Poll: Most English wouldn't want to share the pound with an independent Scotland

First topic message reminder :

The English overwhelmingly oppose sharing the pound with an independent Scotland, according to research published today that concludes they want the Government to take a “hard line” with the Scots regardless of the referendum result.

The survey of 3,695 English adults found little support for Scottish separation but only 23 per cent said they would support Alex Salmond’s plan for a formal currency union if there is a Yes vote next month.

However, if independence is rejected, large majorities of voters south of the Border support cutting Scottish public spending to the UK average and banning Scottish MPs from voting on English-only laws at Westminster.

The findings represent a major blow to Mr Salmond’s claim that divorce negotiations following a Yes vote would be amicable and that the UK parties are bluffing about rejecting a currency union with a separate Scotland.

But the Cardiff and Edinburgh university researchers said they also undermined assurances by the Unionist parties that the Barnett formula, which gives Scotland more than £1,200 per head extra of public spending, would remain intact after a No vote.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11044574/English-reject-Alex-Salmonds-plan-to-share-the-pound.html

Maybe some of our English can shed light on this attitude; sounds to me like sour grapes or something ...

Tommy Monk wrote:Shouldn't the people be getting the chance to be making the decision???

I think they will.

Tommy Monk wrote:Economically it doesn't make sense to be paying more into something than they would be getting out.

But it's a part of a political strategy to secure the North Sea oil.

Tommy Monk wrote:And if it's one thing I know about the Scots it is that they are murder round a pound note.

Great line from a film I forgot: T'is a bi'ouva hae prace, is it not?

Tommy Monk wrote:As you say, they got oil, they also got whisky, and plenty of farming and fish produce which people won't stop buying if outside the EU.

Can't really think of any reason they would want to join at all and just give a load of money away, plus giving away their newly won sovereignty......if yes vote that is....

Oil politics is the big thing.  

There's a thriving economy around computers and tech.  Whiskey I would suspect is negligible.  Fishing...ship building.  They'll do all right.

Tommy Monk wrote:But if they are left without a currency then they may have to join EU and adopt the euro straight away....

Can you name any benefits they would have by joining EU...????

I can't!

Not to worry about currency.  What it comes down to is the politics of oil.  I suspect that Scotland is going to be handed a pretty sweet deal.

Scots are not getting a say on whether they want to be in EU or not.


And You still haven't answered....


And what would be the benefit of them joining?

Tommy Monk wrote:Scots are not getting a say on whether they want to be in EU or not.

Maybe I don't understand the question...why wouldn't they be given a vote, or at least be able to vote through their representatives?

Tommy Monk wrote:And You still haven't answered....


And what would be the benefit of them joining?

Securing the North Sea oil. I thought I'd made that clear. There are bound to be a lot of claimants for that oil. There will be boundary disputes and all. If Scotland can secure a strong ally in the EU, isn't that alone worth it?

The Scottish people are not being given a say on EU membership.



The boundaries are already clear around Scotland. And Scotland already has apowerful ally in The rest of UK.



So again you have not given any beneficial reason for Scotland to join EU.

Tommy Monk wrote:
Think you are looking through rose tinted glasses a bit here bru.


The UK rebate is just that, a UK rebate.

But the British government have said themselves that the UK rebate would be adjusted accordingly. If you think that the EU are going to dish out the same amount to a smaller UK when they didn’t put it all in then you are seriously mistaken.

Tommy Monk wrote:
With Scotland leaving the UK it will no longer be part of UK agreements with EU.

It will have to join as A small new member and will unlikely be successful in any demands.

You call them demands but as Quill has already pointed out to you there will be negotiations. And Scotland has a good hand to play in that respect what with all these fertile fishing grounds and rich oil resources not to mention they are also a market where they can sell their goods it’s a good hand at that.

Tommy Monk wrote:
Why are Scots being asked if Scotland should be an independent country when this is not also about in/out of EU?


Why are Scots being denied the chance to decide on EU membership?

What makes you think they wouldn’t be asked? Unlike England there is no groundswell of support in Scotland for leaving the EU but if there was then I would think they would be asked. Scotland has a progressive government and it shows in so many ways.

Tommy Monk wrote:
Most in UK want less EU,not more, and certainly don't want the euro ever.

The EU and euro are the problems, not The solutions.

But I told you we wouldn’t have to join the Euro and I even explained why.

And just to clarify Tommy. As things stand I don’t have a foot in either the yes or the no camp. I was leaning to a yes vote but after watching the D-Day events just a few weeks ago and seeing all the Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish soldiers mixing in together jut like they did back then in 1944 and before I got to thinking that it would be a shame to put all that behind us and just walk away. I’m not really all that bothered and as long as it is not under a Tory government I would be happy to stay as part of the UK or go as an independent country if that’s what the people decide.

I don’t think they will though.

And before you come back with anything else I think you should read this and then go and have a wee lie doon because it's not clear cut what the position of what would remain of the UK in respect of their continued membership would be. Looks like your best chance of getting out of the EU could lie in the hands of the Scottish electorate.

UK faces EU re- negotiation over Scottish independence

(BRUSSELS) - Britain would have to re-negotiate its EU membership if Scotland voted for independence, senior EU sources told AFP as Scotland and England fight a high-stakes referendum battle.

The possible break-up of the United Kingdom made international headlines this week when Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond and British Prime Minister David Cameron clashed on a vote now set for 2014.

Issues include whether Scotland would have to "exit and re-apply" for European Union membership, raising questions about whether it would then have to adopt the crisis-hit euro, unlike London.

But lawyers for the EU said an independent Scotland could be treated as one of two successor states, and that a separate seat for Edinburgh would require only a majority vote among member states.

