Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

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Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State

By Jonathan Weiler

Since virtually every comment on Hamas in American media includes the assertion that the group’s Charter rejects Israel’s right to exist, it’s worth noting the following from the Likud Platform of 1999:

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

There have been some updates to the platform more recently, reflecting Israel’s withdrawal of settlements from Gaza in 2005. But the Likud Party has *never* in its statements of principles, accepted a Palestinian State. Its electoral partner, Yisrael Beitenu, has likewise categorically rejected the possibility of an independent Palestinian State, insisting that the idea is nothing more than a ploy to facilitate the destruction of Israel.

The Hamas charter, of course, does more than just reject Israel as a sovereign political entity. It’s a vile document that echoes some of the worst anti-Semitic tropes of the modern era. But on the central question of one side denying the other’s legitimacy — it’s hard to ignore the symmetry between Likud – the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – and Hamas.

Some defenders of Israel become indignant at the mention of these realities as scurrilous and spurious because the Likud platform quoted above is just an “old” statement of principles not reflective of the Party’s actions in power. But by that logic, the Hamas Charter, written over 25 years ago, cannot be said to be the sole controlling document of that organization, since much more recent statements and actions by its leadership have, at least some times, included an expressed willingness to pursue a long-term agreement with Israel. Furthermore, Hamas also agreed to join the Palestinian Authority in a unity government that accepts all previous PA agreements with Israel.

Too much political discussion in the United States about Israel/Palestine proceeds from the premise that Palestinians have no other interest than to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Therefore, it is said, well-intentioned Israel has no viable negotiating partner for peace. The political reality on the ground does not conform to such a simple-minded tale of good vs. evil. Israeli hardliners in power have repeatedly rejected any basis for a viable Palestinian state. Indeed, Prime Minister Netanyahu’s qualified statement in support of a two-state solution in 2009 – which his American apologists repeatedly invoke to demonstrate his “moderate” bona fides – was characterized by a member of his own cabinet as “the spin of our lives.” In fact. Likud leaders have said unequivocally that no two-state deal is possible. And just three weeks ago, speaking at a press conference, Netanyahu said:

   “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”

As David Horovitz wrote in The Times of Israel:

   “He wasn’t saying that he doesn’t support a two-state solution. He was saying that it’s impossible. This was not a new, dramatic change of stance by the prime minister. It was a new, dramatic exposition of his long-held stance.”

In other words, no independent Palestinian state. Period. Ever.

Arab leaders are accused *all the time* of making one set of (conciliatory) statements in front of some audiences in English, while revealing their (true) rejectionist feelings in front of others, in Arabic. To the extent that this is true, one could certainly say the same about Netanyahu – relatively conciliatory and reasonable-sounding statements for international audiences. And altogether different rhetoric for internal consumption. Bibi is, after all, a master – like many politicians – at speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

Since Palestine does not exist as a recognized independent state, there is no need for Israel’s rejectionists to call for Palestine’s “destruction.” But the consistent avowals of Israeli leaders – and the plain language of the party platforms that express their parties’ core beliefs – to prevent such a state from coming into being is not substantively different from the expressed desire of the Hamas Charter to reject Israel’s existence.

The beginnings of a more fair and balanced appreciation of the conflict would start with that acknowledgment.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html

Sassy wrote:What you have stated is a load of bollocks, as normal.   You're simply not worth anyone's time Didge, you're a one man Israeli propaganda machine and you wouldn't know the truth if it got up and slapped you.

Build bloody infrastucture you fool when the Israeli's won't let the stuff in to build it with, and then every two years they target it to knock some more down.   You fell out the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Hilarious, so again you are not able to respond to any of my points, just do as you always do and say it is rubbish without anything to back it up, because as seen you have no knowledge on this and have to google anything I challenge you on and as seen, you are screwed here on all my points, as that will not help you.
Israel does allow infrastructure to be built or would you like to see the evidence for where they have had Saudi build homes, shopping centers etc, though is hardly enough when they could have built countless if they had used the money for infrastructure instead of weapons for war, which you ignore at every turn.
Peace is in the hands of the people of Gaza, they though have to take the opportunity to use it and demilitarize, if not, they will self destruct and will only have themselves to blame for this

Excellent Sassy.

Haven't laughed so much for a long time. Are you and arborist as well as an artist ?

gerber wrote:Excellent Sassy.

Haven't laughed so much for a long time.  Are you and arborist as well as an artist ?

Childish things please simple minds eh Gerber.
Hey if all you can do is back posters and not debate points, I am very happy with that, you stick to sucking up to people, as it just makes me smile further, because as seen the more people cannot refute them, it proves how moot and poor their views are.

Enjoy your weekend

 ::D:: 

Didge wrote:

Sassy wrote:Can't you bloody read, the West Bank was attacked, they just don't have the means to fight back.

That is not an offensive but the victims of clashes

You really need to do better than that, where is the same in the West bank?

There is none, this is why your arguments always fall flat


It is also a leftie peace of propaganda crap as well which has no comparability to what is going on in Gaza, proving you have no answer to my points

You are not seriously suggesting that the continued occupation of the West Bank and the restrictions imposed by the Israeli’s on the Palestinian people who are living there as well as the removal of many of them to make way for more Israeli settlements is something that they are happy with and it is to their benefit are you? The Palestinian populations are living under an illegal military occupation against their will which is enforced by the IDF and many of the population are refugees living in camps. The movements of the Palestinians are restricted and their rights have been eroded by an occupation force and that’s an offensive going on every single day that the Israeli’s stay there and expand even further into the West Bank by building even more settlements.

Just victims of clashes are they?

Original Quill wrote:You don't want this conflict to stop, do you Irn?  You want it to go on.  Is this some sort of career for you?  Are book sales a little off?

Oh, I don't mean this local event started by Hamas.  I mean the whole past 60-70 years.  What do you think is going to happen?

Iran and the Islamic community of nations will continue to harass Israel with missiles, and the occasional terrorist bombing or shooting, not to mention the mini-wars..  Israel will systematically crush the conflicts and tighten its grip.  The world will weep and moan, and do nothing.  

GWB, the Republican Neo-Cons and the puppy dog British, have assured that the world community is too cowed to do anything.  Who wants another 10-year war that accomplishes nothing except a $17-trillion debt?

I'm almost to the point where I don't care.  The sooner Iran and Israel get at it, the sooner it will be all over.  Fun to watch, I guess.  But hardly more important than that as long as the participants don't want anything more themselves.

No-one on here wants the conflict to go on but I see that the penny has dropped now and you're getting to the heart of the matter which is the continued occupation that has been going on and which Israel has been expanding over the last 50 years or so. That's what I was focusing on whilst you were beating the drum continuously about Hamas who exist primarily because of that.

