English Now Taught As Foreign Language In English School

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:20 pm

25th March 2014

Please discuss.

A Leeds school is to teach English as a second language to all its pupils, including native English speakers, in an attempt to tackle poor grammar.

City of Leeds School head teacher Georgiana Sale said many of the school's native English speaking pupils did not possess the "formal" language skills to do well at GCSE level.

She said some pupils lacked knowledge of grammar but were "not illiterate".

The school has 314 pupils from about 50 countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-26731999

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:22 pm

Is the mission almost accomplished?

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:23 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:25th March 2014

Please discuss.

A Leeds school is to teach English as a second language to all its pupils, including native English speakers, in an attempt to tackle poor grammar.

City of Leeds School head teacher Georgiana Sale said many of the school's native English speaking pupils did not possess the "formal" language skills to do well at GCSE level.

She said some pupils lacked knowledge of grammar but were "not illiterate".

The school has 314 pupils from about 50 countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-26731999

sounds right....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:30 pm

Excellent news this, just think 50 different cultures and languages British children will get to learn about, that is a blessing to be honest, meeting so many different people from all over the world, all learning together English, thus learning about them also

Great news

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:34 pm

Didge wrote:Excellent news this, just think 50 different cultures and languages British children will get to learn about, that is a blessing to be honest, meeting so many different people from all over the world, all learning together English, thus learning about them also

Great news

Don't be daft - two or three languages yes, kids can pick them up - but over 50? It must be like the tower of babel! It'll just hold the kids back.

by gerber Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:36 pm

Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:37 pm

We've had ESL in U.S. public schools for decades, what's the big deal?

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:39 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Didge wrote:Excellent news this, just think 50 different cultures and languages British children will get to learn about, that is a blessing to be honest, meeting so many different people from all over the world, all learning together English, thus learning about them also

Great news

Don't be daft - two or three languages yes, kids can pick them up - but over 50? It must be like the tower of babel! It'll just hold the kids back.

Nope I think it is great, if she thought it would hold kids back she would not have done it, so there is no evidence to your claim, again this is brilliant, kids can learn so much from so many cultures

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:39 pm

gerber wrote:Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

Because it gives them something over you.

Makes people like you feel "pushed out".

by gerber Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:40 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
gerber wrote:Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

Because it gives them something over you.

Makes people like you feel "pushed out".

Ummnnnnn Just bloody irrated.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:40 pm

gerber wrote:Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

Poor stereotype Gerber, sorry and I have not met anyone second generation let alone more that cannot speak English

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:41 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
gerber wrote:Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

Because it gives them something over you.

Makes people like you feel "pushed out".

have you asked the kids if they feel like this, or are you going off your own views, being as they are so prejudiced?

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:44 pm

Two points to note from this:

The Ofsted report concluded the school "requires improvement".

and

"A lot of them actually need teaching English because they are not native English speakers.

"The other children who are native English speakers have not got a formal enough level of English that will get them that A-star grade in history or that A-grade in science."

Ms Sale said the move was also a reaction to Education Secretary Michael Gove's renewed focus on grammar, spelling and punctuation in the national curriculum.

"I don't think City of Leeds is unusual. What we're seeing is a change in the system of examinations towards a much more formal level of English."

So clearly if they were separate before the level of grammar was poor and needs improving, thus a story about nothing mad to look more than it is

by gerber Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:52 pm

Didge wrote:
gerber wrote:Why do Indians speak English in India, Pakistanis speak English in Pakistan and yet here they don't, even though many are third or fourth generation ?

Poor stereotype Gerber, sorry and I have not met anyone second generation let alone more that cannot speak English

Really, maybe you need to get out more..........................

Maybe they can but refuse to do so in the presence of English persons just to make them feel uncomfortable...... Been to Leicester recently ?

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:55 pm

gerber wrote:
Didge wrote:

Poor stereotype Gerber, sorry and I have not met anyone second generation let alone more that cannot speak English

Really, maybe you need to get out more..........................

Maybe they can but refuse to do so in the presence of English persons just to make them feel uncomfortable...... Been to Leicester recently ?