At the European Council, where leaders stage decisive summits, a deal could be "done by the Council, using qualified majority voting and with the required say-so of the European Parliament," said one of those lawyers.

Cameron last month opted out of a re-negotiation of the EU's Lisbon Treaty on which this guidance is based.

Imagine that eh!

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/britain-politics.eju

Double posted - deleted

The rebate will be revised down and I hope that goes for UK contributions too.
But not necessarily handed to Scotland.


As I said they will have to join up as a repercud nation and negotiate, although new members are required to comply with all the new directives and have little room for any negotiation.



Currently there are no plans to ask the newly 'independent' Scottish people whether they want to join The EU or not, surely this should be asked before joining?



Plus I have still not heard any reason why joining the EU would benefit Scotland.


They will be paying in far much more than they will ever get out just to be told what to do and when and how, And to get access to people to buy their stuff when those people would still buy it all anyway if stayed out.



Can you or quill or anyone else give me any beneficial reasons for Scotland to join The EU and immediately hand away their newly won independence?

Tommy Monk wrote:.
The rebate will be revised down and I hope that goes for UK contributions too.
But not necessarily handed to Scotland.

It will be revised down but what evidence do you have that the difference won’t come to Sotland?

Tommy Monk wrote:. As I said they will have to join up as a repercud nation and negotiate, although new members are required to comply with all the new directives and have little room for any negotiation.

I gave you several good reasons why there is room for negotiation and that Scotland has a strong hand to play. And if you read the article I gave you in my last post it looks like the remaining counties of the UK could be in the same boat.

Tommy Monk wrote:. Currently there are no plans to ask the newly 'independent' Scottish people whether they want to join The EU or not, surely this should be asked before joining?

You don’t know that for sure and I told you that there is no real support for Scotland not to be in the EU.  If there was then I would think that they would be asked.

Tommy Monk wrote:. Plus I have still not heard any reason why joining the EU would benefit Scotland.


They will be paying in far much more than they will ever get out just to be told what to do and when and how, And to get access to people to buy their stuff when those people would still buy it all anyway if stayed out.

You obviously don’t understand the value of a free trade agreement and being in a Customs Union because if you did you would know that not being in one would mean additional costs to the value of our exports and what we bring in from other EU countries. Same applies to the UK. Gone are the days when a single country can call the shots to the rest of the world in world trade.

Tommy Monk wrote:.]Can you or quill or anyone else give me any beneficial reasons for Scotland to join The EU and immediately hand away their newly won independence?

I just gave you one. In fact I have given you several.

Here's that link again about the situation relating to the continued membership of the remaining UK countries regarding EU membership. Read it this time.

UK faces EU re-negotiation over Scottish independence

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/britain-politics.eju

Scotland has no hand to paly, people are deluded based off oil which has diminished in quantity and wealth over the last 5 years, where as the Uk has the city, where again business will leave Scotland if they vote independence

Didge wrote:Scotland has no hand to paly, people are deluded based off oil which has diminished in quantity and wealth over the last 5 years, where as the Uk has the city, where again business will leave Scotland if they vote independence

Oil is only part of Scotland's wealth and we have so much more to offer than just that. But what is still left is considerable and a new field with billions of barrels has only just been discovered off the West coast of the Shetland Islands. Perhaps you missed it on the news.

Read up on Scotland's wealth without the oil. It's publicly available and once you have brushed up on it then I'm sure you'll get the drift.

You've come on the go a bit late and I'm about to turn in but check it out and report back to me tomorrow and I''l consider your findings in precise detail.

Get some sleep Didge. CYA tomorrow.

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:Scotland has no hand to paly, people are deluded based off oil which has diminished in quantity and wealth over the last 5 years, where as the Uk has the city, where again business will leave Scotland if they vote independence

Oil is only part of Scotland's wealth and we have so much more to offer than just that. But what is still left is considerable and a new field with billions of barrels has only just been discovered off the West coast of the Shetland Islands. Perhaps you missed it on the news.

Read up on Scotland's wealth without the oil. It's publicly available and once you have brushed up on it then I'm sure you'll get the drift.

You've come on the go a bit late and I'm about to turn in but check it out and report back to me tomorrow and I''l consider your findings in precise detail.

Get some sleep Didge. CYA tomorrow.

Utter babble, oil has diminished for many years and the fact is many companies have stated, they will leave Scotland if they gain independance, where they are very reliant, because Scotland will have to gain entry into the EU
You are one thick Jock as seen, because as seen Scotland gaining independence will be their downfall, but you buy the gullible crap you read.
Never mind mate, you will learn one day, even Gordon Brown bashes your hopes

1. The UK EU rebate is just That, a UK negotiated rebate for the UK.
The EU have been constantly trying to reduce And even remove it for UK.
If Scotland leaves UK then this will be a golden opportunity for EU to reduce this further,although I'm not convinced they will be as willing to reduce the UK contribution as much in comparison.
But there is no evidence that any of this rebate will automatically be granted to an independent Scotland, in fact there is no reason to think that an independent Scotland will automatically get any of the opt outs or concessions already enjoyed as being part of UK.
They will be joining as new members as far as I'm aware and will be automatically subject to all other new members joining.
2. Reasons for negotiation?
What negotiation?
The SNP have already voiced their strong intention to join EU and have not said anything about only if certain requirements or demands are met, or anything about asking the people of Scotland for their consent.
What are the things to be negotiated that if not met will make the SNP refuse to join?
As far as I am aware, all new members have to comply with all requirements from EU and this also has to be agreed by all the other 28 (now is it?) members.
I can't see all of these (or any in fact) agreeing to Scotland getting a better deal than they have themselves.
Also if it is to believed that Scotland will be so much better off by leaving the UK then it will also follow that they will be asked to contribute more and get less in return in EU grants and funding etc.
Furthermore, not only will the EU dictate to Scotland with little to no negotiation once signed up, but Scotland will also not have independence or its own national sovereignty.
3. If there were any plans to have a Scottish referendum on EU then surely now would be the best and most sensible time to have it?
But the Scottish people are not being asked, instead they are being told that EU membership will happen whether in UK or after leaving UK.
The option of leaving EU or not joining EU is not being asked or considered, And I see no plan for Scots to ever be asked.
Can you show anywhere where there are plans for Scottish say on EU membership?
Or irrefutable evidence that Scots want to be in EU?
4. Free trade is a myth because it is not free at all, It costs billions for EU membership and billions more in EU regulations, all to sell stuff to people who would buy it anyway without the EU, its regulations and expense.
I have not looked at your link yet.

Didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:Scotland has no hand to paly, people are deluded based off oil which has diminished in quantity and wealth over the last 5 years, where as the Uk has the city, where again business will leave Scotland if they vote independence

Oil is only part of Scotland's wealth and we have so much more to offer than just that. But what is still left is considerable and a new field with billions of barrels has only just been discovered off the West coast of the Shetland Islands. Perhaps you missed it on the news.

Read up on Scotland's wealth without the oil. It's publicly available and once you have brushed up on it then I'm sure you'll get the drift.

You've come on the go a bit late and I'm about to turn in but check it out and report back to me tomorrow and I''l consider your findings in precise detail.

Get some sleep Didge. CYA tomorrow.

Utter babble, oil has diminished for many years and the fact is many companies have stated, they will leave Scotland if they gain independance, where they are very reliant, because Scotland will have to gain entry into the EU
You are one thick Jock as seen, because as seen Scotland gaining independence will be their downfall, but you buy the gullible crap you read.
Never mind mate, you will learn one day, even Gordon Brown bashes your hopes

Good grief!!! This debate was ticking along quite nicely over the past couple of days without any insults and with no racially aggravated elements being directed at anyone. Well that was until you jumped in again and did exactly that. And it’s not the first time you have used racially aggravated stuff at me is it? You did it before only to apologise later but as always your apologies are meaningless words because you just go and do it all over again

When you can address the points made as I asked - which you clearly didn’t even try to do - then I will be happy to respond so try posting something that is free of racially aggravated nonsense and downright insults and I’ll be quite happy to address what you come back with.

You could learn a thing or two from Tommy who at least on this thread has conducted himself in an adult fashion addressing all the points without having to resort to what you have just done.

Just a reminder of why in the eyes of the law the stuff you wrote is considered racist

Postman who called Andy Murray 'useless jock' is convicted of racism

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8678475/Postman-who-called-Andy-Murray-useless-jock-is-convicted-of-racism.html

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:



Utter babble, oil has diminished for many years and the fact is many companies have stated, they will leave Scotland if they gain independance, where they are very reliant, because Scotland will have to gain entry into the EU
You are one thick Jock as seen, because as seen Scotland gaining independence will be their downfall, but you buy the gullible crap you read.
Never mind mate, you will learn one day, even Gordon Brown bashes your hopes

Good grief!!! This debate was ticking along quite nicely over the past couple of days without any insults and with no racially aggravated elements being directed at anyone. Well that was until you jumped in again and did exactly that. And it’s not the first time you have used racially aggravated stuff at me is it? You did it before only to apologise later but as always your apologies are meaningless words because you just go and do it all over again

When you can address the points made as I asked  - which you clearly didn’t even try to do - then I will be happy to respond so try posting something that is free of  racially aggravated nonsense and downright insults and I’ll be quite happy to address what you come back with.

You could learn a thing or two from Tommy who at least on this thread has conducted himself in an adult fashion addressing all the points without having to resort to what you have just done.

Just a reminder of why in the eyes of the law the stuff you wrote is considered racist

Postman who called Andy Murray 'useless jock' is convicted of racism

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8678475/Postman-who-called-Andy-Murray-useless-jock-is-convicted-of-racism.html

I think you a re a left wing twat, which is more right to think so and to call you Jock when many scots use the word is both amusing to say the least, being as I am not claiming Jocks are inferior, sadly PC crap mainly from the left has made such words which were no insults to daft claims of racism, which is why people like you are utterly clueless, so yes you are one thick Jock

Again independence will be a disaster for Scotland, being as the amount of oil has dwindled very fast and continues to do so.

Tommy, let’s continue with the debate in an adult fashion without the need for insults and racially aggravated nonsense  that’s coming from the sidelines purely with the intention of just starting an argument. Here we go then

Tommy Monk wrote:1.The UK EU rebate is just That, a UK negotiated rebate for the UK.
The EU have been constantly trying to reduce And even remove it for UK.
If Scotland leaves UK then this will be a golden opportunity for EU to reduce this further,although I'm not convinced they will be as willing to reduce the UK contribution as much in comparison.
But there is no evidence that any of this rebate will automatically be granted to an independent Scotland, in fact there is no reason to think that an independent Scotland will automatically get any of the opt outs or concessions already enjoyed as being part of UK.
They will be joining as new members as far as I'm aware and will be automatically subject to all other new members joining.

Yes, the rebate was granted based on what was put in and a proportion of that came from Scotland. The UK rebate will go down based on what came from the countries possibly remaining in the EU therefore the balance would be due to Scotland. That’s where the negotiations kick in and I would hardly think they are going to keep money that is not rightfully theirs.