If you think that Iran and Israel getting it on would be fun to watch then you seriously need some help. Just nip down to the Southern tip of Israel and grab yourself a seat and you can watch and cheer as the missiles fly in. It's the latest cinema entertainment down there.

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:


That is not an offensive but the victims of clashes

You really need to do better than that, where is the same in the West bank?

There is none, this is why your arguments always fall flat


It is also a leftie peace of propaganda crap as well which has no comparability to what is going on in Gaza, proving you have no answer to my points

You are not seriously suggesting that the continued occupation of the West Bank and the restrictions imposed by the Israeli’s on the Palestinian people who are living there as well as the removal of many of them to make way for more Israeli settlements  is something that they are happy with and it  is to their benefit are you? The Palestinian populations are living under an illegal military occupation against their will which is enforced by the IDF and many of the population are refugees living in camps. The movements of the Palestinians are restricted and their rights have been eroded by an occupation force and that’s an offensive going on every single day that the Israeli’s stay there and expand even further into the West Bank by building even more settlements.

Just victims of clashes are they?

Yes that is their own doing Irn, they went to war, that is the outcome of starting conflicts and losing wars, where there is 6 decades of continued violence against a people where they fail to recognise a UN rulling.
Seems you are suggesting Israel bends over and takes it up the arse from terrorism and violence, you would not expect the Uk to do so and by thus why would you expect Israel to do so.
The settlements are wrong and you avoid every point I have made, more to the point you avoid Palestinians have been the cause behind constant problems within the region for some time.
I would restrict movement too if there had been so many terrorist attacks and conflicts started over 60 years, maybe you can explain why again it has been the Palestinian people who have not excepted a rulling, where they have committed themselves to constant conflict.
I mean the west has done exactly the same and occupied nations that have started conflicts and have done so for decades and displaced millions of its people and we have had no conflict since from Germany
, are you saying we were wrong to occupy them?
The West Bank has the right approach, Hamas has one of war, where Fatah continue to use peace they will gain support

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:You don't want this conflict to stop, do you Irn?  You want it to go on.  Is this some sort of career for you?  Are book sales a little off?

Oh, I don't mean this local event started by Hamas.  I mean the whole past 60-70 years.  What do you think is going to happen?

Iran and the Islamic community of nations will continue to harass Israel with missiles, and the occasional terrorist bombing or shooting, not to mention the mini-wars..  Israel will systematically crush the conflicts and tighten its grip.  The world will weep and moan, and do nothing.  

GWB, the Republican Neo-Cons and the puppy dog British, have assured that the world community is too cowed to do anything.  Who wants another 10-year war that accomplishes nothing except a $17-trillion debt?

I'm almost to the point where I don't care.  The sooner Iran and Israel get at it, the sooner it will be all over.  Fun to watch, I guess.  But hardly more important than that as long as the participants don't want anything more themselves.

No-one on here wants the conflict to go on but I see that the penny has dropped now and you're getting to the heart of the matter which is the continued occupation that has been going on and which Israel has been expanding over the last 50 years or so. That's what I was focusing on whilst you were beating the drum continuously about Hamas who exist primarily because of that.

If you think that Iran and Israel getting it on would be fun to watch then you seriously need some help. Just nip down to the Southern tip of Israel and grab yourself a seat and you can watch and cheer as the missiles fly in. It's the latest cinema entertainment down there.

The UK, USA, Franc and Russia, occupied Germany for decades, because of its history of starting conflicts, yet you seem to think Israel where there is continued conflict from Palestine, should just retreat and allow the problem to continue, that is irresponsible and you would not allow any neighbour next to you to constantly attack your own home, you would use anything in your power to evict those who are causing this problem, because we have extremist doing this, you seem to excuse this logic and that Israel should just tolerate and do nothing after 60 plus years of constant attacks against it? So tell me would you tolerate decades of attacks from a neighbour for 60 years?


Here is your hero:

Jewish Block speaks out in Gaza protest 9th Aug and tells people not to be frightened of being called anti-semetic:



and that there is nothing a Judaism that supports Israel.

Nelson Mandela on supporting Palestine:

Sassy wrote:Jewish Block speaks out in Gaza protest 9th Aug and tells people not to be frightened of being called anti-semetic:



and that there is nothing a Judaism that supports Israel.

What an absurd thing to say and makes no sense, a Judaism?
Can you not form any views yourself?
Wow not to be frightened to be racist by being antisemitic?
And you were just banging on about racism on the other thread, worst hypocrisy ever

Rabbi Josef Antebi exposing Zionists, even after being tortured by them!

Many, many Jews hate what Israel are doing and are prepared to stand up and say why, good on them. In Israel they are beaten up for saying so.

Sassy wrote:Many, many Jews hate what Israel are doing and are prepared to stand up and say why, good on them.   In Israel they are beaten up for saying so.

Incorrect, 95% support the offensive to take out the extremists

exactly what Israelis have said about Palestinians.

Sassy wrote:exactly what Israelis have said about Palestinians.

These are Hamas officials, Israeli officials have not said the same, they have called to eradicate extremists, unless you think extremists are fine to commit terrorism, I see no wrong in that, I have countless more to prove Hamas want nothing more to exterminate the Jews, proving you back extremists.

Sadly you will never learn.

Israeli Politician Calls For Genocide Of Palestinians



Published on 10 Jul 2014

Just a day before Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khudair was kidnapped and burned alive (allegedly by six Israeli Jewish youths), Israeli lawmaker Ayelet Shaked took to Facebook to call for genocide of the Palestinians people.

It was a bloodthirsty statement of intent, declaring "the entire Palestinian people is the enemy" and calling for their total destruction, "including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure." She calls for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to "little snakes."

Wow, you have one, who is wrong to say so.





As seen it is part of their charter and they will not remove it.

Yea Didge, but who is killing women and children? Who is targetting the electricity station so they can't have electricity. Who has targetted the water system so they have no clean water? Who has targetting the sewage system so that doesn't work and they will have more health problems? Who have blown up the hospitals? Who has targetted the farms so they can't grow food? Who stops them getting the basics into their own country? Tommy talks about the fishing boats smuggling. You can't smuggle on your own boats into your own land.

Who has all the fire power? Who has the arms that are supposed to be able to pinpoint but still blow up schools? Who has knocked down legally owned houses and build their own on top? Who takes legally owned farms and throws the farmers off?

And you wonder why they are hated.

Sassy wrote:Yea Didge, but who is killing women and children?   Who is targetting the electricity station so they can't have electricity.   Who has targetted the water system so they have no clean water?   Who has targetting the sewage system so that doesn't work and they will have more health problems?   Who have blown up the hospitals?  Who has targetted the farms so they can't grow food?   Who stops them getting the basics into their own country?   Tommy talks about the fishing boats smuggling.   You can't smuggle on your own boats into your own land.