I lived and grew up in London with second and third generation ethnic groups, that is getting out more than you can imagine and again all second or more generations could speak excellent English, being as it was their first language.
So again if it is foreign born people you speak of then no doubt English is not their first language but to claim second generation people do not is absurd Gerber
Again it matters little to me whether a person cannot speak English as their first language only that they can understand English and speak it. What you have to ask, is why it bothers anyone, there is no reason to get annoyed over someone speaking English as their second language, to think there is then again is absurd

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:59 pm

Didge wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:

Don't be daft - two or three languages yes, kids can pick them up - but over 50? It must be like the tower of babel! It'll just hold the kids back.

Nope I think it is great, if she thought it would hold kids back she would not have done it, so there is no evidence to your claim, again this is brilliant, kids can learn so much from so many cultures

Schools cannot cope when English is a foreign tongue

The headteacher has said that even the 15 per cent of pupils who were born in Britain need the classes because their language skills are so poor. The problem is even more acute for the rest of the children who come from 55 different countries and between them speak 50 different languages.

For all its perceived failings the school – which last year posted the poorest GCSE results in Leeds – has been left in an impossible position by rampant immigration from eastern Europe and the rest of the world.

Filling our classrooms with pupils who cannot communicate with the staff and children around them is desperately unfair. The children who do speak English fluently are clearly going to find their time in education far less beneficial if they are forced to sit through lessons tailored for others whose communication skills are years behind...

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/466720/Schools-cannot-cope-when-English-is-a-foreign-language

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:12 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Didge wrote:

Nope I think it is great, if she thought it would hold kids back she would not have done it, so there is no evidence to your claim, again this is brilliant, kids can learn so much from so many cultures

Schools cannot cope when English is a foreign tongue

The headteacher has said that even the 15 per cent of pupils who were born in Britain need the classes because their language skills are so poor. The problem is even more acute for the rest of the children who come from 55 different countries and between them speak 50 different languages.

For all its perceived failings the school – which last year posted the poorest GCSE results in Leeds – has been left in an impossible position by rampant immigration from eastern Europe and the rest of the world.

Filling our classrooms with pupils who cannot communicate with the staff and children around them is desperately unfair. The children who do speak English fluently are clearly going to find their time in education far less beneficial if they are forced to sit through lessons tailored for others whose communication skills are years behind...

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/466720/Schools-cannot-cope-when-English-is-a-foreign-language

Wow daily Express, where is the concise evidence to back this up from so many schools Tess?
That is the take by the Express not the head teacher

Again what did the Head also say about the English pupils?

I find an anti immigrant article by the Express laughable as seen it left out much else that was said

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:22 pm

Didge wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:

Schools cannot cope when English is a foreign tongue

The headteacher has said that even the 15 per cent of pupils who were born in Britain need the classes because their language skills are so poor. The problem is even more acute for the rest of the children who come from 55 different countries and between them speak 50 different languages.

For all its perceived failings the school – which last year posted the poorest GCSE results in Leeds – has been left in an impossible position by rampant immigration from eastern Europe and the rest of the world.

Filling our classrooms with pupils who cannot communicate with the staff and children around them is desperately unfair. The children who do speak English fluently are clearly going to find their time in education far less beneficial if they are forced to sit through lessons tailored for others whose communication skills are years behind...

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/466720/Schools-cannot-cope-when-English-is-a-foreign-language

Wow daily Express, where is the concise evidence to back this up from so many schools Tess?
That is the take by the Express not the head teacher

Again what did the Head also say about the English pupils?

I find an anti immigrant article by the Express laughable as seen it left out much else that was said

The evidence is simple common sense! How can you teach kids, say, maths, if they can't understand the questions? Plus, you'll note the school's result are pretty much some of the lowest in the country! I'd say that's evidence enough wouldn't you? And it's not "anti-immigrant" - as I said, two or three languages are good because the kids can learn them early. 50 languages though is impossible.

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:23 pm

Again, U.S. schools are coping just fine with having taught ESL for decades, this is more ninny-winny bullshit.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:26 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Again, U.S. schools are coping just fine with having taught ESL for decades, this is more ninny-winny bullshit.

But how many languages are involved in one school in the US Ben? Not many I expect - certainly not over 50 at one time!

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:27 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Again, U.S. schools are coping just fine with having taught ESL for decades, this is more ninny-winny bullshit.
But how many languages are involved in one school in the US Ben? Not many I expect - certainly not over 50 at one time!

I don't think they're talking about teaching 50 different languages -- in the U.S., you don't have to speak anymore than English to be able to teach ESL classes.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Didge wrote:

Wow daily Express, where is the concise evidence to back this up from so many schools Tess?
That is the take by the Express not the head teacher

Again what did the Head also say about the English pupils?