Tommy Monk wrote:2. Reasons for negotiation?
What negotiation?
The SNP have already voiced their strong intention to join EU and have not said anything about only if certain requirements or demands are met, or anything about asking the people of Scotland for their consent.
What are the things to be negotiated that if not met will make the SNP refuse to join?
As far as I am aware, all new members have to comply with all requirements from EU and this also has to be agreed by all the other 28 (now is it?) members.
I can't see all of these (or any in fact) agreeing to Scotland getting a better deal than they have themselves.
Also if it is to believed that Scotland will be so much better off by leaving the UK then it will also follow that they will be asked to contribute more and get less in return in EU grants and funding etc.
Furthermore, not only will the EU dictate to Scotland with little to no negotiation once signed up, but Scotland will also not have independence or its own national sovereignty.

Scotland are already in the EU as part of the UK and there is no groundswell of support in Scotland to get out of it. I honestly don’t know what would make a Scottish government want to leave because there is absolutely no way that anyone can predict what deal Scotland would get but I would think the deal would similar to what we have at the moment. Why wouldn’t it be?

Tommy Monk wrote:3. If there were any plans to have a Scottish referendum on EU then surely now would be the best and most sensible time to have it?
But the Scottish people are not being asked, instead they are being told that EU membership will happen whether in UK or after leaving UK.
The option of leaving EU or not joining EU is not being asked or considered, And I see no plan for Scots to ever be asked.
Can you show anywhere where there are plans for Scottish say on EU membership?
Or irrefutable evidence that Scots want to be in EU?

They’re not being asked because there is no reason to ask. If opinion polls were ever to show that a majority of Scots wanted to leave the EU or there was considerable public unrest about Scotland being in the EU then I would think that a Scottish government would’t run around trying to think of every reason the book not to have one like down in Westminster then they would go right ahead and have one.

Tommy Monk wrote:Free trade is a myth because it is not free at all, It costs billions for EU membership and billions more in EU regulations, all to sell stuff to people who would buy it anyway without the EU, its regulations and expense.

You’re confusing free trade and a Customs union with financial matters which is an entirely different thing altogether. Even out of the EU we would still have to meet the same standards as countries in the EU in order to sell our goods there. That’s goes for the entire UK as well

Tommy Monk wrote:I have not looked at your link yet.

Read it Tommy because if you do you will see that all the questions you are throwing at me are the same questions that the rest of may have to follow on the back of a ‘yes’vote.

Also, UKIP did better in Scotland than SNP in this years EU elections.


And I keep hearing the claim that more money will be spent on services post independence which means higher taxes, but also business rates will be lowered, so you know that means all the extra taxes being levied directly on the Scottish people through income tax.....


So are Scots going to be better off???


Or just finding less in their pockets As the extra tax demands start coming???



Because on top of that, this whole split up is going to cost an absolute fortune!!!



And Scots will be expected to pay for all that too!!!






And ignore dodgey Didge... think he's been on the piss last couple days....

As I keep saying, Scotland will have to join as A new member and be subject to all the latest rules and follow the criteria set out for new members.


And if IT's such a benefit to be in, then Scotland won't be able to refuse.



Or what will be grounds for refusal to join?



You see, Scotland can't really argue for much because it all has to be approved by all the other 28 member countries and As I said before, I can't see any of The latest joiners being happy about Scotland getting a better deal than they have had to subscribe to.



Scotland is part of The UK, And it is the UK that is a member.


Scotland leaves UK then it is a new applicant in its own right.


Separate means separate.

Most people in England don't give 2 fcks about this, in or out who cares, I don't.

It will cost us a fortune in bureaucracy and re-organising everything here too nicko....

Didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Good grief!!! This debate was ticking along quite nicely over the past couple of days without any insults and with no racially aggravated elements being directed at anyone. Well that was until you jumped in again and did exactly that. And it’s not the first time you have used racially aggravated stuff at me is it? You did it before only to apologise later but as always your apologies are meaningless words because you just go and do it all over again

When you can address the points made as I asked  - which you clearly didn’t even try to do - then I will be happy to respond so try posting something that is free of  racially aggravated nonsense and downright insults and I’ll be quite happy to address what you come back with.

You could learn a thing or two from Tommy who at least on this thread has conducted himself in an adult fashion addressing all the points without having to resort to what you have just done.

Just a reminder of why in the eyes of the law the stuff you wrote is considered racist

Postman who called Andy Murray 'useless jock' is convicted of racism

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8678475/Postman-who-called-Andy-Murray-useless-jock-is-convicted-of-racism.html

I think you a re a left wing twat, which is more right to think so and to call you Jock when many scots use the word is both amusing to say the least, being as I am not claiming Jocks are inferior, sadly PC crap mainly from the left has made such words which were no insults to daft claims of racism, which is why people like you are utterly clueless, so yes you are one thick Jock

Again independence will be a disaster for Scotland, being as the amount of oil has dwindled very fast and continues to do so.

Didge, behave yourself.  I'm a left wing twat too!  Lol.  I happen to be a bit more enthusiastic that even Irn is about the oil.  A new field has just been found in Scotland's near back yard, and it could turn Scotland into a new oil mecca...that's how big it is.

Let's go back to where you were wishing England could regain and re-enjoy it's own heritage.  Wouldn't that be wonderful?  Now with two high-powered powers in the west, a proper EU might begin to work.  Ever consider that?  I'm pessimistic it will ever be more than an economic group, but that's just what is needed.  Bit of a mistake creating a new currency, because that's cultural.  Other than that, think about it...now not one, but two fonts of reason and wisdom out west.  Let's stop thinking of it as bad for Scotland, and start thinking of it as good for Europe.