Who has all the fire power?   Who has the arms that are supposed to be able to pinpoint but still blow up schools?   Who has knocked down legally owned houses and build their own on top?   Who takes legally owned farms and throws the farmers off?

And you wonder why they are hated.

Hamas are Stassi:

War Crimes in Khuza’a, Gaza: Israel Used Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields

Earlier this month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly asked the U.S. for help in combatting charges of war crimes committed over the last month in Gaza. He will definitely need it.

In recent days, well-documented accounts of war crimes have poured out of the Gaza Strip from journalists and human rights advocates. Some of these stories will likely be followed up on by the United Nations team that has been tasked with investigating war crimes in the Gaza Strip.

Many of these accounts have focused on Khuza’a, a village near Khan Younis that was the site of intensive Israeli bombardment in late July. Khuza’a is near Gaza’s border with Israel, and Israeli forces battled Palestinian fighters there. By manyaccounts from Palestinians and journalists, the village suffered from indiscriminate shelling and firing, leading to the deaths of many Palestinian civilians. There are also reports that Israeli soldiers shot unarmed civilians at point-blank range. (Mondoweiss printed accounts from Palestinians on the apparent massacre in Khuza’a here, here and here.)

Daily Beast’s reporter Jesse Rosenfeld was among the first to document with his own eyes what look like blatant war crimes in the village. On August 1, he published a harrowing account of a mass execution in the village. What was left in the village, Rosenfeld wrote, is “rubble, bombed-out buildings and the all-encompassing, sickening smell of death.” Rosenfeld broke the story of how there were at least six rotting, dead bodies piled together in a small home. He’s careful not to assign blame, but he does report that “the house is filled with casings from the bullets used in assault rifles. They are marked on the bottom as ‘IMI’ (Israel Military Industries).”

Human Rights Watch added their own report three days later. The human rights organization said that Israeli soldiers shot and killed civilians who were fleeing Khuza’a, which is a blatant violation of international law. On July 23, for instance, Israeli soldiers ordered about 100 Palestinians to leave a residence they had gathered in for shelter. When Shahid al-Najjar left the residence, he was shot in the jaw by an Israeli soldier. Then, Human Rights Watch reported, soldiers detained all of the males over the age of 15. They brought some of the detainees into Israel for interrogation. The Israeli forces let some of them go, but fired on one unarmed group while they were walking to Khan Younis, killing one Palestinian and wounding two others.

But perhaps the most disturbing documentation of war crimes was published by the Euro-Mid Observer for Human Rights. (The Electronic Intifada’s Rania Khalek covered the report here.) In Euro-Mid’s August 10th release, the group relayed Palestinian accounts of being used as human shields–a particularly important charge given that Israeli officials have repeatedly accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields with no evidence.

Ramadan Muhammad Qadeeh said that on July 25th, Israeli soldiers raided his home in the village. They killed his 65-year-old father at point-blank range after he tried to tell the soldiers they were just civilians. Then, Qadeeh said, “they ordered us to take off our clothes and tied our hands up. They took us to one of the rooms and used us as shields, making us stand at the windows as if we were looking outside…I was at one window and three children from my family at another. The soldiers then began firing around us.” There are many detailed accounts of how Israel has used Palestinian civilians as human shields during past military operations in Gaza.

The Palestinian journalist Mohammed Omer also reported on apparent war crimes in Khuza’a for the Middle East Eye. Omer wrote on how the Qudeh family was sheltering in their home on July 25 when an Israeli army-operated bulldozer crashed into the home and then soldiers entered the residence. 64-year-old Mohammed Tawfiq Qudeh went to talk with the soldiers while waving a white flag. But as witnesses told Omer, an Israeli soldier shot and killed him.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-crimes-in-khuzaa-gaza-pile-up-israel-used-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/5396095

And we are back to Stassi spamming articles.

Let me know when you want to counter all my points you have left unanswered.

Good luck

::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Bloody hilarious!

Go and join the IDF you muppett.

I have no need to join anything, I just love showing up your ignorance Stassi. hence why you can never refute my points ha ha

Hamas's 10 points for a cease fire, all completely reasonable.

You omitted the main part of their charter, the destruction of Israel.

One of the things I always reckoned when negotiating something: Know who has the power.

Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

Original Quill wrote:One of the things I always reckoned when negotiating something: Know who has the power.

Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

You are disgusting slimeball blowhard. How about, know who is committing the atrocities and stand up to it.

Original Quill wrote:One of the things I always reckoned when negotiating something: Know who has the power.

Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

That's a bit off Quill??

Sassy wrote:

Original Quill wrote:One of the things I always reckoned when negotiating something: Know who has the power.

Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

You are disgusting slimeball blowhard.   How about, know who is committing the atrocities and stand up to it.

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war. Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.   

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:One of the things I always reckoned when negotiating something: Know who has the power.

Israel doesn't need to do a thing.

That's a bit off Quill??

Off of what? We are talking about Israel and Gaza, are we not?

My point is that before you list demands, have some strengths.

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:You don't want this conflict to stop, do you Irn?  You want it to go on.  Is this some sort of career for you?  Are book sales a little off?

Oh, I don't mean this local event started by Hamas.  I mean the whole past 60-70 years.  What do you think is going to happen?

Iran and the Islamic community of nations will continue to harass Israel with missiles, and the occasional terrorist bombing or shooting, not to mention the mini-wars..  Israel will systematically crush the conflicts and tighten its grip.  The world will weep and moan, and do nothing.  

GWB, the Republican Neo-Cons and the puppy dog British, have assured that the world community is too cowed to do anything.  Who wants another 10-year war that accomplishes nothing except a $17-trillion debt?

I'm almost to the point where I don't care.  The sooner Iran and Israel get at it, the sooner it will be all over.  Fun to watch, I guess.  But hardly more important than that as long as the participants don't want anything more themselves.

No-one on here wants the conflict to go on but I see that the penny has dropped now and you're getting to the heart of the matter which is the continued occupation that has been going on and which Israel has been expanding over the last 50 years or so. That's what I was focusing on whilst you were beating the drum continuously about Hamas who exist primarily because of that.

If you think that Iran and Israel getting it on would be fun to watch then you seriously need some help. Just nip down to the Southern tip of Israel and grab yourself a seat and you can watch and cheer as the missiles fly in. It's the latest cinema entertainment down there.

Yes, I do want to get to the heart of the matter.  So let’s start with core premises: (1) Islamic nations want Israel to disappear; and (2) Israel is stronger than the Islamic nations, soooo…it’s not going to happen with just military action.

That leaves us with other games.  Let's rewind a bit, and pick up some other strands of the story.