I find an anti immigrant article by the Express laughable as seen it left out much else that was said

The evidence is simple common sense! How can you teach kids, say, maths, if they can't understand the questions? Plus, you'll note the school's result are pretty much some of the lowest in the country! I'd say that's evidence enough wouldn't you? And it's not "anti-immigrant" - as I said, two or three languages are good because the kids can learn them early. 50 languages though is impossible.

No its not when you read what she stated, so you like the Express are making assumptions

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:24 pm

so whats going to be taught as "first language" ...peshwari? urdu? pashtun?

arabic????

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:28 pm

Oh FGS!!!!! What a load of bullshit. Do you, or do you not, want immigrants to speak English? And we have schools in other countries that are English speaking.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:31 pm

There are lots of different languages in the world, lots of different people and we are all going to end up mixed together. It's about time people got over it. Hopefully when the melting pot has worked all this rubbish will finish and people will realise that we are all human beings trying to find our way through life as best we can.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:41 pm

you can hide in corners all you like but here's the point...its going to be taught to all???

"A Leeds school is to teach English as a second language to all its pupils, including native English speakers, in an attempt to tackle poor grammar."

now why is there a problem...I'll tell you why.....
Either the school has shite teachers or it is expending too much of its time mollycodling and kowtowing to the needs of its immigrant population to teach the "natives" decent english in ITS NORMAL english classes.....

HOWEVER...IF the problem is due to lack of student engagement then this latest PC excercise will prove futile in its stated aim of "improving grammar"

the biggest problem has been the ~~liberalist~~progressive interference and influence on education....
whereby good english did NOT get you marked down in say science assignments (it would have in my day). The same mentality that almost wiped competitive sports out of our schools because "there shouldnt be losers....." The same mentality that continues to condone "gangsta talk, and chav speak" and doesnt condemn the constant use of "txt spch"

cretins....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:45 pm

Sassy wrote:There are lots of different languages in the world, lots of different people and we are all going to end up mixed together. It's about time people got over it. Hopefully when the melting pot has worked all this rubbish will finish and people will realise that we are all human beings trying to find our way through life as best we can.

Now you are sounding like didge....just how do you suppose THAT is going to happen...ALWAYS there will be those who have greater power than others...Always there will be those who WANT greater power than others, and ALWAYS there will be those that allow themselves to stop thinking and be manipulated by their peers into being battle drones for a cause. And always there will be those who bleat "there's a better way"...with no idea of how to get there....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:47 pm

They are teaching english as a second language to all because the english kids seem to have very bad grammer and it will help them. Why the hell does it matter if it means all the kids learn good english, which will help the immigrant children integrate properly. Really, I just don't get all the angst.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:54 pm

Sassy wrote:They are teaching english as a second language to all because the english kids seem to have very bad grammer and it will help them. Why the hell does it matter if it means all the kids learn good english, which will help the immigrant children integrate properly. Really, I just don't get all the angst.

It matters because...the native english kids SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO A GOOD STANDARD in the first place..In their normal english lessons!!!!!!!...the question IS ....WHY has this not happened

I repeat .....
Either the school has shite teachers or it is expending too much of its time mollycodling and kowtowing to the needs of its immigrant population to teach the "natives" decent english in ITS NORMAL english classes.....

HOWEVER...IF the problem is due to lack of student engagement then this latest PC excercise will prove futile in its stated aim of "improving grammar"

the biggest problem has been the ~~liberalist~~ progressive interference and influence on education....
whereby good english did NOT get you marked down in say science assignments (it would have in my day). The same mentality that almost wiped competitive sports out of our schools because "there shouldnt be losers....." The same mentality that continues to condone "gangsta talk, and chav speak" and doesnt condemn the constant use of "txt spch"

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:56 pm

But of course the ~~liberalist~~ progressive will blame "lazy english kids" for this, rather than own up to the fact that the true cause lies elsewhere.......

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:58 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:so whats going to be taught as "first language" ...peshwari? urdu? pashtun?

arabic????

You teach ESL to kids for whom English isn't their first language (the language learned from infancy) or to kids who grew up with English but speak a thick dialect to teach them the standard version of the language. It's not a big deal, and it's really helpful.