With Scotland in the lead.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:


I think you a re a left wing twat, which is more right to think so and to call you Jock when many scots use the word is both amusing to say the least, being as I am not claiming Jocks are inferior, sadly PC crap mainly from the left has made such words which were no insults to daft claims of racism, which is why people like you are utterly clueless, so yes you are one thick Jock

Again independence will be a disaster for Scotland, being as the amount of oil has dwindled very fast and continues to do so.

Didge, behave yourself.  I'm a left wing twat too!  Lol.  I happen to be a bit more enthusiastic that even Irn is about the oil.  A new field has just been found in Scotland's near back yard, and it could turn Scotland into a new oil mecca...that's how big it is.

Let's go back to where you were wishing England could regain and re-enjoy it's own heritage.  Wouldn't that be wonderful?  Now with two high-powered powers in the west, a proper EU might begin to work.  Ever consider that?  I'm pessimistic it will ever be more than an economic group, but that's just what is needed.  Bit of a mistake creating a new currency, because that's cultural.  Other than that, think about it...now not one, but two fonts of reason and wisdom out west.  Let's stop thinking of it as bad for Scotland, and start thinking of it as good for Europe.

With Scotland in the lead.

lol you are left wing, but I do not think you are a twat, with Irn I do, you can see the logical argument in many debates, he does not and never does.
As I say I am all for any independence but the claims this is going to be a bed of roses for Scotland is very much a myth.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Didge, behave yourself.  I'm a left wing twat too!  Lol.  I happen to be a bit more enthusiastic that even Irn is about the oil.  A new field has just been found in Scotland's near back yard, and it could turn Scotland into a new oil mecca...that's how big it is.

Let's go back to where you were wishing England could regain and re-enjoy it's own heritage.  Wouldn't that be wonderful?  Now with two high-powered powers in the west, a proper EU might begin to work.  Ever consider that?  I'm pessimistic it will ever be more than an economic group, but that's just what is needed.  Bit of a mistake creating a new currency, because that's cultural.  Other than that, think about it...now not one, but two fonts of reason and wisdom out west.  Let's stop thinking of it as bad for Scotland, and start thinking of it as good for Europe.

With Scotland in the lead.

lol you are left wing, but I do not think you are a twat, with Irn I do, you can see the logical argument in many debates, he does not and never does.
As I say I am all for any independence but the claims this is going to be a bed of roses for Scotland is very much a myth.

Irn is doin' all right. So are you.

Think of the possibilities. When did a Scotsman or an Englishman ever shirk from a challenge? I'm personally thinkin' that this may be the one way to save Europe from the Mediterranean nations, for whom nothing ever seems to go right.

The euro is undervalued for some while being overvalued for others creating the problems we are seeing and helping Germany considerably...

Tommy Monk wrote:Also, UKIP did better in Scotland than SNP in this years EU elections.


And I keep hearing the claim that more money will be spent on services post independence which means higher taxes, but also business rates will be lowered, so you know that means all the extra taxes being levied directly on the Scottish people through income tax.....


So are Scots going to be better off???


Or just finding less in their pockets As the extra tax demands start coming???



Because on top of that, this whole split up is going to cost an absolute fortune!!!



And Scots will be expected to pay for all that too!!!






And ignore dodgey Didge... think he's been on the piss last couple days....

Tommy, the Scottish government has always run a tight fiscal budget better than any Westminster government has ever done and I doubt they would fail to any great degree in what they say about their spending plans.
But a lot depends on what the outcome of negotiations that would take place in the event of a 'yes' vote in September.
You will find a battery of economists lining up on both sides of the fence to claim that they have it all worked out so it comes down to who do you believe.
One thing I am certain of is that Scotland is well able to go it alone and be successful without us being any worse off than we already are at the moment.
Time will tell really but I suspect that it isn't going to happen because there is now too much history between the countries of the UK in cross border relationships and marriages. You really can't even tell if your next door neighbour is a Scot, English, Welsh or Irish until they open their mouth and speak and you detect a dialect that gives you a clue.
The pull of the Union is now too strong for so many and I'm afraid we're stuck with you Sassenachs forever

Rock on

Tommy Monk wrote:As I keep saying, Scotland will have to join as A new member and be subject to all the latest rules and follow the criteria set out for new members.


And if IT's such a benefit to be in, then Scotland won't be able to refuse.



Or what will be grounds for refusal to join?



You see, Scotland can't really argue for much because it all has to be approved by all the other 28 member countries and As I said before, I can't see any of The latest joiners being happy about Scotland getting a better deal than they have had to subscribe to.



Scotland is part of The UK, And it is the UK that is a member.


Scotland leaves UK then it is a new applicant in its own right.


Separate means separate.

Read the link I gave you and you will see that the remaining part of the UK may have to do the same.

Imagine that!!!

Irn Bru wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Also, UKIP did better in Scotland than SNP in this years EU elections.
And I keep hearing the claim that more money will be spent on services post independence which means higher taxes, but also business rates will be lowered, so you know that means all the extra taxes being levied directly on the Scottish people through income tax.....
So are Scots going to be better off???
Or just finding less in their pockets As the extra tax demands start coming???
Because on top of that, this whole split up is going to cost an absolute fortune!!!
And Scots will be expected to pay for all that too!!!
And ignore dodgey Didge... think he's been on the piss last couple days....

Tommy, the Scottish government has always run a tight fiscal budget better than any Westminster government has ever done and I doubt they would fail to any great degree in what they say about their spending plans.
But a lot depends on what the outcome of negotiations that would take place in the event of a 'yes' vote in September.
You will find a battery of economists lining up on both sides of the fence to claim that they have it all worked out so it comes down to who do you believe.
One thing I am certain of is that Scotland is well able to go it alone and be successful without us being any worse off than we already are at the moment.
Time will tell really but I suspect that it isn't going to happen because there is now too much history between the countries of the UK in cross border relationships and marriages. You really can't even tell if your next door neighbour is a Scot, English, Welsh or Irish until they open their mouth and speak and you detect a dialect that gives you a clue.
The pull of the Union is now too strong for so many and I'm afraid we're stuck with you Sassenachs forever
Rock on

I think you might be right there!!!