1.  Occupation.  In 1967, Syrian artillery attacks against Israeli civilian settlements in the vicinity of the border were followed by Israeli responses against Syrian positions in the Golan Heights and encroachments of increasing intensity and frequency into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border, and culminating in Egypt blocking the Straits pf Tiran, deploying its troops near Israel's border, and ordering the evacuation of the U.N. buffer force from the Sinai Peninsula.  This is known as the six-day war.  Within six days, Israel had won decisively.  Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

In the wake of this war, Israel generously gave back the Sinai Peninsula, and later Gaza, proving that Israel’s sole concern was for its own military defense.  Gaza and the Sinai were territories that were not strategic militarily for Israel.  

2.  Terrorism.  Islamic states start a series of actions known as terrorism, which are actually acts of shocking destruction and loss of lives, designed to publicize their situation—ie, they want Israel to disappear; but Israel is just too strong.  The acts of terrorism attracted world-wide attention, including short-sighted peoples of Britain, Australia and the Commonwealth, already influenced by the anti-semitic leanings of Europe.  The reaction was two-sided: not a good idea to explode two towers in NYC or a bus in London; but great for pictures of dead women and children, publicizing the retaliation of Israel.  This, logically, presented an epiphany to the Islamic nations: there is real currency in public relations of death, particularly in photographs of dead women and children.

3.  Gaza.  Gaza is one of the territories generously given back to the Palestinian people by Israel.  She was handed over with no strings attached, to the Palestinians.  It was the beginning of a two-state solution.  The Palestinians, however, short-sightedly elected a terrorist organization run by the Iranian government, known as Hamas, for its own government.  This led directly to the divorce of authority from consequences.

4. Public Relations Terrorism. We now come down to a unique type of demonstration taking shape in Gaza.  Tehran, now ruling Gaza, commenced to fire off missiles at Israel.  (To date, they have fired off between 1,300 to 1,400 missiles.)  This of course, being an act of war, provoked retaliation.  

The epiphany, shaped and polished, consists of Islamic aggression, provoking Israeli retaliation, before which Tehran places women and children (not from Tehran) in order to maximize the publicity effect. In this effort, Tehran has already placed missile sites (the targets of Israel) in churches, mosques, hotels, schools, hospitals and markets —all places of high density population, so that civilians (not from Tehran) would be sacrificed in the new front of public relations by death.

We are met on a battlefield of that front.  I think I have given enough of the grand picture to refocus our attention on the real game being played.  The only way to handle this is to bring the battle home: Tehran and Jerusalem.  Let’s dispense with these sideshows and get the main feature started.

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:

You are disgusting slimeball blowhard.   How about, know who is committing the atrocities and stand up to it.

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

Excellent point but are the British called Nazi's for this?


Nope, hence the hypocrisy and there is even a memorial to Bomber Harris, the master mind behind this.
Itis the most redundant argument used by some here, which as seen I have already said to scrat. As it is dependent on who does the bombing is where condemnation is, whilst ignoring 10,000 times fold worse military actions. Seriously, does anyone know here the Plans by Harris on targeting civilians and thus by Scrats logic is he a Nazi?

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

Excellent point but are the British called Nazi's for this?


Nope, hence the hypocrisy and there is even a memorial to Bomber Harris, the master mind behind this.
Itis the most redundant argument used by some here, which as seen I have already said to scrat. As it is dependent on who does the bombing is where condemnation is, whilst ignoring 10,000 times fold worse military actions. Seriously, does anyone know here the Plans by Harris on targeting civilians and thus by Scrats logic is he a Nazi?

It is what it is, Didge. I didn't want to engage in a history debate, so much as to point out the war is war. Complaining about atrocities in a war Hamas/Gaza started is a bit hypocritical.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:




Excellent point but are the British called Nazi's for this?


Nope, hence the hypocrisy and there is even a memorial to Bomber Harris, the master mind behind this.
Itis the most redundant argument used by some here, which as seen I have already said to scrat. As it is dependent on who does the bombing is where condemnation is, whilst ignoring 10,000 times fold worse military actions. Seriously, does anyone know here the Plans by Harris on targeting civilians and thus by Scrats logic is he a Nazi?

It is what it is, Didge.  I didn't want to engage in a history debate, so much as to point out the war is war.  Complaining about atrocities in a war Hamas/Gaza started is a bit hypocritical.

100% correct, as i stated it is always about who is of one side that people do not like, when you expose people to history, as we have done, they fall silent, odd that eh.


By the by, just read a new book on Henry V, you should read it mate, very interesting, "Henry V year of glory"
Trust me, you will love it

I will ask the library to stock it so I can look at it. Thx.

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:

You are disgusting slimeball blowhard.   How about, know who is committing the atrocities and stand up to it.

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

I find that trying to compare the "piss ant" state of Israel with the British Empire somewhat comical.

I realise that some antipodeans and a few of our brothers across the pond struggle with this concept, but if it was not for the British people and their courage, you lot would be part of the Japanese empire and bleating in either German, Italian or Japanese.

Fuck Dresden, a job well done.

Original Quill wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:You don't want this conflict to stop, do you Irn?  You want it to go on.  Is this some sort of career for you?  Are book sales a little off?

Oh, I don't mean this local event started by Hamas.  I mean the whole past 60-70 years.  What do you think is going to happen?

Iran and the Islamic community of nations will continue to harass Israel with missiles, and the occasional terrorist bombing or shooting, not to mention the mini-wars..  Israel will systematically crush the conflicts and tighten its grip.  The world will weep and moan, and do nothing.  

GWB, the Republican Neo-Cons and the puppy dog British, have assured that the world community is too cowed to do anything.  Who wants another 10-year war that accomplishes nothing except a $17-trillion debt?

I'm almost to the point where I don't care.  The sooner Iran and Israel get at it, the sooner it will be all over.  Fun to watch, I guess.  But hardly more important than that as long as the participants don't want anything more themselves.

No-one on here wants the conflict to go on but I see that the penny has dropped now and you're getting to the heart of the matter which is the continued occupation that has been going on and which Israel has been expanding over the last 50 years or so. That's what I was focusing on whilst you were beating the drum continuously about Hamas who exist primarily because of that.

If you think that Iran and Israel getting it on would be fun to watch then you seriously need some help. Just nip down to the Southern tip of Israel and grab yourself a seat and you can watch and cheer as the missiles fly in. It's the latest cinema entertainment down there.

Yes, I do want to get to the heart of the matter.  So let’s start with core premises: (1) Islamic nations want Israel to disappear; and (2) Israel is stronger than the Islamic nations, soooo…it’s not going to happen with just military action.

That leaves us with other games.  Let's rewind a bit, and pick up some other strands of the story.

1.  Occupation.  In 1967, Syrian artillery attacks against Israeli civilian settlements in the vicinity of the border were followed by Israeli responses against Syrian positions in the Golan Heights and encroachments of increasing intensity and frequency into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border, and culminating in Egypt blocking the Straits pf Tiran, deploying its troops near Israel's border, and ordering the evacuation of the U.N. buffer force from the Sinai Peninsula.  This is known as the six-day war.  Within six days, Israel had won decisively.  Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

In the wake of this war, Israel generously gave back the Sinai Peninsula, and later Gaza, proving that Israel’s sole concern was for its own military defense.  Gaza and the Sinai were territories that were not strategic militarily for Israel.  