Teachers in ESL classes don't speak the native languages of their pupils as a rule (generally counter-productive) and don't have to be able to, and they can work with a classroom of 20 kids, each of whom speaks a different language, to teach English with the immersion technique.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:02 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:so whats going to be taught as "first language" ...peshwari? urdu? pashtun?

arabic????

You teach ESL to kids for whom English isn't their first language (the language learned from infancy) or to kids who grew up with English but speak a thick dialect to teach them the standard version of the language. It's not a big deal, and it's really helpful.

EXCEPT....this is not being done as an excercise in correcting poor dialect, but to correct a general failure in English...i.e grammar.
which indicates that the "normal" classes have failed the native speaking kids....WHY.....

Teachers in ESL classes don't speak the native languages of their pupils as a rule (generally counter-productive) and don't have to be able to, and they can work with a classroom of 20 kids, each of whom speaks a different language, to teach English with the immersion technique.

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:06 pm

Because teachers don't smack kids for saying "bovva"?

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:11 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Because teachers don't smack kids for saying "bovva"?

You, my friend are turning into a didge.....

however ......40 years ago, poor english would have had you marked down in ANY subject....and too many markings down for bad english would have got you an interview with the head of the english department.

SO....~~liberalist~~ progressive interference with teaching, failure of "normal english classes for native speakers....because........

Take your time I know its painful for you to admit the truth..............

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:15 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Because teachers don't smack kids for saying "bovva"?

You, my friend are turning into a didge.....

however ......40 years ago, poor english would have had you marked down in ANY subject....and too many markings down for bad english would have got you an interview with the head of the english department.

SO....~~liberalist~~ progressive interference with teaching, failure of "normal english classes for native speakers....because........

Take your time I know its painful for you to admit the truth..............

I actually agree with you that proper English should be reinforced throughout a students' classes, it's a good teaching technique. I don't think it's part of any conspiracy, though.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:28 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

You, my friend are turning into a didge.....

however ......40 years ago, poor english would have had you marked down in ANY subject....and too many markings down for bad english would have got you an interview with the head of the english department.

SO....~~liberalist~~ progressive interference with teaching, failure of "normal english classes for native speakers....because........

Take your time I know its painful for you to admit the truth..............

I actually agree with you that proper English should be reinforced throughout a students' classes, it's a good teaching technique. I don't think it's part of any conspiracy, though.

You have NO idea of what the ~~liberalist~~ progressive mindset has done to education in this country Ben....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:31 pm

This supposed progressive problem, how come our kids get tested and pressured more now than they ever did? It isn't the progressives that are the problem, it's those determined not to let teachers teach and to have exams for 4 year olds!

by Ben Reilly Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:38 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

You, my friend are turning into a didge.....

however ......40 years ago, poor english would have had you marked down in ANY subject....and too many markings down for bad english would have got you an interview with the head of the english department.

SO....~~liberalist~~ progressive interference with teaching, failure of "normal english classes for native speakers....because........

Take your time I know its painful for you to admit the truth..............

I actually agree with you that proper English should be reinforced throughout a students' classes, it's a good teaching technique. I don't think it's part of any conspiracy, though.

You have NO idea of what the ~~liberalist~~ progressive mindset has done to education in this country Ben....

Yeah, every time I express the slightest amount of skepticism that Britain is the toilet some people claim it is, I'm told I don't know a thing about what a toilet Britain is!

Meanwhile, apparently the Conservative government basically overseeing the toilet for the past four years is gaining in the polls as well. So what should that tell me about British voters? ::D::

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:40 pm

tested, and pressured more...and know a hell of a lot less.....what else but such a barmy mess would you expect from a system designed to turn out good little consumers....and nothing else.....None of it is necessary...

the whole idea of assignment based, continuous assessment is ludicrous...and designed to eliminate failure as an option, backed up by "unfailable" GCSE's.
kids should have it quite clear...learn ...learn....learn.....and you have ONE chance at the end of year exam...you either learn, and pass or you dont and you blow it....AND failure should carry life time consequences.....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:40 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

You have NO idea of what the ~~liberalist~~ progressive mindset has done to education in this country Ben....

Yeah, every time I express the slightest amount of skepticism that Britain is the toilet some people claim it is, I'm told I don't know a thing about what a toilet Britain is!

Meanwhile, apparently the Conservative government basically overseeing the toilet for the past four years is gaining in the polls as well. So what should that tell me about British voters? ::D::

read this thread...!!!!!!!!!