Because it works.


I think you'll find those economists and others on both sides are fitting their arguments to suit their wishes on the independence somewhat.


I am being a little more objective and impartial.


I believe in independence for the whole of UK away from Europe.


I believe our sovereign parliament should be paramount And in The right to complete self determination and right to make all our rules, regulations and laws here in our own parliament and by our democratically elected and accountable representatives.


I also believe that if Scotland want to go their own way then again that is up to them And fair enough.


The points I've made are how I genuinely see things, not because I'm trying to put across a persuasive argument against independence.



I don't think that The remaining UK would have to rejoin as A new member.


But I do think the break up of The UK is in The EUs interests And that is the underlying reason what this is all about.


I don't trust Salmond.


I don't think he is working in The interests of Scotland, I think he is working in The interests of The EU.



And I independence was chosen and the UK also had to re join EU as new member and be subject to loads more new requirements and EU bullshit then that kind of proves my beliefs.

Tommy, I could not put it better myself!

Thank you nicko.... I thought you weren't interested it tIis thread...?

Tommy I read most, some I agree with, some I don't.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Also, UKIP did better in Scotland than SNP in this years EU elections.
And I keep hearing the claim that more money will be spent on services post independence which means higher taxes, but also business rates will be lowered, so you know that means all the extra taxes being levied directly on the Scottish people through income tax.....
So are Scots going to be better off???
Or just finding less in their pockets As the extra tax demands start coming???
Because on top of that, this whole split up is going to cost an absolute fortune!!!
And Scots will be expected to pay for all that too!!!
And ignore dodgey Didge... think he's been on the piss last couple days....

Tommy, the Scottish government has always run a tight fiscal budget better than any Westminster government has ever done and I doubt they would fail to any great degree in what they say about their spending plans.
But a lot depends on what the outcome of negotiations that would take place in the event of a 'yes' vote in September.
You will find a battery of economists lining up on both sides of the fence to claim that they have it all worked out so it comes down to who do you believe.
One thing I am certain of is that Scotland is well able to go it alone and be successful without us being any worse off than we already are at the moment.
Time will tell really but I suspect that it isn't going to happen because there is now too much history between the countries of the UK in cross border relationships and marriages. You really can't even tell if your next door neighbour is a Scot, English, Welsh or Irish until they open their mouth and speak and you detect a dialect that gives you a clue.
The pull of the Union is now too strong for so many and I'm afraid we're stuck with you Sassenachs forever
Rock on

I think you might be right there!!!





Because it works.


I think you'll find those economists and others on both sides are fitting their arguments to suit their wishes on the independence somewhat.


I am being a little more objective and impartial.


I believe in independence for the whole of UK away from Europe.


I believe our sovereign parliament should be paramount And in The right to complete self determination and right to make all our rules, regulations and laws here in our own parliament and by our democratically elected and accountable representatives.


I also believe that if Scotland want to go their own way then again that is up to them And fair enough.


The points I've made are how I genuinely see things, not because I'm trying to put across a persuasive argument against independence.



I don't think that The remaining UK would have to rejoin as A new member.


But I do think the break up of The UK is in The EUs interests And that is the underlying reason what this is all about.


I don't trust Salmond.


I don't think he is working in The interests of Scotland, I think he is working in The interests of The EU.



And I independence was chosen and the UK also had to re join EU as new member and be subject to loads more new requirements and EU bullshit then that kind of proves my beliefs.

Yep, that's what we're getting Tommy. - a referendum. Now that's something you would give your eye teeth for.

That's what we are getting and it was a manifesto commitment of the SNP and therefore part of the reason why they were voted in as a government.

Now you can't get much more democratic than that.

And if you read that link again you will see who it was that said that the remaining part of the UK may have to go back to scratch as well. So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. And after all you may also get a referendum as well.

Irn, with respect mate, you aren't getting that at all as the plan is to join straight up to the EU as a new member, subject to all the latest EU rules and regulations this would impose, and lose all the special arrangements and opt outs etc that you currently enjoy as being part of UK.



Plus if what you say is true, this will also plunge the rest of UK into the same predicament where we also have to re join as a new member and also have to be much worse off than we already are as we lose all our opt outs and rebate and what's left of our sovereignty too!!!



The winner of The break up of UK is totally the EU.



Please read the rest of my post.....






I believe our sovereign parliament should be paramount And in The right to complete self determination and right to make all our rules, regulations and laws here in our own parliament and by our democratically elected and accountable representatives.


I also believe that if Scotland want to go their own way then again that is up to them And fair enough.


The points I've made are how I genuinely see things, not because I'm trying to put across a persuasive argument against independence.



I don't think that The remaining UK would have to rejoin as A new member.


But I do think the break up of The UK is in The EUs interests And that is the underlying reason what this is all about.


I don't trust Salmond.


I don't think he is working in The interests of Scotland, I think he is working in The interests of The EU.



And if independence was chosen and the UK also had to re join EU as new member and be subject to loads more new requirements and EU bullshit then that kind of proves my beliefs.




How are Scottish gaining anything when the result will be a weaker Scotland immediately joining up to and more controlled by EU??



Then how will a subsequently weaker and more controlled by the EU rest of UK be any help to anyone either???



That is why I say I think it is all an EU plot just to weaken the UK, especially as it increasingly looks like we want out.