2.  Terrorism.  Islamic states start a series of actions known as terrorism, which are actually acts of shocking destruction and loss of lives, designed to publicize their situation—ie, they want Israel to disappear; but Israel is just too strong.  The acts of terrorism attracted world-wide attention, including short-sighted peoples of Britain, Australia and the Commonwealth, already influenced by the anti-semitic leanings of Europe.  The reaction was two-sided: not a good idea to explode two towers in NYC or a bus in London; but great for pictures of dead women and children, publicizing the retaliation of Israel.  This, logically, presented an epiphany to the Islamic nations: there is real currency in public relations of death, particularly in photographs of dead women and children.

3.  Gaza.  Gaza is one of the territories generously given back to the Palestinian people by Israel.  She was handed over with no strings attached, to the Palestinians.  It was the beginning of a two-state solution.  The Palestinians, however, short-sightedly elected a terrorist organization run by the Iranian government, known as Hamas, for its own government.  This led directly to the divorce of authority from consequences.

4.  Public Relations Terrorism.  We now come down to a unique type of demonstration taking shape in Gaza.  Tehran, now ruling Gaza, commenced to fire off missiles at Israel.  (To date, they have fired off between 1,300 to 1,400 missiles.)  This of course, being an act of war, provoked retaliation.  

The epiphany, shaped and polished, consists of Islamic aggression, provoking Israeli retaliation, before which Tehran places women and children (not from Tehran) in order to maximize the publicity effect. In this effort, Tehran has already placed missile sites (the targets of Israel) in churches, mosques, hotels, schools, hospitals and markets —all places of high density population, so that civilians (not from Tehran) would be sacrificed in the new front of public relations by death.

We are met on a battlefield of that front.  I think I have given enough of the grand picture to refocus our attention on the real game being played.  The only way to handle this is to bring the battle home: Tehran and Jerusalem.  Let’s dispense with these sideshows and get the main feature started.

Well it took you long enough to get there because for the most part you have been banging on about Israel/Hamas whilst I was talking about the occupation resulting from the war that you are talking about now. Just a shame that you have plagiarized someone else' work on the the Occupation part (maybe more) without giving due credit and even worse that you distort it by missing out the very first part which reads...

The Six Day War began on June 5, 1967, with Israel launching surprise strikes against Egyptian air-fields in response to the mobilization of Egyptian forces on the Israeli border. A period of high tension had preceded the war. In response to PLO sabotage acts against Israeli targets,[1][2][3] Israel raided into the Jordanian-controlled West Bank[4][5] and initiated flights over Syria, which ended with aerial clashes over Syrian territory,

That's the part you missed out from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Governorate

What a way to conduct a debate by using the work of someone else and excluding a crucial part of what was actually written just to make it fit your argument.

Tut tut Quill

Didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:


That is not an offensive but the victims of clashes

You really need to do better than that, where is the same in the West bank?

There is none, this is why your arguments always fall flat


It is also a leftie peace of propaganda crap as well which has no comparability to what is going on in Gaza, proving you have no answer to my points

You are not seriously suggesting that the continued occupation of the West Bank and the restrictions imposed by the Israeli’s on the Palestinian people who are living there as well as the removal of many of them to make way for more Israeli settlements  is something that they are happy with and it  is to their benefit are you? The Palestinian populations are living under an illegal military occupation against their will which is enforced by the IDF and many of the population are refugees living in camps. The movements of the Palestinians are restricted and their rights have been eroded by an occupation force and that’s an offensive going on every single day that the Israeli’s stay there and expand even further into the West Bank by building even more settlements.

Just victims of clashes are they?

Yes that is their own doing Irn, they went to war, that is the outcome of starting conflicts and losing wars, where there is 6 decades of continued violence against a people where they fail to recognise a UN rulling.
Seems you are suggesting Israel bends over and takes it up the arse from terrorism and violence, you would not expect the Uk to do so and by thus why would you expect Israel to do so.
The settlements are wrong and you avoid every point I have made, more to the point you avoid Palestinians have been the cause behind constant problems within the region for some time.
I would restrict movement too if there had been so many terrorist attacks and conflicts started over 60 years, maybe you can explain why again it has been the Palestinian people who have not excepted a rulling, where they have committed themselves to constant conflict.
I mean the west has done exactly the same and occupied nations that have started conflicts and have done so for decades and displaced millions of its people and we have had no conflict since from Germany
, are you saying we were wrong to occupy them?
The West Bank has the right approach, Hamas has one of war, where Fatah continue to use peace they will gain support

That is a downright lie because there never was a ratified UN resolution to partition Palestine.

Your even-handed approach to the problems in Palestine were exposed as nonsense with your whimpering response to the statements made by the Israeli minister about concentration camps. That was in complete contrast to you going absolutely ballistic to the point where you were beside yourself and filled with rage and disgust at the Jewish blogger who mentioned concentration camps in his article even though he made clear he was talking about them before they became death camps.

Your mask slipped ages ago when you were shouting it was all lies that Israeli’s were sitting on a hillside overlooking Gaza and were cheering as missiles flew in. The fact that it happened was independently verified by numerous media sources yet there you were denying it all even to the point that you were trying to take credit for it but all it did was show that you were lying when it was all true.

But it's clear now that you actually support the occupation of the West Bank and in doing so you have no thought for around 750,000 refugees who are living in refugee camps in the West Bank with very few resources and not even the basics of anything that men women and children need to survive with some degree of dignity.

This nonsense that the occupation is just a buffer zone to protect Israel from attack is nothing more than lies because if that were the case they would not be populating them and building settlements.

You are no humanitarian.

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yes, I do want to get to the heart of the matter.  So let’s start with core premises: (1) Islamic nations want Israel to disappear; and (2) Israel is stronger than the Islamic nations, soooo…it’s not going to happen with just military action.

That leaves us with other games.  Let's rewind a bit, and pick up some other strands of the story.

1.  Occupation.  In 1967, Syrian artillery attacks against Israeli civilian settlements in the vicinity of the border were followed by Israeli responses against Syrian positions in the Golan Heights and encroachments of increasing intensity and frequency into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border, and culminating in Egypt blocking the Straits pf Tiran, deploying its troops near Israel's border, and ordering the evacuation of the U.N. buffer force from the Sinai Peninsula.  This is known as the six-day war.  Within six days, Israel had won decisively.  Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

In the wake of this war, Israel generously gave back the Sinai Peninsula, and later Gaza, proving that Israel’s sole concern was for its own military defense.  Gaza and the Sinai were territories that were not strategic militarily for Israel.  