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:42 pm

Jesus bloody Christ Victor, failure should carry lifetime consequences at 16?

I don't know what you have been up to recently, but for crying out loud stop it.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:48 pm

Sassy wrote:Jesus bloody Christ Victor, failure should carry lifetime consequences at 16?

I don't know what you have been up to recently, but for crying out loud stop it.

I failed maths at the old CSE level....however I passed physics at "o" level gce...which for some reason also grades you as passed in maths?????

had I not passed the physics...I would have either had to deal with the consequences...OR AT MY OWN EXPENSE later in life redone maths "O" level in order to get on....

In my day, you either passed your grades...and took up FE or a career, or you failed and ended up shovelling shit down the pit or (literally) on a farm somewhere...It was something of an incentive....nowadays there is no incentive and no motivation.....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Oh great, because it was shit for you it has to be shit for kids now?

by Tommy Monk Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:21 pm

Sassy wrote - "This supposed progressive problem, how come our kids get tested and pressured more now than they ever did? It isn't the progressives that are the problem, it's those determined not to let teachers teach and to have exams for 4 year olds!"

Think you answered your own question Sassy....!

Ben wrote - "Yeah, every time I express the slightest amount of skepticism that Britain is the toilet some people claim it is, I'm told I don't know a thing about what a toilet Britain is!

Meanwhile, apparently the Conservative government basically overseeing the toilet for the past four years is gaining in the polls as well. So what should that tell me about British voters?"

After 13 years of the labour govt entrenching itself into the country through their ever increasing & self serving layers of bureaucracy (protection), it takes quite a while to get through and dismantle the barricades, after first crossing the political minefield and booby traps they had left behind (to intentionally inflict maximum damage to the incoming govt, regardless to the harm done to the country at large or the public!), and it takes even longer before the results of any changes are seen.
The problems labour left behind will be felt for a while yet still, but the current govts better results ARE undoubtedly now being seen.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:33 pm

Sassy wrote:Oh great, because it was shit for you it has to be shit for kids now?

BUT...It wasnt shit...at all....I knew I would fail maths at cse...but easily pass physics at O level ...Its called planning..you see.
and the system worked. And its a hell of a lot easier to simply commit facts and figures to memory and LEARN them , than all this "assignment guff" in which you learn nothing but to write pages of waffle (a bit like didge) and yet learn...i.e fully commit to memory NOTHING.

most BY A LONG WAY, of kids these days cant do even simple mental arithmetic, they lack the core facts, the core, number bonds to be able to do it...and this is true of nearly ALL subjects..
Gods teeth, I can work out square (and cube) roots in my head by simple continuous multiplication...I can convert between decimal, binary octal and hexadecimal....in my head....
I can estimate the answers to 99% of "common" arithmetical problems within 95% accuracy in my head. I dont need to use an atlas to identify where major countries lie or their capitals...I KNOW IT....

the list is endless across a huge range of subjects...why do I know these things....because I was taught under a system that hammered home FACTS and FIGURES and then made damn sure you had committed them to memory....

and I'm NOT exceptional....by any means...

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:43 pm

No Victor, the system did not work. There were many kids who didn't pass the 11+ who got shunted into secondary modern schools where at 11 they were told they were already failures and simply stopped bothering. As for the ones who passed, sometimes they passed because they had been given extra tuition and pressured at home, once they got to the grammar school they couldn't keep up, I saw a lot of that.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:47 pm

Well thats what you get for having 11+ and grammar schools....

i went to one of the first (and in its time one of the best) comprehensive schools...

and ...the system worked.....

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:48 pm

at least , it worked far better than the crap we have now...where as I said kids leave school knowing bugger all, except how to do the didge waffle...

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Then why was there all the moaning about them? I think comprehensives work, but when my children were at them, and got great results, all the stuff in the papers was about how bad the comprehensive systems was, saying more or less the same things you are saying now.

by Guest Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:59 pm

Because by then...if your kids are the same age as mine....the "progressives" had totally buggered them. destroying any form of discipline, introducing crazy "teaching ideas" and the system was set up for failure later by the idiotic teaching methods in primary schools...
it was inevitable that the secondary schools would eventually fail....as soon as "table teaching" became the latest lefty fad in primary schools...instead of traditional "sit down shut up and learn" (the 2 times table, the counties of england or whatever) as the kids taught in that scenario had no "learning discipline2 instilled into them...

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