Look at the current problems with EU and euro....


Currently the EU is in economic crisis, and the EU and the euro is the cause.


The one size fits all currency is too inflexible to suit all the different European countries and their vastly different economies.


We have seen that it is overvalued for some and under valued for others, with Germany greatly benefiting from this imbalance making their costs much cheaper and goods cheaper and more competitive, boosting growth and economy, exports etc as it is all done much cheaper through this currency value imbalance than otherwise would be.


While for other countries this currency has been over valued for their currency making things more expensive and less competitive and sucking out growth and competitiveness And weakening trade etc.



Germany has been profiting from this up until now, but today we see that as the weaker nations are all spent out, Germany's source of growth which relied on this has also run out, it's been sucked dry, and Germany have themselves announced negative forecasts, negative growth and even started to see negative interest rates.


In fact it is now more profitable to put the money in The ECB to get a zero interest return.


Here's a link I found quickly to try to explain....


http://economicstudents.com/2012/02/the-euro-crisis/


There are more in depth and informative sources if you care to look further.



Splitting up the UK will not only cost us both a fortune in bureaucracy and negotiations and legal wrangles, at a time where money is already tight.


But will also mean we all lose more sovereignty, powers, control to the EU.


And will then also mean that we are dragged further into propping up other EU economies and losing any financial advantages we might have had we stayed as we are and kept our collective distances with our current EU obligations.



Quite simply, we are better off as we are.



If Scotland goes independent (which is double speak for less independent as will be totally engulfed by the EU).....


It will be like jumping out of The frying pan and into the fire..... which will then drag the rest of us in too...!

I don't trust Salmond.


I don't think he is working in The interests of Scotland, I think he is working in The interests of The EU.



And if independence was chosen and the UK also had to re join EU as new member and be subject to loads more new requirements and EU bullshit then that kind of proves my beliefs.







Thing is Irn, although I see myself as English, you as Scottish, as well as others being Welsh or Northern Irish etc...


With other regions and places, towns and cities having their unique identities, accents and local characteristics and charm etc ....


I see us all as being the same, equal, united, with our collective identity being British!!!



It works.


It has made us one of if not the most successful nation on the planet.



We are one of The largest economies in The world today which is a big achievement considering our size and number.



With influence and respect throughout the world.



Probably because all the arguments have been had And resolved many decade even centuries in The past And we have been able to just get on together and work together in The interest of us all.



You know what they say.... if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.....!

Tommy Monk wrote:Irn, with respect mate, you aren't getting that at all as the plan is to join straight up to the EU as a new member, subject to all the latest EU rules and regulations this would impose, and lose all the special arrangements and opt outs etc that you currently enjoy as being part of UK.



Plus if what you say is true, this will also plunge the rest of UK into the same predicament where we also have to re join as a new member and also have to be much worse off than we already are as we lose all our opt outs and rebate and what's left of our sovereignty too!!!



The winner of The break up of UK is totally the EU.



Please read the rest of my post.....






I believe our sovereign parliament should be paramount And in The right to complete self determination and right to make all our rules, regulations and laws here in our own parliament and by our democratically elected and accountable representatives.


I also believe that if Scotland want to go their own way then again that is up to them And fair enough.


The points I've made are how I genuinely see things, not because I'm trying to put across a persuasive argument against independence.



I don't think that The remaining UK would have to rejoin as A new member.


But I do think the break up of The UK is in The EUs interests And that is the underlying reason what this is all about.


I don't trust Salmond.


I don't think he is working in The interests of Scotland, I think he is working in The interests of The EU.



And if independence was chosen and the UK also had to re join EU as new member and be subject to loads more new requirements and EU bullshit then that kind of proves my beliefs.




How are Scottish gaining anything when the result will be a weaker Scotland immediately joining up to and more controlled by EU??



Then how will a subsequently weaker and more controlled by the EU rest of UK be any help to anyone either???



That is why I say I think it is all an EU plot just to weaken the UK, especially as it increasingly looks like we want out.


Look at the current problems with EU and euro....


Currently the EU is in economic crisis, and the EU and the euro is the cause.


The one size fits all currency is too inflexible to suit all the different European countries and their vastly different economies.


We have seen that it is overvalued for some and under valued for others, with Germany greatly benefiting from this imbalance making their costs much cheaper and goods cheaper and more competitive, boosting growth and economy, exports etc as it is all done much cheaper through this currency value imbalance than otherwise would be.


While for other countries this currency has been over valued for their currency making things more expensive and less competitive and sucking out growth and competitiveness And weakening trade etc.



Germany has been profiting from this up until now, but today we see that as the weaker nations are all spent out, Germany's source of growth which relied on this has also run out, it's been sucked dry, and Germany have themselves announced negative forecasts, negative growth and even started to see negative interest rates.


In fact it is now more profitable to put the money in The ECB to get a zero interest return.


Here's a link I found quickly to try to explain....


http://economicstudents.com/2012/02/the-euro-crisis/


There are more in depth and informative sources if you care to look further.



Splitting up the UK will not only cost us both a fortune in bureaucracy and negotiations and legal wrangles, at a time where money is already tight.


But will also mean we all lose more sovereignty, powers, control to the EU.


And will then also mean that we are dragged further into propping up other EU economies and losing any financial advantages we might have had we stayed as we are and kept our collective distances with our current EU obligations.



Quite simply, we are better off as we are.



If Scotland goes independent (which is double speak for less independent as will be totally engulfed by the EU).....


It will be like jumping out of The frying pan and into the fire..... which will then drag the rest of us in too...!