2.  Terrorism.  Islamic states start a series of actions known as terrorism, which are actually acts of shocking destruction and loss of lives, designed to publicize their situation—ie, they want Israel to disappear; but Israel is just too strong.  The acts of terrorism attracted world-wide attention, including short-sighted peoples of Britain, Australia and the Commonwealth, already influenced by the anti-semitic leanings of Europe.  The reaction was two-sided: not a good idea to explode two towers in NYC or a bus in London; but great for pictures of dead women and children, publicizing the retaliation of Israel.  This, logically, presented an epiphany to the Islamic nations: there is real currency in public relations of death, particularly in photographs of dead women and children.

3.  Gaza.  Gaza is one of the territories generously given back to the Palestinian people by Israel.  She was handed over with no strings attached, to the Palestinians.  It was the beginning of a two-state solution.  The Palestinians, however, short-sightedly elected a terrorist organization run by the Iranian government, known as Hamas, for its own government.  This led directly to the divorce of authority from consequences.

4.  Public Relations Terrorism.  We now come down to a unique type of demonstration taking shape in Gaza.  Tehran, now ruling Gaza, commenced to fire off missiles at Israel.  (To date, they have fired off between 1,300 to 1,400 missiles.)  This of course, being an act of war, provoked retaliation.  

The epiphany, shaped and polished, consists of Islamic aggression, provoking Israeli retaliation, before which Tehran places women and children (not from Tehran) in order to maximize the publicity effect. In this effort, Tehran has already placed missile sites (the targets of Israel) in churches, mosques, hotels, schools, hospitals and markets —all places of high density population, so that civilians (not from Tehran) would be sacrificed in the new front of public relations by death.

We are met on a battlefield of that front.  I think I have given enough of the grand picture to refocus our attention on the real game being played.  The only way to handle this is to bring the battle home: Tehran and Jerusalem.  Let’s dispense with these sideshows and get the main feature started.

Well it took you long enough to get there because for the most part you have been banging on about Israel/Hamas whilst I was talking about the occupation resulting from the war that you are talking about now. Just a shame that you have plagiarized someone else' work on the the Occupation part (maybe more) without giving due credit and even worse that you distort it by missing out the very first part which reads...

The Six Day War began on June 5, 1967, with Israel launching surprise strikes against Egyptian air-fields in response to the mobilization of Egyptian forces on the Israeli border. A period of high tension had preceded the war. In response to PLO sabotage acts against Israeli targets,[1][2][3] Israel raided into the Jordanian-controlled West Bank[4][5] and initiated flights over Syria, which ended with aerial clashes over Syrian territory,

That's the part you missed out from here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Governorate

What a way to conduct a debate by using the work of someone else and excluding a crucial part of what was actually written just to make it fit your argument.

Tut tut Quill

Aw, poor Irn. That's all? Correct me on Israeli strikes on June 5, 1967? No, the war started with Syrian artillery strikes prior to June 5th. No doubt, you'll say that Israel started the Gaza conflict, notwithstanding 1,300 missiles fired off by Gaza into Israel.

As I recall, this is a bad habit of yours. On the Malaysia Airlines thread, you crowed on and on about how I was a conspiracy theorist, disregarding that I had prefaced everything by saying we had no idea where the aircraft went, so we might as well speculate. Picky, picky, picky...my boy. You played schoolmarm on that thread too, refusing to discuss what could have happened.

Never mind. So you have nothing of substance to add about the Gaza matter? Why do you bother to respond with trivial schoolboy dissections. Or, is this your way out of this difficulty, as well. I think it's important to tell the whole story; you've been telling only half of it all along. Now, that is dishonest, my boy.

Nevertheless, I'm glad we are able to put this extraneous noise about Gaza to rest.

Irn Bru wrote:

Didge wrote:

Yes that is their own doing Irn, they went to war, that is the outcome of starting conflicts and losing wars, where there is 6 decades of continued violence against a people where they fail to recognise a UN rulling.
Seems you are suggesting Israel bends over and takes it up the arse from terrorism and violence, you would not expect the Uk to do so and by thus why would you expect Israel to do so.
The settlements are wrong and you avoid every point I have made, more to the point you avoid Palestinians have been the cause behind constant problems within the region for some time.
I would restrict movement too if there had been so many terrorist attacks and conflicts started over 60 years, maybe you can explain why again it has been the Palestinian people who have not excepted a rulling, where they have committed themselves to constant conflict.
I mean the west has done exactly the same and occupied nations that have started conflicts and have done so for decades and displaced millions of its people and we have had no conflict since from Germany
, are you saying we were wrong to occupy them?
The West Bank has the right approach, Hamas has one of war, where Fatah continue to use peace they will gain support

That is a downright lie because there never was a ratified UN resolution to partition Palestine.

Your even-handed approach to the problems in Palestine were exposed as nonsense with your whimpering response to the statements made by the Israeli minister about concentration camps. That was in complete contrast to you going absolutely ballistic to the point where you were beside yourself and filled with rage and disgust at the Jewish blogger who mentioned concentration camps in his article even though he made clear he was talking about them before they became death camps.

Your mask slipped ages ago when you were shouting it was all lies that Israeli’s were sitting on a hillside overlooking Gaza and were cheering as missiles flew in. The fact that it happened was independently verified by numerous media sources yet there you were denying it all even to the point that you were trying to take credit for it but all it did was show that you were lying when it was all true.

But it's clear now that you actually support the occupation of the West Bank and in doing so you have no thought for around 750,000 refugees who are living in refugee camps in the West Bank with very few resources and not even the basics of anything that men women and children need to survive with some degree of dignity.

This nonsense that the occupation is just a buffer zone to protect Israel from attack is nothing more than lies because if that were the case they would not be populating them and building settlements.

You are no humanitarian.

Hilarious babble again where all he can do is make infantile points about me and nothing to refute my points.
I am glad the world does not listen to fuckwits like you Irn, because if it did we would be under the Nazi jackboot, where you would wave a piece of paper in the hope we would not be attacked and at no point have you ever addressed any of my points, but instead rambled on with more horseshit how you back Hamas and yes you do back Hamas with your arguments as any sane rational person would condemn Hamas and wish they were removed being as their whole policy is the annihilation of Israel and the Jews . Palestine went to war and lost and lost lands, that is their own fuck up and they have to face the consequences of naked aggression which they have continued to do so for 60 years, where no other nations has done so after starting and losing continued conflict.

Israel was created by a UN resolution, and rightly so and you neglect at every turn that not only Palestine but countless other Arab nations have for 60 years not only vowed to wipe out Israel abut enacted aggressive policies in the attempt to do so, where at every turn Israel has battered their arses against all odds also in the first conflict and at every turn, you want to show sympathy to the aggressors for losing conflicts they started, what sort of fucked up idiot are you? That would be like saying to Germany in 1945, do not worry you started a world war and now millions are dead, we are not going to occupy your nation, you are free to be blameless for your actions and that all your lands will be given back to you, that is how daft your argument is. Where is your call for East Prussia to be returned to Germany Irn, or lands lost from Poland, Romania, Italy the list is so long it makes you look an utter idiot and a complete hypocritical infantile fool? 

