then they may have to join EU and adopt the euro straight away....





Can you name any benefits they would have by joining EU...????



I can't!