I read it all Tommy. The intentions of the SNP to have a referendum and what that involved in relation to the EU was always clear and it was no secret. That was all in the SNP manifesto and that was part of the reason why they were voted into government in Scotland.

Everything else is up for negotiation and no-one can predict what will happen or that Scotland or the UK will not continue to get all the benefits that they have now.

Like I say - it's not going to happen anyway so don't worry about it and just try and concentrate on making sure that Dave doesn't squirm out of his promise to have a referendum in 2017. He'll be backing staying in and so will Labour and the LibDems and the UKIP vote won't even get more than a few MPs at most. You're screwed whatever happens.

You added to that after I had started to reply but what I said still stands.

The game is up.

I posted some more above in edit.....




I don't know what you mean by 'the game's up'...

Tommy Monk wrote:I posted some more above in edit.....




I don't know what you mean by 'the game's up'...

I know. No worries I just wanted you to know that I didn't ignore what else you had added.

I didn't mean the game was up for you personally. Just that the game is up on the UK ever leaving the EU.

Peter Kellner explains why.

There's little chance of Britain leaving the EU

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/07/britain-eu-referendum

Peter Kellner is president of YouGov.

I don't think any renegotiation can deliver enough to warrant people wishing to stay in.




Free movement is non negotiable and one of The main things people mantgmg an end to.



So that will be the end of that.

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't think any renegotiation can deliver enough to warrant people wishing to stay in.




Free movement is non negotiable and one of The main things people mantgmg an end to.



So that will be the end of that.

It's all buttoned up Tommy and there's no way out. Even if Cameron's referendum returned an out vote it will not be binding on parliament.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2352271/Camerons-flagship-EU-referendum-Bill-hit-warning-legally-binding-government-just-ignore-it.html

So we are in The clutches of a dictatorship and democracy is dead?


Is that what you're saying?



Are you happy about that?

Tommy Monk wrote:So we are in The clutches of a dictatorship and democracy is dead?

Is that what you're saying?

Are you happy about that?

Tommy, there's a difference between a factual and a normative question.

Fact = the way it is.

Normative = the way it should be.

Just because something is a fact doesn't mean that you are "happy about that."

You frame the question as "a dictatorship." Isn't that a bit fraudulent? Why don't you work on that case.

I'm asking the questions, don't tell me what I can or cannot ask or how I should or shouldn't be wording my questions.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:So we are in The clutches of a dictatorship and democracy is dead?

Is that what you're saying?

Are you happy about that?

Tommy, there's a difference between a factual and a normative question.

Fact = the way it is.

Normative = the way it should be.

Just because something is a fact doesn't mean that you are "happy about that."

You frame the question as "a dictatorship."  Isn't that a bit fraudulent?  Why don't you work on that case.

Love it Quill.



Actually Tommy, you will find Quill is actually trying to help you debate better and all joking aside that is what he would love to have with you.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy, there's a difference between a factual and a normative question.

Fact = the way it is.

Normative = the way it should be.

Just because something is a fact doesn't mean that you are "happy about that."

You frame the question as "a dictatorship."  Isn't that a bit fraudulent?  Why don't you work on that case.

Love it Quill.  



Actually Tommy, you will find Quill is actually trying to help you debate better and all joking aside that is what he would love to have with you.

Thank you Didge.

Donno why I do it. It's like the urge to correct spelling, too. Lol.

An American telling me how to speak English.....



Just more deflection from the actual content And implications of The questions.

Tommy Monk wrote:An American telling me how to speak English.....



Just more deflection from the actual content And implications of The questions.

Haha...yes, I'm afraid it's gotten that bad, Tom. In fact, it's worse. I'm correcting your logic.

I suppose it's the teacher in me. I see a bad argument, and I want to correct it.

How can three questions be bad logic?


They are only questions.... not statements or promotion of theory or formulative argument or suggestive reasoning.



Just questions.

Tommy Monk wrote:So we are in The clutches of a dictatorship and democracy is dead?


Is that what you're saying?



Are you happy about that?

No, you have choices Tommy. Just unfortunate for you that none of them will see the UK out of the EU. Get your soap box and get cracking - that's allowed.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:So we are in The clutches of a dictatorship and democracy is dead?

Is that what you're saying?

Are you happy about that?

Tommy, there's a difference between a factual and a normative question.

Fact = the way it is.

Normative = the way it should be.

Just because something is a fact doesn't mean that you are "happy about that."

You frame the question as "a dictatorship."  Isn't that a bit fraudulent?  Why don't you work on that case.

Love it Quill.  



Actually Tommy, you will find Quill is actually trying to help you debate better and all joking aside that is what he would love to have with you.

Actually I think it's you that would benefit from words that you think would help Tommy on how to debate and I'll show you why...

Didge wrote:1Utter babble, oil has diminished for many years and the fact is many companies have stated, they will leave Scotland if they gain independance, where they are very reliant, because Scotland will have to gain entry into the EU
You are one thick Jock as seen, because as seen Scotland gaining independence will be their downfall, but you buy the gullible crap you read.
Never mind mate, you will learn one day, even Gordon Brown bashes your hopes

And then

Didge wrote:1I think you a re a left wing twat, which is more right to think so and to call you Jock when many scots use the word is both amusing to say the least, being as I am not claiming Jocks are inferior, sadly PC crap mainly from the left has made such words which were no insults to daft claims of racism, which is why people like you are utterly clueless, so yes you are one thick Jock

Again independence will be a disaster for Scotland, being as the amount of oil has dwindled very fast and continues to do so.

I don't agree with what Tommy says on other threads by a long way but at least on this one he has not resorted to that sort of stuff.

Irn at least the Scots will be able to have the Thistle on the threepenny bit again and we will loose the Barnett formula once and for all.