I also love how you missed out all the fundamental parts of where Palestine, has since and before Israel's creation never accepting this, even though other nations have had to and have constantly gone to war and attacked them, showing the fact they stupidly went to war and lost, not once but many times, where in between they have always committed terrorism. You also miss out the fact that 600,000 to 800,000 Jews were displaced from Arab lands for no crime, but because Israel won against all odds against countless Arab nations attacking them, not accepting the UN resolution, of course you are quite on this and the fact displaced Palestinians were fundamental in starting the Lebanese civil war, where one million Lebanese were displaced let alone how many thousands died, all facts you are silent on, which is no surprise, of course we see you protesting for the Lebanese and Jews to get their lands and property back?
Nope, showing your complete hypocrisy, because as Palestinian have been the cause of many problems and conflicts all because they went to war and lost, again it would be like you backing Germany after 1945 to continue aggression for another 60 years with conflict and terrorism, of which rightly they were very much denied to do so by occupation, and OI have never seen you say this occupation was wrong, are you saying it was wrong?

Your pathetic infantile attempts to use guilt in your counters proves you know fuck all about this situation and when you wish to debate this in an adult fashion with an intellectual debate, let me know, instead of the bull you have spouted. So you can continue to spit your commie dummy out all day long, as in every situation Palestine has been the aggressor, of which you refuse to recognize and in every situation Israel has kicked their sorry arse an rightly so. Again you would thus allow a neighbor for 60 years to continue to attack your home and do nothing proving your claims are again nothing but horseshit, when the reality is you would defend your home with all means.

The Palestinian people have elected Hamas, thus they are  accountable to Hamas's war crimes, of which you ignore at every tune, of which I have and have continued to condemn Israel for said war crimes with indiscriminate shelling, you though make no voice of this and continue to be silent on the fact Hamas, previous the PLO etc have been aggressors to Israel . Firing rockets indiscriminately is a war crime, and to claim proportion is utter tripe based on the fact that Israel spends some of its budget on defense, shows it cares for its civilian, where the Iron Dome and bomb shelters ensures comparatively fewer civilian Israeli casualties, where as Hamas uses people as cannon fodder to garner sympathy .

Again firing rockets at a civilian population is by definition a war crime and just because "not as many" Israeli civilians have been killed does nothing to mitigate the fact that firing rockets at civilians is a war crime. You ignore the fact, Hamas hoards illegal weapons in UN schools, especially near refugees, and pretend they are not putting innocent Palestinians in harms way, where again this is a crime against humanity and proves beyond doubt Hamas has no care for the civi;lians of Palestine, where again they build and use money to create tunnels to attack Israel, where you claim these are used to bring in supplies, what a fuckwit you are, yes the supplies are rockets to attack Israel.

Such creations are an aggressive strategy, which at each turn you ignore and then you bemoan Israel's offensive tactics to take them out, where again there would be far less civilian casualties if Palestinians also had bomb shelters provided for them which have never been built, of which again you are silent or use of these tunnels. in fact it is only the military and political wing of Hamas that has access to them  Such crimes do nothing to promote peace and only aggravate an already volatile situation. Hamas must immediately cease such acts, but they have no intention of doing so and continue to place the Palestinian people at risk by using them as cannon fodder to garner world sympathy. All this you ignore at every turn, where I condemn settlements, I back the way the approach of the West Bank which is one of peace. Until Hamas is dismantled and got shot of, I will continue to back the military strategy by Israel against them, as most people with any logical and rational view would when they are confronted by a group, who's intent is the annihilation of Israel.

Your really are fucking clueless and to use your pathetic guilt card tactics, shows what a fucking idiot you really are, as in 2005 when Israel withdrew from Gaza and its settlements, what then happened was that they started to bring in weapons to attack Israel of which no blockade would have been needed but had to be to counter an aggressive stance from Gaza, again which you constantly ignore, it seems you wish to back naked aggression and ignore all the facts. Peace will come with a more liberal Israeli government and when Hamas is removed and Gaza demilitarizes and shows it wishes to go down the road of peace, as in 60 years it never has, yet you expect Israel to bend over and just take it up the arse.

scrat wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

I find that trying to compare the "piss ant" state of Israel with the British Empire somewhat comical.

I realise that some antipodeans and a few of our brothers across the pond struggle with this concept, but if it was not for the British people and their courage, you lot would be part of the Japanese empire and bleating in either German, Italian or Japanese.

Fuck Dresden, a job well done.

And if it wasn't for your brothers across the pond, Britain would have been the first European nation to lose a war to a petite South American dictatorship.

And don't get me started about Japan.  While you guys turned tail and ran, we sank half of the Japanese Naval Air Fleet within six months after Pearl Harbor (ie, Battle of Midway).  While you guys left Australia swinging on a rope, our 5th-Fleet turned back the Japanese in the Solomon Islands and saved OZ by taking Henderson Field, at Guadalcanal, giving us air cover protection across the whole northern half of OZ.

I do like your sentiment about Dresden, tho.  It's the Israeli solution, as long as Hamas wants to bend over and take it.

Original Quill wrote:

scrat wrote:
I find that trying to compare the "piss ant" state of Israel with the British Empire somewhat comical.

I realise that some antipodeans and a few of our brothers across the pond struggle with this concept, but if it was not for the British people and their courage, you lot would be part of the Japanese empire and bleating in either German, Italian or Japanese.

Fuck Dresden, a job well done.

And if it wasn't for your brothers across the pond, Britain would have been the first European nation to lose a war to a petite South American dictatorship.

And don't get me started about Japan.  While you guys turned tail and ran, we sank half of the Japanese Naval Air Fleet within six months after Pearl Harbor (ie, Battle of Midway).  While you guys left Australia swinging on a rope, our 5th-Fleet turned back the Japanese in the Solomon Islands and saved OZ by taking Henderson Field, at Guadalcanal, giving us air cover protection across the whole northern half of OZ.

I do like your sentiment about Dresden, tho.  It's the Israeli solution, as long as Hamas wants to bend over and take it.

Dresden moots his whole argument, as seen he states a job well done, where over a hundred thousand innocent civilians died in one night, many incinerated and he then claims genocide over civilian deaths in Gaza, which is brought about by Hamas policies, it shows he neglects all facts and is very hypocritical.

Do not be too quick to diminish though the British part in the conflict in the Pacific though Quill, which without the British and its Empire, the USA would have struggled badly without their support. The US was lucky at the battle of Midway, more to the point Yamamoto was a very poor Commander, who should have used his whole fleet which would have been 9 aircraft carriers against four, which if he had, the Americans would have been easily defeated. Pearl harbour was a massive tactical blunder by the Japanese, which only came off the back of the success of the Germans, which if they had waited only a few more weeks, with the Russian counter offensive, they would no doubt have never made the attack at all, being as their plan was to not engage in a war with the US until 1946. They were over confident based on Germany's success. Pearl Harbour was a poor attack, because the harbour being so shallow enabled the US to all but one of the warships refit them into service. It was a massive blunder, even more so choosing to attack on a Sunday when most of the Navy personnel were not on board the ships, who were instrumental in helping training up the USA Navy afterwards to the effective force it became.

Of course the Japanese would have lost in the end, but the fact is the British helped tie up countless Japanese troops within different areas within Asia. The yanks took a battering also in the early stages and made a a poor tactical choice to retake the Philippines, which cost countless unnecessary lives both military and civilian when it should have been a policy to to take out Formosa, then Japan itself. The reality is it was the US Submarine effort that really crippled Japan, where it effectively took out its lifeline of supplies and resources, which Japan had made little effort to advance their technology on countering the submarine threat. To say the British turned tail and ran is also bollocks mate, as they dug in, where many Empire troops were called upon to stem the advance of the Japanese.

To claim we would have lost the Falklands is also very poor, Britain regain them mainly on their own, with blood and guts. Sorry but the US troops of today are nothing more than borrowing the British methods of training at which we excel at. What the US has always had is quantity and weaponry, but not skill, they had to learn that from the British. The British showed how to win conflicts in the far east after WW2, the Yanks, took no heed how the British won over hearts and minds, the Yanks as usual went in gun ho and paid the price for doing so. They failed to take a leaf out of the book of the British, only after the Iranian siege did they learn to start taking advice from the best trained troops in the world, as your US special forces are modeled on the British ones, in fact many forces world wide are, showing how the British special forces are the elite of the elite, because quality does not come in numbers but being able to select and recruit the best.

Original Quill wrote:

Sassy wrote:

You are disgusting slimeball blowhard.   How about, know who is committing the atrocities and stand up to it.

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

“Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.”

RAF January 1945

Britain had already endured three years of blitzkrieg, doodlebugs and incendiaries before you septic tanks appeared, although you were pretty sharp in landing your lend lease salesmen here.

Good morning Folks.

Having read many of Quills posts about the British one thing is for sure....He's very jealous of the British.

scrat wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's not about me, sassy.

As far as atrocities are concerned, it's a war.  Look what you guys did to Dresden.



Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.    

“Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.”

RAF January 1945

Britain had already endured three years of blitzkrieg, doodlebugs and incendiaries before you septic tanks appeared, although you were pretty sharp in landing your lend lease salesmen here.

Oh dear you really have dug yourself an even bigger hole, as using your logic, Israel ha endured 60 years of bombing, war and terrorism from Palestine, thus by your logic it has every right then to bomb Palestine.




In the 1930s, both the United States and Britain refrained from targeting civilians in wartime bombings regarding such actions as savage and ruthless. Indeed, before the war began, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain made a parliamentary speech declaring that it was “against international law to bomb civilians as such and to make deliberate attacks on the civilian population.” The American State Department made a similar statement in 1937 condemning the Japanese bombing of Chinese cities, “Any general bombing of an extensive area wherein there resides a large population engaged in peaceful pursuits is unwarranted and contrary to the principles of law and humanity.”President Franklin Roosevelt spoke to the issue as well calling civilian bombing “inhuman barbarism.”

But the onset of World War II began the transition away from these earlier beliefs. The movement was first initiated by Winston Churchill and the British government in response to Germany’s dropping of bombs on London.It was at this point when Churchill articulated the need for an “absolutely devastating exterminating attack by very heavy bombers from this country upon the Nazi homeland.” Also pushing Britain toward this change in policy was the fact that military officials began to realize that the bombs being dropped from aircrafts were not accurate enough to destroy specific targets (i.e. bases, factories), and thus a more effective use of these bombs would be to direct them at cities where there destruction would have more severe effects

http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects/firebombing/targeting-civilians.htm



So Scrat where you ran away yesterday failing to answer, by your logic, are you calling Churchill and the British Nazi's?

Take your time

Didglet chap, only two complete fucking idiots would try to associate Dresden with Gaza, but then you and Quim are both anti British, and apart from the fact that your bleatings on this matter are an insult to our war dead, you've attempted this rearrangement of our glorious history to defend nothing but savage nazi Jews.

Next time one of you fuckwits will arrive on here with a picture of Hiroshima and blame that on the British.

World wars are the defence of mankind's very existence and freedom.

The war in Palestine is nothing but greedy Zionist pigs, nazi Jews land-grabbing and savage nazi Jews hell bent on murdering, stealing and committing wholesale genocide on the unarmed civilians of Palestine, and that's why Netanazi, (the subject of this thread) is bracing himself for a war crimes tribunal.

I don't think I've ever seen something so pathetic and so dishonest in my time on these boards, but then savage nazi Jews will say anything to defend its lies and it's still early days yet.

scrat wrote:Didglet chap, only two complete fucking idiots would try to associate Dresden with Gaza, but then you and Quim are both anti British, and apart from the fact that your bleatings on this matter are an insult to our war dead, you've attempted this rearrangement of our glorious history to defend nothing but savage nazi Jews.

Next time one of you fuckwits will arrive on here with a picture of Hiroshima and blame that on the British.

World wars are the defence of mankind's very existence and freedom.

The war in Palestine is nothing but greedy Zionist pigs, nazi Jews land-grabbing and savage nazi Jews hell bent on murdering, stealing and committing wholesale genocide on the unarmed civilians of Palestine, and that's why Netanazi, (the subject of this thread) is bracing himself for a war crimes tribunal.

I don't think I've ever seen something so pathetic and so dishonest in my time on these boards, but then savage nazi Jews will say anything to defend its lies and it's still early days yet.

Oh here we go again with more raving loony tunes as I am not the one claiming anyone is Nazis, which is why you are such a fucking moron as seen. You associate bombing in Gaza as genocide, thus using "your" logic, "You" thus class the British and Churchill as a Nazi, as the bombing campaign was targeted against civilians, thus it is "you" which your left wing ignorance that is insulting the allies war dead. You made yourself a hole you fuckwit and as seen I am making you look a right tit, of which you are unable to get out of. So I am doing nothing with our history as I am not slating the bombing campaign, that is you and because you associate one with genocide, then you have to associate all and if you call one set of people doing this Nazis, then you have to call everyone else the same by your idiotic association.

So not only do you call the British Nazi's but also Churchill dear little boy scrat, what a traitorous worm you really are, best you go bleating off back down your hole where you belong.. Not only that, Hitler would have been proud of your antisemitism, he would have no doubt made you a camp commander